the epic arms are +3+1 and the laegers are +2+0 and im running custom axis 20 1/4 inch length shocks on both,i am also running 4+1 hyper rims both setups,was having frame scraping problems with 20 inch mx razr tires so i "bandaid fixed" with taller 21 inch tires to keep frame from scraping on bottom outs,now im able to run the 20 inch mx tires and no problem with frame scraping a lot,i will enclose photo of epics raised to full ext and with shock sag ,i only have a photo of laegers with the shock sag but extended length is similar to the epic pic,also spring preload with the epics i had to max the tightness of the spring with the top circlip ,with the lagers i was able to go 2 clips below having springs totally loose from moving up and down in adjuster clip