First truly comparable TRX vs YFZ dyno runs [Archive]

86atc250r

02-07-2004, 01:17 PM

Here they are folks,

Lazarus Sommers of GT Thunder has dyno'd a TRX450R.

Both the quad were stock, dyno'd by the same operator, on the same dyno, in the same condition (bone stock) - with his dyno tires.

Those that are likely to flame - make note that Lazarus is pretty impartial and calls them as he sees them. He is also a YFZ owner. He has no reason to make up numbers or skew results.

Myself and others have been saying for a long time now how close these two quads will be stock - now see for yourself. Also note the torque the TRX is making.

Also note that the TRX did not rev limit where these dynos stop - he said the rev-limit on the TRX is approx 600-700 RPM lower than the YFZ at approx 10,100 RPM or so.

Here ya go. These will also be on his site soon.

http://www.xcracing.com/gabe/dyno.htm

norcalatver

02-07-2004, 01:34 PM

Thanks for posting this Gabe! I'm still gonna wait for Honda to install a happy button before I buy one though.

JWhite

02-07-2004, 01:34 PM

That's great man. Some good info for sure.

kamikaze_rzrbak

02-07-2004, 02:24 PM

looks like some good results, why do you think these look different then dirtwheels?

86atc250r

02-07-2004, 02:31 PM

There are numerous factors - some or all of which may come into play...

1st, the TRX comes with it's throttle adjusted improperly. Lazarus is a top engine builder that knows to check this sort of thing out before trying to do any comparison.

DW has advertiser $$$ to worry about - if you have ever seen their ad pricing, you will know there are some VERY infulential numbers involved.. This can skew results in any of a number of ways.

Lazarus runs his tests with dyno tires. These tires stick to the dyno drum very well so the likelihood of the results being skewed by tire slippage are minimized & by doing this, tires of equal grip and weight are used.

Who knows how DW performed their dyno runs and if different operators were involved - did they specify their test conditions, or even if the runs were performed on the same dyno by the same operator?

seatec

02-07-2004, 02:41 PM

So, you say they had to first mess with the carb before they ran it on the dyno?

86atc250r

02-07-2004, 02:47 PM

No, just perform a routine throttle adjustment.

This is something everyone should do to their machines periodically & should always check on a new quad.

Unfortunately, very few people actually do.

jeff1984

02-07-2004, 02:47 PM

i think he meant that he had to adjust the amount of slack or play the throttle had at the lever. i know my 400ex came out of wack.

jarsong

02-07-2004, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by 86atc250r
Here they are folks,

Lazarus Sommers of GT Thunder has dyno'd a TRX450R.

Both the quad were stock, dyno'd by the same operator, on the same dyno, in the same condition (bone stock) - with his dyno tires.

Those that are likely to flame - make note that Lazarus is pretty impartial and calls them as he sees them. He is also a YFZ owner. He has no reason to make up numbers or skew results.

Myself and others have been saying for a long time now how close these two quads will be stock - now see for yourself. Also note the torque the TRX is making.

Also note that the TRX did not rev limit where these dynos stop - he said the rev-limit on the TRX is approx 600-700 RPM lower than the YFZ at approx 10,100 RPM or so.

Here ya go. These will also be on his site soon.

http://www.xcracing.com/gabe/dyno.htm

By the dip in the Yamaha Dyno after the start it appear to have had the Cam mod done without jetting. This would also explain the lower end torque numbers.
On Edit: Having said that I don't think anyone can logicly argue that these bike won't be so close in performance that each will take each other on any given day.
jarsong

JWhite

02-07-2004, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by jarsong
By the dip in the Yamaha Dyno after the start it appear to have had the Cam mod done without jetting. This would also explain the lower end torque numbers.
On Edit: Having said that I don't think anyone can logicly argue that these bike won't be so close in performance that each will take each other on any given day.
jarsong

He said they were both STOCK. :devil:

r450rr

02-07-2004, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by JWhite
He said they were both STOCK. :devil:

he said it and the website stated it..:D

GOM,, look at that torque

jarsong

02-07-2004, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by r450rr
he said it and the website stated it..:D

GOM,, look at that torque

Honda engineered the bike for more torque than it's 2 wheeled cousin. Should make for plenty of fun on the trails/tracks this year!!
jarsong

jarsong

02-07-2004, 03:35 PM

Here is what most of the stock curves have looked like to me unless the Cam mod was done without jetting.

http://www.ctracing.com/yfz450.htm
http://www.gasgasatv.com/images/yfzdyno.jpg
http://www.nzjensen.co.nz/images/Dynoruns.jpg
These are also consistant with Dirtwheels Curve in there test. .

