what oil to use?

[mity4]

I'm ready to do an oil change ( I've already done several) and was wondering if I should go synthetic or simi-synthetic. Also what brand and is it available through the dealer?

[fasterblaster02]

If you have the KTM motor, you can use polaris PS-4 PLus and it is available form the dealer. I am still on my break-in period on mine and dont know a lot about these machines yet, so there may be a better oil than what I am using. Yes this is a full synthetic oil, I paid about 10 bucks a quart. I have always thought that it is not best to switch between conventional and synthetic oils on the same motor more than necessary. I hope this helps a little.

[birdman7389]

Forget all that $$. Go to wal-mart or the local auto parts store and get a gallon of Rotella 10-40 non-syn for like $12.
All the KTM guys run it in their race and trail bikes, and lots of the quad guys are catching on.

Read up on it at ktmtalk.com.....

[Outlaw212]

That's what I use in my 525 outlaw.

The owner's manuel said NOT to use the Polaris PS-4! First it says to use it but then has a note not to use it.

The Rotella 10w-40 non- synthetic or the Rotella 5w-40 Synthetic is what most guys are using.

You can buy it by the gallon at Wal-mart

[Chris525]

Rotella 5-40 syn
love it, never gonna switch

[fasterblaster02]

Originally posted by Outlaw212

The owner's manuel said NOT to use the Polaris PS-4!

That may be true but PS-4 PLUS is recommended for use. Although I have been reading about the 5w-40 Rotella T and it sounds like that is what i will get next.

[scuzz]

Guys,

Take the time out to read this page it explains why you shouldn't use diesel oil or anything other than motorcycle oil. One of the main reasons is because of how car and diesel engine oil doesn't resist foaming (as would occur in your tranny). Keep in mind that not only does oil that is foaming not lubricate, but it also traps heat and clutch debris causing further problems.

Will other oils work? Of course they will!

It's just not the best idea for your precious baby.

[birdman7389]

Originally posted by scuzz
Guys,

Take the time out to read this page it explains why you shouldn't use diesel oil or anything other than motorcycle oil. One of the main reasons is because of how car and diesel engine oil doesn't resist foaming (as would occur in your tranny). Keep in mind that not only does oil that is foaming not lubricate, but it also traps heat and clutch debris causing further problems.

Will other oils work? Of course they will!

It's just not the best idea for your precious baby.

Rotella is not energy conserving, there are no friction modifiers, and it does not hurt our clutches.

Lots of people run Rotella in these same KTM engines, and run them HARD. Everyone has had great results. Race teams that would tear down their engines after the season would find no wear, and the trails guys that would do the same after several years found the same.
I know this stuff works in the KTM RFS motor, and will keep using it.
I have read the site you posted before, and there is some good info there. It just seems pretty general, not specific to our usage.

[scuzz]

Check this one out:

http://www.p1-performance.com/pdf/oildoc.pdf

SYNTHETICS IN THE USA ©2006
In the USA there are a few different types of synthetic base stocks used in engine oils. We will just
touch on three in this paper.
The word Synthetic is confusing; it describes a process, not a material. For example, White sand is
synthesized into glass, but glass is never called “synthetic sand”. Most people think that ALL
Synthetic oils are made of the same base, THIS IS WRONG! For most of the USA, there are mainly
Two types of synthetic oils (or as we like to say, synthetics are DESIGNER oils).
The first type is a GROUP 3. This is a Petroleum oil that is re-refined to deliver a good base oil.
The process and end product is the least expensive of the 3 types of synthetics. Actually this type of
product was considered a Petroleum oil until a recent legal battle was lost. The molecules are not as
consistent in their size as in a PAO or ESTER (mentioned below) but are better than a Group 1
and 2 petroleum oil. The advantages of the G3 are a cleaner base, a higher Viscosity index (ability
to flow) and better all around performance.
The second type is a PAO, short for POLY-ALPHA-OLEFINE -or easier to understand, it is
SYNTHESIZED PETROLEUM oil. It is refined in a special process, or in simple words
“synthesized”. It still starts out by being pumped out of the ground. PAO’s are better than regular
petroleum oil for handling heat, oxidation, low temperature startups and higher film strength.
Drawback, PAO and PETROLEUM are dynamic types of oil, you have to build up oil pressure and
have rotation before a film is produced. Better said, you have to HYDROPLANE the engine parts
like you hydroplane a car in the rain, to create a film! (Or in the case of water-skiing, you have to
build speed for the skier to get up and plane on the water) PAO’s are NOT VERY expensive
because they are made from crude oil and produced in large quantities.
The third type of synthetics is a, SYNTHETIC ESTERS. (Diester, Polyolesters, polyesters and
complex esters) Motul® uses esters in its products. ESTERS ARE MOSTLY MADE OF
VEGETABLES, minerals and animal fatty acids. (Motul’s® esters contain a lot of coconut
derivatives) Esters are much more expensive because the ingredients all have to be collected from
natural RENEWABLE resources and synthesized (a very expensive process) in smaller quantities.
Esters have all the advantages of a PAO but more of them. ESTERS CAN HANDLE HEAT
BETTER THAN PAO’s AND WHEN BURNED, ESTERS LEAVE FAR LESS (COKING)
DEPOSITS. ESTERS ARE POLAR/STATIC types of OILS and ARE ATTRACTED TO METAL
PARTS WITH AN ELECTRO-CHEMICAL BOND. THIS MEANS NO MORE METAL TO
METAL START UPS, This also means that a film is THERE BEFORE The Oil Pressure Light
Goes Out preventing Premature Ware Of High-Stressed Parts Like Cam Lobes. The Film created is
up to 5 times stronger then petroleum oil..
THE NUMBER 1 REASON TO RUN AN ESTER SYNTHETIC OIL is BOND. The Electrochemical
bond is made because the ESTER MOLECULE IS POLAR! Sort of like a refrigerator
magnet! It is attracted to metal and it sticks.
THE PAO MOLECULES ARE NEUTRAL and act like a piece of plastic placed on the Frig. They
just fall off. FYI, all commercial jet planes use an ester synthetic of some type and not a PAO! You
need to run an ester of some sort for maximum protection!
Dave Wolman 2005 1
LET’S EXPLAIN WHY HANDLING HIGHER RUNNING TEMPS IS IMPORTANT .
With petroleum oils there is a much better risk of failure from volatility problems than with
synthetics. Why?
HAVE YOU EVER BURNED BUTTER while cooking? YES, everybody has burned butter!
The running temp or maximum temp is low. When butter reaches its’ maximum running temp it
starts to evaporate (volatility) then it carbonizes and then it sticks to the metal pan. Now compare
butter to VEGETABLE OIL in which you deep fry “French fries”! The only way to heat vegetable
oil so hot as to make it carbonize, you would almost need a direct flame.
Petroleum oil is like Butter as far as handling heat! And SYNTHETICS are like
VEGETABLE oils, synthetics won‘t burn up and stick to your engine parts or go out the breather
as fast as petroleum oils will. (Remember ESTERS leave almost no DEPOSITS if they do burn)
THIS IS THE SECOND REASON to run a SYNTHETIC OIL. (Because you’re not
supposed to have extreme heat problems everyday)
BASIC TECH POINTS: RACING AND HIGH PERFORMANCE OILS (MOTUL
300V RACING SERIES ARE RATED AS SG/SH, WHILE OR HIGH
PERFORMANCE STREET OILS ARE THE NEW SJ RATED.
· Engines, especially air or oil cooled designs need lubricants that can handle higher running
temps to INCREASE VISCOSITY RETENTION, while reducing consumption and oil film
breakdown.
· High Performance engines always increase the load pressures placed upon moving components.
High lift cams and stiffer valve springs load up the lifters, rocker arms and valve ends. Newer
designs incorporate gear driven overhead cams which bring a new challenge. More internal
gearing will shares the engine oil faster. Because of that, Motul® adds more medium
