Steering and Handling Discussion.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by guinness77
I own the Diamond J Customs A-Arm extension pkg. I got the 4".

First off comes installation. Be aware that the 4" extension is four inches PER SIDE; NOT OVERALL. The install was on a 400ex. The install went pretty smooth. Essentially, the a-arms and upper shock mounts are move outward from the frame 4". The plate pieces lined up perfectly. As I tightened them down the frame brackets did bend just a bit. But nothing that couldn't easily be fixed with a pair of lock-jaws in the event I wanted to take them off. The brake lines must be unclipped from the a-arms and the c-clips on the calipers. The banjo bolt does fine without the extra clamps. When the quad is lifted from the ground and the tires turned so-as to pull the brake lines tight, the lines are long enough to do the job. BUT THAT'S IT. Another 1/2 inch and the lines would be so tight as-to-be unsafe. So it'll work in the typical jumping and twisting. But in a crash, all bets are off. A stock oil tank won't interfere with install. But if you have an aftermarket high-capacity tank, well... better get some longer tank bolts and some spacers... say... 1/4 inch. That'll make the a-arm extension brackets clear the tank by 2 or 3 millimeters. The instructions were woefully poor. But a mechanically inclined person could do it. You must layout all parts very carefully before installing. Install takes about 4 hrs. The bolts are 1.5 inches longer than they need to be and I was short a couple of washers. But neither of those issues were any problem.

After install came ride time. Moving the a-arms out 4" softened the shocks up front.. that's for sure! But it was nothing the couldn't be compensated for by even a medeocre rider. Stiffen the shocks by adjusting them.

The 400ex handles MUCH better now. There's very little lean when you're in a corner. The quad likes to track flat when you're going around anything.

I'm slowly increasing the air on my jumps and I'm detecting no stress as of yet. The metal on those brackets is 1/4 inch thick. So that ought to handle just about anything.

The trade off is in the tight trails. An extra 8" in width is quite a bit. Be careful. Watch out for those trees.

Strength of the kit was never my concern... if you read the posts so far you would understand why I am against these kits. What shocks are you using by the way? If it softens the front end up how are you getting less lean in corners?

You say you are detecting no stress as of yet? What are you looking for. I wouldn't count on the brackets breaking, it will be things like balljoints and tie rod ends. They will snap without warning most likely.


Also even at 1/4" thick you say they will handle anything? Not quite, run into anything with it and forget about it, the a-arms are acting like giant levers on those brackets, they will bend, they're just mild steel. Post some pics of your setup if you wish with the tires at ride height, full squat and full extend just so we can visibly show everyone the amount of bumpsteer built into the kit.

[IMSROLL450R]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
Strength of the kit was never my concern... if you read the posts so far you would understand why I am against these kits. What shocks are you using by the way? If it softens the front end up how are you getting less lean in corners?

You say you are detecting no stress as of yet? What are you looking for. I wouldn't count on the brackets breaking, it will be things like balljoints and tie rod ends. They will snap without warning most likely.


Also even at 1/4" thick you say they will handle anything? Not quite, run into anything with it and forget about it, the a-arms are acting like giant levers on those brackets, they will bend, they're just mild steel. Post some pics of your setup if you wish with the tires at ride height, full squat and full extend just so we can visibly show everyone the amount of bumpsteer built into the kit.

I rode a 400 with one of these kits on it and any rough stuff just completely beat the crap out of you through the handlebars. Mild bumpsteer is an understatement.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by IMSROLL450R
I rode a 400 with one of these kits on it and any rough stuff just completely beat the crap out of you through the handlebars. Mild bumpsteer is an understatement.

I never said anything about mild bumpsteer!

The bumpsteer that is designed into these kits, is absolutely ridiculous. It makes me laugh when anyone says how nice they ride...

[guinness77]

Just stiffen the shocks. That'll make up for the added softening. I ride in the dunes. I wouldn't take this thing into the tightly wooded trails.

The upper shock mounts, and the A-Arm brackets are moved exactly the same distance from the frame. But think about if they were 5 feet long. The tires would still sit the same. But a bug landing on the handlebars would push down the front suspension. So... the up-and-down action of the suspension (for lack of a better term) is pretty close to stock. It's just a bit easier to get the suspension to compress...until you click up the shocks. Which on my machine are stock and pretty much suck.

A wider base is (usually) a more stable base. And I notice it in the sand.

Pics.... If I actually had enough time to learn how... then maybe. But you can go to DiamondJcustoms.com and see plenty of examples already.

[IMSROLL450R]

Originally posted by guinness77
Just stiffen the shocks. That'll make up for the added softening. I ride in the dunes. I wouldn't take this thing into the tightly wooded trails.

The upper shock mounts, and the A-Arm brackets are moved exactly the same distance from the frame. But think about if they were 5 feet long. The tires would still sit the same. But a bug landing on the handlebars would push down the front suspension. So... the up-and-down action of the suspension (for lack of a better term) is pretty close to stock. It's just a bit easier to get the suspension to compress...until you click up the shocks. Which on my machine are stock and pretty much suck.

A wider base is (usually) a more stable base. And I notice it in the sand.

Pics.... If I actually had enough time to learn how... then maybe. But you can go to DiamondJcustoms.com and see plenty of examples already.

Bumpsteer has nothing to do with the shocks or basically the plushness of the ride. What he is talking about is how far the a arm pivot points are from the center of the frame. When they are moved outward, bumpsteer is increased, which is transmitted through the tierods, steering stem, handlebars. Thats what we are talking about being rough. Stiffening the shocks will not affect bumpsteer.