Cam mod dyno...
http://www.gtthunder.com/YfzDyno5.html
jarsong

markeg192

02-07-2004, 03:35 PM

GOM,, look at that torque

And which one will get up a hill or through a mudhole better do you think???

JWhite

02-07-2004, 04:15 PM

Torque will pull you of a corner better and get you the speed you need to hit that jump fast enough to make that tripple. :macho

Barely legal

02-07-2004, 05:14 PM

Impressive. The Honda had a good show.

Foxrage

02-07-2004, 05:15 PM

I like those results lol...1 horse power for an extra 400 dollars isnt worth it...you can go way past that with the money you will save. and the torgue is what im really intrested in and thats what i want. I finally had a chance to ride one yesturday. hopefully gettim mine sometime next week.

2004TRX450R

02-07-2004, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by jarsong
Here is what most of the stock curves have looked like to me unless the Cam mod was done without jetting.

http://www.ctracing.com/yfz450.htm
http://www.gasgasatv.com/images/yfzdyno.jpg
http://www.nzjensen.co.nz/images/Dynoruns.jpg
These are also consistant with Dirtwheels Curve in there test. .

Cam mod dyno...
http://www.gtthunder.com/YfzDyno5.html
jarsong

It really depens on how the have the graph set up. If you have the smoothing way up it will smooth some of that out. Also if you look there is the dip in the stock run in the cam mod dyno run you posted just not as drastic. It is probably a slight lean spot possibly from them wacking the throttle open to quick or possibly from the taper at the needle or the pilot screw could be set a little lean. Without an A/F reading it is hard to say for sure though. The CRF I did dyno runs on today had a similar dip in it after I installed a jet kit in it. It made 46.7 stock, 50.0 with a Hindle full system adn 51.0 with the full system and jet kit.

Originally posted by Foxrage
I like those results lol...1 horse power for an extra 400 dollars isnt worth it...you can go way past that with the money you will save. and the torgue is what im really intrested in and thats what i want. I finally had a chance to ride one yesturday. hopefully gettim mine sometime next week.

And that 1 hp is just a little spike over a small rpm range. Torque is what get's you moveing. Looking at this graph the Honda will be the one in front at the end of the strip.

Maxx_Action

02-07-2004, 07:18 PM

And that 1 hp is just a little spike over a small rpm range. Torque is what get's you moveing. Looking at this graph the Honda will be the one in front at the end of the strip. [/B]

Hey TRX...

A litle experience from another field of endeavour. I used to play with street rods. My favorites were old Ponitac firebirds and trans ams. I had a 74 TA with a built 72 SD 455 that made like 550 Ftlbs of torque, and probably close to 400 hp. With the stroke the thing had it was only good for about 5500 rpm. Regardless the thing was a beast. I could hold it in first gear up to about 35 MPH and punch it and it would smoke the tires. Anyway, I beat everybody in this car until one of my friends ported and polished a bored 327. He was breathin strong to about 7200 RPm. probably makin around the same hp or maybe a little more, less torque, but breathin strong for a lot further. So we race and he beats me. When we came off the line, I jumped him by about 5 car lengths and held that til about half way through the quarter, then by the end of the quarter he had passed me and was pullin away strong. We raced every weekend for months with the result always the same or similar. Torque is great, but high revving horsepower has it's advantages too. Either way, it's gonna be a fun summer, don't ya think? http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/9/biggthum.gif

Maxx

BigAl

02-07-2004, 08:51 PM

That is good info.
We all know the old saying, you can't race a dyno.

From the first time the specs were published, I expected this motor to be a torque monster, and it seems that is about right.

I finally rode one today. It was up and down a wet blacktop road, behind the dealership, so it isn't a very good test.

I did ride it enough to know that it is very smooth power. It doesn't have any hit at all in the powerband, but i expect it is just as fast as my YFZ anyway. My YFZ does have a hit to it, and that makes it fun, but not necessarily faster, or better.

The TRX doesn't seem to rev as fast either.

This is the best possible situation that I can see, with both machines being about even in power and handling, that will give us more choices and might even cause the factories to update their models more often that every 20 years. :D

BTW it seems that the a-arms WILL NOT interchange, so I owe Jnine an apology, and someone $1. :D

I

jarsong

02-08-2004, 12:51 AM

Originally posted by 2004TRX450R
The CRF I did dyno runs on today had a similar dip in it after I installed a jet kit in it. It made 46.7 stock, 50.0 with a Hindle full system adn 51.0 with the full system and jet kit.

