Dean for prez??? Not if you want to ride.... [Archive]

dirtgirl

01-21-2004, 03:48 PM

I found this on one of the other forums I read and thought you guys might like to know before you decide to vote for him....

I found this on another forum i read and thought I had better pass on the info.. Good to know these things BEFORE election day....

As unsavory is it may be to many of us, it's my experience that it
really does matter that we as riders participate in politics. So as we
move toward November 2004, it is important to ask any given local or
national candidate how pro- or anti-OHV he or she is.
That said, I will always steer clear of telling you how to think, but
please do consider the following evidence and make your own decisions:

On former VT Governor, Dr. Howard Dean, Democratic nomination contestant
for Pres.-`04, VT OHV advocate Todd Sheinfeld had this to say:
"...I had several conversations with Howard Dean over the years, one on
[VT radio program] Switchboard many years ago. In that exchange, the
former Governor expressed to me that he did not like, nor see any use
for, ATVs and the fact that they are not allowed on public land in VT
(whether federal or state) was a great accomplishment. He further told
me that if he, as Governor, could outlaw ATV use on private land he
would do it in a second..."
[From Todd's article at
http://www.vtvasa.org/sitebuildercontent/s.../myjourneytotruenorth.pdf

Todd also directs us to the very telling paragraph copied below from the
"LA Weekly." (Full article: "The Doctor is In: Rolling with
people-powered Howard Dean..." see
http://www.laweekly.com/ink/03/41/features-wolf.php

[On the recent "preservation" in Vermont of 133,000 acres of the former
Champion Paper Company lands, Jamie Wolf wrote:]
"[Dean] and his team used the NRA, he says, to neutralize the most
ardent property-rights Republicans in the legislature. They then went to
the snowmobilers and explained that although there would be a wilderness
area off-limits to them, there would be other areas they could utilize.
They used that concession, he goes on, to get the snowmobilers' help in
supporting the exclusion of ATVs: "You can't compromise with ATVers
under any circumstances, they just do too much damage to the land..." In
other words, Dean says, you assemble the broadest coalition possible and
then parcel out something for everybody. "Now, it can't be everybody,
because there's always those on the extreme edge of the right who want
to clear-cut everything, that's their idea of sustainable timbering..."
But in general, he says, you work with all the stakeholders, and then if
one element of the coalition starts to defect, if the snowmobilers, say,
try to link up with the ATVers, which they sometimes threaten to do,
"you put the leverage on. You say, 'If it's a choice between letting the
ATVs in or keeping the snowmobile people out - sorry, we'll see you
later.' And that brings the snowmobilers back to the table...""

So while Dean is openly demonstrating his skill at pitting groups
against each other in order to get what he wants, he also announces to
the world without reservation his extreme contempt for wheeled-OHV
interests.

One thing I can credit Dean for is his honesty and openness. It may not
be so easy to determine any other candidates' real feelings about OHV
recreation. I'll be looking for these answers myself.

- - - - - -
Alex Ernst
www.nysorva.org
www.nyatvsafety.net

MOFO

01-21-2004, 03:57 PM

It would be a cold day in hell before I vote for a liberal democrat..

I think watching Dean after the Iowa caucus really showed his colors... he's a loose cannon! Democrat+loose cannon=danger in my book.

kgbg

01-21-2004, 03:58 PM

he is a freaky guy.
DO NOT VOTE FOR HIM
Thanks for the info!

chucked

01-21-2004, 04:03 PM

i seriously dougbt atv's will ever be outlawed, the market is huge and he would be screwing himself over.

MOFO

01-21-2004, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by chucked
i seriously dougbt atv's will ever be outlawed, the market is huge and he would be screwing himself over.

NEVER under estimate the power of a liberal in power!

dirtgirl

01-21-2004, 04:06 PM

Well it appears that he did manage to pretty much ban them in VT according to that post.

Crazy4bluEx

01-21-2004, 04:06 PM

i will be eligable for the vote coming november....an i can tell you this, if my vote is the tie breaker..... BUSH will be in office once again! He's done a great job in my book.

remlapr

01-21-2004, 04:20 PM

I don't like Dean and this is just one more reason.

polabareus

01-21-2004, 04:25 PM

If Dean became President I would call John Hinckley and tell him that Dean physically abused Jodi Foster. :devil:

kgbg

01-21-2004, 04:26 PM

Thats some funny ****

justdirt

01-21-2004, 04:27 PM

2 million jobs have moved out of the country since bush as taken office. great job i don't think so. oh but let me guess it was probably all clinton's fault wasn't it. i remember an old guy i used to work with told me one time, vote for your job, preach for your hobby. what good is a hobby if you can't afford to do it.

Guy400

01-21-2004, 04:30 PM

Eric, I'm glad I'm not the only one on this board that watched Dean's press conference after the Iowa caucuses. That guy was off the deep end! Rolling his sleeves up, shouting until his voice was shrill and could his face get any redder? With a liberal democrat in office we'll surrender to al Queda faster than France surrendered to Germany:mad: I'm not a party-line voter but Dean is waaayyy too far left for me.

Crazy4bluEx

01-21-2004, 04:30 PM

2 million jobs have moved out of the country, but how many in? i dont know, and i didnt claim to..... and who is blaiming clinton? i personally like President bush. Nothing you say is going to change it so drop it.

The reasons? i was reading time magazine and saw Mr. Bush with a chainsaw.. clearing his trails.. with his belt buckle and everything. I also believe his "tax" brackets are correctly laid out.
The RICH should benefit i believe, but it is my opinion.

Out_Sider

01-21-2004, 04:34 PM

i hate democrates...bunch of dumb basterds if u ask me :rolleyes:

MOFO

01-21-2004, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by Guy400
Eric, I'm glad I'm not the only one on this board that watched Dean's press conference after the Iowa caucuses. That guy was off the deep end! Rolling his sleeves up, shouting until his voice was shrill and could his face get any redder? With a liberal democrat in office we'll surrender to al Queda faster than France surrendered to Germany:mad: I'm not a party-line voter but Dean is waaayyy too far left for me.

He actually reminded me of Hillary Clinton when she went off the deep end about "being patriotic while disagreeing with the Bush administration" she sounded like a nut case... screaming at the top of her lungs, ranting and raving...

