poll about cam and using old rockers

[chrisc]

just wanting to know if you reused your old rockers when putting in a hotcam and how many hours are on your quad after the install. also if you reused the cover gasket ?

[Glamis400ex]

I have a 99 400ex and has been re-built now for 8 months. I used the old rockers with my stage 2. I inspected them for wear and they looked good.

I'd say I have a solid 100 hours on the rebuild. Yes, you can use the rocker cover over and over. I've taken the top end apart 4-5 times with the same gasket. Just be sure the gasket and the mating surfaces are clean. Use some carb cleaner or the like to get them real clean. Don't actually spray carb cleaner on the head, but on a rag instead and wipe clean.

Glamis

[PhilMoore]

How about the valve springs? Should I change them when I install a Hotcam stage 1?

My 400ex is 5 and a half years old, never had the engine open except to adjust valves.

[2004TRX450R]

You should ALWAYS replace the rockers when ever you change the cam. Even if the bike is new with low hours on it. It isn't a matter of the rockers being worn out or bad but rather they wear in with the cam. It can cause premature wear on the cam and rockers. Follow the directions that came with the cam. I'd be willing to bet they say the same thing I just said.

[ghak99]

Originally posted by 2004TRX450R
You should ALWAYS replace the rockers when ever you change the cam. Even if the bike is new with low hours on it. It isn't a matter of the rockers being worn out or bad but rather they wear in with the cam. It can cause premature wear on the cam and rockers. Follow the directions that came with the cam. I'd be willing to bet they say the same thing I just said.

I agree, new cam = new rockers, but I always like to do engine work the right way instead of doing it twice! If you expect it to run and run hard every time you get on it, You have to treat it right!

Just my .02

[chrisc]

well so much for a drop in cam!!!! looks like I should buy rockers to do it right. and thay arn't cheap new from honda !!!

[Fast350ex]

I thought a drop-in-cam used the stock rockers and valve springs?

I'm looking to get a cam from Curtis Sparks and I was wondering if I should get a drop in or a reg. cam, either way I'm gonna get hard-faced rockers and heavy duty valve springs and titanium retainers. which cam is the best for racing.

[EXDUNER127]

yeah, i was going to get the hotcam stg 1 in my bike because everyone says you can keep stock rockers and springs?

[ghak99]

You can just drop one in, but it is not the best idea in the world. They will wear on each other differently than the old one did, and could cause premature wear of either one, and then you are right back where you started from, buying new parts!:(

[EXDUNER127]

Well how come so many people just pop one in and have no problems....why else would it be called a drop in cam.

[PHIL_B54]

they are called drop in because they are the same hardness as the original cam, therefore you can use stock rockers (stock hardness). in non-drop in cams they weld on the cam to change the profiles, this welding makes the cam harder and you have to use hard-faced rockers to resist wear.

i re-used my rockers with my drop in. ive had it apart once and everything looked good, i probibly need to check again. but i havent had a problem. i know that i shouldnt have, but for the risk, i didnt feel the extra $ was worth it.

[Glamis400ex]

Well, I gave my 2 cents worth. Do what ya want. Or better yet do a search....5000 threads on this topic.

Glamis

[2004TRX450R]

A drop in can says you can use stock rockers. Doesn't say anything about not useing new stock rockers. If you actually read the instructions on any cam you buy it will tell you to replace the rockers no matter how long they have been run. I bet if I drained all the oil out of my bike and started it up for a short period then shut it off and refilled it I could pull it apart after I run it for awhile with oil in it and everything will "look" OK. But that doesn't mean it didn't hurt the performance and isn't going to wear prematurely. If you drop the money on a cam do it right and replace the rockers as well. It is the difference of doing a more professional job the right way vs doing a back yard mechanic hack together job.

[SnellCRP]

I agree with 2004TRX450R and ghak99 100% about if you want to do it the right way change the rockers with the cam. I also know from that not everone can afford to change the rockers everytime you change the cam. As you probably know when the cam is first broke in with the rockers they will form a wear pattern together just as your cylinder does with your piston rings. If you change the cam and not the rockers you are wearing your new cam to the wear pattern of the rockers.

I have seen bikes that have had 3 different cams with no change of rockers and even an oil seized top end with wore rockers and cam and the owner didn't want to have them changed because of $$$ and that bike is still running today with no problems.

I guess its more your call than anything. If your willing to take a chance at a possibility of premature cam wear to save some $$$ do it. You might have problems you might not, you will probably be alright with the stock rockers. Its your call. Just my .02:)

[RED121572]

My quad is over four years old, its had three different cams, three different pistons w/ the same set of rockers. Yes, I replace the gaskets whenever I open the motor up.

[Bill Fuller]

Originally posted by Fast350ex
I thought a drop-in-cam used the stock rockers and valve springs?

I'm looking to get a cam from Curtis Sparks and I was wondering if I should get a drop in or a reg. cam, either way I'm gonna get hard-faced rockers and heavy duty valve springs and titanium retainers. which cam is the best for racing. You do not need hard faced rockers with a drop in came you are wasting your money with these ideas.Same goes for the titianum retainers and heavy duty valve springs,but it's your money.If I had all your money to spend I would buy a TC cam instaed of the Sparks though.

[Bill Fuller]

P.S. and I would change the stock rockers when changing the cam.They are not that expensive from Service Honda.The old cam has already "worn" the rockers the way it specifically travels on the stock cam lobe.I'm not saying it won't work it just makes sence to do the job right,you wouldn't use old rings on a new piston now would you?And yes it is fine to reuse the gasket as long as you didn't tear it up during removal.