That's some serious HP. Awesome. I'd love to break 50 with my YFZ. ....
jarsong

2004TRX450R

02-08-2004, 02:18 AM

Originally posted by BigAl

We all know the old saying, you can't race a dyno.

Actually the original dos based programming from Dynojet had a section on it where you could enter the bikes weigh and it would show a drag race between two bikes based on the dyno run. So you kinda can race a dyno!:devil:

Originally posted by Maxx_Action
Hey TRX...

A litle experience from another field of endeavour. I used to play with street rods. My favorites were old Ponitac firebirds and trans ams. I had a 74 TA with a built 72 SD 455 that made like 550 Ftlbs of torque, and probably close to 400 hp. With the stroke the thing had it was only good for about 5500 rpm. Regardless the thing was a beast. I could hold it in first gear up to about 35 MPH and punch it and it would smoke the tires. Anyway, I beat everybody in this car until one of my friends ported and polished a bored 327. He was breathin strong to about 7200 RPm. probably makin around the same hp or maybe a little more, less torque, but breathin strong for a lot further. So we race and he beats me. When we came off the line, I jumped him by about 5 car lengths and held that til about half way through the quarter, then by the end of the quarter he had passed me and was pullin away strong. We raced every weekend for months with the result always the same or similar. Torque is great, but high revving horsepower has it's advantages too. Either way, it's gonna be a fun summer, don't ya think? http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/9/biggthum.gif

Maxx

Yup Torque is what get's you moveing. That is why you jumped him so well off the line. HP is what keeps you going. But you are kinda compareing apples to oranges. Also what were the two cars and how heavy were they? That will have a major impact on how fast they are. The TRX and YFZ are both pretty compareable in rpm range. So one isn't going to be running off and leaveing the other from haveing more rpm to play with such as in your case.

MIA450R

02-08-2004, 07:59 AM

Thanks for the post, Gabe...and thanks for the non-biased dyno runs Lazarus.

Regardless of the results, I am thrilled to see some CONTROLLED dyno runs (same op, proper tires, completely stock bikes, etc) between these 2 beasts. Not to knock HMF or anyone else, but you HAVE to control as many variables as possible to get a decent comparison in a test like this.

Any idea whether he will be doing some controlled modded dyno runs now? Such as HRC TRX vs YFZ w/similar mods? We all know how well the YFZ responds to mods (due to it being all bound up by the stock exhaust) I would love to see how well the TRX responds to similar mods on some controlled dyno runs.

Personally, I still think the TRX was MEANT to have the HRC kit installed (just as the YFZ has the YZ-F cam), and a fair comparison should be an HRC TRX (with a good pipe & matching jetting) vs a YFZ with GYT-R exhaust (with or without cam mod???)

Yes? No?

LoL YFZ guys are already crying foul at YFZCentral. Improperly jetted, slipping tires, etc. Too funny. Oh well, to each his own. I'm thrilled to see the 2 performing so similarly in stock form, but still want to see some equivalently-modded dyno runs.

MIA450R

02-08-2004, 08:29 AM

Hey....

If you go directly to the GTThunder site and look at the description of the dyno runs...Laz says:

"Interesting thing with the Honda was the ignition was going into a double spark condition at 8400 rpm. The Honda was hitting the rev limiter at 9200 rpm, however on the runs below you will see the graph for the honda stop at 8400 rpm on all the runs that are based on rpm."

What is this double spark condition, and why did the dyno stop recording the curve at 8400rpm? Also, everything we have read thusfar says the TRX rev limit is 9850rpm...why is he saying 9200?

Maxx_Action

02-08-2004, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by MIA450R
Hey....

If you go directly to the GTThunder site and look at the description of the dyno runs...Laz says:

"Interesting thing with the Honda was the ignition was going into a double spark condition at 8400 rpm. The Honda was hitting the rev limiter at 9200 rpm, however on the runs below you will see the graph for the honda stop at 8400 rpm on all the runs that are based on rpm."

What is this double spark condition, and why did the dyno stop recording the curve at 8400rpm? Also, everything we have read thusfar says the TRX rev limit is 9850rpm...why is he saying 9200?

Yeah Mia..

I saw that too and it had me puzzled as well. I thought I read in dirt wheels that the TRX was limited at 10,100 RPM. Naybe I dreamt it. Anyway, double spark? WTF...

Maxx

86atc250r

02-08-2004, 01:23 PM

When I spoke to Lazarus yesterday he said 10,100~10,200.