All I know is that I feel pretty safe seeing all the possible contenders against President Bush. Here's to another 4 years!!! :D

justdirt

01-21-2004, 04:38 PM

i'm glad that bush likes atv's, because i like them to, but what happens when all the jobs are gone. how is anybody going to afford to do the things they like to do. his tax cuts are benefiting the rich but that isn't doing me any good. don't even get me started on the amnesty program he wants to start for all the foreigners over here ILLEGALLY.

Guy400

01-21-2004, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by Crazy4bluEx
I also believe his "tax" brackets are correctly laid out.
The RICH should benefit i believe, but it is my opinion. Oh boy, you really opened a can of worms. That is blasphemy at its highest order right there in the minds of democrats. Why should the citizens and companies that pay over 80% of all taxes get a cut? This liberal ideal of "tax the rich because they can afford it" is absurd. How would you like to step into a restaraunt and they charge you $10 for a hamburger because you can afford it but the career welfare recipient gets it for $1?

As far as 2 million jobs leaving this country, it's true. However, those jobs were on their way out no matter who was President. Many factors contribute to those jobs shipping out but the bottom line is that they left because of cheaper labor overseas and less stringent pollution controls. The democrats want you to believe that even tighter pollution standards and a more powerful union will bring those jobs back. LMFAO...if you believe that one I've got a new YFZ for sale for $3500 on eBay:D

polabareus

01-21-2004, 04:38 PM

You obviously don't know why these jobs have moved to other countries. No, it's not because Bush chased them away its because these companies can save millions of dollars in labor by moving to developing countries. They leave regardless of who the president is. For example several companies here in Minnesota have moved across the border into south dakota and north dakota because they pay less taxes there. Its simple business and only so much can be done to keep the companies here. Are you willing to work for the same salary a mexican citizen would get?

Crazy4bluEx

01-21-2004, 04:41 PM

thanks for clearing that up guy400, at 17 i dont know "everything" but i do know what i know. i also know who and what i like... and bush is the man!

Pappy

01-21-2004, 04:42 PM

IM ALL FOR MORE BUSH :devil:

justdirt

01-21-2004, 04:45 PM

Are you willing to work for the same salary a mexican citizen w
ould get? [/B][/QUOTE]

what kind of question is that. i'm getting beat up here, i'm out.

01-21-2004, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by Pappy
IM ALL FOR MORE BUSH :devil:

lmao, i like bush also.:p

Guy400

01-21-2004, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by justdirt
his tax cuts are benefiting the rich but that isn't doing me any good. don't even get me started on the amnesty program he wants to start for all the foreigners over here ILLEGALLY. It's called trickle down economics (often referred to as Reaganomics). By allowing the top wage earners to keep more money in their pocket they'll in turn spend more money. As they spend more money the money filters down to everyone underneath.

If a rich man buys a $80,000 Viper the dealership just made a lot of money. That money goes to all the associates that work for that dealership. All those associates then go out to eat and buy some new clothes. That money has now just trickled down again. The restaraunt employees now have money in their pocket and they go and spend it, etc., etc., etc. all the while that money is being taxed along the way and it makes its way into the welfare system. If we tax the crap out of the rich guy and he doesn't want to spend that money than all those people lost out. If the government takes that tax money and gives food stamps to a couple of poor people how many really benefitted?

Crazy4bluEx

01-21-2004, 04:48 PM

yah, reaganomics is a great system!
Learning about this concept in my economics class right now ;)

polabareus

01-21-2004, 04:58 PM

Well, JustDirt, it's a simple question really, but lets look at this another way. Lets say that you were the owner, ceo, board member, etc, of a large company in the USA, and your company paid out 250 million in wages to it's employees each year. Now what would you do if you could save 175 million each year by moving your company to someplace like mexico or the phillipines or someplace like that. Im sure you would get the jobs here if you could and so would I, but big wigs in business for the most part don't think of things like this, they only think about the bottom dollar. And hey, Sorry if I came off as mean or whatever but I just have to respond when I hear stuff like that.

Crazy4bluEx

01-21-2004, 05:02 PM

this is the only place i dont feel like an outsider. When im at school i usually get into arguements with the vegetarian democratic idiots that think a human life is less important than a cow, or pigs. Here however, there is ALOT more support of bush.. i am glad to see that there is more americans like me... and i am positively proud to be one.

batgeek

01-21-2004, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by Crazy4bluEx
yah, reaganomics is a great system!

please dont tell me you just said that :(

greghall

01-21-2004, 07:49 PM

That weirdo does not have a chance!!!

JustRace

01-21-2004, 09:45 PM

Well I think Bush is a idiot, but this isn't what its about. Also as far as the jobs leaving he has some role in that but a larger part of that is NAFTA

remlapr

01-21-2004, 10:12 PM

I hate seeing jobs leave the country and the Bush administration could take more steps to stop it. It's called tariffs. I do agree that NAFTA was the biggest culprit - and that was a Democrat. I guess that's why I don't consider myself one or the other. I will support whatever canidate most reflects my views, Democrat or Republican.

For you guys that like Bush - what do you think of the new amnesty program?? How could anyone be in favor of out of work Americans now having to compete for jobs with 11 million Illegal's?? That was Bush being a straight up vote whore for the Latino vote in 04, period.

F-16Guy

01-21-2004, 10:15 PM

Originally posted by justdirt
don't even get me started on the amnesty program he wants to start for all the foreigners over here ILLEGALLY.
I think it (the work visa program) is the best proposal I've heard in a long time. The immigrants that are here illegally have been here and will continue to be here. Instead of turning the other cheek and denying the massive number of people living here without citizenship; why not document them so that they can be identified if they commit a crime, tax them for the income they earn, and afford them the opportunity to abide by the laws that they are criticized for breaking? I live in Arizona, so I get to see the benefits AND drawbacks of a large Mexican labor force. Manual labor jobs are readily filled for rock-bottom wages, but at the same time, home invasions, homicide rates, auto insurance rates, and petty crime have all gone through the roof. I think it would be best for us as Americans and for the migrant workers with truly good intentions to document them so that we can reward the good with much deserved basic benefits and punish the bad more easily by having fingerprints on file. They could also fulfill their obligation by being able to purchase things like auto and health insurance, and by contributing to local and federal revenue by paying taxes. I'm voting for Bush.

Max400

01-22-2004, 12:25 AM

It would be a cold day in hell before I vote for a liberal democrat.. AMEN BROTHER...........