EXTREME PRESSURE (EP) additives such as ZINC and a STRONG EP additive, called a
SULFURIZED ESTER to handle the shear / meshing of the engine.
1. EP additives come into play at the instant a medium extreme pressure is applied and high
temperatures are created. ZINC lays down a barrier that prevents metal to metal contact and
the SULFURIZED ESTER produces a sacrificial film that is destroyed during very strong
extreme pressures as it prevents SEIZING. EP additives are generally corrosive especially those
used in gearboxes. WE use this ESTER because it is FAR LESS CORROSIVE and more
environmentally safe than others that can do the job. (This is what those TV advertised
products forget to tell you when you see them test a ball bearing under 100,000 pounds of
pressure)
2. To explain it easier, let’s take a sandwich wrapped in plastic wrap (the EP additive
would be the plastic wrap). If you were to squeeze the sandwich you would contact the plastic
wrap with your fingers (your fingers representing the gears) and the sandwich would squish ,
however, your fingers NEVER actually made contact with the sandwich!
· Performance engines NEED A BALANCED FRICTION MODIFIER PACKAGE! So that the
ring seal stays strong, roller and ball bearings roll in the race and plain bearings have as little
drag as possible.
NOTE: The SULFURIZED ESTER is a part of this friction reduction package due to its ability to
STICK to engine parts (ferrous metals)
· Performance engines used in endurance type of competition need strong A NTI - ACID (BASE)
(TBN, total base number)!
Dave Wolman 2005 2
1. Condensation (the steam that you see coming out of your tail pipe in the morning)
which is a natural by-product of combustion in an engine. This condensation which is acidic
water, passes by the rings under compression into the crankcase and mixes with the sulfur,
SULFURIC ACID is created. ANTI-ACID (base) neutralizes the acid before it can cause any
damage.
· High revving engines need strong ANTI-FOAM ADDITIVES.
1. Higher RPM aerates the oil more.
We must pop the bubble before it causes damage! Why,
a. Foam is air, air does not lubricate: friction from metal to metal produces higher
heat and wear.
b. Foam is air; air is a better insulator then a transmitter of heat. It does not transmit
heat from hot metal parts to the oil very well or vice versa.
c. Problems - OIL PUMPS DO NOT PUMP AIR!
1. Oil pressure can DROP!
2. TEMP’S can RAISE due to inefficient heat exchange
Endurance engines NEED STRONG DISPERSANTS to suspend the combustion by-products that
are created and materials rubbed off during normal operations. If you find worn components in
your older race engine, ask yourself a question? WHERE DID THE MATERIAL GO?
a. The parts were beaten or compressed and the material is still there
b. The materials were rubbed off and washed RIGHT INTO THE OIL!!! We want the
material to stay in tiny pieces and stay mixed in the oil, so that the oil filter can do its
job. There are many devices on the market now that surround the filter with a magnet to
capture some wear metals.
· Race engines NEED A STRONG DETERGENT, WHY? Because of more heat generation (more
horsepower per ci) trying to fry the oil onto the engine parts, and added dirt being dropped into
the oil from the by-products from combustion.
· M otul SYNTHETICS C AN be mixed with MOST high quality mineral, Group 3, PAO or
ESTER synthetic oils, without major problems. Try to stay close to the viscosity range. (I.e.
10w40 mixed with 10w40). If you have mixed oils, Motul Recommend an oil change when you
get home from the Event, since the oil additives and base from our oil is now not balanced.
THESE ARE SOME OF THE MAIN ISSUES THAT MOTUL® LOOKS AT WHEN DESIGNING A
PERFORMANCE ENGINE OIL.
As discussed earlier, synthetics can handle much higher running temperatures than conventional
petroleum oils and can withstand more stress. Many people ask, so what! I don’t push my vehicle
that hard and I change oil every 1000 miles! I don’t need expensive performance oil in my car.
Dave Wolman 2005 3
This type of thinking is wrong!!!!
The question we have for you folks is a simple one?
Why do you wear a helmet, Gloves, boots, jacket and WHY do you buy INSURANCE? In case of
an accident! Right!! If within the first fifty (50) miles after an oil change, a rock hits your radiator
or the thermostat sticks, the water pump stops pumping or whatever causes a major heat problem
in your cooling system, what would you rather have in your engine? A mineral oil that acts like
butter, that burns up and evaporates very quickly and also carbonizes OR an oil that can handle
high RUNNING temps like synthetics (325°f to 367°f).
High quality oils are INSURANCE not only maintenance. The same is true about brake fluids and
gear oils.
THE API CONTROLS THE STANDARDS FOR AUTOMOTIVE ENGINE OILS.
SJ , SL AND NOW SM MAY NOT BE AS GOOD FOR HIGH PERFORMANCE
RACING ENGINES AS THE OLDER SG/SH RATING.

[scuzz]

Also, FWIW I'm not trying to be a "Mr. Knowitall" - I'm just trying to be helpful.