Maxx - your tone and demeanor here is very different than when you post on YFZ central. What gives? Trying to impress the yamaha crowd over there or us over here?

jarsong

02-08-2004, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by MIA450R
Personally, I still think the TRX was MEANT to have the HRC kit installed (just as the YFZ has the YZ-F cam), and a fair comparison should be an HRC TRX (with a good pipe & matching jetting) vs a YFZ with GYT-R exhaust (with or without cam mod???)

Yes? No?

LoL YFZ guys are already crying foul at YFZCentral. Improperly jetted, slipping tires, etc. Too funny. Oh well, to each his own. I'm thrilled to see the 2 performing so similarly in stock form, but still want to see some equivalently-modded dyno runs.

I agree that the two bike are both detuned from the factory. I'd say to try to diminish lawsuits.
As far as people crying foul, to me, there does seem to be a variable that missing. Meaning the HP curve looks looks nothing like a stock one published that I've seen anywhere from any pipe testers, or dyno sheets from personal runs. Then the flip side it matches EXACTLY like a miss jetted cam modded bike. Could everyone else be wrong and this one be right? Also initial tests from mags and some weekend rides do show the YFZ winning, not by much, but still winning. Even after trading drivers in some cases.
By the graphs from Gabe you see the TRX hold a huge advantage until peak in HP and TQ. What gives? How do you suppose you can hold this sort of Dyno advantage, which to me appears huge when talking 375 pound bikes and not win every race hands down? COuld he have got the colors backwards? :D
jarsong

86atc250r

02-08-2004, 02:48 PM

What it looks like to me is some YFZ owners are desperately looking for somthing to cling to.

Even in the dyno's you posted you can see the flat spot in the YFZ's power that shows up in these dyno readings.

Why is it so difficult to believe that maybe, just maybe - these quads are more equally matched than some of you at first believed?

As far as other dyno readings - some are skewed by not running tires that remove the slippage variables that can occur. Some can't be compared because they aren't performed by the same operator under the same conditions (i.e. using different tires, different dynos, etc). Yet others can't be compared because there is no guarantee the operator fixed the throttle before running the test.

I posted these runs because they meet all the criteria. Same dyno, same operator, same tires, same level of tune (stock with throttles opening fully).

After spending some time on my 450R and knowing what a YFZ is capable of, I'm pretty confident in these dyno results.

I think many of you are in for a very big surprise when you get your first ride on a 450R or you line up next to one that's got it's throttle adjusted right.

It's your choice if you decide to keep your head in the sand & keep the rhetoric going or if you accept the facts and enjoy the sport & choices we have today.

Maxx_Action

02-08-2004, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by 86atc250r
When I spoke to Lazarus yesterday he said 10,100~10,200.

Maxx - your tone and demeanor here is very different than when you post on YFZ central. What gives? Trying to impress the yamaha crowd over there or us over here?

???http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/d/spy.gif

Please elaborate.

I don't think that I have ever bashed the honda, or been up my Hoorah box for the YFZ...

Maxx

86atc250r

02-08-2004, 03:37 PM

Just noticed one of your posts on YFZ Central. Maybe I took it wrong - if so I apologize.

Pappy

02-08-2004, 03:40 PM

gabe whats your take on the double spark issue?

Maxx_Action

02-08-2004, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by 86atc250r
Just noticed one of your posts on YFZ Central. Maybe I took it wrong - if so I apologize.

Hey..

I went back and searched all of my posts thinking maybe I wasn't as objective as I had hoped? Anyway, the last one I posted might have been a little edgy. The comment about some Honda guys beatin their chests may have been uncalled for. But the rest of the post says what I think is true, that their will be a bit more of a disparity between the two when equally modded. Don't get me wrong, I think the Honda is sweet, but Yamaha went more after a "race-bred" feel with the YFZ motor and I think they got it. I do think though that if you up the compression on the HOnda, put in a hotter cam, a good filter, a good pipe, and a free flowing intake that the Honda engine will be a more, ummmm, "user friendly" powerplant. My bad if anyone was offended.

Maxx

oldsandman

02-08-2004, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by Pappy
gabe whats your take on the double spark issue?

Don't know if this is what they are refering to but here it is at least as it relates in theory harleys:

If you have a sufficient fuel flow in a single spark mode you have enough to operate in the Multi-Spark mode without engine damage because you are burning residual fuel, even though your plugs may show a lean burn. This will normally show an increase in fuel economy, horse power and a reduction of emissions output. You could increase the fuel for more horsepower but you should be careful not to over fuel, because if the fuel is not burned by the secondary spark it is exhausted as burning fuel through you exhaust system increasing heat and reducing horsepower output because of an improper air/fuel mixture. This also results in increased emissions output, which is unnecessary.