I will vote for Bush again, not that I agree with everthing he does but he is a HELLUA better man than that pile of crap GORE.........and look at the best that the Democrats have to offer!! What a F@#KING JOKE.........you cant take any of them seriously:confused:

I have always voted Republican, not because I'm a Republican!!!
I am Conservative:D

Micheal Savage for President!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/

'THE SAVAGE NATION - Saving Ameica from the Liberal Assault on Our Borders, Language, and Culture'

FastHonda400ex

01-22-2004, 12:31 AM

I really hate the thought of atv and gun ownership hating democraps getting back in office. Personally I don't think any of the democrap candidates have a very good chance against Bush. I really like Bush, but I think he could handle some issues better. I don't know if I like the idea of giving amnesty to immigrants, although it would build up tax revenues overall with them having to pay taxes. But if we give all immigrants citizenship, won't the whole population of Mexico have American citizenship?...lol The economy and job market did show a slight increase in the last quarter of 2003, so hopefully I can find my Computer Tech job soon.:D

Anyway, I hope Bush remains our President for the next four years.

JD400exrider

01-22-2004, 01:00 AM

Work Visa Program
That is one of the biggest reasons George W Bush is wanting to do this. To Document the people that are here illegally. Finger prints and all the other information that they can get on these people. So lets get the tax dollars and know who these people are. Then were able to help the good and find the bad. When I first heard about this i was like no way. The more you think about it, it does make sense. Chit Californias last Democrat Gov. wanted to give all the illegall imigrants drivers licenses that was after he took the state in to a hole. He got booted right out on his arse :D

The system needs some changes though.
Here is one example

My dad has allztimers (spelling) We have him in a small home of six people rather than a large place where they get lost in the croud. The people that work there are mostly lady imigrants from other counties. These ladies are the nicest people you would ever meet and treat the people great. Well one of the ladies has 9 kids and a husband back in her home country. She left them all for America two years ago. She just informed us that she is quiting because she has saved up eneough money to bring her whole family over here. She does not have to work anymore because the goverment is going to pay her X amount of money per child so she will make more money from OUR goverment to to stay at home. I am all for a mother at home with her kids, but when the people come over to america and get on our welfair system something is wrong.

I have nothing against someone that is a different color, race creed or relegion. They are human and we should treat them as such. This is a goverment and state thing. Something needs to change but I am not going to hold my breath on it.

YOU COME TO AMERICA

You work and pay taxes
You are self supportive (No handouts!)
You learn and speak our language
You Screw Up, Do Crimes YOUR GONE!

Yes I voted for G.W. Bush the first time and I WILL vote for Him again. :cool:

Max400

01-22-2004, 01:16 AM

YOU COME TO AMERICA

You work and pay taxes
You are self supportive (No handouts!)
You learn and speak our language
You Screw Up, Do Crimes YOUR GONE!

Well said, all this adds up to,

(Borders, Language, and Culture)

batgeek

01-22-2004, 02:06 AM

Bush is an idiot, at least he surrounds himself with intelligent people.

the Democrats have diddly and sh*t to offer.

guess it's another year of either voting for someone that has no chance at all to win(Libertarian Party, preferably Gary Nolan), or to pick between the lesser of two evils...

dont ya just love our Democracy?

for those of you who may be interested, Libertarian Party (http://www.lp.org/), i think many of you will find them interesting.

Crazy4bluEx

01-22-2004, 02:09 AM

batgeek- i know this is off topic, but above your avatar.....
"im your huckleberry" you taking this off the movie tombstone? or are you getting it from somewhere else? Doc holiday says that in the movie..its an awesome choice.
tombstone is a classic! one of my favorites! :p

batgeek

01-22-2004, 02:13 AM

yep :D

Crazy4bluEx

01-22-2004, 02:14 AM

your a good man batgeek! :D ;)

batgeek

01-22-2004, 02:38 AM

apparently, you have never met me in person :devil:

MOFO

01-22-2004, 07:08 AM

Originally posted by FastHonda400ex
The economy and job market did show a slight increase in the last quarter of 2003, so hopefully I can find my Computer Tech job soon.:D

...let me tell you first hand... its a TOUGH market out there right now for this field... trust me!!!

XANDADA

01-22-2004, 07:25 AM

Saw that Dean explosion and all I could say was, "oh boy:eek: ".
I don't think he really has a chance but you never know. He falls into my category of: If he wins, I'm moving to mexico - viva zapata baby!

Keep Bush in da' house!

Pappy

01-22-2004, 07:29 AM

well i am a bush supporter but i do feel all this BS about the imagration is just politicing. its no secret he needs the hispanic votes and this is his way of getting them. i dont think congress will pass it but by the time it actually is voted on the election will be over.

as far as losing jobs. if you are an educated american with credentials to work in a tech field or management do you think your job will be impacted? doubtful.

nafta has impacted my business in good and bad ways. we are able to buy product at 1/2 of what we pay here from the USA. at first we didnt think we would get good product but the warranty rates are lower on teh mexican product. did this hurt us workers? nope...in fact they sent americans in to train and run the plants. not one american has lost a job due to our company atleast. our plants are running 24 hours a day and 7 days a week.

im sure i have more to say but ill save it

Ryan

01-22-2004, 07:49 AM

Originally posted by Max400
I will vote for Bush again

:macho

BTW, welcome to the site, Dirtgirl.

xr50layke

01-22-2004, 08:02 AM

I live in Canada, who should I vote for because I want to ride?

kfxrcer

01-22-2004, 10:05 AM

well if i could vote i would vote for bush and hope he gets assassinated so i dont have to worry about that sob ever getting back in office

Pappy

01-22-2004, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by kfxrcer
well if i could vote i would vote for bush and hope he gets assassinated so i dont have to worry about that sob ever getting back in office

what you just said is enough to get you locked away. wether you like him or not wishing for someones death is not called for.

MOFO

01-22-2004, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by kfxrcer
well if i could vote i would vote for bush and hope he gets assassinated so i dont have to worry about that sob ever getting back in office

I'm very tempted to forward this onto the authorities... your nothing but a POS in my book. Never wish death onto ANYONE!!!

Guy400

01-22-2004, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by kfxrcer
well if i could vote i would vote for bush and hope he gets assassinated so i dont have to worry about that sob ever getting back in office Holy chit, dude. Do you realize what you said violates a federal law? You cannot say you're going to, you hope so or you're in any way affiliated with a Presidential assassination.

kfxrcer

01-22-2004, 10:45 AM

well i sure did c alot of peeps whishing death for saddam and osama

Ryan

01-22-2004, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by kfxrcer
well i sure did c alot of peeps whishing death for saddam and osama

:huh , Im not sure you noticed, but that was a completely different situation :huh .

