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4strokin
02-11-2004, 08:21 PM
hey, how do you guys think a new z450 (rmz450 powered quad)would rank against the yfz450 and the new 450r??

02-11-2004, 08:25 PM
no one can tell...it depends on how much they detune it

rollie
02-12-2004, 06:53 PM
i think it will if it has reverse than even better

Tommy 17
02-12-2004, 07:01 PM
i don't keep up with bikes much...


but i thought suzuki/kawi released a rmz/kxz 250f only not a 450...


personally i know their bikes are the weakest outta the major 5 builders... i'd expect the quad to be the same... but who knows...

Fred55
02-12-2004, 07:47 PM
Actually their new 250 fourstroke bikes are just as good as the Hondas and Yamahas, they are even winning all the shoutouts just because they seem to have the best of both Honda and Yamaha.

4strokin
02-12-2004, 08:00 PM
the way i see it is that in the begining of the new era honda came out with the 400ex and it was fine, it got the job done and reopened the whole high performance market again. then yamaha followed suit and released a nasty raptor, again it did a great job but it was not really race-able due to the open class engine it had. and last but not least suzuki unleashed the z400 and in my opinion blew the competition away. then again yamaha unveiled the yfz450 a short while later which is just sick!! and again honda (tryin not to be out done) came out with the 450r which is very nice i have ridden one already and it had plenty of power but i still believe the yamaha has the advantage. but it seems to me suzuki is hiding in the corner waiting and building a better quad out of the rmz450. like it has in the past, it already knows what the competition is so it doing some R&D to crush them again like the Z did to the raptor and 400ex. this is just my opinion and if u can't tell i'm a Z fan. let me know what u think!

jb500ex
02-12-2004, 08:18 PM
hopefully it will handle better then the z the frame won't crack like the z and the axle won't snap like the z

Hawk III
02-12-2004, 08:25 PM
From what I have been told by a very good source on the "inside" the new Z450 will be released sometime this spring (they thought probably in March) I only know of a couple things this bike will have
1) all aluminum frame
2) no reverse
The new motor is supposed to just flat out own.
Kawasaki will have their bike out sometime late this year or early next year. And this bike will NOT be a makeover Suzuki.

Woody_YFZ
02-12-2004, 11:06 PM
Here we go again. This sounds like the old 450R talks about the aluminum frame, fuel injection, etc. Rumor has it that Suzuki will release the 450 dirt bike this summer and the quad should shortly follow. I would imagine they will be contenders with Yamaha and Honda. The Z400 is a great quad, so I would expect the new 450 to be too.

Hawk III
02-13-2004, 05:45 AM
well it's not here we go, the information i received is from a guy that does r & d for suzuki, he is a person that is a big name guy in our industry. I am just relaying what he told me a week or so ago.
I owned a Z400 and it was a good bike! It just wasn't exactly what I wanted.

popo
02-13-2004, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by Hawk III
well it's not here we go, the information i received is from a guy that does r & d for suzuki, he is a person that is a big name guy in our industry. I am just relaying what he told me a week or so ago.
I owned a Z400 and it was a good bike! It just wasn't exactly what I wanted.

Not to sound like a jerk. But if your friend does R&D work for Suzuki, isn't he violating Suzuki's corporate policy for releasing confedential information.

If he's a big name, who is he? As a stock holder with Suzuki I would like to talk with him.

4strokin
02-13-2004, 08:21 AM
all i'm hopin is for suzuki to produce a viable contender against the 450r and yfz450 and it would be great if some of the old parts converted over to the new Z450! i just cant wait for what this sport has in it's future, i'm so excited!!

Hawk III
02-13-2004, 08:41 AM
Not to sound like a jerk. But if your friend does R&D work for Suzuki, isn't he violating Suzuki's corporate policy for releasing confedential information.

