View Full Version : ATVCCS Suggested Changes for 2009

Shawn Hess
12-22-2008, 04:53 PM
This is a list of suggested changes that I sent to David. He has already changed a few things.

What does everyone think about the rest?

ATVCCS Summary of Suggestions for 2009
1. Classes:

A Program
Pro, Pro-Am, Int. A, 35+ Int., Novice A

B Program
Expert B, Int. B, Novice B, Junior B, 30+ B, 40+ B, Stock, Utility

C Program
Lady Open, Masters, Lady 30+, Youth C

Pee Wee
7, 10, Modified

2. Pro Class:
$50 entry fee includes $10 competition fee, Pays out $40 per entry
This class is for points and money. It is open to both 2 & 4 strokes. Any displacement size is permissible. Riders who race on the Expert level will race this class. Riders must be at least 16 years old to race in this class. The Race Promoter will determine which racers MUST enter the Open Pro class. This class pays back 100% of the total entries in the class. However if there are less than 3 entries this class will become a nonpaying class and will be racing for points only. The race promoter/official has the right to make decisions regarding a rider’s ability to compete in this class on a case-by-case basis. In order to move up to this class, the race promoter/official will have the current expert class vote on who they feel is ready to move into this class. The majority vote will decide. The race promoter/official will have final veto. If you run this class, the ONLY other classes you can run are the Pro- Am and Utility classes.

Pay Out:
1-2 Racers Points only no money
3 Racers Pays 1st (67%) and 2nd (33%)
4 Racers Pays 1st (56%), 2nd (31%), and 3rd (13%)
5 Racers Pays 1st (50%), 2nd (30%), and 3rd (20%)
6 or More Racers Pays 1st (46%), 2nd (29%), 3rd (17%), and 4th (8%)

3. Open Int.:
Last year the Open Int. class was created for the riders graduating from the B class. Eliminate the Novice A class, and let the Open Int. class do its job. Create a Pro- Am class to give a stepping stone for the racers to transition from Open A to the Pro class.

4. Class Names:
Change the class names so that there is a transition from one to the next. See classes above. People will automatically transition themselves.

5. B Graduates:
The graduates from B class need to be decided by their times compared to the A program not the B program. This would only graduate 5- 10 racers per year who are actually ready to race in the A program. The way it is currently decided discourages the racers when they get into the A program.

6. Buddy Race:
Let’s create a buddy race class that races on Saturday where racers draw each race for a partner and points are given to each rider individually, and at the end of the year or season an award is given to the 2 guys with the most points as the buddy race champions. This would be fun, and a great way for you to make extra money! We can discuss the entry fee. This should cost $30-$40 per team with only a first place plague to be given per race. (Gold Rush and River Front GP buddy race is the biggest class of the weekend and the Arkansas series is working on creating a class like this)

7. A class Plaques:
Make each plaque just like last years end of the year awards with each riders own picture a small trophy on the plaque and each race and a place for them to put how they finished below the race. You could charge $20 at the beginning of the season for this and if it was nice they would be glad to pay it. The plaque would be something to show off and be proud of instead of stacking the plaques in the corner because you have no room to put them on your wall. Similar to last year but something a little nicer and more personalized.

8. Award Presentation/ Podium:
We have to get a podium made for the racers to stand on when getting their awards. This is something that is so simple to do, and gives the racers a ton of satisfaction. It makes them want to keep winning and others to keep racing for the opportunity to make it to the podium. This is fun!!! This also helps get series sponsors when you show them a picture of something like this with their banner in the background.

9. Champions:
Champions should be allowed to stay one extra year to defend their championship in their class as long as they don’t meet the new criteria for being bumped. Meaning their times are not comparable to the A program.

10. Tracks:
The tracks are so much better when you are involved in laying them out. The land owners make them way too easy, and don’t know what they are doing. This also shows everyone that you are putting in more effort for the series to make it better for the racers and encourages the racers to do the same.

11. Practice:
Eliminate practice on Friday. Saves track for the races.

12. Promotion:
The 2009 season will be the toughest for ATVCCS. We all have to do things to encourage more people to attend. We have to do things to make it more worthwhile to make racers show up. People love Give-A-Ways, and building a Podium will assist us in this effort. Not one of us wants the series to die!

Let me know your thoughts. If you have more suggestions let me know.

