WSJ Bashes ATVs

[atv223]

February 10, 2004 Wall Street Journal

Dangerous Terrain
As ATVs Take Off in Sales,
Deaths and Injuries Mount

Motorcycle-Like Vehicles Fall
Into Regulatory Void;
Industry Split on Rules

Jessica Adams's Brief Ride


By JOHN J. FIALKA


MORGANTOWN, W.Va.-The last time Jessica Adams's mother saw her alive, she was spread-eagle on a gravel embankment along a rural road here. Jessica looked like she was sleeping, but her neck was broken. By the time she arrived at the hospital, she was dead.
Jessica, a petite 13-year-old, and another girl, age 14, had borrowed an adult size all-terrain vehicle and sped off down a paved road to a nearby Boy Scout camp. Witnesses saw Jessica sitting behind the driver. Police say she died after the ATV veered out of control, climbed a 5-foot embankment and hit a tree.


Sales of ATVs-the four-wheel, motorcycle-like vehicles made to navigate rough terrain at speeds as high as 70 mph-climbed 89% between 1997 and 2002. In 2002, the latest year for which figures are available, manufacturers say they sold 825,000 ATVs in the U.S., exceeding sales of small pickup trucks. Kawasaki Motors Corp., Honda Motor Co., Arctic Cat Inc., Polaris Industries Inc., Yamaha Motor Corp. and other ATV makers that previously focused on selling snowmobiles say they've found a juicier' market in ATVs.

But as ATV sales have expanded to more than $3 billion a year, so have deaths and injuries, particularly among children. According to the federal Consumer Product Safety Commission, Jessica was one of 357 people to die in ATV crashes in 2002, up 67% from 1997. Serious injuries more than doubled in the same period, with 113,900 riders hurt in 2002.

Since 1992, a third of the injured have been under 16, and children under 12 have accounted for 14% of deaths. ATV injuries are 12 times as likely to be fatal to children as bicycle accidents, says the National Safe Kids Campaign, a nonprofit that tracks childhood deaths.

Judging the relative danger of ATVs is tricky. There were more deaths and injuries on ATVs than on snowmobiles or personal watercraft in 2002. ATV use results in more injuries per vehicle than cars, though there are more deaths per vehicle in cars. A more meaningful measure might be deaths and injuries per mile traveled, but those figures aren't available for ATVs, snowmobiles or personal watercraft. Cars travel many more miles than the other vehicles.

When problems first cropped up with ATVs in the 1980s, federal regulators prodded the industry to stop making three-wheel versions. But today, their four-wheel cousins operate in a virtual regulatory void. Unlike cars, trucks and motorcycles, they aren't subject to regulation by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration because they're not designed for highway use. The CPSC is investigating allegations of safety problems but hasn't found any evidence of improper design. Since the agency only regulates products, not their potential misuse, the agency's chairman says states are in a better position to deal with ATV accidents.

Yet state regulation is minimal. Only 10 states require that ATV drivers have a driver's license. While 27 states set a minimum age for ATV drivers, two-thirds allow 12-year-old drivers and, in Utah, 8-year-olds are legal. Only 20 states require riders to wear helmets. Thirty-four bar most uses of ATVs on paved roads, but those laws are frequently ignored. In West Virginia, with the nation's highest ATV-related per capita death rate, legislators have debated rules for seven years without passing any.

With little pressure from the government, the industry has had internal fights over how much to regulate itself, if at all. Alarmed by increased deaths and injuries and concerned about potential liability, manufacturers have proposed laws in West Virginia, Pennsylvania and other states that would require riders to wear helmets, bar ATVs from paved roads, prohibit passengers on ATVs, and keep children under 16 off adult-size vehicles. The industry "really has a comprehensive plan in place and states are implementing pieces of that in varying degrees," says Tim Buche, president of the Specialty Vehicle Institute of America in Irvine, Calif., which represents ATV makers.

But ATV makers have encountered resistance from some dealers who favor allowing passengers on ATVs and want to open more paved roads to the vehicles. Meanwhile, consumer advocates criticize manufacturers' proposals as being designed merely to shift responsibility from companies to consumers and state law-enforcement authorities. These advocates prefer a federal ban on sales of ATVs for use by kids under 16.

"Self-regulation by the ATV industry has led to larger and faster ATVs and more children being killed and injured," says Rachel Weintraub, an attorney for the Consumer Federation of America in Washington.

Manufacturers also are resisting some state regulation. In Maine, for example, legislators are preparing to address ATV safety and trespassing problems. The industry has countered with less-stringent proposals. "Industry is more focused on this than they have been in a long time," says Paul Jaques, head of an A,TV task force appointed by Maine's governor. "They recognize that if somebody doesn't do something, about these things this whole thing’s going to blow up.”

The first ATV was a small, motorized tricycle, developed by, Honda engineer around 1970. The machine was first popular among farmers, forester and others who put them to work; Recreational users began to boost U.S. sales in the 1980s.

