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Thread: Have you Decked the cylinder

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    OXFORD, CT
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    1,016
    Those are safe clearances, given the 400EX has sub-rockers to contend with. I wouldn't go less .080" with a hi-rev ignition box though. A good direct acting cam set-up, without rocker arms, can get away with a lot less. I just finished putting in a GTT cam last weekend. As a "quick & dirty" clearance check, I adjusted the valve lash to spec., then individually put a .100" shim in between and slowly turned the motor over (w/o spark plug!). Nothing touched so I got a good feeling that piston to valve clearance would not be a problem. If you ever do it that way, NEVER use a ratchet handle to turn the crank. ALWAYS use a fixed handle, such as a breaker bar and turn the motor very slowly. Sometimes when a valve is closing there is enough pressure to spin the crank with it and a regular ratchet will not offer any resistance. If there's not enough piston/valve clearance you will probably bend a valve! Also check one valve at a time. If any of the valves are canted towards each other (on the big end) they can touch, again resulting in bent parts. It's a relatively easy way to set your mind at ease. BTW, that was with a decked cylinder (piston now even with gasket surface). Also noticed that the Wiseco 440 piston had larger than stock diameter valve notches, so oversize valves wouldn't be a problem either. >>>>>Be careful and check when putting a shim in there, I remembered that I used a Honda car valve stem seal which was much shorter on top than the one Marcum's sells. Don't want anyone to ruin their valve seals.
    Last edited by MIKE400EX; 03-06-2002 at 07:12 AM.
    Mods: Big Gun FS w/MM quiet core, no lid , K&N, FCR41, 11.3:1 440 and Web 479 cam, porting, no choke. Works TRS fronts & Ultracross rear shock, a few other goodies
    450R,250EX, Blaster, Banshee

  2. #32
    Guest
    Cometic base and head gasket ?

    I finally spoke with Cometic and they had offered the following.

    Cometic base gasket @ .010 or .012 v/s .020 stk.
    Cometic head gasket @ .025 v/s .040 stk
    Note: over 12:1 they recomend their .027 w/cyl reinforcing ring to handle the extra forces from the added compression. They also addressed the the issue of the spacing of head bolts being too large and thats why they recomend the .027 w/ higher comp.

    Does anyone know where I will end up if I go with the .010 base and .025 head gaskets. With out any actual measurements and just going with what I have read and heard I think maybe this reduction of .025 should put me damn close to the numbers were looking for.

    I dont know or maybe I should just find someone here in NJ who can deck the head and just use the stk gasket(thickness).

    Also should I just look into a higher comp piston? Like a 12:1 or ?

    And thanks for the cam info.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    OXFORD, CT
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    1,016
    440EX4ME, assuming you have a Wiseco 440 11:1 piston. With a .025 head gasket, the .010 base and w/o decking the cylinder (approx. .033 in the hole) yields 10.0:1 compression. Un-modified head is 38.0 CC. Double check your actual deck height. The sleeves come long on the top step so you have to machine the top flat across. Normally some material is also removed fom the whole top face/deck. Machine the cylinder .030" (piston now down .003) and you will end up w/exactly 11.0:1. Most automotive shops can deck the cylinder. If you make a substantial ring to bolt the cylinder base to, you can use a lathe. A miller will also work if you just bolt the cylinder down. Always use a spacer on the base - never put any force on the sleeve. I checked the head bolt height, it was marginal having decked the cylinder .040". Make sure the head bolts are torqued down properly. Using a flat ground bottom tap would probably reduce the installed head bolt height if you run into a problem. Hope this helps some! You'll be very happy with the results if you take the time to get it all done right. I'm convinced this compression problem is the main reason sooooo many people think a 416 will out perform a similarily equipped 440.
    Mods: Big Gun FS w/MM quiet core, no lid , K&N, FCR41, 11.3:1 440 and Web 479 cam, porting, no choke. Works TRS fronts & Ultracross rear shock, a few other goodies
    450R,250EX, Blaster, Banshee

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Visalia, CA
    Posts
    193
    440EX4ME, unless you really want the Wiseco piston, you may want to wait until my Ross ones arrive. They claim to have 11.2:1 using standard thickness XR gaskets, so milling might not be needed. I'll post the results when I get them.

    Also- call Allen at Advanced Sleeve 440-354-3440 and order their sleeve and gasket kit. The sleeve is only $46.18, and the Cometic gasket set is only $16.00. The gasket set includes a stanless head gasket, fiber base gasket, timing chain tensioner gasket, and 4 o-rings for the cam cover. I'll double check with Cometic, but the compressed thicknesses should be .025 for the head, and .018 for the base. LA Sleeve wants $75 for their sleeve, btw.

  5. #35
    Guest
    I was told by the original owner that the piston is a J&E 11:1 89mm 440.

    Mike I am a little hesitant to use a auto type machine shop as opposed to someone who deals with the motorcycle type al head all the time. Is this thinking right???

    Also am I understanding you correctly that the new sleeve for the larger bore is longer or taller than the cyl section?? could it be slightly into the head when installed and if so by how much?? That does not sound like it should be that way.

    I do not know what exactly was done to this motor but I was told that the cyl sect was originally in a 99 and somehow the last guy pulled the piston and cyl out and swapped it with his brand new 01 motor. They claimed to use gaskets with the stock thickness from Honda. So I do not even know how much time is on the piston and sleeve but would rather keep them than pay for new unless something is worn or maybe for a higher comp set up that would not require so much thought LOL.

    I had to re read both your and matts last posts as I was getting a little mixed up but if I am hearing you right if I have the cylinder decked .030 it will remove the overhang on the sleeve and with the .025 and .010 gasket Iit should be around 10:1 ?

    And after living this 440 ordeal I have to agree that it is the reason for the smaller bore confusion. It could have been avoided if the piston mfg had used a different pin height. IMHO

    Matt
    I do not have any loyalty to one piston mfg and would entertain any that show me an advantage etc.

    Please tell me lore about the ross ones that your waiting on. Hmmm what would we get with the ross and the thinner gaskets??????

    I will contact advance sleeve but I would think if I change the sleeve(maybe good idea for the price) I would change the rings as well and you know what the next question is Which rings to use.

    Cometic did claim the .025 and .012 and added that the base does not compress. Also that these must be order individual and are not part of a kit.

    Thanx

    PS I was thinking that the cams you had recomended earlier did not require hard facing the rockers.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    OXFORD, CT
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    440ex4me, I too would trust the machine shop that had more experience in the motorcycle line of work., but it shouldn't be a hard job for either. I've found that most of the motorcycle shops sub their machine work to the automotive guys anyway.

    There is a counterbore in the top of the 400EX aluminum cylinder w/o the sleeve installed. All the replacement, and also stock, sleeves have a step or shoulder at the top of the sleeve OD that fits into the cylinder counterbore. The sleeve mfg's leave about .010" extra length on the top shoulder to allow for any variations when machining the sleeve/cylinder top surface flat across. I didn't mean that the sleeve protrudes into the head - sorry.

    I wrongly assumed that you have a Wiseco piston since you are having a hard time getting the correct compression ratio. The numbers I quoted were for the Wiseco piston and won't apply to the JE one. If you tell us the pin height, dome volume and valve notch volumes for the JE 89mm piston we can compare the two and see what you have. If I get a chance tomorrow, I'll call JE and ask them.

    I ordered the Cometic top-end kit #C7826 directly from them and it came with the thin .012" non-compressable type base gasket and the .025 coated stainless steel head gasket. The Honda base gasket compressed was about .020".
    Mods: Big Gun FS w/MM quiet core, no lid , K&N, FCR41, 11.3:1 440 and Web 479 cam, porting, no choke. Works TRS fronts & Ultracross rear shock, a few other goodies
    450R,250EX, Blaster, Banshee

  7. #37
    Guest
    Sorry but I do not have the J&E info as all I know is that I think "its in there"

    I am researching to find someone local to NJ to maybe get it decked.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Visalia, CA
    Posts
    193
    Oops, had a "senior moment" there 440EX4Me. Forgot you already had the 440. Duh. I certainly wouldn't change the sleeve unless there was something wrong with it.

    Any decent machine shop should be able to handle anything we've discussed here.

    Instead of tearing everything apart, why not just cc your motor, as described by Mickey Dunlap's latest post here?

    On hardfacing: Web makes the 450/451, the same cam as GT Thunder's, and WBros Track. While GTT and WBros say it's a drop in cam, Web says you must hardface the rockers. So who's right? I suspect that unless you use an OEM Honda cam, you're taking a risk. All 3 that I listed error on the safe side. As the man says "ya' pays yer money and takes yer chances".

    Just got off the phone with Cometic tech. Their 3 piece steel head gaskets don't compress. The fiber gaskets will compress, the base one about 10%. Using kit C7826 (the one I got from Advanced Sleeve), there's a .025 3 piece steel head gasket, and the .020 fiber base gasket will compress to .018.

    I custom ordered some Ross pistons (minimum order of 4 when custom work is being done) to do my 440 motor. All 4 are taken, btw. The Ross piston is slightly lighter than the JE or Wiseco pistons, and I was able to order a special lightweight alloy wrist pin. The custom work involves removing about 10 grams of metal around the pin boss area. When it's all done, the total weight of the Ross assembly will be the same as a stocker, give or take a gram. The Ross rep, Honda Jim, also noted some advantages over the JE piston. Bigger valve pockets, better ductile iron moly rings, etc. And since he designed the JE piston when he worked there, I'm inclined to believe him. When they arrive, I'll be able to compare them to a Wiseco that I have sitting here. No JE currently available to compare it to though.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    OXFORD, CT
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    Matt, inspection of my GTT (450/451) cam didn't show any tell-tale signs of hardfacing (weld mat'l. on the sides of the lobes). Looks like it was just ground to a smaller base circle. The hardness was within 3 points on the Rc scale of stock. I only checked them on the base circle side to avoid putting "pits" on the pressure/rub surfaces, as most all of the hardfaced cams I've looked at were welded all the way around (eliminates some distortion). If you still have the head cover off take a look at the sides of the lobes on your cam - just curious. Also, the base gasket in the C7826 kit I received was about .010"/.012" thk. and would not compress much.

    440Ex4Me, Don Scinto Automotive, 1269 Barnum Ave, Stratford, CT 06614 is familiar with doing this sort of work. I made him his fixtures. DSA is only one day UPS from Jersey. P.S. Tell him Mike Minner referred you.
    Last edited by MIKE400EX; 03-07-2002 at 11:21 AM.
    Mods: Big Gun FS w/MM quiet core, no lid , K&N, FCR41, 11.3:1 440 and Web 479 cam, porting, no choke. Works TRS fronts & Ultracross rear shock, a few other goodies
    450R,250EX, Blaster, Banshee

  10. #40
    Guest
    Wow with all this talk of deck heights and the like I am thinking I had missed something. Well I think I found it.

    Do any of the piston manufacturers produce their pistons with a wrist pin to deck height that will allow the motor to achieve the proper compression ratio ( as stated by themselves) with the standard OEM gaskets?

    This would solve the problem pronto and avoid all the BS. Wow I cant believe this. I have decked v/8 big block chevys in the past because you got some great gains, but I do not remember coming up this short on compression before.

    I guess im just getting a little frustrated cause I need to make up for the pistons shortcomings.

    And thanks again for all the help.

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