12-22-2008, 08:40 PM
Shawn I never did actually meet you this past season, but I know you by your reputation and your quad. This past season was my first in an XC series and I learned allot in the B program, not enough to be truely competitive, but I'm getting there. I have been on David for several months now about starting a forum on his website and a picture gallery we can upload race pics and vids to. I finally got tired of talking and asked the webmaster here to add our series and they happily complied. I think it would help get the word out and promote the series all by itself. I think if you look like a professional series on the web then we'll get more racers.

I like most of your proposals and notice that some of them have been added to the new rules. I like your classes and it makes sense to promote racers based on the A program lap times, I'd support that.

I have a daughter that races a 90cc Typhoon 4 stroke. I wanted to see something in the rules to level the field for the mini 4 stroke machines, there's no way that stock for stock my daughter's 90cc is gonna hang with a 70cc 2 stroke quad of any make, no matter rider skill. I was hoping David would let me put a pipe and bigger carb with air box mods on the 4 stroke minis, but didn't get it.

I do like the longer race time of the B program for next season. I hope to someday go run a GNCC race and the morning program runs 2 hours I believe.

Hey Shawn, are you planning on running the Sundowner? We gotta get that promoted better if we can. I don't want to see it fail. I talked to David about an endurance race a couple months ago and am happy to see it happen. I'm looking for a team mate or two, but haven't found any yet. I have a buddy that races dirt bikes and we were gonna team, but the 10 hour time scared him off.

I like the idea of the racers having more of a hand in the race courses, but it's all I can do to get to the races on time with all my crap most race weekends. I wouldn't have a problem helping now and again if someone needed me to pitch-in on a Friday, they'd just have to ask a week or so in advance so I can take off work.

Maybe we can get more racers up on this forum and talking so our series won't die and maybe even improve.


snake eyes
12-23-2008, 05:23 PM
Hey Shawn, I think much of what you suggested is ok. I even sent DC a list of suggestions and classes some of which were quite simular to yours.I know you have a in with the advisory board with Glenn, your father, just like I do with Sarah, my daughter. But, in the short time we have had the advisory board I have learned that no matter how much I lobby Sarah I do not always win my points with Sarah or the board or DC. DC, gets to pick and choose what he thinks is best for ATVCCS since it is his business. I fully support DC and ATVCCS as I know you guys do too and I agree we will need all the support we can get next year.

I think the pro payout(none) may be the biggest sore spot for you. I do not know if the lost leader business theory holds up in a series like this. That is that the pro class with cash payouts draws in more pros and that in turn draws more regular riders. Just don't know about that one but I think we are just going to have to go with DC next year.

Here are a couple of the suggestions I sent him a couple of months ago.
Pro Class : Try going with no payouts at the race but look for a title sponsor for the pro class to contribute a lump sum of money that that would be divided at the end of the year by points earned by the top 5 qualified racers with the champion getting a large sum of bonus points to separate him from the field. ie if the fund was a $1000.00 and total points with champions bonus of the top 5 totaled 500, each point would be worth $2.00; at least it would be something besides a piece wood for you guys.

Awards: Go with medals at the race with plaques given for podium overall finishes in each program. Also go to a single plaque to all classes like the A program did this year. That way every racer could earn a nice series award buy competing in enough races.

What do you think Shawn?

Also, how about just a nice back drop and olympic type steps for the awards presentations with the winners ATV just in front for photos right after the race is over and tabulations are complete. Its a start and a lot easier to transport around.

PS Many thanks for a great track and the work you guys put in at Bulcher this year.


12-23-2008, 06:04 PM
You know when I think about it, I was surprized that there was no podium and no ceremony for the winning riders of each program. I don't think we need to recognize 3 places in every class, but the overall top three from each program should get a nice little ceremony with a podium and photos and everything. Sure helps those guys looking for sponsers too.

Shawn Hess
12-24-2008, 10:31 AM
Mike, I agree with your thoughts as far as the podium goes. Something simple that hauls easy and can fold inside itself.

The Pro class changes do effect me the most, and I have raced in the class for 5 years now and I have seen the changes that have worked and the ones that have not. The class was the largest when the entry fee was $50 and not $70. This hurt the class the most. Prior to this in 2007 we had 7- 10 racers average in the Pro class. I suggested the changed Pro class rules and payout so that it would help the class and allow more riders opportunity to get a payout.

If you think that money doesn't have an effect on trunout then, Why is David advertising $1000 PRO PURSE for his 10hr race? Just let all the teams race for a plaque and see what kind of turnout you have. He is doing this to draw more teams! This is the same thing that happens is a series. I have raced in several series events throughout the years both on quads and dirtbikes, and they all have a pro payout!