But the three-wheel vehicles were difficult to handle, especially for untrained drivers. After more than 260 ATV users died in accidents in 1987, the CPSC sued the five largest manufacturers, asking a federal court to halt production and sales because ATVs were imminently dangerous consumer products.

The manufacturers, who had already planned to switch to four-wheel vehicles, agreed to stop production of three-wheelers. They also agreed to stress more prominently warnings that are now bolted onto today's vehicles. The warning labels say drivers should wear helmets; passengers shouldn't be allowed; the vehicles are hard to steer on paved roads because the low-inflated balloon tires are made to grip uneven terrain; and children under 16 should ride only smaller, less-powerful machines under parental supervision.

Four-wheel ATVs, which are more stable, soon grew more popular than their predecessors, especially with recreational users. Sales over the last 10 years have increased five-fold, and, 70% of users now ride ATVs as a "family recreational activity," according to the ATV manufacturers group.

In recent years; the industry has rolled out hot-rod-like "high performance" ATVs capable of higher speeds and quicker acceleration. Marketing pitches revel in speed and power. In sales brochures for its Predator ATV line, Polaris says "survival of the fittest is the rule ... And like all dominant beasts, Predator continues to evolve. That's a good thing. Because out here, you're either Predator or you're prey." The line includes adult models and smaller versions built for children as young as 6.

A Yamaha brochure for one of its less powerful models says, "The whole point of the ATV movement is to get out there and experience Mother Nature; the pace at which you experience it is, of course, entirely up to you. Tear along when the mood strikes you."
Manufacturers say they don't market adult-size models to youngsters. In brochures, the industry shows family groups wearing goggles and helmets, with parents supervising children, who ride smaller machines. "Riding an ATV is an exercise in responsibility," says a Honda brochure.

However, children often use adult size ATVs. Jeff DeVol, a dealer in Parkersburg, W. Va., says he and his salesmen tell customers that children can't safely handle adult-size machines, which cost $3,000 to $6,000 apiece, and urge parents to buy child-size models, which run as high as $3,000. But some buyers don't believe him, he says, and many can't afford more than one machine. Buyers sometimes fib about the recipient' and get a "household ATV" that winds up being used by teens, he says.

The Consumer Federation and several medical and environmental groups have petitioned the CPSC to ban the sale of adult-size ATVs for use by children under 16. Ms. Weintraub of the Consumer Federation says the ban would enable the agency to fine or bring criminal charges against manufacturers who don't police dealers. It would also send "a powerful message to parents," she says.

The CPSC has the power to impose a ban or order vehicles redesigned if it finds they pose substantial harm, says Hal Stratton, the commission's Republican chairman. But, after months of research and public hearings in West Virginia, New Mexico and Alaska, the agency hasn't found design flaws so much as "behavior problems" in how people ride, he says.

Even consumer advocates haven't cited design flaws in ATVs. And because the CPSC regulates products, not how people use them, it may not be able to act, Mr. Stratton says. However, agency staffers haven't completed their investigation or decided what could be done. One possibility is suggesting model legislation to states, Mr. Stratton says.

West Virginia's experience suggests why state regulation is piecemeal or nonexistent. The rural, mountainous state is one of six with no ATV regulations. It counts about 200,000 of the vehicles, or about one for every nine persons.

[atv223]

The number of deaths and injuries among young people “is an epidemic in terms of what we previously experienced, "says Jim' Helmkamp, an epidemiologist for the Center for Rural Emergency Medicine at West Virginia University. Since 1990, West Virginia has averaged 15 ATV deaths per year, at least 35% of them on paved roads. Last year, there were 27, the center says. Mr. Helmkamp has conducted studies showing that states with helmet-use and other regulations have lower death and injury rates.

Julian Bailes, head of the neurosurgery department at West Virginia University Hospital, where Jessica Adams was pronounced dead, says the hospital's emergency staff has seen 238 ATV-related injuries and deaths over the last decade. About a third of the victims were under 18 and 80% weren't wearing helmets, he says.

"What stands out is the stupidity of some of these accidents," he says. The worst involve parents carrying young children as passengers. The kids are "almost always thrown off and sometimes the vehicle rolls over on them."

But efforts to regulate ATV use, including that by children, have gone nowhere. "The local bubba wants to ride on the roads," says Leff Moore, lobbyist for West Virginia's Recreational Vehicle Association, a group of 14 dealers who have been pushing the manufacturers' proposed legislation since 1996. It would codify into law the warnings already bolted onto vehicles, requiring helmet use and barring children under 16 from riding on adult-size ATVs.

The legislation has never gotten close to a decisive vote, largely because of opposition by a splinter group of ATV dealers led by Mr. DeVol, the Parkersburg dealer. He says safety problems have less to do with the vehicles than with the people who use them. "My customers tell me that if the law results in a blanket statement that ATVs are prohibited from all paved roads in the state, basically you're making criminals out of them," he says.