02-08-2004, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by 86atc250r

Why is it so difficult to believe that maybe, just maybe - these quads are more equally matched than some of you at first believed?

Let them see it first hand, instead of talkin BS:devil:

I was eager to see the "real time tests" of the trx against a yfz

the first time i rode a trx I noticed the bottom end difference immediatley(first time i got on the gas) I gave out a nice hoot and hollar when i felt the power band. It is definately A bike you could ride all day.

besides the 400ex ignition, one wouldnt not have to worry about engine failures due to high revving with the trx450 compared to the 400ex. no worries of studds being pulledand engine life being cut in half due to a spark advance and rev limiter cut off.

I really think these new four strokes when worked properly will hold there own against any worked 2 stroke.

we shall see:)

sparky450AR

02-08-2004, 05:14 PM

The reason i BOUGHT the honda was because it has more torque and it weighs less....i dont care what yamaha or honda claims on there website because neither number is completely accurate, but i do know the trx is lighter. i picked them up while they were side by side, trust me the trx is lighter! but i really like both bikes!

Bad Habit

02-08-2004, 05:28 PM

So does the CDI on this type of ignition have a "multi spark"? Meaning, it gives a second pulse to the plug after the first inital firing? If so, does the 450R have this kind of CDI?

I would just like to add that this thread is exactly what we need in this forum. Gabe, as usual, has provided some very good infomation AND he is able to substantiate and debate his information in a factual and mature (non-threatening) manner. Keep it coming guys, I can feel my brain getting bigger. :D

Originally posted by oldsandman
Don't know if this is what they are refering to but here it is at least as it relates in theory harleys:

If you have a sufficient fuel flow in a single spark mode you have enough to operate in the Multi-Spark mode without engine damage because you are burning residual fuel, even though your plugs may show a lean burn. This will normally show an increase in fuel economy, horse power and a reduction of emissions output. You could increase the fuel for more horsepower but you should be careful not to over fuel, because if the fuel is not burned by the secondary spark it is exhausted as burning fuel through you exhaust system increasing heat and reducing horsepower output because of an improper air/fuel mixture. This also results in increased emissions output, which is unnecessary.

thomez

02-08-2004, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by sparky450AR
The reason i BOUGHT the honda was because it has more torque and it weighs less....i dont care what yamaha or honda claims on there website because neither number is completely accurate, but i do know the trx is lighter. i picked them up while they were side by side, trust me the trx is lighter! but i really like both bikes!

Remember that the Yamaha loses quite a few pounds going to the kicker. Not trying to flame but you have to compare apples to apples.

oldsandman

02-08-2004, 05:42 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bad Habit
[B]So does the CDI on this type of ignition have a "multi spark"? Meaning, it gives a second pulse to the plug after the first inital firing? If so, does the 450R have this kind of CDI?

Anybody up to speed on this Hondas ignition system? I'm really out of my depth when talking about this. I was hoping someone else with ignition expertise would sound off.

2004TRX450R

02-09-2004, 01:37 AM

Originally posted by thomez
Remember that the Yamaha loses quite a few pounds going to the kicker. Not trying to flame but you have to compare apples to apples.

I belive he was talking apples to apples. He was refering to two stock bikes with no mods. The Honda is lighter. Ya you can install the kick starter on the yami but you can remove weight from the Honda too.

I had a chance to ride both bikes side by side today and this is what I think. The Yamaha does fell like it has more power and it feels like it has more down low in the rpm range than the Honda. The TRX feels like it just pulls for ever. Several of us rode them back to back and the majority said they liked the power of the YFZ better. It felt stronger. Also most liked the suspension, seat, and ergonomics of the Honda better. I think only 2 people out of 5 liked the way they sat on the YFZ but noone liked the seat. All but one person liked my TRX better overall than the YFZ but the one girl that rode it had a hard time starting my TRX. She was a begining rider and used to starting a Banshee. Not that it is hard to start by any mean but she just doesn't have any technique in starting it. Then we drag raced. I weigh about 230 and the guy on the YFZ weighs about 160. The first race I screwd up the start and wheelied it. He had about a bike length on me when I got it moveing and we stayed pretty much the same distance the entire race. Then we raced on the way back both getting an equal start. We were both neck and neck the whole race. So these bikes are VERY close in power. My brother rode it back to the truck and said on the whoops it just couldn't be ridded fast enough. He said he just kept giveing it more throttle and it just kept going faster and it just soaked them up. He couldn't get it going to fast to handle them. I just can't wait until I get my hi comp piston and head work done. Then I think I will get a Duncan full system and it will be done for awhile until I can recoup some funds.

seatec

02-09-2004, 06:21 AM

I think your right. THe TRX in stock trim is very powerfull. I remember it from the CRF450 days and the engine cant be THAT far away from the CRF450 trim. I do belief that the YFZ is very bottled up in stock trim. A little more than the TRX.

