honda's stupid

[yamblaster200]

Honda doesn't make any business sense at all. They come out with the 400ex...which sold like he11 and now the 450r which will do the same...but what i dont understand is all they had to do was in '99 just re-release the 89 250r...even exactly the way it was in 89. They would have saved alot on r&d and there would have been lines 5 miles long at every honda dealership. Then keep the r and later release the 450R...4 stroke version of it like they did their cr line. I have a 400ex and i love it to death....but if when i went to the dealer they would have had an ex and a brand new 250r....i'd have the r in my shed today.

[Guy400]

It's because production 2-strokes are going the way of the dinosaur. The performance might be there and yada-yada-yada but the Eco-Nazi's would have a field day.

[450rboy]

i say it honda did come back with the 250r. and with a few modifications to it. but they did honda would be selling enough of them they wouldn't be able to keep up with the people. honda would be rich.

this what i think if the 250r would come back out like it should

[nifty450]

i heard that this is the last year for the production of banshees from the guy at the local yamaha dealership? anyone else heard this?

[r450rr]

its about time... nah j/k


id say that it is because 2 strokes are going extinct slowly but surely..i have herd this before but the kept making them so i dunno, but it would surprise me at all if they did..


but on the other hand honda told everyone that 00 was the year they was going to stop making the ol 300.. so u would think that yamaha would say something about it, but there yamaha and i wouldnt put it past them... thats why i am on this site

[2004TRX450R]

I haven't heard anything about them dropping the Banshee. That would be kind of stupid as they probably make a ton on each one they sell. There is no R&D going into them they are pretty much the same since about '90or 91 and the only difference there was the J arms turned into A arms. Then they put brake lights on them. The only thing they have to do is come up with some different graphics for them and dump a different color die in the plastic. But they pretty much have had every color in the plastic so I guess all they have to do is figure out what combo of colors they want this year. Also I have never heard anything about the 300 being dropped. I hate the way these rumors get spread around before they are confirmed.

[r450rr]

what are u talking about ,,, i am talking about the trx 300 4x4 and 2x4 not the 300ex,.. in fact i got proof that the slowtrax 300 was being dropped cause i have a brachure on it i will scan it if u dont beleive me...

but i was talking about the trx 300, and yes honda did say that 2000 was the last year that they was making them..sad but true

[2004TRX450R]

Oh my bad. I just assumed that you were talking about the EX for some reason. Ya they dropped the 300 when they introduced the Rancher. Still I keep hearing from people that "this is the last year for the Banshee" then the next year and the next year and the next year they keep showing up.

[Honda]

Thank the EPA and C.A.R.B. for the demise of the 2 stroke motor. The reason the manufactures are trying to get away from the two stroke is because.

A. They haven't found a way to get it to meet increasingly strict requirements for air pollution.
B. The California Air Resource Board is demanding cleaner more efficient Gasoline engines be produced and sold.
C. Honda has always had a green thumb, they wan't to produce cleaner burning lower emission vehicles.

Basically you can blame the EPA and C.A.R.B..

I like two strokes, but I have to say I like for strokes better. More torque and much better fuel economy. You also don't have to mix the gas and oil or worry about constantly fouling plugs.

Note to Yamblaster200: Honda did not re release the 250R because that would have been STUPID. The 250R is 15 year old technology, no smart person is going to go out and buy an atv with 15 year old technology for todays retail prices when you could buy a Leagers or similar custom built for a little more $.
Would most of us buy a new R if it was released? I would have to say yes, but I don't know that it would get the sales numbers that a newer more high tech vehicle would.

I think that as technolgy improves, the manufactures will be able to produce 2 stroke motors that run much cleaner and without the hassles of todays engines. The truth of it is however, by then the fourstroke motor may end up being so good that we won't want the 2 stroke.

[seatec]

Comparetivly(sp?) speaking , hOw many years and Yen's have gone into high performance 2 anf 4 strokes respectively? Many more (so far) in 2's i would think so once the fours bangers have the same amoutn of R&D into them they may be much better than a 2-stroke ever was. I just think that for a manufacturer a 2-stroke might be a better deal to produce. THey are cheaper to build i think and generate more revenue due to more frequent rebuilds. I may be way off with this assumption so lets hear it.

[Pappy]

honda makes no business sense at all?
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id say they capture more then thier share of the market with the new honda. btw....what quad do you produce again?


They come out with the 400ex...which sold like he11 and now the 450r which will do the same...but what i dont understand is all they had to do was in '99 just re-release the 89 250r...even exactly the way it was in 89.
---------------------------------------------------

450r which will do the same...(you answered your own question)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and 4 strokes are hear to stay. i like 2 strokes myself but the 4 strokes are way more advanced now and a stock R wont hold a candle to it. (yeah yeah flame away)

[seatec]

Originally posted by Pappy


and 4 strokes are hear to stay. i like 2 strokes myself but the 4 strokes are way more advanced now and a stock R wont hold a candle to it. (yeah yeah flame away)

Hey, when you are right, you are right!:devil:

[02Yellow400]

Does everyone not realize that they are banning the production of new two strokes? I think there are already a few states which in 2005 i believe no more new 2 strokes can be sold.

Dont you think honda would have thought about something like that? Im sure the folks at honda R&D have quite a bit more knowledge on whats going on the most of us.

[seatec]

Originally posted by 02Yellow400

Dont you think honda would have thought about something like that? Im sure the folks at honda R&D have quite a bit more knowledge on whats going on the most of us.

Gee, i hope so because if they are winging it like me i dont have much hope for their future:devil:

[86atc250r]

Why didn't Honda just resume production of the 250R back in 1999?

Well.... You have to think about what's went on since 1989.

Do you think Honda simply turned out the lights, vacated the facotry where 250Rs were originally produced, and left it to be immediately reopened at some later, undetermined date?

Heck no. They converted that factory to produce some other machine. Tooling was likely sold off or destroyed as well as the intellectual materials.

It's not as simple as going back to the factory, flipping on the light switches, dusting the equipment off, and cranking out quads.

So - why didn't they do it anyway? They are looking to the future. They know 2 strokes are going away (as posted previously). They didn't want to pour dollars into a project that will have to be terminated at some foreseeable point as well as one that has environmental and legal concerns.

How about build a machine that puts out roughly the same stock HP as a 250r, is based on the original 250r chassis design, has a reliable, clean (and already existing) 4 stroke engine - and also equip it with an e-starter so it appeals to a broader audience.... Enter the 400EX - and we all know how well that plan went.....

Those are just the obvious reasons. Who knows how many issues exist within Honda corporate that no one from outside looking in would ever think of...

[Evan]

I think honda hit a homerun with the 400ex just like they did with the 250R-in stock form neither quad is the fastest on the market, but with the right mods its an awesome handling quad and can be built to be fast. No loss there.

I think honda could find a loophole with all the environmentalist crap, where theres a will theres a way-sell them as closed course racing machines like the dirtbikes. Its sad we sit and let these eco freaks take away our freedom. Its just like the crap about the ozone layer-they are finding out now it was all a big joke, even scientist admit there was no hole in the ozone layer-anyone can screw around with a model and get the results they want. Its that the eco freaks want to control people, and want people to live like they want (live in trees and eat vegatables) They are as crooked as lawyers....ok im done ranting on them.

Sure the 4strokes are getting better, but dollar, for dollar, and cc for cc, the 2strokes are still the king of power and always will be, they are simple machines(all they are is a air compressor moving air in and out)

But does anyone else find it fair they can run 450s against 265s ? They started off around what? 400ccs, and gradually bumped it up to 450 while the 2stroke gets nothing? I dont think thats very fair. Would you race a 400ex against a raptor stock for stock? I think not.

[seatec]

how much can you over bore a 250 or sleeve down a 500?(or destroke.

[Evan]

its called new cylinders....or the manufacturer can build it to the correct cc size limit.

[seatec]

Originally posted by Evan
its called new cylinders....or the manufacturer can build it to the correct cc size limit.

ITS CALLED NEW .... N need to get smart here Pal.:D

[r450rr]

ok time for a off the subject question.. i was sitting here and wandering if there is a scientific definition for horsepower..i mean are they some kind of equation or what any info would be nice.. im just curious, no need for smart remarks,, thanx

[Evan]

1.00 HP = 746 W
torque (lb-ft) = 5252 x hp / rpm
hp = rpm x torque (lb-ft) / 5252

[r450rr]

what does the varible w stand for?

[Jason Lowery]

W stands for watts. By the way, major manufacturers like Honda are being slapped with a 2-stroke ban but small volume manufacturers like ATK are exempt because it would damage their business. By the way, ATK is testing a 700cc 2-stroke dirtbike as we speak!!

[r450rr]

thanx,,for the watts part..

2 strokes are going extinct though, there is to much against them now days plus companies are putting alot more R and D into the big bore four strokes..but i still say in a few years 2 strokes will be gone..its not our fault its the envirormentalists .. and all those standards and stuff no offense to anyone fron cali i mean really no offense, but everthing has to be approved for cali..

(really please no offense)

[Jason Lowery]

Hey, I agree with you 100%. I own 2&4 strokes and love them each in their own way. Whatever the factories decide to churn out in the coming years, I will be happy just to ride the wheels off of it.

[BigThumper33]

How off is a 450 against a 250. A 250 makes twice as many power strokes a 450 in the same amount of time...

Also it can be up to a 265, twice that would be up to a 530.

4 stroke technology is starting to really make some impressive power considering they should technically produce half the horsepower as its smaller cousin in the same amount of time....

[86atc250r]

2 strokes are very inefficient anywhere except at their peak power - then they suddenly become pretty efficient, which is the reason for the "powerband".

Pipe, porting, and other factors all come together to create a "supercharging" effect that really makes the engine come to life.

4 strokes are smoother across the board. They are a lot more efficient at a much wider range of RPMs - however, they sacrifice peak power.

2 strokes can be very fun to ride because of their peaky and powerful nature. 4 strokes, especially modern ones can also produce very good power, but their strength is in the width of their useable RPM range.

This 2 stroke inefficiency is what's going to ultimately kill them. 2 strokes pass a lot of unburnt hydrocarbons into the atmosphere due to their inefficiencies. Eco Nazi's don't care for burnt hydrocarbons and they REALLY don't like unburnt hydrocarbons.

Modern 4 strokes compete with 2 strokes by turning more RPM and developing lots of top end power, but by still having useable power down low.

Personally, I'm more of a 2 stroke guy - although I've been racing 4 strokes for the last couple years. I'm just glad this latest generation of 4 strokes is turning out to be so good.....

It's unfortunate that the eco nazis are getting their way with killing 2 strokes - if the manufacturers had reason to dump more R&D money into them, there's no telling what ultimately could be done with the technology....

[Chevy454]

Also worth mentioning are the size (physical dimensions), weight, and relative simplicity of the 2-cycle engine...which ultimately makes them cheaper and easier to packge. It takes *roughly* half the displacement for a 2-cycle to equal the peak power of an equivalent 4-cycle engine, but as stated before, requires more revolutions to do so...the higher torque peak of the 2-cycle MUST use gearing to it's advantage, similar to the way a high-strung small block Chevy does. But, more revs means more cylinder wear, but that's offset by not having the valvetrain wear of a 4-cycle. As usual, we're gonna end up paying more in the end.

86atc250r: I share your dream of 2-cycle development. I *think* I remember reading somewhere that one of the German auto-mans (M-B maybe?) was working on making a cleaner 2-cylce, and was seeing good results, but lack of interest stopped the R&D money, so it was dropped...darn shame. Kind of like the old 2-cycle Detroit diesels that were super/turbo-charged...a high-winder for a diesel, but a definite conversation piece!

[86atc250r]

We have a Detroit/Onan 350KW generator at the office - talk about cool ---

V12 - 2 stroke
Twin Superchargers
Twin Turbochargers

Apparently they wanted to move some air thru the engine :)

[Chevy454]

Apparently they wanted to move some air thru the engine

LOL!! I bet that thing sounds wicked!!

[Woody_YFZ]

Originally posted by nifty450
i heard that this is the last year for the production of banshees from the guy at the local yamaha dealership? anyone else heard this?

I have heard that also.

[lukester720]

Originally posted by r450rr
ok time for a off the subject question.. i was sitting here and wandering if there is a scientific definition for horsepower..i mean are they some kind of equation or what any info would be nice.. im just curious, no need for smart remarks,, thanx

Evan is right but I thought this was interesting the old definition for horsepower was the amount of power it takes to lift 1000 pounds 1 foot in one second. That was the definition from way back.... Remember I just said it was interesting how it used to be measured I know its not how they do it now so don't bash me!

[r450rr]

so why did they call it horse power??? did they use a horse or something way back

[BigThumper33]

yes, they used horses to do all the heavy manual labor back in the day.

I believe they simply judged that a horse could move 1000lbs 1 foot in one second. This was considered a horse's power, thus the birth of horsepower lol

[lukester720]

It was probably when they were switching from horses to automobiles so people would be able to compare the power of there automobile to something.

[Baley69]

They have said its the last year of the Banshee every year since 99'.

[Oregon450R]

On the question of a scientific calculation for H.P...sorry I dunno the #'s off hand (maybe someone can fill in the blanks) but I believe it is a calculation of torque multiplied by RPM then divided by "a number I don't remember"

[29FTEX]

This may or may not be what everyone is looking for.

http://www.mste.uiuc.edu/dildine/tcd_files/program5.htm

Here's another formula I found:

Horsepower = torque x rpm / 5252

Here's a funny one:

http://www.montereymustangs.com/features/hp_calc.php

[BigThumper33]

Originally posted by lukester720
It was probably when they were switching from horses to automobiles so people would be able to compare the power of there automobile to something.

It really has nothing to do with the switching from horses to automobiles. They used that test to create a new unit. Just like pound, gram, newton, joule, watt, etc. They are just units that describe something. Anything that produces mechanical power has a horsepower rating. Yourself on a bicycle has a horsepower rating...