I don't want to sound like a jerk either...but do you really think I would give you that information? lol NOT!! He also does work for the other factory's too.

z400ACDC
02-13-2004, 12:53 PM
"As a stock holder with Suzuki...:rolleyes:

popo
02-13-2004, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by z400ACDC
"As a stock holder with Suzuki...:rolleyes:

Ya, don't you have stock with Bill Ballance and J.J. :rolleyes:

z400ACDC
02-13-2004, 01:23 PM
If you call being friends "stock" then yes. Get over it! If you got a problem with me take it to PM.

popo
02-13-2004, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by z400ACDC
If you call being friends "stock" then yes. Get over it! If you got a problem with me take it to PM.

Than don't talk smack!

wrewster
02-16-2004, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by jb500ex
hopefully it will handle better then the z the frame won't crack like the z and the axle won't snap like the z

In defense of Suzuki, they appeared to have corrected the problem with the first releases of there Z-400 and did offer some concessions to there customers under warranty. Yamaha seems to have problems with there "firsts" and they aren't all that willing to stand behind there products as well. Atleast from what I've heard with others I know of. I think that all rsecreation sport quads have weak axles for pure race applications and aftermarket is always the way to go,period. For a $5,699. MSRP the Suzuki Z-400 offers alot for such a reasonable price but let's not expect the world for nothing if you know what I mean. They never claimed it was full race ready out of the crate but it is a good platform to build upon and I think the new Z-450 will be the one to beat. I would expect it to be either announced/released by early fall,cross my fingers.

Derno24
02-18-2004, 01:19 PM
Guys I would expect that they would release the Bike first like it has always been done. Especially since they need a 450 dirtbike. Than release the quad. Which would mean spring next year. Should be interesting to see how it stacks up.

jarsong
02-18-2004, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by wrewster
In defense of Suzuki, they appeared to have corrected the problem with the first releases of there Z-400 and did offer some concessions to there customers under warranty. Yamaha seems to have problems with there "firsts" and they aren't all that willing to stand behind there products as well. Atleast from what I've heard with others I know of. I think that all rsecreation sport quads have weak axles for pure race applications and aftermarket is always the way to go,period. For a $5,699. MSRP the Suzuki Z-400 offers alot for such a reasonable price but let's not expect the world for nothing if you know what I mean. They never claimed it was full race ready out of the crate but it is a good platform to build upon and I think the new Z-450 will be the one to beat. I would expect it to be either announced/released by early fall,cross my fingers.

Yep fact is I did a ton of research on the Z400's when we bought ours and couldn't find any more frame/Axle problems on there quads produce after March of 2003. It was a rolling line fix. Ours is late 2003 date bike and has so far been PERFECT. These people just like to jump on the broken frame/Axle bandwagon for what ever reason.
And to the Suzuki stock holder, you should thank the guy for leaking some information. Might have just held off a couple YFZ/450R sales. Leak just might be by design???
jarsong

Fred55
02-18-2004, 08:20 PM
I personally want Suzuki to make a 250cc Racing quad also, with the RMZ250 engine in it. Atv racing really needs set displacement classes like dirtbikes. (125 and 250) Quads need classes like 250 and 450 and Open.

KILLAQuad
02-19-2004, 02:28 PM
GET'EM POPO :eek2: :D

Texasrider
02-25-2004, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by 4strokin
all i'm hopin is for suzuki to produce a viable contender against the 450r and yfz450 and it would be great if some of the old parts converted over to the new Z450! i just cant wait for what this sport has in it's future, i'm so excited!!

The future is already here!

Fred55
02-25-2004, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by Fred55
I personally want Suzuki to make a 250cc Racing quad also, with the RMZ250 engine in it. Atv racing really needs set displacement classes like dirtbikes. (125 and 250) Quads need classes like 250 and 450 and Open.

brandonpeake
02-26-2004, 09:08 AM
personally honda dropped the ball, big time i started to buy a yfz but held off the see what the honda would be like b/c nobody wants to spedn over 6 g's and be like , man i screwed the pooch by not waiting on the whatever brand for a month or 2, and personally i think suzuki is at a huge advantage for several reasons

1- the see how honda screwed up w/ out using an electric start, i bet the suzuki will have one