[guinness77]

Originally posted by IMSROLL450R
Stiffening the shocks will not affect bumpsteer.

Agreed. But it will change the plushness of the ride. Bumpsteer isn't much of a problem in the sand. Maybe it's different in MX'ing (or other kinds of riding.). I havn't tried any of that.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by guinness77
Agreed. But it will change the plushness of the ride. Bumpsteer isn't much of a problem in the sand. Maybe it's different in MX'ing (or other kinds of riding.). I havn't tried any of that.

Bumpsteer is a problem no matter where you ride. You are just making it that much harder on yourself to ride it in any conditions. On a 400ex you have no way of adjusting the compression on stock front shocks. About all you can do is adjust the preload collars a little stiffer, but you wont notice the difference. I really didn't want this to turn into another thread arguing about why the Diamond J custom widening kits are ok for average riders. I created it so people would understand why they are NOT OK. If it's working out for you thats fine, but I am trying to keep this an informational thread. If you have any questions on anything I will be more than happy to try to answer them. Thanks.

[trx250r180]

question on suspention cycle,i had a set of epic +3 arms making my 450r 50 inch wide with 4+1 rims ,when i would push up and down on front bumper of quad tires would slide about 1/2 to 3/4 inch sise to side on garage floor ,i recently put laeger +2 a-arms on to make 48 wide so id fit in woods a little better when trail ride ,i noticed when i cycle the +2 laeger arms the tires stay in contact with the floor throughout the cycle without sliding,is it the added width making them slide through the travel or desighn of a-arms?i noticed the +2 arms i was able to square off inside corners faster without front end push like i had before ,i have to use a little more body english to take a 4th gear sweeper corner being narrower but my laptimes seemed to increase being narrower ,and had less rider fatique also

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by trx250r180
question on suspention cycle,i had a set of epic +3 arms making my 450r 50 inch wide with 4+1 rims ,when i would push up and down on front bumper of quad tires would slide about 1/2 to 3/4 inch sise to side on garage floor ,i recently put laeger +2 a-arms on to make 48 wide so id fit in woods a little better when trail ride ,i noticed when i cycle the +2 laeger arms the tires stay in contact with the floor throughout the cycle without sliding,is it the added width making them slide through the travel or desighn of a-arms?i noticed the +2 arms i was able to square off inside corners faster without front end push like i had before ,i have to use a little more body english to take a 4th gear sweeper corner being narrower but my laptimes seemed to increase being narrower ,and had less rider fatique also

Good questions and good observations on your part. This is really tough for me to say not seeing it in person. It could be a number of things contributing though. First question for you, were the epic arms by any chance +1 forward, I've noticed this has quite a negative effect on the handling of the R's. This would definitely cause the "pushing" in corners as you described. This could also be from poor castor setup. Whether the arms are adjustable or not for this I'm not sure. As far as the movement of your wheels, good observation. This happens on all atv arms. What I find odd however is that your longer arms moved more. This should be quite the opposite actually. The shorter the physical length of the arms, the more they have to travel up and down to get the wheel to move a set distance. Longer arms have to move vertically less to get the wheel to move the same distance, as the wheel is further from the frame. 1 inch is almost negligible however. Another question are you using the 4:1 wheels still? I'm assuming you are. Now I really cant say for sure as I don't know the design intent of the epic arms, but there could be a few different things going on here. First, nonparallel arms could cause this. Using nonparallel arms can be used to an advantage to gain camber as your wheels cycle through their motions. Using unequal length arms could also cause this. (Please don't confuse my term "unequal length" arms, as I've yet to see an ATV that used the same length top and bottom, it just means that one arm is not cycling as much as the other arm. Adjusting Camber could cause this too, as you are effectively taking length or adding length to the upper arm by doing so. It is possible your new arms are non adjustable or adjusted so that the arms are "parallel" and "equal length" Meaning they are following the exact same cycle pattern, they remain parallel throughout the entire cycle of the suspension.

From the sounds of it your epic arms were either designed poorly or poorly setup. No offense I don't know your abilities or how the arms are built, and I certainly don't want to step on anyones toes, yours, or epics! Suspension setup could have also played a role in how these arms performed, so there really are too many variables for me to give you a definite answer. Your leagers have to move throughout the wheel travel, they might just move little enough for you to not notice or its possible they are losing camber throughout travel so that the top of the tire is doing all the moving and the bottom stays planted, which isn't good either. Having camber remain constant is good to have, or even slight camber gain would be good too. It really depends on rider preference and type of racing. If you're faster with a narrower quad then you have obviously nailed a better setup, whether it be rider input, suspension design or suspension setup, or a combination of the three, something is right now. Let me know if anything else needs explaining, I realize some of this may be confusing. Please don't be afraid to ask, because if someone doesn't understand something, then chances are other people don't understand it either.

[trx250r180]

the epic arms are +3+1 and the laegers are +2+0 and im running custom axis 20 1/4 inch length shocks on both,i am also running 4+1 hyper rims both setups,was having frame scraping problems with 20 inch mx razr tires so i "bandaid fixed" with taller 21 inch tires to keep frame from scraping on bottom outs,now im able to run the 20 inch mx tires and no problem with frame scraping a lot,i will enclose photo of epics raised to full ext and with shock sag ,i only have a photo of laegers with the shock sag but extended length is similar to the epic pic,also spring preload with the epics i had to max the tightness of the spring with the top circlip ,with the lagers i was able to go 2 clips below having springs totally loose from moving up and down in adjuster clip