I think having a stock for stock dyno run can teach us something but i think that we should have another true dyno run with the standards mods done to both the TRX and YFZ. e.g. Pipe, jets, Airbox and cam. That will give us some more real life insight into what these machines can really do. My bet is that again they will be really close in performance. All in All. YOU can't go wrong with either. ( Im probably the millionth person to say that) :D

thomez

02-09-2004, 06:44 AM

I understand that comparing 2 stock bikes is fair.... but you know what I mean. Isn't it just as fair to compare 2 kickstart bikes?

Doesn't matter I guess. Continue on.

jarsong

02-09-2004, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by 2004TRX450R
So these bikes are VERY close in power.

This was sort of my point in an earlier post. These bikes are SO close in power, yet these Dyno's from gabe say different. By them the 450R should be able to roll a YFZ pretty easily. Opposite is true. SO then the real point is the title of this thread. "First truly comparable TRX vs YFZ dyno runs"... THere have been MANY dyno runs now that are also "truly" done that tell a different story which is backed up at the dragstrip. Not flaming the 450R at all because any operator error at all in a drag will cause you to loose to the other.
jarsong

86atc250r

02-09-2004, 12:36 PM

:huh What?!?

See the dyno run based upon speed. That's exactly what these runs show is these quads are nearly identical in power output, they just do it a little differently.

02-09-2004, 12:54 PM

That dyno must be photochopped. I heard the Yammi had like 18 more ponies than the honda..:eek:

Seems pretty cut and dry. The honda is a torque monster with tons of bottom end and the yamaha is a topend speed demon. Hasn't this been the rule of thumb for both companies, one bottom end the other topend:confused:

I'd say with it being done by Laz under all conditions mentioned by Gabe. That this is the first TRUE test we have seen. If anybody has a beef with it, then go cry on another webpage we DON"T wanna here your poor excuses anymore..:blah:

BigAl

02-09-2004, 04:01 PM

I bet Laz was using Hoosier tires, everybody knows that Yamahas run better with Ohtsu slicks.

See, he was trying to manipulate the results.

Guy400

02-09-2004, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by BigAl
I bet Laz was using Hoosier tires, everybody knows that Yamahas run better with Ohtsu slicks.

See, he was trying to manipulate the results. LMAO...:D

I think what people are forgetting with previous dyno runs by other companies was that they were not done on the same day and we're not even sure if it was by the same operator. Sparks, HMF and many other companies have dynoed these quads independantly. Weather and atmospheric conditions would have obviously been different given the runs were made literally months apart. They also don't specify whether or not it was the same person operating the dyno. What Laz has shown us is what two totally stock bikes (minus dyno tires) will do on the same day, with the same weather, performed by the same operator. You can agree or disagree with the results but Laz has proven himself in the past to not skew the numbers. In fact, I didn't hear any YFZ owners crying foul on GT Thunder's dyno when the run was posted showing nearly 50hp. Some people believed that run but refuse to accept this newest one of stock machines (despite this being the same dyno and same operator).

oldsandman

02-09-2004, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by Guy400
LMAO...:D

I think what people are forgetting with previous dyno runs by other companies was that they were not done on the same day and we're not even sure if it was by the same operator. Sparks, HMF and many other companies have dynoed these quads independantly. Weather and atmospheric conditions would have obviously been different given the runs were made literally months apart. They also don't specify whether or not it was the same person operating the dyno. What Laz has shown us is what two totally stock bikes (minus dyno tires) will do on the same day, with the same weather, performed by the same operator. You can agree or disagree with the results but Laz has proven himself in the past to not skew the numbers. In fact, I didn't hear any YFZ owners crying foul on GT Thunder's dyno when the run was posted showing nearly 50hp. Some people believed that run but refuse to accept this newest one of stock machines (despite this being the same dyno and same operator).

We have a winner here!!!!:D The first controlled test of both quads. It's all about eliminating the variables.

trout

02-09-2004, 04:40 PM

Just an observation:

Laz stated that he "adjusted the throttle cable" and another couple of guys on here, cant remember who, doesnt matter, said they got their bike and had to adjust the throttle cable as well. They noticed that it, the carb, wasnt getting fully opened with the cable adjusted as it was from the dealer.

SO:
Is it possible Honda did this to cork the motor a little to make it "safer" and produce less power? So essentually is that part of the "factory" detuning to keep it mild. If so, perhaps DirtWheels in their infinite wisdom, hear the sarcasm, didnt know or do this.