Each year, Mr. DeVol's group has succeeded in persuading enough lawmakers to oppose the manufacturers' favored legislation. The group's lobbyist, Sam Love, says he makes a practice of reminding legislators how many of their constituents use ATVs. "When you have 200,000-plus people in the state, this is something legislators need to know before they enact restrictive legislation."

Last year, as the bill moved through the Senate, Mr. Love persuaded lawmakers to add an amendment that would have explicitly opened 20,000 miles of rural roads-many of them paved-to ATVs. (Currently, West Virginia law is ambiguous about whether ATVs are legal on paved roads.)

At that point, the manufacturers pulled their support, killing the bill. Mr. Moore, the industry lobbyist, says encouraging ATV users to use more paved roads could raise the state's "body count" and spur federal regulators to take more drastic steps.

Last month, the ATV manufacturers prodded West Virginia legislators with an open letter published in local newspapers demanding that the stalemate finally be broken. Now Democratic Gov. Bob Wise is trying to broker a compromise between the opposing dealer groups that would impose safety education, helmets and a no-passenger rule on children under 18.

As state police and Jessica's family have pieced together her Sept. 30, 2002, accident, the seventh-grade honor student had just finished supper and done her homework. It was around 6 p.m. She went for a walk in "Healthy Heights," the trailer park where she lived. Cynthia Lefever, her mother, says she felt little reason for concern. "She was very health and safety conscious," Ms. Lefever says.

Jessica went down the street to see a fellow seventh-grader, who wasn't home. But his 17-year-old brother rolled out the family ATV, a 2002 Honda Rancher that showroom dealers say is capable of speeds up to 50 mph. A spokesman for American Honda Motor Co., says Jessica's death was a "tragedy" beyond the manufacturer's control. "We try to make vehicles' as safe as 'possible; but it requires supervision of the parents as well," he says.

Ms. Lefever says Jessica had never shown much interest in the machines. But another friend, a 14-year,old girl, jumped on the driver's seat and Jessica climbed on behind.

An hour later, someone heard moaning coming from the nearby woods. It was the 14-year-old, who had been thrown off. She suffered a punctured lung and bruised ribs. Jessica was lying quietly nearby.

Jessica's friends fashioned a tribute of her stuffed toys and favorite candy next to the tree the ATV struck. Mr. Helmkamp, of the state's Center for Rural Emergency Medicine, is preparing a more lasting memorial: a video describing her death that he hopes to distribute among state schools. "This was an event that could have been prevented," he says.

Meanwhile, teenagers in Jessica's neighborhood still get out to joyride. Jessica's mother can hear them revving their ATV engines at night. Sometimes she sees them collecting at a nearby gas station, comparing their shiny machines. "A lot of them are boys," she says. "They think they're invincible."

[FreekShow]

Originally posted by atv223

Meanwhile, teenagers in Jessica's neighborhood still get out to joyride. Jessica's mother can hear them revving their ATV engines at night. Sometimes she sees them collecting at a nearby gas station, comparing their shiny machines. "A lot of them are boys," she says. "They think they're invincible."

Sorry but so did her daughter who was out riding double with probably no gear or helmet on. It's not the ATV's fault its the riders.

[QuadJunkies]

I am going to bump this thread because I would like to see some comments on this post. I have alot I would like to comment on, but Im short for time due to a race:D . Ill start with what a bunch of crap:rolleyes: They just wanna nick pick at what they want and none of of the in-betweens.....Im not gonna EVEN get startec until I can post more about this.......... Anyone else????????

[400exmom]

i agree its total~http://ricoracing.netfirms.com/Smilies/poopoo.gif

[quadrcr161]

Originally posted by 400exmom
i agree its total~http://ricoracing.netfirms.com/Smilies/poopoo.gif

i agree also. i love how people make it out like the atv is a dangerous creature lurking and waiting to attack someone. its just an object till some one takes control of it. if they lose control and cant handle it , its their fault not the atv's.

[Martin Blair]

I thought we just got done with this at the end of last year her we go again. Someone needs to beat some since into these people. I think they would rather us ride then do drugs or comit crime.

[airheadedduner]

That reminds me of my firends bumper sticker-Gun Control is using BOTH hands.

You can't blame an object for a persons actions.

Can anyone post an e-mail address to the WSJ?

it would be great if we could get one that goes directly to the person who wrote this article.

[iride440ex]

WSJ Email (feedback@wsj.com)

[Pappy]

Originally posted by airheadedduner


You can't blame an object for a persons actions.

exactly....

if you place a loaded gun on a table, and a baseball bat next to it, at what point does either become a dangerous weapon:confused:

I do feel this was article was handled a lot better than the ABC interview.

I might get flamed for this but here we go anyway.