The other thing that is never mentioned is all of the things I have done to help David with his series. I have obtained many series sponsors, got numerous prizes for the awards banquets to be given out, and obtain tons of items to be thrown out at his races all for the racers. I have done this on my own good will to help David and the series, and now I am the one who is getting hit the most on his Pro class change so I ask you where is the insentive for me to continue my efforts in helping his series like I have? All I want is the Payout brought back.

This year and last year I compiled a suggestions list composed fro mlistening to series members and what there thoughts were. I typed it up ans showed it ot Larry Gustine, Phil Enis, Rusty Carlock, and my dad Glenn. We all discussed it and changed it a little so that it would be a better benefit for the series and I sent it to David. Why? Because I care about the series! I feel that all of our efforts are short lived because the majority of our ideas get shot down for no reason at all.

This year will be tough! This series is a business and that business needs to realize that its product is suffering real bad, and changing very little will not save it. It will die! The product needs to be restructured and things that were done when it was first being started are going to have to be done again by David if he wants it to survive. I dont want to see it Die I love racing, but something has to be done. GIVE MORE AND TAKE LITTLE should be the motto for this year. I am not against David making money I know he needs to, but he has to go back to some of the things that make the sereis better from his side. I am not attacking David by no means. I am just concerned. This is what some other and I have discussed so I thought I would put it out here.

snake eyes
12-27-2008, 07:48 AM
Shawn, my suggestions to DC came right after the RED RIVER race and it appeared the pro class changes were going to be made. I was just trying to find a way DC could put some money back into the class and could do it at any time with out making official changes. I don't have a problem with your suggestion on the pro class, in fact if race payouts were to be reinstated I would highly recomend your suggestion. Like I said many of my suggestion were not that much deferent from yours. If 100 people sent suggestions to DC they would all be deferent to some degree. Ultimately DC has to choose which if any ATVCCS will adopt.

Shawn & Glenn, I for one and I think most regular racers do realize the effort you guys put in to help the series and any racer that asks for help.

The economy will be the biggest factor this next year or two and how families allocate their recreational resources. We need to make sure every person with an ATV knows what ATVCCS is. It would be great to have 20 racers on the pro line at every race but 10 to 20 racers on every amateur line would be better. Then pro payouts would not even be an issue. You guys would have 100% and maybe more.

Shawn Hess
12-27-2008, 02:38 PM
I agree that DC has to decide which things ATVCCS will adopt, but come on when you have the majority of your Advisory Committee suggesting that you change this or that then you should listen. Thats what the committee was formed for to be the eyes and ears of the series. It just doesn't make sense not to listen to them. These guys and gals were chosen by David and keep the best interest of the series in mind. I would listen.

I cant tell you how many times I have been asked why doesnt ATVCCS do this or that, and all I can say is I wish I knew.

A CEO can run a company into the ground, but its up to the people below him to not let that happen, and thats why the advisory committee strongly suggests the changes.

The biggest thing that I dislike is the negativity that you receive when you suggest things. Its like ATVCCS can't change. Change is bad. In order for the series to be successful it has to be able to evolve.

The other thing I dislike is the land owners laying out the tracks! They make them way too easy! It shouldnt be their job to layout a track. The money they get is for us to use their property and it pays them for the damages. When they have to spend time and money laying out the tracks it reaches the point to where they dont get enough out of it to take care of what we tear up, and this leaves a negative impact on the land owners. Also think about all of the places we dont get to have a race on simply because the land owner doesn't want to have to lay out the track. May of them dont have a clue what we want out of a track which is why we end up having such easy tracks with little woods and tons of wide open straight-a-ways. Fast tracks lead to more injuries. More injuries leads to fewer racers showing up as the season progresses.

If dad and I wouldn't have took it upon ourselves to layout a track at Red River with the help of some other racers that race would never had happened. This makes me wonder how many other places we try to get a race at and never get to? I bet its a lot more than you think. I can not think of another series that atv or dirt bike that the land owner is expected to layout the track.

snake eyes
12-27-2008, 06:10 PM
Shawn, I too have concern about the land owners and continued access to tracks. I have wondered if clubs would start to form and then act as the promoter of races, something like the enduro circuit but I don't think it is going to happen. I know that at least most of the enduro clubs just get the keys to the gate and after the event give a check to the land owner. Been there done that, I worked Pete Storie's section and check for two years way back when Brain was still riding 80cc small wheel. I think who ever is acting as the promoter should lay out the track I just don't know if DC/ ATVCCS has the resources to do it all at this time and a volunteer lay out crew would have issues too. The ATVCCS pie slices are getting a little small. This really is quite a envolved subject when you consider the land itself, manpower resources and track knowledge. There is not a easy solution given the scope of the issue. Shawn, I do agree that all the racers should keep giving input on this subject and others, that is the best way for positive change and continued growth. I hope others will start posting soon too.