[PHIL_B54]

2004TRX450R, i was explaining the concept and reasoning behind stock rockers/drop-in cams. i never said that you should not use new ones. i said that i know that i shouldnt have re-used them. but for as many people on here that re-use them we hear of very few problems, and i am willing to risk it because i am not a "professional". i mean really we all shouldnt re-use the gaskets either, but Mickey said himself that you can. does that make him not a professional, i think not.


Originally posted by Glamis400ex
Well, I gave my 2 cents worth. Do what ya want.

yep, the guy asked and i answered.

[chrisc]

so with the new rockers they will have wear in, so what is the difference between a old rocker wearing in and a new one. if it is has high wear that is different. as I see it the only thing would happen is the valves may have to be set after they both wear in.

[chrisc]

Originally posted by Bill Fuller
P.S. and I would change the stock rockers when changing the cam.They are not that expensive from Service Honda.The old cam has already "worn" the rockers the way it specifically travels on the stock cam lobe.I'm not saying it won't work it just makes sence to do the job right,you wouldn't use old rings on a new piston now would you?And yes it is fine to reuse the gasket as long as you didn't tear it up during removal. I just got done pricing them and my honda place sayes they are over 30.00 each thats 120.00 and tax that doesn't seem very cheap to me .

[ghak99]

30.00 each, they could be I have not priced stock rockers. There are only 2 rockers on a 250x and 300ex.

If they are 30 each, that would be 60 dollars wisely spent in my book. I would rather spend 60 now than buy a new cam and 2 new rockers in a month or two if they don't seat together right.

Good Luck with what ever you decide!

[PHIL_B54]

Originally posted by chrisc
so with the new rockers they will have wear in, so what is the difference between a old rocker wearing in and a new one. if it is has high wear that is different. as I see it the only thing would happen is the valves may have to be set after they both wear in.

someone let me know if i am incorrect here, but
when you put in a new piston/rings you hone the cyl wall to rough it up a bit. when you are breaking it in, the roughness grinds the new rings to fit to any imperfection or un-roundness of the cylinder. the same thing applies to the cam/rockers. both have a slight roughness to them, and they wear to fit each other. so then you put the new cam in the bike, and the cam has roughness but the rockers are now smooth. the roughness of the cam will eat some more of the rocker's material off when the break in together. the problem with this is that the 400ex's rockers are soft, but have a chrome plating on them to resist wear. if the break-in + wear +second break-in goes thru the plating they will quickly wear the soft rockers, and tear stuff up.

[Bill Fuller]

If they are for the 400 than they are 21.97 each from Service Honda which comes to around $90.Your choice...........

[Bill Fuller]

Originally posted by PHIL_B54
someone let me know if i am incorrect here, but
when you put in a new piston/rings you hone the cyl wall to rough it up a bit. when you are breaking it in, the roughness grinds the new rings to fit to any imperfection or un-roundness of the cylinder. the same thing applies to the cam/rockers. both have a slight roughness to them, and they wear to fit each other. so then you put the new cam in the bike, and the cam has roughness but the rockers are now smooth. the roughness of the cam will eat some more of the rocker's material off when the break in together. the problem with this is that the 400ex's rockers are soft, but have a chrome plating on them to resist wear. if the break-in + wear +second break-in goes thru the plating they will quickly wear the soft rockers, and tear stuff up. ding ding ding we have a winner!

[chrisc]

Originally posted by PHIL_B54
someone let me know if i am incorrect here, but
when you put in a new piston/rings you hone the cyl wall to rough it up a bit. when you are breaking it in, the roughness grinds the new rings to fit to any imperfection or un-roundness of the cylinder. the same thing applies to the cam/rockers. both have a slight roughness to them, and they wear to fit each other. so then you put the new cam in the bike, and the cam has roughness but the rockers are now smooth. the roughness of the cam will eat some more of the rocker's material off when the break in together. the problem with this is that the 400ex's rockers are soft, but have a chrome plating on them to resist wear. if the break-in + wear +second break-in goes thru the plating they will quickly wear the soft rockers, and tear stuff up. I'll buy that . I didn't know they had a chrome plating on them , I am used to the diesel engines they are just plain old solid liffters and don't matter. Thanks also where did you get yours for 21.00 each ? Thats better than my local honda shop they wanted 30.67 each x 4

[SnellCRP]

The stock rocker arms that you buy from Honda are hard faced. Now I don't know for sure the thickness of the hard facing of a stock arm as compared to a aftermarket arm, but I assume that it is thicker on the aftermarket arms.

PHIL_B54, I agree with you. There is a chance that if you go from a long duration cam to a short duration cam that if the stock rockers are visibly worn you will wear the lobes right off of the new cam, but if when you inspect the rocker before you install the cam and there is no "groove" cut into the rockers or such extreme wear that you can catch your fingernail on them you should be able to take some fine sandpaper and just clean them up and they will be fine.

[Bill Fuller]

www.ServiceHonda.com

[PhilMoore]

I ordered a set from service Honda yesterday. Here is the reply:

YOUR TOTAL WITH SHIPPING COMES OUT TO $98.88, YOU SHOULD SEE THESE PARTS WITHIN 5-7 WORKING DAYS.
INVOICE #156592
BRAD L.


Anybody think I should change springs too? My springs are the originals and they are over 5 years old.