Just a thought,

Another thought, what do you think the YFZ will be like "IF" it gets another 10cc's next year?

trout

jb500ex

02-09-2004, 05:59 PM

give the yfz 10 more cc's and give the honda the same compression piston and let's go

trout

02-09-2004, 06:17 PM

I think your right, dead even again.

Whats your favorite Color?

trout

Bad Habit

02-09-2004, 06:29 PM

One thing to remember also is that there is a difference between fast and quick. Both bikes show very similar speed curves, but how long did each one take to get to a given speed? I am curious as to what the elapsed time would be for each bike at predetermined speed intervals. My guess is that the TRX would get up to speed faster due to the resulting higher toruqe curve.

Any thoughts on this? Anyone?

Hey, now that we have some factual side by side dyno comparisons, we need to find something else to speculate about. :blah:

trout

02-09-2004, 07:03 PM

Dont know about that, Drag races are essentually the same thing, and they seem to flip flop on those,
Pretty even,

So I dont think it gets there any faster, or revvs faster.

Might be wrong

trout:cool:

r450rr

02-09-2004, 07:59 PM

mcdonalds:::: im lovin it..!!!

anyways what else can we talk about now everything is settling down(not like thats a bad thing), but what else can we debate on..

mine is supposed to be in by the end of this week.. lats debate on that..lool

jarsong

02-09-2004, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by r450rr
mcdonalds:::: im lovin it..!!!

anyways what else can we talk about now everything is settling down(not like thats a bad thing), but what else can we debate on..

mine is supposed to be in by the end of this week.. lats debate on that..lool

What other color scheme's would you like to see the 450R in??
jarsong

r450rr

02-09-2004, 09:16 PM

lol.. i am not sure, i like the red an black myself , not really honda looking if its anyother way, it would be nice to see a white one like the 250's, i am sure they will change the seat color every now an then, and graphics. heck they may even produce a yellow one , but i am real happy with the red/black color combo.. (prolly my favorite color combo) regardless of what its on

Maxx_Action

02-09-2004, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by jarsong
What other color scheme's would you like to see the 450R in??
jarsong

ehhh, errr, uhhh, ummm...

Maybe Blue and silver, or how about yellow and black? http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/9/biggthum.gif

J/K

Maxx

2004TRX450R

02-10-2004, 01:04 AM

Originally posted by trout
Is it possible Honda did this to cork the motor a little to make it "safer" and produce less power? So essentually is that part of the "factory" detuning to keep it mild. If so, perhaps DirtWheels in their infinite wisdom, hear the sarcasm, didnt know or do this.

No. Every Honda ATV that has come into the shop for a PDI that I have ever worked on has the cable adjuster all the way in. It should have been adjusted by the dealership during the PDI. If it wasn't I wonder what else they didn't do. Are your guys' air filters oiled? What else did they miss?

Jonas

02-10-2004, 05:55 AM

Going to the original thread. I still haven't seen a dyno match up with the trx450r and yfz450, where the yfz dyno looks at all better stock to stock. Has anyone seen one??? People are talking like stock to stock the yfz has more power, not sure about this???

ATC83

02-10-2004, 06:34 AM

Originally posted by MARK LEIBOLD
Going to the original thread. I still haven't seen a dyno match up with the trx450r and yfz450, where the yfz dyno looks at all better stock to stock. Has anyone seen one??? People are talking like stock to stock the yfz has more power, not sure about this???

I've seen several dyno runs comparing the two where the Honda made less power. They have been posted on this forum before. They were by HMF and CT Racing as well as several other pipe manufactures. I don't know much about dynos but it seems a little suspicious that four or five pipe manufactures get nearly the same results as well as several magazines and while GT Thunder gets something totally different. My question is this, why would a company like HMF release faulty dyno numbers. I consider them one of the best pipe manufacturers in business today? Wouldn't they just be shooting themselves in the foot trying to flame Honda riders inaccurately stating the horsepower out put of the TRX450s engine? According to HMF they stand behind their dyno numbers. These are the results they used to develope the exhausts for the TRX450. If you can’t trust the research they are doing with their dyno why would anyone by a pipe from them? Something is going on with these dyno numbers and I don't think atmospheric conditions, tuning or tires can explain it. If it were just a few horsepower or foot pounds of torque maybe, but that's not the case here.

Maxx_Action

02-10-2004, 06:36 AM

Originally posted by 2004TRX450R
No. Every Honda ATV that has come into the shop for a PDI that I have ever worked on has the cable adjuster all the way in. It should have been adjusted by the dealership during the PDI. If it wasn't I wonder what else they didn't do. Are your guys' air filters oiled? What else did they miss?

Man...

the ones I saw yesterday at the shop BOTH had at least a half inch of play in the throttle. I took the seat off of one and the prep guys hadn't even cleaned that gooey transport coating off of it under there. Some of these guys have no clue what they are doing...

Maxx

Jonas

02-10-2004, 07:01 AM

I still haven't seen a dyno of a yfz450 and 450r at the same time on a dyno ...STOCK..., where the yfz450 has a favorable result over the 450r. The only ones that I have seen are in Dirt wheels and at GT thunder. Both of these graphs make the 450r look better. The 450r has a very smooth power curve and the yfz just "pops" up and beats it at peak HP. We all know that we ride all over the RPM range. Overall, this leads me to believe that Dirt Wheels is correct, no matter how funny that sounds, that they both are dead even in a drag race. Give me the link if you can. Thanks for any help on this.

thomez

02-10-2004, 07:05 AM

If HMF wasn't a sponsor here I'd give you my real opinion on that question! :devil:

Pappy

02-10-2004, 07:08 AM

Originally posted by thomez
If HMF wasn't a sponsor here I'd give you my real opinion on that question! :devil:

youre free to state your opinion, just be prepared to back up your information:p

jarsong

02-10-2004, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by MARK LEIBOLD
The only ones that I have seen are in Dirt wheels and at GT thunder. Both of these graphs make the 450r look better.

?? I must not know how to read Dyno reports I guess. THe dirt wheels to me showed a clear advantage to the Yami which has now been backed up by drag races over and over..... I think it was almost a 4HP difference and that was without the free 30 minute cam mod.... I think now I understand the Dyno based on speed that was mentioned. This reall shows how close they are based on how fast they are spinning the rollers?? Almost a dead heat on the dyno. It's the other report that have me scratching my head....
jarsong

Jonas

02-10-2004, 08:04 AM

Ok, I wouldn't actually buy a Dirt Wheels mag but I just looked at it on the news stand. I am assuming I am wrong, but I thought I saw the Honda having more power up until a momentary peak where the yfz had more. I guess I'll have to look at it again. It seemed to look very similar to the gt thunder dyno here, except that it only showed 5,000 RPM's and up. I am assuming you know that a peak horsepower reading is not everything.

jarsong

02-10-2004, 08:10 AM

Then there is also the Dirt Wheels factor.... I mean really, who knows.... Just linem up and drag them, switch riders and do it again. See who wins. I still contend the they will be so close that any error from either driver will cause them to loose. I think with the lighter front end on the 450R the Yami has a slight advantage here.
jarsong

Guy400

02-10-2004, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by ATC83
I've seen several dyno runs comparing the two where the Honda made less power. They have been posted on this forum before. They were by HMF and CT Racing as well as several other pipe manufactures. I don't know much about dynos but it seems a little suspicious that four or five pipe manufactures get nearly the same results as well as several magazines and while GT Thunder gets something totally different. My question is this, why would a company like HMF release faulty dyno numbers. I consider them one of the best pipe manufacturers in business today? Wouldn't they just be shooting themselves in the foot trying to flame Honda riders inaccurately stating the horsepower out put of the TRX450s engine? According to HMF they stand behind their dyno numbers. These are the results they used to develope the exhausts for the TRX450. If you can’t trust the research they are doing with their dyno why would anyone by a pipe from them? Something is going on with these dyno numbers and I don't think atmospheric conditions, tuning or tires can explain it. If it were just a few horsepower or foot pounds of torque maybe, but that's not the case here. You obviously didn't see HMF's response here regarding their dyno pull of the 450R. They stated that they only had the quad for a couple of days and most of that time was used to fit up a pipe for it. They ran the quad on the dyno with some ballpark jetting and stock tires. They went on to say that they wish they had some more time to tweak the jetting further but the quad they had needed to be returned. They also said that future dynos will be run with dyno tires. On top of that, HMF's pull on the 450R wasn't immediately followed up by a YFZ so we can't say what the comparison would've been given the same weather and same operator. Again, we're back to someone saying that "atmospheric conditions, tuning or tires" can't explain why HMF's dyno showed the YFZ so far ahead in horsepower yet GT Thunder showed the TRX ahead. Some of these same people are quick to cry "lean jetting" as the YFZ's falter around 4k RPM. Which is it? Does weather, jetting and tires affect the dyno or doesn't it? You can't argue that it doesn't matter on HMF's dyno and then argue it does matter on GT Thunder's.