Sarah, said she was going to start on the year end video for the banquet tomorrow. So I guess we will all see you guys at the banquet.

12-27-2008, 08:52 PM
Shawn, for the most part I could buy into your sugestions in your first post.

BUT... You can't ever force anyone to race in the pro class. Especially if your going to charge them a higher entry fee to do it. Letting other racers vote you into it is just crazy and honestly, to me anyway, it looks like it only benefits you.

The way I look at it is, have a pro class if you want it, and if anyone wants to pay more to race you in it then have at it.

We have had a pro class since the begining (before you came along) and IMO it hasn't ever been a big draw for the series. I can't tell you one single racer who came to race just because we had a pro class. Sure we have had some folks show up and race in the pro class but do we know that they wouldn't have come and raced anyway?

IMHO - the problems we have had with attendance is more to do with the economy and the price of fuel than any particular change or rule. I know a lot of folks got in a huff when he announced the 101db limit, but that was done to help us get or keep more places to race. I wasn't happy about having to go out and purchae a new pipe but I can understand why we need to move in that direction.

I know you like the tracks more technical but everyone doesn't agree with that. Josh (even back when he was fast) has always prefered, super fast tracks. Not everyone in our series is trying to get ready for a GNCC race.

This series has provided some great times / memories for me and my family and I will always be thankfull for that. I don't know if you would have raced XC somewhere else but it has provided you with a place to start off and for your family to bring in some amount of money (not saying you do it for the money) helping other racers with parts and services. Maybe you guys would be in exactly the same place now without the series but IDK?

I think it is pretty safe to say, nobody has more of an interest in the series prospering than David. It seems like a shame to me that somone got ATVRiders to give the series it's own section and instead of great publicity that could realy grow the series we get this.

Shawn Hess
12-28-2008, 10:33 PM
I was never trying to force anyone into the Pro class. That rule was used as an example of what TQRA has done with their Pro rules. Look it up on their website and that is what it states. They have a credible series so I flet it would be a great example. Do you not agree? Rusty brought it to my attention what they did with their Pro class and rules so I checked it out and put it down as an example. It was merly a way to get DC mind turning about the different options.

Jeff, We are not saying anything bad about the series. We are just discussing things that we would like to see changed, or ideas that would in our minds make things better. For the record before ATVCCS I dabbled around in the OCCRA series, and rode dirt bikes in Enduro events. So I would still be racing with or without ATVCCS. The thing I like most about about discussion forums is the ability to throw ideas or thoughts around and get other peoples opinions. Discussing ideas to make things better doesnt discourage people from showing up. It gives them an idea what things are like before they get to the race.

If you dont race in the Pro class, what concern is it to you? If you are not honestly being effected by the change why would you have anything to be upset about? Its easy to have an opinion or a solution to an issue when you are not effected in any way by the end result. IMO.

It sounds like you are aware of all the different people I am in contact with esp. since you talk of me helping them with bike setup, so when I tell different things on here or send them in as suggestions you should have a real good idea how many people I am in contact with when I talk of suggestions that people would like to see.

Mike, I have thought about a track crew similar to what they do at the GNCC races. Yes I know this is expensive, but just giving you an idea. They run around the track and fill in the ruts so that the tracks can heal, and not continually get chewed out. Other than a trail being left you can not even tell that a race was held on the property. I just think something of this nature would be more encouraging to a land owner to let us come out and race. David has told me of land owners before being really upset that we tore up their property. He has also talked about fixing some of these properties. We just finished filling all of the ruts from the Red River race and removing many of the stumps that became exposed. You can not even tell that we had a race on that property other than the fact that it now has a trail on it. This also made the land owners really happy, and will ensure that we have a nice track to race on later.

Im sure it will all work out in the end. I just hope it does before its too late!

12-29-2008, 09:28 PM
If you dont race in the Pro class, what concern is it to you? If you are not honestly being effected by the change why would you have anything to be upset about? Its easy to have an opinion or a solution to an issue when you are not effected in any way by the end result. IMO.

Shawn if the rule were to go into affect as you suggested it, it very well could end up affecting me as I pay for it all out of my pocket. So if somehow Josh were to be put into the Pro class it could cost me money. I don't know if it ever would but it could.

So with that in mind am I suposed to just not voice my opinion about it and wait untill it is a problem for me or should I let it be known now that I (and others) might have a problem with it the way you laid it out.

Again, I don't have a problem with continuing the Pro class just as it was, if that turns out to be an option. I am just stating an opinion about the rest of the changes to it.

The thing I like most about about discussion forums is the ability to throw ideas or thoughts around and get other peoples opinions. Discussing ideas to make things better doesnt discourage people from showing up. It gives them an idea what things are like before they get to the race.

I agree but your audiance here is not really ATVCCSers. There are probably less than 10 of us on this site and even less that have seen your post. To me the tone of your original post would put the series in a bad light to any prospective new racers that come across it here. Thats the problem, your not reaching the right folks to get the affect that your looking for.

When I have a concern relating to the series (and yes it has happend), I call David and talk to him about it. He has never refused to talk to me and answer any questions I have had. Not always the answer I wanted but I had an answer.

Sometimes I (I am talking about me now, not you) will type out a long post about something and think now here is something that everyone will agree with. Then, and it happens every time, I get suprised when there are replies that don't support me. The Internet is a huge place and pretty much everyone looks at everything from a different point of view.

12-29-2008, 10:40 PM
I think you are misunderstanding how the pro class in TQRA works, so i will explain. No rider can be forced to the pro class!!!When a rider chooses to join the pro class the riders in that class along with the promoter vote to see if they feel the rider is qualified to be there,this is done for there protection as well as the other riders. I hope everyone has a good holiday season and i will see you at the banquet.

Shawn Hess
12-30-2008, 12:31 AM
Jeff I agree with what you say about the internet. It can change the meaning of what you say, and make things sound opposite the way you wanted them.

I would love the Pro class to stay the same as it is other than the new proposed payout structure and the $50 entry fee instead of the $70 fee. This would be better for all those who enter the Pro class.

Carlock, thanks for clearing that up. I must have missed explaining it the way you did to me.

Shawn Hess
12-30-2008, 01:48 PM
I would like to say that forums are simply a place for riders to discuss and run ideas past each other, and see what one anothers thoughts are about issues. We are not on here to attack David or ATVCCS. I really appreciate Davids efforts with the series.

Some people read things on here and interpret them the wrong way when they should be reading them light heartedly. I like to thing that we are all adults on here and can take different issues discussed in a positive way.

I saw an email today that led me to believe this and thats why I am posting this.

Sorry for the offense.

Forms make it easy for riders to talk without having to call, and most of the time we dont have everyones phone numbers.

01-13-2009, 09:45 PM

Shawn Hess
01-15-2009, 11:13 PM
What do you mean by Wow?

Black R/T
04-07-2009, 09:22 AM
is anybody looking at these threads anymore?

04-07-2009, 10:31 AM
i am

Shawn Hess
04-07-2009, 11:15 AM
No, Not since David asked my family not to return to the series. I dont care anymore.

04-07-2009, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by Shawn Hess
No, Not since David asked my family not to return to the series. I dont care anymore.

We talked a little, I'm the white Raptor 700. Gonna miss you man, I liked talking shop with you and your dad. Best of luck wherever ya'll race.

Shawn Hess
04-07-2009, 11:56 AM
Well I am planning to offer a xc riding school and hope that you will attend. It will probably be during the summer break. Please help spread the word. My email is shawn.t.hess@live.com, I hope to get enough responses to have a school. Just have everyone email me if they are interested, and I will work up a price to the school. It will be resonable.

04-07-2009, 08:21 PM
Yeah Shawn I'll plan on being there. Are you thinking on doing some ability group sessions? My 12yo daughter has started racing and could use some instruction from a pro to maximize her potential. She is pretty good now and fearless, all that and 12 too makes a good foundation to make a fast racer if she learns some good habits in the beginning.

Why don't you start a thread on the forums here? Probably not in the ATVCCS section for obvious reasons, but a thread couldn't hurt. Make an electronic flyer and I'll post it up on the other forums I talk on. Or do you have a website that you've already posted on that I could link to?


Shawn Hess
04-07-2009, 09:44 PM
I will start a new thread on here in the ATVCCS section for the Texas group and see what kind of response I get.