I DO think it should be a STATE LAW to were a helment.
I DO think it should be ILLEGAL to ride an ATV on any paved road.
I DO think it should be an inforced law that you MUST be of age to ride the ATV,
I DO think it should be an inforced law that you can not have passengers on the ATV
I DO think that parents should be held Legaly responsable for their childrens actions operating ATVS

I know that the manufactures RECOMEND these requirements but as stated in the article that these are not laws in all states.

I like that fact that in this artcle I didn't feel as though they were bashing the ATV or the MANUFACTURES. I think if anyone was getting bashed it was the law makers.

[PHAT400]

I agree with GNCCer...

Very factual. We need all of the above. Proper education is key. i have been to many different type's of driving school's for automobile's and they have helped me with my everyday driving and also my driving skill's on the track. My son will be in a go-kart driving school this summer, (he turns 6 in march) he will be able to handle an automobile long before he will be legal to drive (he won't of course). My point is that there need's to be regulation of this equipment. Age limit's are good, schooling is good, registering is good, All that has been stated just short of outlawing these vehicle's is not all bad. We need to have some control and I do feel that Parent's are ultimately responsible for the child's life. This is not a situation that is out of the parent's control.



:macho

thats some dumb****..."But as ATV sales have expanded to more than $3 billion a year, so have deaths and injuries," I haven't ever read anything so fuxing stupid in my entire life....OMG as more people are driving cars & flying airplanes...more pollution is being released into the air & less fuel is becoming available....of course as5holes.....it has a steady rate of climbing as sales go up...

[quadrcr161]

Originally posted by GNCCer
[B].
I DO think it should be an inforced law that you MUST be of age to ride the ATV,


i dont i was racing a 250r at 12 and 13 yrs old, so were several pro's. have you seen a 16yr old on a 90cc quad? thats just a little over board the kid is way too big for that quad. i think there should be more training though.



I DO think it should be an inforced law that you can not have passengers on the ATV

again i dont see any harm, only bad thing is when the driver is careless, goes back to the training. i gaev my g/f a ride the other day on my new 450r, nothing happened.


I DO think that parents should be held Legaly responsable for their childrens actions operating ATVS

yes, they should, but hell parrents should be responsible for anythign their kids do. the parrents today suck, they do not teach their kids rigth from wrong and they dont punish kids for what they do wrong, time out?? gotta be kidding me.

[86atc250r]

I'll disagree with GNCCer.

First the "recommended ages" for ATVs are absolutely ridiculous and are what have caused some of the problems we now face.

The recommended ages have caused a void in the market which cause young riders to ride more adult sized machines.

If there were more decent midsize choices available you'd see far fewer young people riding the high end quads & you'd see more getting the opportunity to race (which gets people involved in safety, control, responsibility, and gains them skill). I'd love to see some mid size quads that are lightweight with good suspension and handling. Current offerings are pretty poor if you consider what's available in the dirtbike world for the wide range of kids individual skill levels.

The dirtbike world is completely unregulated and does fine - regulation has done nothing but hurt ATVs and ATV use.

Getting kids involved with some sort of powersports generally helps prepare them for later life - throwing a teenager in a car that's never ridden a motorcycle, ATV, kart, etc scares the crap out of me....

I'll also disagree on the helmets and paved roads.

I'm as staunch a supporter of helmet use & staying off highways as you'll find --- however, I live in a country subdivision and I do occasionally idle my quad (helmetless) a quarter mile down to the lake on the chip & seal paved road (this road has basically no traffic, as there are probably only 10 houses in the area). I don't think it's wrong & I don't think I should have to worry about the cops when I do this.

Numerous farmers use their ATVs as farm implements and need to travel paved roads to and from areas of their property.

Generating a bunch of laws around the stupidity of the few only serves to hurt the non-abusers in most cases. Apply common sense not rigid laws that "must" be enforced no matter what the circumstances.

All in all, one must keep things in perspective. Perspective is what's generally missing in these various CPSC investigations and anti-ATV articles. The number of ATV deaths is rather small compared to the number in daily use, certainly comparable to any other activity one can participate in.

The problem is many people who write articles, conduct news interviews, etc, lead lifestyles that have prevented them from participating in activities like riding an ATV. In many cases these people are far removed from reality as any of us knows it. They look at ATVing from a completely unrealistic perspective and when they get wind of someone getting seriously injured or dying on one - they have a tendency to over-react because of their lack of knowledge and experience on the subject. Others yet have ulterior motives like the environazi groups that initiated this last round of CPSC investigation....

[Toadz400]

I highly disagree with having it illegal for anyone under 16 to ride anything over 90cc. I started out with a 185, which dosen't have any power at all. I then moved up to a stock Banshee when I was 14, and I could handle it. It's all about the rider and how mature they are, but also the size of their body and muscles, and most importantly skill. I do belive it should be a law, and you should be shot, for not wearing a helmet. I think that is just the dumbest thing to do unless you are just going across the yard for something at like maybe 10mph tops...I seriously would've been dead like 10 times if I wouldn't wear my helmet each time I ride.