2- the got all of their issues worked out with the z-400, look at the 1st year raptors the tranny's were sh*t, really way to high geared and sh*t is the best i can say about them, another reason i didnt jump on a yfz but did yamaha do anything nope,
i know people w/ the 1st z400's and out local suzuki dealer which was great made it right, one guy even got his frame replaced, never heard of a yamaha dealer doing that

ive owned several suzuki quads in the past and still got a quadrunner utility quad and they are all top notch quality, i think the z450 will be better than the honda and give the yfz a run fir its money may be better or should be a its down to preference issue

4strokin
02-26-2004, 09:29 AM
i agree, suzuki is gonna learn from the honda and yamaha mistake and make one kickass race bike!!

robman
02-27-2004, 02:21 AM
I need a quad with smooth transissional power,low center of gravity,Electric start,at least10 inches of travel and looks cool plus it hasto be fastre than the trx and the yfz.Only Suzuki can give me that and then some from what I have heard.RMZ450 motor puts out way more power,it's smaller and lighter.What do you think the Z stands for?:D There's also a rumer flying around that Elka sighned a big deal with Suzuki.Definitly worth the wait.:cool:

brandonpeake
02-27-2004, 06:51 AM
well im not going into debt for a bike so waiting for the suzuki is fine for me , for right now im happy with my paid for 400ex

robman
02-29-2004, 10:16 PM
me too

brandonpeake
03-02-2004, 06:49 AM
i used to think like now suzuki would be better off to say hey we are coming out with the new z450 in the sping, car manufacturers do this over a year in advance usually but then i saw how people on here got so pi$$ed about eing tired of waiting, but honda kept pushing the date back, but u had to expect it when has honda not done that!

wrewster
03-02-2004, 09:30 AM
Does anyone out there own an 04' Suzuki Z400/ Kawi KFX400 and have the noted upper shock mount stress cracks in there frame? I am just curious. I had one of the original batch 03's and experienced no problems whatsoever. I sold it and I am going to buy the new 04' and I called Suzuki customer relations and they say the problem was taken care of. I also spoke with John Arens who makes frame support brackets to fix the problem and he says I still need his bracket for the 04' models. I just wondered if the problem is still widespread like the early 03' models???

wrewster
03-02-2004, 10:09 AM
I trust that Suzuki will come out swingin' with a quad that competes on all levels with the new R and YFZ. Even though the original Z had some frame stress and weak axles it was directly aimed at the recreational rider like the EX was. The recreational rider, not abuser, usually didn't experience a single problem. If you are going to race it hard you will want a gussetted frame and replace the axle anyways. Once made ready to race though it still competes with the new R and the new YFZ and has proved to be a viable platform to build upon. So, look out when they actually make an actual race ready quad. I can't wait!! I heard it will be announced to atleast the east coast Suzuki dealers, at there June dealers meeting. Then I would expect it to be released late this year or early in 05'. I mean come on, we haven't even seen the dirtbike yet so I think this is more accurate. Other than complete rumors I haven't read anywhere where they will have an aluminum frame or not. Honda does with the CRF but decided not to with there R. We do know that Suzuki was using an aluminum frame on the prototype dirtbike racing it in Japan this year before it's release. Alot can change from what they test and what actually makes it into a production machine.

wrewster
03-02-2004, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by Hawk III
From what I have been told by a very good source on the "inside" the new Z450 will be released sometime this spring (they thought probably in March) I only know of a couple things this bike will have
1) all aluminum frame
2) no reverse
The new motor is supposed to just flat out own.
Kawasaki will have their bike out sometime late this year or early next year. And this bike will NOT be a makeover Suzuki.