Pappy

01-22-2004, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by kfxrcer
well i sure did c alot of peeps whishing death for saddam and osama

for you to even insinuate those individuals being in the human race shows me you know very little and i can see that your future will be limited. very sad

zephead400ex

01-22-2004, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by kfxrcer
well i sure did c alot of peeps whishing death for saddam and osama

quick, quarentine this mug, he has ID 10 T disease!! There are not federal laws saying that we can't talk about other dictators or leader of terrorist groups.

Before posting, please consult your elementary teacher.

Back to topic
I am not Rep or Dem.
I have backed Bush since day 1. He has made his mistakes, he is human. The Dem's are cut-throat until the end. They speak before they think sometimes. The Dem's are wanting to pull out of Iraq asap. Makes little sense. Yes, we want our troops home but we have a job to finish along with our allies. We are leading the war on terror and with Bush we will continue. Dean is dope, period! It is not Bush's fault that jobs are being sent across seas, that acqusation (sp?) is obserd.

Politics & religion will always be debated...I love it.

Max400

01-22-2004, 12:31 PM

If he wins, I'm moving to mexico

Just move to Calif..............Mexico is moving to us:mad: :grr:

kfxrcer

01-22-2004, 01:32 PM

well look at it this way i hate bush as much as u guys hate saddam

jcv400ex

01-22-2004, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by MOFO
It would be a cold day in hell before I vote for a liberal democrat..

I think watching Dean after the Iowa caucus really showed his colors... he's a loose cannon! Democrat+loose cannon=danger in my book.

Couldn't agree with you more Eric, Damn liberals.

Max400

01-22-2004, 01:40 PM

well look at it this way i hate bush as much as u guys hate saddam

Then you should move to IRAQ you *********, I didn't like Clinton but I didnt hate him as much as Saddam................

You my friend are an enemy of this country and all peace and freedom loving people!1!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Better men than you paid with their BLOOD for the price of FREEDOM and FREE SPEECH.............it was wasted on you!!

Max400

01-22-2004, 01:42 PM

Pappy lock this thread before I say something that I will reget!!!

zephead400ex

01-22-2004, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by Max400
Pappy lock this thread before I say something that I will reget!!!

Have a cold one and rolled one and you'll be better! :blah:

Max400

01-22-2004, 02:04 PM

Have a cold one and rolled one and you'll be better! "I used to rock it, sometimes I'd roll it. I always knew what it was for".

And a little Zep playing, that will lower the blood pressure for sure:D

Guy400

01-22-2004, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by kfxrcer
well i sure did c alot of peeps whishing death for saddam and osama The difference is there's no federal law prohibiting the conversation of assassinations of foreign rulers but there is against our own President. You can disagree with Bush's policies until you're blue in the face but you can't talk about killing him.

Crazy4bluEx

01-22-2004, 02:54 PM

if you are located in the U.S. - kfxrcer.... i invite you to go spout this "b.s." off on your local street corner..... im sure someone will initiate you into the "your a dumbass" hall of fame. You ever rode on the end of a boot? you want too? im sure you dont.... so STFU

chucked

01-22-2004, 03:08 PM

kfxrcer, why do you hate bush?

Max400

01-22-2004, 03:11 PM

kfxrcer, why do you hate bush?

Cause he's a Red Diaper, Doper Baby!

chucked

01-22-2004, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by Max400
Cause he's a Red Diaper, Doper Baby!
is your name kfxrcer??? ;)

LizzyVanderbilt

01-22-2004, 03:30 PM

Honestly I am a Democrat and a Red-Blooded American. And even though I'm a democrat I don't like Dean now that I know this. I just hope that if we get back into office we pick some other democrat that isn't Dean.

BTW- Democrats aint dumb.

~Lizzy Vanderbilt~

batgeek

01-22-2004, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by LizzyVanderbilt
BTW- Democrats aint dumb.

i agree 100%. i do notice that the majority of Democrats tend to be very well informed on all the big issues, while Republicans talk sh*t out of thier asses trying to sound like they know whats going on.

disclaimer: i'm neither a Demo nor a Repub.

TrailBreaker70

01-22-2004, 04:20 PM

Howard Dean needs a good shovel to the face.

The solution: VOTE REPUBLICAN!!!!

If you ask me, I'm glad we have a president with the balls to go and kick the a**es of the terrorists instead of saying "we just need to talk with them and find out what's wrong." Democrats are a bunch of whining pansy's.

Max400

01-22-2004, 04:25 PM

i do notice that the majority of Democrats tend to be very well informed on all the big issues

Name one and what it is that he or she is so informed about!!

All the top Dems can do is Bash the War and Bush!!!!

If I was going to vote Democrat (which would never happen) it would be for Liberman, is the only one so far that votes on his core beliefs, not what will get him elected!

batgeek

01-22-2004, 04:27 PM

ummm y'all know there are going to be other candidates aside from the Republican and Democrat candidates right?

if more people would educate themselves and understand the other parties and what they have to offer, maybe some day we WONT HAVE TO pick between the lesser of two evils.

shoot, it may not be in my voting lifetime, but i hope my kids and your kids get that chance.

Max400

01-22-2004, 04:27 PM

I'm a democrat I don't like Dean now that I know this.

You mean that him wanting to ban ATV's is the only reason you wouldn't vote for him??? you mean up until now he sounded resonable:confused: :confused:

batgeek

01-22-2004, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by Max400
Name one and what it is that he or she is so informed about!!

i'm sorry you have tunnel vision...

it's also called reading comprehension. i din't say "the Democratic hopefuls" i said "the majority of Democrats" ie, - that is a generalization of ALL THE Democrats. as opposed to the majority of Republicans that tend to be misinformed. ALSO a generaliztion.

my posts do not reflect upon just the race for the canidacy for either party nor the presidency.

should i get crayons out an draw you a picture next time?

Guy400

01-22-2004, 04:32 PM

The problem with the Democrats this time around is that they've got no platform. All they're doing is trying to reverse, block or undo everything that Bush has done or is stating he will do. They don't have an original idea themselves at this point. I'm not saying Democrats are dumb but I just don't align myself with their ideals. There's as many stupid Democrats as stupid Republicans so that point is moot in my mind.

LizzyVanderbilt

01-22-2004, 04:47 PM

I never liked Dean in the first place really. And not all Democrats are Whiney. At least not anyone in my family.

~Lizzy Vanderbilt"

JustRace

01-22-2004, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by Guy400
The problem with the Democrats this time around is that they've got no platform. All they're doing is trying to reverse, block or undo everything that Bush has done or is stating he will do. They don't have an original idea themselves at this point. I'm not saying Democrats are dumb but I just don't align myself with their ideals. There's as many stupid Democrats as stupid Republicans so that point is moot in my mind.

You sound exactly like my american politics teacher in college sounded like. Its the truth too. Its easy to say the opposite of someone but its a little harder to think of new things apparantly.

Max400

01-22-2004, 08:16 PM

it's also called reading comprehension. i din't say "the Democratic hopefuls" i said "the majority of Democrats"

I can read and comprehend! and I never said Democratic hopefulles either..maybe you should re-read and comprehend!

I
Name one and what it is that he or she is so informed about!!

All the top Dems can do is Bash the War and Bush!!!!

Two totally different sentances!!! I just said name one out of all of them and you still didn't. You said

i do notice that the majority of Democrats tend to be very well informed on all the big issues, while Republicans talk sh*t out of thier asses trying to sound like they know whats going on.

which Republicans talk sh*t and which Democrat is well informed on what issue..May Ted Kenndy on the morales of Drinking and Driving and drowning a girl!

I don't have tunnel vision, I never said all Republicans are right on every issue. I don't vote down the party lines, I vote on my core set of values and beliefs. I am registered Republican, but I am Conservitive!! I just vote Repulican because they are the closest to what I believe.
I do agree with you on the fact the we have really only 2 choices and we have to vote on, the lesser of 2 evils, cause after all politicans are politicans and they do and say what they have to do to get elected and stay in office. I think the republican party is to far center for me, I tend to be far right if we must label!

So me someone that would bet either Dems or Repubs that stands for what I believe, even if if were a liberatarian! But I will not cut off my nose to spite my face and end up with some Kerry or Dean type clown!
So save you crayons so you can make some liberatrian posters for your next Rally!

batgeek

01-22-2004, 08:31 PM

calm down dude.

ok, let me clarify it for you.

in my dealings and experiences(both personally and what i see on TV) i have found that the majority of people that tend to vote Democrat appear to be far more informed on BOTH sides of the issue presented. people that tend to vote Republican understand and know the conservative side of the issue and can only argue that.

Max400

01-22-2004, 08:47 PM

I am calm.....

I did not insult or try to insult you. I was just asking a question, after all that what Debate is all about.
And my dealings and experiences say most Libs are knee jerk thinkers that waffle on issues. Most Libs agreed with Clinton to bomb Serbia and he did that without asking the U.N. and they got all over Bush and said he had to ask the U.N., When an Idea has a D. in front of it they think it's good but if it has an R. it is bad. To me I see most dems to be narrow minded with tunnel Vision. They would all vote Clinton back into office in a Heartbeat and think that he was the best thing since sliced cheese. Even if he was bombing Serbia while getting a Hummer in the Oval Office to cover up his affair. If Bush was doing that in the Oval office I would want his ***** out.
So to call me narrow minded makes you look narrow minded, I look at all sides and make a choice on what I believe. and I don't need anything explained with Crayola drawings. I know that there are a lot of young confused non voting people that don't know the issues or couldn't hold their own in a good political debate with another person! But I am Not One, and I really don't think that you are either even though I Disagree with you.

After all Debate is bringing more than one Idea to the table and without that you have Dictatorship.

batgeek

01-22-2004, 09:06 PM

They would all vote Clinton back into office in a Heartbeat

and this shows exactly how narrow minded you are. you HAVE not looked at all sides of this arguement, otherwise you would know that you are incorrect in your judgement.

Rastus

01-22-2004, 09:53 PM

Dean is a total wack-job. I don't see what screaming and yelling until your red in the face is gonna do. He can go on the radio and TV and talk about his BLOGS(basically a liberals forum) and talk about " What I would have done" all he wants, but he'll still only have the hardcore liberals vote.

In my opinion I think Bush has done a decent job, although everyone makes mistakes. I agree with most of his views, and support most of them.

I am not old enough to vote, but when I can legally vote I will. It's kind of funny because some people will whine and complain about something, and then not even go vote...

Max400

01-22-2004, 10:55 PM

and this shows exactly how narrow minded you are. you HAVE not looked at all sides of this arguement, otherwise you would know that you are incorrect in your judgement. :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

You still never asked my question..........typical!!!! when you don't have an answer change the subject!!

Still never told me which Republicans are talking Sh#T...and you probably won't or can't, so you are the incorrect with your original statemant!!

i agree 100%. i do notice that the majority of Democrats tend to be very well informed on all the big issues, while Republicans talk sh*t out of thier asses trying to sound like they know whats going on. :confused: :confused:

you HAVE not looked at all sides of this arguement, Please enlighten me!!!

JD400exrider

01-22-2004, 11:28 PM

Originally posted by kfxrcer
well if i could vote i would vote for bush and hope he gets assassinated so i dont have to worry about that sob ever getting back in office

Boot this SOB out of here. What you just said is unreal and un called for. :grr:

You need help Next time you open your pie hole think what you are saying. Better yet keep your pie hole shut with remarks like that :grr:

batgeek

01-22-2004, 11:45 PM

You still never asked my question..........typical!!!! when you don't have an answer change the subject!!

and why should i? answer a direct question about a general statement....

btw, i am not incorrect...it is my opinion based on what i have experienced...unlike your statment about all of them would vote Clinton in if they had a chance. but damn...you have looked at all sides of that arguement(as you stated), yet you wish for me to enlighten you about it :rolleyes: your just another example of a right-winger talking like thay know something, but in actuality they don't.

and to clue you, this is all semantics...if you didn't understand that, well no hope for you. it stopped being a political disussion when you didn't understand my initial statement.

my posts do not reflect upon just the race for the canidacy for either party nor the presidency.

OMG another disclaimer i inserted into my post. you have proven you can read, can you prove that you can comprehend now?

in my dealings and experiences(both personally and what i see on TV) i have found that the majority of people that tend to vote Democrat appear to be far more informed on BOTH sides of the issue presented. people that tend to vote Republican understand and know the conservative side of the issue and can only argue that.

oh man! not another one!

you listen to Jimmy....but can you HEAR Jimmy?

Max400

01-23-2004, 12:30 AM

and why should i? answer a direct question about a general statement....

Yup just what I thought:)

btw, i am not incorrect...it is my opinion based on what i have experienced

btw way I don't don't have tunnel vision. it is also my opinion.just because my opinion don't jive with my opinion does not give my tunnel vision, and I too am not incorrect!!!

i'm sorry you have tunnel vision

This dose not make you right nor me right, hence we both have our own opinions...therefore the only thing we can agree on is to disagree:)

Crazy4bluEx

01-23-2004, 12:46 AM

max400 & batgeek... you 2 are killin me! :D :devil:

batgeek

01-23-2004, 01:00 AM

Originally posted by Max400
the only thing we can agree on is to disagree:)

agreed!

i said you were incorrect about your statement about "all of them would vote Clinton in..." coupled with the earlier statement "i look at all sides..."

making a definitive statement such as the first can not be qualified with your initial statement, thus it no longer became a discussion on predicated points and providing example for such...but became a diatribe, on my part, trying to show the inconsistancies of your posts. with an added bonus of Conservative one-sidedness that seems to be prevalent :D

not trying to continue the discussion, just pointing out what i seen in this thread.

edited due to using a word with overtly negative connotations.

sleestack68

01-23-2004, 12:25 PM

I been reading these posts and respect everyone's opinions but you guys need to open your eyes and think for yourself. As much as I hate to say it, there is more to life than riding your quad on the weekend.

Bush Administration= most corrupt in history. He makes Nixon look like a girlscout.

The list of lies, corruption and wasteful spending is so long it would take days to list but right off the top of my head "Iraqi's WMD associated plans (that is what he calls it now)", Halburton, Lying about Iraq seeking Uranium from Africa, jacking up the deficit to astronomical levels and wanting to spend more (3.7 billon to religious instututions, 1.6 billion for marriage counseling, 180+ billion on iraq, 700 billion Mars), Patriot Act, worker immigration etc.

All this while Osama, that guy behind the actual attack has been all but forgotten or as Bush said 3 months ago "insignificant".

I know on this forum Republicans will be the majority because they believe that they will keep land open and are backed by the NRA. But look at the reality of things. I wrote a paper a few months ago about the Bush administation wanting to start drilling for oil in the Colorado and Alaskan wilderness. Outdoorsmen compained that it would ruin the untouched hunting and recreation areas. The Bush Admin said that they would tread lightly with a small footprint and not spoil the area. Now I tell you, do you really believe that an oil company is going to have oil pumps in colorado or alaska and have you hunting or riding anywhere near by. That area will be shut down.

I've never been Dem or Rep but I would vote for anyone but Bush.

We need a president that will take care of this country first.

TrailBreaker70

01-23-2004, 12:33 PM

Good for you :rolleyes:

chucked

01-23-2004, 12:38 PM

riding comes 3rd in my life- school, work, ride. if he bans quads what are we going to do with them? we wont be able to sell them, to someone in this country anyway.

dbsbl1

01-23-2004, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by sleestack68
I've never been Dem or Rep but I would vote for anyone but Bush.

We need a president that will take care of this country first.

Right on brotha...

raygun

01-23-2004, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by justdirt
i'm glad that bush likes atv's, because i like them to, but what happens when all the jobs are gone. how is anybody going to afford to do the things they like to do. his tax cuts are benefiting the rich but that isn't doing me any good. don't even get me started on the amnesty program he wants to start for all the foreigners over here ILLEGALLY.

That is such a bunch of hot steaming nonsense. Other than the so called "amnesty" that I lean against you might as well scream that the sky is falling. There isn't a liberal Democrat that could give a rip about illegal immigration. Where do you think they get an increasing amount of their leftist constituents. Is voting for someone who isn't even going to address the issue better to vote for?

President Bush's tax cuts stimulate the economy. When people keep more of their money they spend more thus creating a better economy. Businesses can afford to hire more people when Americans spend more of their hard earned money.

A big problem is leftists in this country that rob Peter to pay Paul and Paul isn't going to complain about it. This country cannot tax itself rich.

Technology is changing and so are the jobs that go along with them. If you want to be successfull you find a skill, trade, or proffession that you can benefit from and roll with the changes or get left behind. A sense of entitlement doesn't get anyone anywhere.

raygun

01-23-2004, 08:19 PM

Martin Blair

01-23-2004, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by justdirt
2 million jobs have moved out of the country since bush as taken office. great job i don't think so. oh but let me guess it was probably all clinton's fault wasn't it. i remember an old guy i used to work with told me one time, vote for your job, preach for your hobby. what good is a hobby if you can't afford to do it.

but alot of peoples job is your hobby, along with yoru job might be someones else hobby so shut it kid, think aobut it a while :rolleyes:

sportraxrider10

01-23-2004, 08:35 PM

Originally posted by sleestack68
We need a president that will take care of this country first.

:)

Max400

01-24-2004, 12:19 AM

The list of lies, corruption and wasteful spending is so long it would take days to list but right off the top of my head "Iraqi's WMD associated plans (that is what he calls it now)",

Yeah it was all George Bush's concoction?? Then How Come Clinton bombed a Pharmacutical company in Iraq tying to kill Saddam Hussain, and he also declared that Iraq had W.M.D., so did the C.I.A. and the U.N.!!!! How short peoples memories are!

Just wait till "God forbid" that some other terrorist group sets of a Nuke in our country and then everyone that said Bush shouldn't have stopped saddam fight terrorism will say that he didn't do enough..............some crazy whacks even said he planned 911 elevn just to go after Saddam:confused:

And Batgeek, If I was Incorrect about the blanket statement that I said

i said you were incorrect about your statement about "all of them would vote Clinton in..." coupled with the earlier statement "i look at all sides..."

Then you are blanket statement that you made, makes you Incorrect!!

i do notice that the majority of Democrats tend to be very well informed on all the big issues, while Republicans talk sh*t out of thier asses trying to sound like they know whats going on.

That is coupled with your earlier statement !!!

You are narrow minded and only see the side of the story that you want to see!!!!!
So how does that make me incorrect? when you can make the same blanket statement???? Is it because I don't have your view so in your mind that makes me wrong????? That really makes you narrow minded.

not trying to continue the discussion either, I'm just pointing out what i seen in this threadas your narrow mindedness to call other people incorrect when they don't see things the way you do.

It must really be a big burden to carry, to be smarter than everyone else!!!

Max400

01-24-2004, 12:23 AM

That is such a bunch of hot steaming nonsense. Other than the so called "amnesty" that I lean against you might as well scream that the sky is falling. There isn't a liberal Democrat that could give a rip about illegal immigration. Where do you think they get an increasing amount of their leftist constituents. Is voting for someone who isn't even going to address the issue better to vote for?

Thank God there is someone as narrow minded and stupid as me here.:)

batgeek

01-24-2004, 01:55 AM

so i failed to insert "majority" before Republicans. it was late in my work shift, but that is what i wanted to type...sorry, weariness and apathy gets the better of me sometimes.

it was supposed to be the quantifier in both my statements.

i wouldn't call myself narrow minded, i would call myself VERY F*CKIN opinionated. i can accept other peoples ideas, but when they come off sounding like a complete idiot, my view tends to become quite jaded.

and smart...yeah, i'm pretty smart. matter of fact i'm quite intelligent. it's something i'm immensely proud of actually. and yes, it is quite a burden to carry. yeah, i'm arrogant...yeah i come off as a d!ckhead on messageboards...but oh well.

and btw, overuse of punctuation does not strengthen your arguement.

polabareus

01-24-2004, 05:37 AM

If I was a liberal democrat I would say war and the killing involved with it is bad and yet I would support abortion. If I was a liberal democrat I would be against racism but yet I would support affirmative action which favors people based on their race. I would say that I support hard working americans but would take an anti big business stance that hurts the companies that those same people work at. If I were a liberal democrat I would resort to calling bush a moronic cowboy everytime my political views are proven wrong. Thankfully Im not.

Guy400

01-24-2004, 06:05 AM

Originally posted by sleestack68
I been reading these posts and respect everyone's opinions but you guys need to open your eyes and think for yourself. As much as I hate to say it, there is more to life than riding your quad on the weekend.

Bush Administration= most corrupt in history. He makes Nixon look like a girlscout.

The list of lies, corruption and wasteful spending is so long it would take days to list but right off the top of my head "Iraqi's WMD associated plans (that is what he calls it now)", Halburton, Lying about Iraq seeking Uranium from Africa, jacking up the deficit to astronomical levels and wanting to spend more (3.7 billon to religious instututions, 1.6 billion for marriage counseling, 180+ billion on iraq, 700 billion Mars), Patriot Act, worker immigration etc.

All this while Osama, that guy behind the actual attack has been all but forgotten or as Bush said 3 months ago "insignificant".

I know on this forum Republicans will be the majority because they believe that they will keep land open and are backed by the NRA. But look at the reality of things. I wrote a paper a few months ago about the Bush administation wanting to start drilling for oil in the Colorado and Alaskan wilderness. Outdoorsmen compained that it would ruin the untouched hunting and recreation areas. The Bush Admin said that they would tread lightly with a small footprint and not spoil the area. Now I tell you, do you really believe that an oil company is going to have oil pumps in colorado or alaska and have you hunting or riding anywhere near by. That area will be shut down.

I've never been Dem or Rep but I would vote for anyone but Bush.

We need a president that will take care of this country first. I thought I was done with this thread but I now feel compelled to reply. I will agree on two points: Bush's spending and the amnesty proposal. Bush really needs to get his spending under control and I think his amnesty program (which he claims isn't amnesty) is a terrible idea.

Bush is the most corrupt President in history? That's comical to say the least. All President's are "influenced". I absolutely believe that Bush is close with big oil companies and some policies are built on such. However, Clinton was tight with trial lawyers and how about Clinton selling us out to China? He accepted millions of dollars from China in exchange for nuclear secrets and #1 trade status. Guess what a problem is today? Imports from China wrecking our economy. For Bush being the most corrupt it sure is interesting that Clinton was the first elected President to ever be impeached, first President to be disbarred while in office, 31 mysterious deaths during the Whitewater and other investigations of people who were slated to be witnesses while even more fled the country to avoid testifying, Clinton's pardoning of undeniably guilty people days before he left office and how about the classy vandalism and theft of White House goods?

Seeking uranium or depleted plutonium from Africa: we received that information from British intelligence and guess what? To this day Britain still stands by that information wholeheartedly.

Money towards religious institutions and marriage counseling: it's a bad idea for the government to assist churches in feeding their local homeless? Would you rather a larger welfare system where even more money would get dumped into? Marriage counseling is bad as well? It is in the governments interest that as many couples remained married. Speaking in monatary terms only (and other benefits are obvious), couples that are married and have children AFTER being married are 5 times less likely to ever reach poverty levels. Again, it's worth my tax dollars in supporting this program and potentially saving a marriage rather than having that family split up and the children going on a government assistance program that will inevitably cost us more than 1.6 billion.

700 billion to Mars: This is over the course of the next 15 years. When JFK said we'll have a man on the moon in this decade he was revered. An aggressive space program is vital to our world. JFK understood that and so does Bush. When it was a democratic ideal it was heroic but now that it's Bush's it's absurd. Here are some inventions that came from our space program, see if they've impacted the world in any way: microwave oven, Plexiglas, freeze dried food, computer technologies that led to the CAT scan, MRI and kidney dialysis machines, cordless tools, better insulation barriers and water purification systems, natural gas detectors, infrared thermometer and hundreds of other inventions. The tax revenues alone from the sale of the inventions listed above pays off the 700 billion easily.

Patriot Act: there are no reported cases of any innocent citizen being infringed upon by this Act and according to John Ashcroft, not one library user has been investigated.

If you think for one minute that the U.S. military isn't hunting down Osama you're sadly mistaken. All intelligence agencies, domestic and abroad, place Osama somewhere in Pakistan. Newsflash, it's illegal for us to cross the border into Pakistan to go after him. I'm sure some covert operations are being performed and we're working with Pakistan but it's not like we can send our entire army in to get him.

alberndt

01-24-2004, 09:47 AM

You guys are too serious and need to go ride.

greghall

01-24-2004, 09:55 AM

liberals dont have a clue!!!!!

sportraxrider10

01-24-2004, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by Guy400
An aggressive space program is vital to our world.

why?

Max400

01-24-2004, 11:54 AM

i'm arrogant...yeah i come off as a d!ckhead on messageboards...but oh well. Very well said, I couldn't have said it better!
I am very opinionated too! and from where I sit you are the one that sounds like an IDIOT!

Guy400

01-24-2004, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by sportraxrider10
why? Did you read the rest of my response? I explained why.

sleestack68

01-24-2004, 07:49 PM

Guy400,

Bush is the most corrupt President in history? That's comical to say the least. All President's are "influenced". I absolutely believe that Bush is close with big oil companies and some policies are built on such. However, Clinton was tight with trial lawyers and how about Clinton selling us out to China? He accepted millions of dollars from China in exchange for nuclear secrets and #1 trade status. Guess what a problem is today? Imports from China wrecking our economy. For Bush being the most corrupt it sure is interesting that Clinton was the first elected President to ever be impeached, first President to be disbarred while in office, 31 mysterious deaths during the Whitewater and other investigations of people who were slated to be witnesses while even more fled the country to avoid testifying, Clinton's pardoning of undeniably guilty people days before he left office and how about the classy vandalism and theft of White House goods?

So I guess it just a coincidence that Halburton (Cheney's old company) gets a multi-billion dollar contract with no bidding, no questions asked, they has already been caught overcharging and yesterday taking kickbacks.

And who said anything about Clinton. Using your reasoning anyone who has commited a lesser crime should be free to do as they want.

Seeking uranium or depleted plutonium from Africa: we received that information from British intelligence and guess what? To this day Britain still stands by that information wholeheartedly.

It was public knowledge as early as 11/02 that this information was false. The Bush administration was warned several times that it was inaccurate. I remember watching the 03 State of the union address and saying to myself "what is he doing". Just today Powell said he doubts there are any WMD in Iraq when he, Bush and Rumsfeld where quote saying, right before the war, that they were 100% certain that they had them. I would hate to be the one telling the family of a dead soldier that their son is dead because of Bush's personal vendetta.

Money towards religious institutions and marriage counseling: it's a bad idea for the government to assist churches in feeding their local homeless? Would you rather a larger welfare system where even more money would get dumped into? Marriage counseling is bad as well? It is in the governments interest that as many couples remained married. Speaking in monatary terms only (and other benefits are obvious), couples that are married and have children AFTER being married are 5 times less likely to ever reach poverty levels. Again, it's worth my tax dollars in supporting this program and potentially saving a marriage rather than having that family split up and the children going on a government assistance program that will inevitably cost us more than 1.6 billion.

I will ask you this, if money is going to churches for marriage counseling, who decides what church, what if it goes to Islamic churches. I say keep the state and church separate. I don't want my money going to support someone’s fairytales. This is just Bush pandering to the church for votes

700 billion to Mars: This is over the course of the next 15 years. When JFK said we'll have a man on the moon in this decade he was revered. An aggressive space program is vital to our world. JFK understood that and so does Bush. When it was a democratic ideal it was heroic but now that it's Bush's it's absurd. Here are some inventions that came from our space program, see if they've impacted the world in any way: microwave oven, Plexiglas, freeze dried food, computer technologies that led to the CAT scan, MRI and kidney dialysis machines, cordless tools, better insulation barriers and water purification systems, natural gas detectors, infrared thermometer and hundreds of other inventions. The tax revenues alone from the sale of the inventions listed above pays off the 700 billion easily.

I'm all for space exploration, my favorite subject, I could talk your ear off regarding theoretical physics and space. But now is not the time to get into this. We need to control spending. When we are back on track then you could start planning space missions.

Patriot Act: there are no reported cases of any innocent citizen being infringed upon by this Act and according to John Ashcroft, not one library user has been investigated.

You are right, no reported cases of any innocent citizen being infringed upon by this Act, but this is a foothold, where will it stop, next they will want to know what web pages you visit and what things you buy with you credit cards, opps, I forgot, that is in the provisions for Patriot Act II before it go shot down. I for one don't want my gov to be snooping on me.

If you think for one minute that the U.S. military isn't hunting down Osama you're sadly mistaken. All intelligence agencies, domestic and abroad, place Osama somewhere in Pakistan. Newsflash, it's illegal for us to cross the border into Pakistan to go after him. I'm sure some covert operations are being performed and we're working with Pakistan but it's not like we can send our entire army in to get him.

If we had focused the effort we put into Afghanistan as we did in Iraq, Osama would have been in our hands by now. Just about 2-3 months ago Bush said Ossama was irrelevant despite the fact that he puts out a video or tape telling Islamics to attack.

Give me a break, try thinking for yourself every now and then.

Guy400

01-24-2004, 08:30 PM

I don't think it's a coincidence that Haliburton won unbid contracts and overcharging our government isn't a new fad either. Doesn't make it right and I'm not justifying it at all. This has been happening for decades.

Do a search on the internet, Britain still stands behind their intelligence regarding Iraq seeking uranium. And where did Powell say he doubts Iraq ever had WMD's? Here's Powell's direct quote without any liberal spin: "The answer to that question is, we don't know yet. We had questions that needed to be answered." David Kay, our weapons search leader in prewar Iraq, states that Iraq had these weapons or components of and that Iraq shuffled them to other countries right before the war. Here are Kay's direct comments: "We are not talking about a large stockpile of weapons but we know from some of the interrogations of former Iraqi officials that a lot of material went to Syria before the war, including some components of Saddam's WMD (weapons of mass destruction) program. Precisely what went to Syria, and what has happened to it, is a major issue that needs to be resolved." He goes on to say that his team knows that Saddam moved chemical and biological agents to Jordan and Syria before the war, during the war and some more after the war.

The Patriot Act doesn't worry me one bit. The fact is it has affected not one law-abiding citizen. Worrying about the potentialities isn't of concern to me right now. When I hear about this act infringing upon good, honest citizens then I'll start to worry. This same type of worrying occurred when banks started fingerprinting for cashing checks. The bank says it's for our own security but there were people that were worried that these fingerprints were going to be held in a government database. How many honest citizens do you know have been infringed upon by our government as a result of getting their fingerprints taken at a bank?

Focusing our efforts more in Afghanistan still doesn't explain how we're going to get Osama out of a country that we're not allowed to enter. Bush's comments on Osama's irrelevancy are also being taken out of context. It is not that Osama is unimportant to Bush now but his point is that whether Osama is ever caught or not he's not giving up the battle against terrorism. We may never find the cure for AIDS but does that mean we stop fighting?

You and I can differ on our political views and that's what makes our democracy great. I do find it funny, however, that because my views are different than yours that you tell me to "try thinking for yourself every now and then." Because I don't completely agree with your political perspective I'm somehow not thinking for myself? Interesting, I'll have to ponder that one a little more.

My argument isn't that Bush is doing everything correctly. I do think he's made mistakes and in all likelihood he'll continue to make mistakes, much like any other President. My only bone of contention is that Bush is no worse than other Presidents we've had sitting in office. Not saying he's better but he's certainly not worse.