[VIC]

I think it's stupid that atvs get all the heat. People die everday in cars, planes, boats, on bicycles, ect.. but none of that gets the bad hype atvs do. I'm sure one plane crash gets more people killed than do atvs/year, maybe they should ban planes.

[Bad Habit]

Originally posted by atv223
.........Sales of ATVs..........climbed 89% between 1997 and 2002. In 2002, the latest year for which figures are available, manufacturers say they sold 825,000 ATVs in the U.S.......
..........But as ATV sales have expanded to more than $3 billion a year, so have deaths and injuries, particularly among children. According to the federal Consumer Product Safety Commission, Jessica was one of 357 people to die in ATV crashes in 2002, up 67% from 1997........

After reading this entire article, these statistics kept sticking in my mind.

1) Sales increased 89%, and deaths increased 67%. That to me is an indication that they are in general being used in a safer manner. Deaths have not risen proportionally with number of units sold.

2) 825,000 units sold in 2002. 357 deaths in 2002. That correlation gives you a 0.0004% ratio. It would be interesting to hear what the percentage would be for dirtbikes/deaths or even residential swimming pools/deaths.

[FFW]

I'm riding the fence on the age/displacement issue for now. It looks to be a bit too low given a 14-16 year old could handle more power. That being said the article hardly bashed ATV's but it did a fairly good job of letting the parents have it right between their eyes. As GNCCer said parents should be immediately held legally responsible for anything and everything their children do. There should also be a law preventing anyone under a certain age from riding without a helmet. There is no argument anyone can give me against riding without one.

Since vehicle miles traveled aren't calculated with ATV's there's no way to fairly compare them to cars other than a simple death rate/vehicles in use which isn't fair because the vast majority travel much farther in a car than on an ATV.

You can't force common sense on those that have none so you make laws to do it for them and make it sting...BADLY. Getting sucker punched in the wallet is the only thing some people understand.


If you must travel on a paved road then so be it. Occasionally I am forced to travel on one for a short distance but thats it. I find no joy in destroying my tires on asphalt nor do I care for the way an ATV handles in asphalt.

As nice as it sounds anecdotal evidence can't really be counted on in the argument against those that wish to regulate or even deny us the fun of ATV's. You may have a completely different experience from 100 other people and the Gov't doesn't care. How can you possibly compare a gun to an ATV? Last time I checked there was NO constitutional law giving you the right to keep and ride ATV's. There is one for gun ownership though. ATV riding is a privelege, not a right.

If the parents are held accountable, the kids wear helmets, don't ride double, don't ride where they're not supposed to (which is a huge issue), etc etc etc...the anti ATV crowd wouldn't be hammering this issue so heavily. Don't give them ammunition and they will go away. The biggest problem is this industry can't possibly hope to police itself, try as it might, and now it's getting slapped for it. I can't say I am surprised though. We are, like it or not, a nation of laws and ATV's should be no different than any other form of transportation. I really enjoy my sport and utility ATV but I know not to break the law with them which some need to learn.


I think the article was very even handed.

flame away:)

[SRH]

think about it quads are pretty safe i could take a stock quad and go ride anywhere im comfortable and it doesnt tip, a 3 wheeler will but not a quad

that story sounded a lil pornographic, spread eagle, moaning in the woods, riding double, where they even riding a quad? they probaly got a lil snarly and rolled over a cliff


its 50% parental stupiditiy 50% rider stupidity

[86atc250r]

I'm riding the fence on the age/displacement issue for now.

I have great difficulty understanding where any person with an IQ of greater than 50 could not see where having a teenage rider of any skill level on a TRX90, LT80, or an ETon 90 is a bad idea.

In my experience, putting a kid on an undersized machine is a mistake for obvious reasons.

One of the not more obvious reasons is by putting an enthusiastic kid on an underpowered and undersuspended machine, he will quickly lose respect for it. Once he loses respect for the machine, he's going to get hurt.

I went thru this process myself as a early teenager. I had totally lost respect for the machine and was routinely pushing it beyond it's limits. Once I got a better suspended, more powerful machine the crashes I was having immediately stopped.

By today's standards, my underpowered and under suspended machine was already over 100% larger than what I "Should" have been riding.

The power level of the machine is totally dependant on the individual's abilities and skill. Look at the dirtbike world. Choices for all skill levels and sizes.

Personal responsibility is the key. We don't need more out of touch lawmaker mandates, we need more common sense in both the public and especially the judicial system.

The biggest problem is this industry can't possibly hope to police itself, try as it might, and now it's getting slapped for it.

Where does the industry need to "police" itself? I guess I'm having trouble seeing a problem. The industry has historically been ultra conservative - always has been. That's why we don't get the latest engines, the latest suspension technology, or any money spent on our sport.