**I trust that Suzuki will come out swingin' with a quad that competes on all levels with the new R and YFZ. Even though the original Z had some frame stress and weak axles it was directly aimed at the recreational rider like the EX was. The recreational rider, not abuser, usually didn't experience a single problem. If you are going to race it hard you will want a gussetted frame and replace the axle anyways. Once made ready to race though it still competes with the new R and the new YFZ and has proved to be a viable platform to build upon. So, look out when they actually make an actual race ready quad. I can't wait!! I heard it will be announced to atleast the east coast Suzuki dealers, at there June dealers meeting. Then I would expect it to be released late this year or early in 05'. I mean come on, we haven't even seen the dirtbike yet so I think this is more accurate. Other than complete rumors I haven't read anywhere where they will have an aluminum frame or not. Honda does with the CRF but decided not to with there R. We do know that Suzuki was using an aluminum frame on the prototype dirtbike racing it in Japan this year before it's release. Alot can change from what they test and what actually makes it into a production machine.

robman
03-04-2004, 02:34 AM
Why does everyone think the bike hasto be developed way before the quad?Both are being devloped at the same time thus the z in the rmz.Don't worry everything is on scheduel.:cool:

brandonpeake
03-04-2004, 06:44 AM
b/c that is the way it has been in the past, they take a dirtbike engine and stick it in a quad

but stuff changes just b/c it was done this way before dont mean suzuki will od it this way now

wrewster
03-04-2004, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by robman
Why does everyone think the bike hasto be developed way before the quad?Both are being devloped at the same time thus the z in the rmz.Don't worry everything is on scheduel.:cool:

The mfrs. probably release the dirtbike versions first each time because the bike is easier on the motor. Less of a load with a smaller contact patch to the ground. This would allow more time for testing for the ATV version before it's release as it is more demanding on the motor. Does this make sense?? Another possibility is that dirtbike racing is at a higher level right now than quad racing is, hopefully this will change in time. Just another possibility and it could be a combination of both as to why the dirtbike versions come out first each time.

SnellCRP
03-10-2004, 10:08 AM
I don't have alot of experience with the Z engines, but I do know that on the national circuit Suzuki's 4 strokes are dropping like flies with many engine and transmission problems. This info comes from people that deal directly with the factory race bikes and the teams. Suzuki tried to jump into the market and have a motor that would be better than the YZF's and CRF's. The transmission gears 4th and 5th are breaking because the factory tried to reduce rotating mass by lightening those gears, but didn't think that on some tracks that the bikes will be going through the whoops in 4th gear and that puts alot of stress on those gears and causes them to break. The only other problems I have heard is that the motors are dropping valves. The valves are titanium and the tops of the valves are breaking off and dropping them into the cylinder. They just have to do some redesign which is expected with any new engine. I think that when they get it figured out that it will be a very potent motor in the quad or the bike.

4strokin
03-10-2004, 10:19 PM
are u talkin about the Z engione or the new suzuki 450 engine?

brandonpeake
03-11-2004, 07:00 AM
hes talking about the Z 400

4strokin
03-11-2004, 09:00 AM
well then i'm assuming the titanium valves aren't stock, thats aftermarket right??

SnellCRP
03-11-2004, 09:39 AM
The bike I was referring to was the Suz/Kaw 250 fourstroke. The 450 is not suppost to be released until 05'. As far as the titanium valves they are stock on the 250 bike motor, and I'm not a metallurgist, but I'm guessing that to increase wear characteristics that the valves are heat treated to a high Rockwell hardness and inturn causes them to be somewhat brittle, thats why they break tops off. Also, in the owners manual it says that every 7 races to put a new top end in and split the cases and clean the internal screens. Thats the equivalent of a weekend at the track. I'm sure that when the 450 comes out that these problems will have been addressed and that even a guy that bleeds Honda red would not be afraid of having a little yel/green in his garage. I will try to keep you guys updated if I get any new info. If you have any questions feel free to ask.
;)

4strokin
03-11-2004, 11:49 AM
cool, i hope they address the Ti valve problem and hopefully replace them with stainless steel valves..that would be nice! also do you think the maintenece on the (hopefully) new z450 with be that rigorous like the bikes with a new top end every 7 races? also i hope the water pump/oil filter access is thought through a little more on the 450 so you dont have to drain the coolant everytime you want to change the oil filter on the kx250f. and just by judging on the power of the kx250f campared to other 250f's i think the new 450 will be just as powerful if not more than the competition. i'm so excited!!