There will always be deaths and accidents in any activity. You will never get around that. The death rate on ATVs has historically been very low. In a 10 year period up to 1987 (the 3-wheeler years) over 5 million ATVs were in use. There were 1000 total deaths - OVER A 10 YEAR PERIOD! That's extremely low for any kind of outdoor sport activity.

I've looked at the CPSC statistics. What caused a great number of ATV related deaths? Collisions with automobiles. Is that an ATV problem or a behavior problem?

What was the single largest contributor to ATV deaths? Alcohol. If I remember correctly one of the statistics I've seen said that 70% of the ATV deaths in that period were alcohol related. Another large percentage were helmetless riders (also goes along with alcohol use).

Again - behavioral problems or ATV problems?


Don't give them ammunition and they will go away.

While that sounds like great advice, it's simply not true. We should all strive to be responsible riders but, many of these people are fanatical and won't go away until any and all public land is CLOSED. Period. All we can do is be responsible as possible & stick together to fight them every bit possible.

We are, like it or not, a nation of laws and ATV's should be no different than any other form of transportation.

Other forms to transportation have numerous laws in place to prevent your stupid decisions from affecting others & to maintain order on busy streets.

Off roading has typically been free of mandates from the govt because the choices you make typically only affect *you* - the person participating in the activity.

Dirtbikes, the most similar "form of transportation" to an ATV are completely unregulated, so why should ATVs be singled out to have a host of laws put in place to regulate their use?

What ever happened to personal responsibility instead of calling for new laws to be drafted. We all have enough rules to deal with in our daily lives. Do we really need more because there are a few stupid people out there making foolish choices?

How about we make some new laws that say you will be fined and/or sent to prison if you step on that top rung on a ladder - or how about a law to prevent you from sticking metal objects into electrial outlets....

Again, it's almost always a bad idea to attempt to legislate common sense.

[JOEX]

Thank you Gabe (86atc250r) for your well informed posts. I hope every member here reads and comprehends your message. You are a definate pilliar in the ATV community. The information you post is what should be broadcast on these so called 'news' shows. Maybe you can contact Diane Sawyer and JOHN J. FIALKA for a rebuttal:)

Joe

[FFW]

[i]Originally posted by 86atc250r

I have great difficulty understanding where any person with an IQ of greater than 50 could not see where having a teenage rider of any skill level on a TRX90, LT80, or an ETon 90 is a bad idea.

In my experience, putting a kid on an undersized machine is a mistake for obvious reasons.


Problem is thats your experience and not reflective of everyone else. Do you speak for the entier ATV owner population?



One of the not more obvious reasons is by putting an enthusiastic kid on an underpowered and undersuspended machine, he will quickly lose respect for it. Once he loses respect for the machine, he's going to get hurt.

I went thru this process myself as a early teenager. I had totally lost respect for the machine and was routinely pushing it beyond it's limits. Once I got a better suspended, more powerful machine the crashes I was having immediately stopped.

By today's standards, my underpowered and under suspended machine was already over 100% larger than what I "Should" have been riding.

The power level of the machine is totally dependant on the individual's abilities and skill. Look at the dirtbike world. Choices for all skill levels and sizes.


I can certainly understand having a machine that enhances and supports your capabilities with better suspension and the like but learn to keep your kid in check and maybe he/she won't seriously hurt or kill themselves. Injuries are going to be a given if you get out of first gear. It's called being a parent. Buy a machine that can go faster, jump farther, climb hills better and the kid will push the envelope. Train them, be a parent, and teach them there are serious consequences for pushing it past their abilities and I have no problem with that.



Personal responsibility is the key. We don't need more out of touch lawmaker mandates, we need more common sense in both the public and especially the judicial system.
[/QUTE]

I already support personal responsibility but what about the visible few that choose not tp pracitce responsible riding?

[QUOTE]
Where does the industry need to "police" itself? I guess I'm having trouble seeing a problem. The industry has historically been ultra conservative - always has been. That's why we don't get the latest engines, the latest suspension technology, or any money spent on our sport.


The industry HAS to police itself. Do you really believe Honda and the others would willfully and willingly produce machines that are inherently dangerous or push on us machines that have no built in saftey margin? Why do you think we have those warning stickers all over our quads? Problem is there are so many out there that refuse to abide by the rule of common sense the outcome will invariably be death or injury. Since some refuse to heed the warnings placed on their machines we have a need for laws.





There will always be deaths and accidents in any activity. You will never get around that. The death rate on ATVs has historically been very low. In a 10 year period up to 1987 (the 3-wheeler years) over 5 million ATVs were in use. There were 1000 total deaths - OVER A 10 YEAR PERIOD! That's extremely low for any kind of outdoor sport activity.

I've looked at the CPSC statistics. What caused a great number of ATV related deaths? Collisions with automobiles. Is that an ATV problem or a behavior problem?


Why not strive to reduce the deaths? I don't go out riding knowing that I might die.

You might want to actually include the current statistics as they are far more indicative of the what we're seeing since they cover predominately 4 wheel ATV's. The statistics you cite only cover a 6 year period according to the CPSC. Their data goes back to 1982.

Here's the breakdown with the link provided:
ATV deaths (http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia04/brief/deathatv.pdf)

Not including 2003 the death rate for the past 10 years has been 5289.


Now why, exactly was there a large amount of deaths on ATV's due to collisions with automobiles? Is this due to cars parked in driveways or the rider colliding with a car on the road?



What was the single largest contributor to ATV deaths? Alcohol. If I remember correctly one of the statistics I've seen said that 70% of the ATV deaths in that period were alcohol related. Another large percentage were helmetless riders (also goes along with alcohol use).

Again - behavioral problems or ATV problems?


I assume you are referring to your previous statistics? If so how does that compare to today? It doesn't. Your comparing 3 wheel ATV's with 4 wheel ATV's.



While that sounds like great advice, it's simply not true. We should all strive to be responsible riders but, many of these people are fanatical and won't go away until any and all public land is CLOSED. Period. All we can do is be responsible as possible & stick together to fight them every bit possible.


You just showed direct support for my statement. Thanks. But saying we can fight the tree huggers when we have many that choose to ride where they're not supposed to and continue to break the law that makes our fight that much harder.



Other forms to transportation have numerous laws in place to prevent your stupid decisions from affecting others & to maintain order on busy streets.

Off roading has typically been free of mandates from the govt because the choices you make typically only affect *you* - the person participating in the activity.


Right, thanks for supporting my point again. What you do on an ATV can have an adverse affect on whether I can ride one on currently designated lands so laws are, unfortunately, the answer. If you choose to traverse land that doesn't belong to you, it can affect me. If you choose to steer off a trail and damage area that isn't meant to be ridden on, it can affect me. if you barrel through someones property and tear up their crops, it can affect me.



Dirtbikes, the most similar "form of transportation" to an ATV are completely unregulated, so why should ATVs be singled out to have a host of laws put in place to regulate their use?


Whats the reputation of dirt bikers? You think it's anything like that of ATVer's? Not a chance. I belong to a club that has ATV's and predominatly motorcycles and it's an uphill battle all the time to get any respect from them. They know the bad rap ATV's get because of what they see when they're out riding. Perception IS everything.



What ever happened to personal responsibility instead of calling for new laws to be drafted. We all have enough rules to deal with in our daily lives. Do we really need more because there are a few stupid people out there making foolish choices?


There we go with responsibility again. Utopian society maybe, the real world, forget it. If you aren't breaking the law what is the problem? Those few stupid people out there mandate laws be passed for the common good of society. Like it or not that is the way it goes.




How about we make some new laws that say you will be fined and/or sent to prison if you step on that top rung on a ladder - or how about a law to prevent you from sticking metal objects into electrial outlets....


When was the last time you took that ladder out and tore up someones land with it? Give people an inch and they take a mile.



Again, it's almost always a bad idea to attempt to legislate common sense.

And it's an ever worse idea to assume humans will have any common sense.

[86atc250r]

Problem is thats your experience and not reflective of everyone else. Do you speak for the entier ATV owner population?

I didn't insinuate that I did - however, I do have well over 20 years riding experience on ATVs and motorcycles and my experience in being heavily involved in offroading for the greater portion of my life does reflect on things I've encoutered over the years - I figured that somewhat qualified me to share my experience on what can happen.

I suppose Barbra Walters or Ozzy Osborn is more qualified to speak for the entire ATV population?

Train them, be a parent, and teach them there are serious consequences for pushing it past their abilities and I have no problem with that.

EXACTLY....

However, these wonderful governmental guidelines you so cling to are the reason the void has been created that does not allow you the option of selecting the proper machine for your child.. Either the machine does not exist, or you'll be breaking the law by having that 6' 170 lbs 14 year old on a Suzuki LT160 (or other "Adult" sized machine).


The industry HAS to police itself. Do you really believe Honda and the others would willfully and willingly produce machines that are inherently dangerous or push on us machines that have no built in saftey margin? Why do you think we have those warning stickers all over our quads? Problem is there are so many out there that refuse to abide by the rule of common sense the outcome will invariably be death or injury.

Again - show me where the industry is not policing itself and is creating "unsafe" machines --- then you'll have a valid point.


Since some refuse to heed the warnings placed on their machines we have a need for laws.

I guess since dirtbikes don't have warning placards they are totally safe, no one has any accidents due to stupid mistakes & they do not require any sort of laws governing their use?

BTW - how do you suppose these laws are going to be enforced? I guess some Agency will need to be developed and a beauracracy needs to be put into place.

Why not strive to reduce the deaths? I don't go out riding knowing that I might die.

Sure, trying to prevent deaths is always a good idea - however, where does it end? When do we say enough is enough & there's only so much we can do --- when it's regulated that we must remain in a padded room so that there is no chance that we may kill or injure ourselves?

You missed my point entirely - ATV deaths are historically and currently EXTREMELY low when looked at from a realistic perspective. If you feel the need to "Make a Difference" I can think of many more places your efforts could be better concentrated.

Past statistics are similar to current statisics and are relavent to quote. In fact, past statistics include mostly the 3-wheeler days, vehicles that apparently were FAR more "Dangerous" then the 4 wheelers we all ride today.

Now why, exactly was there a large amount of deaths on ATV's due to collisions with automobiles? Is this due to cars parked in driveways or the rider colliding with a car on the road?

Either or - doesn't matter --- show me where that's an ATV problem and not a behavioral problem.

It's already law that you shouldn't be riding on city, county, or state highways.

Common sense tells you to stay away from parked vehicles and should be taking it easy in parking areas - are we going to write a law stating it's illegal to run an ATV into a parked vehicle? I can certainly see where that will save lives.

assume you are referring to your previous statistics? If so how does that compare to today? It doesn't. Your comparing 3 wheel ATV's with 4 wheel ATV's.


Are you inferring that 4 wheeled ATVs are "More dangerous" than the 3-wheeled variety? If so, you're the first person I've heard claim that one.


You just showed direct support for my statement. Thanks. But saying we can fight the tree huggers when we have many that choose to ride where they're not supposed to and continue to break the law that makes our fight that much harder.

I suppose... You missed my point again though - you said ride responsibly and they'll go away. I made the point that your simplistic statement is not true in the least.

Who in their right mind would not agree that we should all strive to ride responsibly and provide a good example? My point is that you can't just do that, sit on your butt and expect the ATV critics to go away --- ain't gonna happen.

We should all be more active in preserving our right to enjoy public lands, and to stop those that abuse that same land.

Right, thanks for supporting my point again.

I see my post got under your skin a bit.... Take it easy, I was not attacking you or trying disagree with everything you said - just making some very broad points of my own, using your post to key off of.

What you do on an ATV can have an adverse affect on whether I can ride one on currently designated lands so laws are, unfortunately, the answer. If you choose to traverse land that doesn't belong to you, it can affect me.


Again, behvioral problems that can be applied to someone riding a dirtbike, ATV, Sled, 4x4 truck, horse, goat, or chicken.

How will regulating manufacturers solve this?

Most places already have laws in place that prevent trespassing, riding on areas of public land that are off limits, etc.

What exactly are you proposing be done? A law that specifically says you can not Trespass on someone's land while using an ATV? That's redundant....

You said "ATV's should be no different than any other form of transportation." -- I made the point that ATVs are different than all the other forms of transportation out there & are more similar to dirtbikes than these "other forms of transportation", now you're bringing up completely unrelated behavioral problems in attempt to prove some unspecified point you're trying to make.


Whats the reputation of dirt bikers? You think it's anything like that of ATVer's? Not a chance. I belong to a club that has ATV's and predominatly motorcycles and it's an uphill battle all the time to get any respect from them. They know the bad rap ATV's get because of what they see when they're out riding. Perception IS everything.

So this is suddenly about reputation. So, all ATVers require some sort of manufacturer regulation, limits on sizes, and other government influence because there are some morons out there that like to drink beer and cut doughnuts in the parking lot of your favorite riding area or ride wheelies down the highway...

I like the more direct approach - go after the source of the problem, the morons causing the trouble. The guy with a cooler full of beer on his utility quad. Laws are already in place that can deal with these folks and other abusers of public land.

Either way, if the park rangers, etc can not handle these idiots right now, how are you going to do anymore good by imposing a bunch of new legislation on all the rest of us?


And it's an ever worse idea to assume humans will have any common sense.

Arguing to be argumentive? A certain level of common sense has to be assumed for our society to even function. There's only so much you can or should do to keep the stupid from killing or hurting themselves - which was the whole point of my ladder and electrical outlet examples. You can't legislate for every stupid thing a person can do - even if you did, you'd end up with so many ridiculous laws the country would come to a halt if they all could be enforced.

What we can do is find things that have risk factors totally out of proportion with what's reasonable and try to prevent those things. ATVs so far are not one of those things. Drinking and driving, however, is. Pulling a skateboarder behind your car is. Not obeying traffic signals is - the list goes on and on.

Like I said before - if you're compassionate enough that you want to make some sort of "difference" in the world - your efforts are better focused elsewhere or on keeping yourself safe from what *you* consider unreasonable risks -- the rest of use can fend for ourselves and don't really want or need "Big Brother FFW or Uncle Sam" holding our hands and spoon feeding us thru life.

[brian-250]

Originally posted by GNCCer

I DO think it should be an inforced law that you MUST be of age to ride the ATV,
.


:grr: i dont