SnellCRP
03-11-2004, 12:13 PM
I personally think that they would not have the maintainence on the ATV be so labor intensive unless they sell the bike specifically as a race machine like they do the bikes. With the Ti valves when they get the strength/wear characteristics down the Ti's will do very well. They could change to stainless valves, but they would also have to be heat treated and would be much heaver requiring heavier springs and more rotating weight which may make it rev slower. I am also excited to see what Suz/Kaw will come out swinging with in 05'. Good news for all the Yel/Grn fans.

brandonpeake
03-11-2004, 12:14 PM
so this is the bike that competes against the crf250?
thats insane about 7 races new top end and splitting the cases

SnellCRP
03-11-2004, 12:41 PM
Thats the bike. If you know anyone with one look in the owners manual and it says it in there. I personally thing that is BS! Why would you want something you had to work on that much? Thats like the difference between having a girlfriend or having a wife. You want something you can ride hard and put away wet and when you come back and want to ride again you don't have to take it out for dinner first.:blah:

wrewster
03-11-2004, 12:54 PM
I think he's talking about the prototype Suzuki 450 motor that hasn't been released yet and is just being tested....

brandonpeake
03-11-2004, 01:03 PM
know i think i know the girl he got on the side!

cause the entree aint as good without something on the side!

SnellCRP
03-11-2004, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by brandonpeake
know i think i know the girl he got on the side!

cause the entree aint as good without something on the side!


I couldn't have said it better myself;)

SnellCRP
03-11-2004, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by wrewster
I think he's talking about the prototype Suzuki 450 motor that hasn't been released yet and is just being tested....



The ones having valve and tranny problems are the 250cc foustrokes that are out right now.

tricky17
03-11-2004, 05:06 PM
From what I read somewhere on an MX site and I can't remember which one the Suz/Kawi 250 four stroke was built almost entirely by Kawi, including the motor, Suzuki had very little input and did not like the results therefore they are building the 450 four stroke on their own. Kawasaki had no say in the design of the 450 at all and I don't think they are getting a clone of the Suzuki design. So the Suzuki four stroke motor will have nothing in common with the 250 four stroke motor in the Suz/Kaw clone. If Kawi makes their own 450 based off the design of their 250 motor than these concerns might be valid but they will have little or nothing to do with the Suzuki RMZ-450

robman
03-13-2004, 04:14 PM
I hope suzuki doesn't use an aluminum frame on the 05 z450.Hit a tree and say goodbye,chromoly would be nice but it's too expensive and hard to weld.I don't believe aluminum will stand the test of time.They shoud just mass produce Digger's Z450:devil:

Derno24
03-14-2004, 08:38 AM
Not to differ here, but I have a cannondale and a suzuki and aluminum will stand up to anything thrown at it. I hit a tree stump in 3rd pineed on the dale crushed the bumper and gave me a ton of lumps, but the frame is still straight and as strong as ever. If Suzuki half arses the frame then yeah you are right, but aluminum won't be the problem it will be the design.

popo
03-14-2004, 08:44 AM
I have an LRD Alum, takes the beating no problems.

robman
03-14-2004, 08:31 PM
Well I stand corrected,thanks for the info but shood it be cast or welded toobing?

z400ACDC
03-15-2004, 08:16 AM
I think we can safely say that all frames will break when abused. Some of them will take more than others. The stock Z frame is very weak and should be braced for any serious riding or racing. Building a strong frame is a science. The first Z LRD alum frames had some problems with breaking but, I am sure they have made progress on fixing them. The 250R LRD frame got stronger over time with R&D, but was still weak compared to others.

suzukitony64
04-21-2004, 07:55 PM
look ive been around suzuki's since the 82 1000 cc katana's , gsxr 1000 ,quadzilla and one consistant thing Suzuki does (by the way aint suzuki the ones who started our sport?) is bring out fast ,state of the art and limit pushing machines then they sit back wait for the others best and smoke them again all i know is that the 450z will come out when its ready and better than the rest with new inovations at a real down to earth price , suzuki has new managment not afraid has in the past to push the limits in quading i bet the others are going nuts waiting and watching Gust win on the z400 which by the way i bet is testing platform for ideas for the new z but in the end its all down to rider and thier loyalties:cool: