Cracked 400EX frame

[Nick Cassiano]

I have a 2001 400EX, today when riding with my son over a couple small jumps, I heard a crack noise and did'nt think nothing of it, after a little more riding, I parked mine to help my 8 year old with some jumping moves, I looked over at my quad and noticed the front end was all out of wack. After a couple seconds of looking I noticed that the left front vertical frame tube that supports the shock frame to the lower frame was completely broken off at both ends, after some little inspecting the cracked off tube had been 90% cracked for some time due to the rust on the crack and only an eighth of an inch was clean. What I want to know is, has this happened to any one else out there. I jump alot but nothing too aggresive, not usually over 8ft. ha ha. Any info would be helpfull. After seeing this I just might go and get a Raptor.

[86atc250r]

That's a known weak spot that's been discussed many times.....

You want to hear some horror stories, check out the Yamaha forums - if you're thinking of getting rid of your 400 because you believe the Raptor will be more trouble free, you're about to make a significant error in judgement....

[400MXer]

mine didn't crack where yours is, but right above the shock mount, luckily i noticed it soon enough and welded it.

But i just recently noticed that i have a small crack by my footpeg. have any of you cracked their before?

[400exRacerX]

Gussett it!!

[Nick Cassiano]

Don't worry I would'nt think of getting a Raptor after all the crap that's going on with those. I guess I'll be welding it up and re-welding the other side just incase.

[86atc250r]

The 3 areas of the frame that are known to have trouble are the area you mentioned.. Right above the upper shock mount (most typical area), and below the foot pegs..

If you roll you quad every once in a while and bend the steering stem, check the attach point where the factory gusset comes down from the stem tower to the upper tubes.

Also if you jump a lot, it's probably worth strengthening the subframe a bit.

If your frame is heavily damaged, buy a new one, last time I checked they were only $400.

Either way, you've got a great excuse to beef up the weak spots and have your frame powdercoated the color of your choice.

I'll be doing a write up on gussetting my frame soon... I had planned on waiting until I got all my stuff back from the powdercoater (helps if he has it all from me :), but I may do a "2 part" report and at least get part one out.... We'll see how much time I have in the next few days...

[NJ300ex]

I am getting mine gusseted right now. It was already cracked and welded by the shockmount and the footpegs. Those seem to be the most common places.

[Nick Cassiano]

I don't know, I'm welding up the frame this weekend, but after talking to all the Raptor owners of the 2002 model, they don't have any problems with them, not to mention throw on a pipe and gain 14 hp. If Honda would come out with a quad with the XR650 motor I would for surely buy!!!!

[Guy400]

As a former Raptor owner, don't believe the 14hp claims. They're simply untrue. The only dyno to ever see that number was a DW test. I just read a thread where a guy just dynoed his piped Raptor at 41hp at the rear wheels. While that's nothing to sneeze at it also isn't 50hp. Some of the replies to that particular thread contained comments from other guys that they were running a similiar set-up and they were getting about 43hp.

But, if you do get a Raptor, please get the 2002! They've fixed all the reliability problems associated with the 2001. The only thing you'll have to deal with is the narrow rear end (a $330 +4 LSR helped that for me though).

[Scott]

You can get replacement sub-frames made. I can probably get you some pictures if anyone's interested. Also, gesset the he!! out of the frame. If any of you do the welding on the frame, you'll see why I've made comments before about them. They are a very thin wall tube compared to other older quads. (like a 300EX/250X or 250R, for instance)

Check the swingarm pivot area as well. Some guys that race or jump a lot have posted on here saying they've developed cracks in that area as well.

[BP Rider]

I would not recommend getting a Raptor. The aluminum A-arms have a strong tendenancy to break off. A few months ago, I was riding with a couple of buddies down a gas line. It's just a dirt road that has a buried natural gas pipe line under it. All along the road are little jumps that go across it. Depending on speed, you can get 4-5 feet of air. Anyway, beyond one of those little jumps, the road dropped almost fifty feet straight down, and we didn't know it until Eric (Raptor owner) flew off of it at about 50 mph. The spot that he landed on was rutted out and his left front wheel hit a small little lip. His left front wheel broke off and went under his quad. Needless to say, he couldn't stay on and flipped several times. It totaled his quad. I was right behind him and flew off at the same speed. I hit the same spot, but nothing broke or bent on mine. I got thrown off and my quad (400 EX) rolled once. That made up my mind about Raptors. Plus on the trails, he wasn't any faster than the 400. Later inspection revealed that the upper A-arm broke in half after it bent back about 3 inches. Yamaha saved about 5 pounds by going to aluminum, but they got one totaled quad in return.

Mike

[Guy400]

The 2002 Raptor's use steel on both upper and lower a-arms. Also, I'd hardly blame Yamaha's use of aluminum concerning broken parts from a 50ft. drop straight down, that's like jumping off a 5 story building and expecting everything to stay tight. You're lucky you're not dead.

I'm not recommending you buy any quad over another, it's your decision. What I am saying is that if you do go with a Raptor, get a 2002.

[BP Rider]

This same guy bought a new (2002) Raptor, and it has aluminum A-arms. We both had the same fall and landed in the same place and my A-arms didn't break or have any problems. Aluminum is not a good choice for front suspension parts. You don't see aftermarket companies using aluminum for those items. It's usually 4130 Chrome moly steel. You're right we are both lucky that we're not dead, especially him, because I almost landed on him.

[Guy400]

BP, is he sure he got a 2002? Several people over at BT have been duped by dealers into believing their quad is a 2002 when in actuality it's a 2001. The upper a-arms for '02 are steel arms (at least on some new 2002's). Other things to look for; round steel tube rear subframe (instead of the square aluminum tube for '01) and piggyback rear shock (instead of the remote rezzy on '01). This is a little off topic but after Yamaha's handling of the Raptor fiasco I will never be an owner of a new Yamaha quad again. The sad thing is that this is the same company that brought us the R1, the V-Max, the YZ250 and 426, and the Banshee...

[BP Rider]

His is definitely an 02. It has the round (steel) subframe, and the gearing is much better than the 01. But, the A-arms are aluminum. The Jan, 02, ATV Action review of the 02 says they are also. Anyway, I wasn't impressed very much with the Raptor. It is much faster on a drag race, but it isn't on the trails. Plus it just feels funny compared to a 400 or 250R. The bars are high, the seat is too soft, and it is too tippy. Just my .02

Mike

[Nick Cassiano]

I think I'm gonna wait for that new Suzuki DZ400 to come out, it's suppose to handle like the 400EX but with the power of the Raptor, suppose to have 40hp. I think that will be the quad to get. I use to have an old quadsport 230 and it was a very good and dependable quad in it's days. Just my 2cents worth.

[Nick Cassiano]

Honda needs to come out with something new soon, they are way behind on the atv sport quad market, they need to correct the weak frame concern on the 400 chasis and install the XR650 motor, loquid cooling and more suspension travel. If they did that then I would definately get another Honda, they just can't compete with Yamaha's power (or the DS650's). With a little practice on the Raptor, it can beat anything in the woods, plus they seem to have their sh@! together for the 2002 model. The Suzuki needs to be out for a year to work all the bugs out just like the Raptor. I hear that KTM might be coming out with a sport quad also. 500cc, now that would haul ***, they build a good motor. Later all. Going to test drive a Raptor today.

[86atc250r]

Before anyone reads below, keep in mind that my intent here is not to "bash" the Raptor, it is to be informative - I do have quite a bit of negative things to say about it, but all of it is based on fact, and in around 1.5 years of racing now with them & having a couple good buddies that own them, these are my observations.
-----------------------------

For being way behind in the ATV sport market, Honda sure wins a whole lot of races - and I'm talking about the local level where "production" machines are actually being used - not the Nationals where the machines are completely aftermarket, based on Honda geometry...

I race XC in Arkansas, Missouri, and a national or two, and the 400EX almost always typically comes out on top of the Raptor. I beg to differ 100% that it can "with a little practice, beat anything in the woods" - it actually has serious problems competing with the 250R, 400EX, and even, yes - the Banshee in the woods. This is because of a few factors -

The Raptor really doesn't develop THAT much power. The power it does develop is not the best. CV carbs are largely responsible for this in my opinion. CV carbs are not used in ANY performance application in ANY motorsports - they are low performance, emissions carbs typically used in low performance applications like - utility quads, dual sport bikes, streetbike cruisers.

The Raptor (even the 2002) still has all the chassis design flaws of the original.

Almost zero frame rake - the 400EX has approx 15 degrees of frame rake, the 250R around 22 degrees

Short swingarm, long frame - Believe it or not, the Raptor has a shorter swingarm than even a 400EX. I imagine you can guess the kinds of problems this can cause. Funny thing is, even with this short swingarm, the Raptor doesn't turn as well as a 400EX. Ask any honest Raptor owner how their quad holeshots, hill climbs, and powers out of corners.

Narrow stance, top heavy - The Raptor holds a lot of it's weight up high & has a narrow stance. Ask any honest XC racer about how his Raptor corners....

Other problems that haven't been addressed (to my knowledge) -

Tie rod end breakage

Starter one way clutch (sprag gear) problems

Engine clutch problems

Throttle assembly breakage on any kind of impact (every Raptor owner I know has broken their throttle assembly)

Aluminum/steel control arm issue (as far as I know, the uppers are still Aluminum - that's bad) I've seen a lot of accidents caused by or that cause bent/broken upper arms in a racing environment.

Poor swingarm design - large area of low clearance - crappy chain adjuster design.

Poor airbox design - can easily allow unfiltered air to enter the engine

Oil blowing - look at any Raptor with much time on it near the oil rezzy, usually you'll find that area oily & nasty.

Oil line, radiator line, and oil filter exposure - you need guards for these exposed items.

Control arm bushing instead of the spherical bearings Honda uses.

One very important aspect for me (or anyone that races or rides hard) is replacement parts prices... The 400EX, since it is manufactured in America, has VERY inexpensive parts replacement prices. The Raptor, on the other hand is very expensive to repair.

Also keep in mind that the 2002 Raptor is FAR from proven - it's only been out a couple months, it will certainly take longer than that to prove itself, especially knowing Yamaha's reputation for correcting issues with their quads. The issues that have shown up on the 2001's are very serious for a first year quad - how many things will show up 3 years down the line? How many things will not be re-engineered and be recurring problems (starter one way clutch, for instance)?

Not trying to talk trash about the Raptor, however I'm pretty down on it, just because Yamaha could have done so much more with this quad - just making sure you know the facts before making a mistake. Take it for a ride & look it over, with this stuff in mind - then make an informed decision.

If you are dead set on replacing your 400EX, I'd wait just a little while and see how the new Suzuki does - new models aren't necessarly plagued with problems, look at the 400EX which has little more than cosmetic updates since its introduction in 1998. Also keep in mind that the rumors of a 650 Honda keep getting more frequent (not that a 650EX would necessarly be "better" than a 400EX - is a CR500 "better" than a CR250?). Also check into the Cannondale.

One other thing to keep in mind is that neither the Raptor nor the Suzuki develops 40 HP.

The Raptor is closer to 35 at the rear wheels (give or take a couple for dyno differences). The Suzuki DRZ puts out about 36 to it's rear wheel. The quad will certainly be lower since it is using the detuned DRZ400S dual sport version of the engine and has more rotating mass to turn. The dual sport engine uses a CV carb instead of the FCR that the performance bike uses, lower compression, and likely less aggressive cams. I'd look for the Suzuki to realistically fall between Raptor and 400EX power levels.

[Guy400]

I never raced competitvely for points or anything like that but I will agree with most all of Gabe's points. The dual CV carbs do suck. While I don't feel the Raptor was sluggish I do think the 'snappiness' could be better with a FCR.

Frame rake- the attached picture shows a decent amount of frame rake for the Raptor. The other reply I've attached a picture of a stock 400EX. Looks like the Raptor has the same, if not more, rake to it as the 400 has.

Short swingarm- the nose does want to lift coming out of corners when under hard throttle. The nose seemed to stay planted pretty well on hillclimbs. I felt more secure on my Raptor than I did on the 400 (but that could be due to not riding it all the time).

By biggest b!tch about the Raptor- too tall and too narrow. I said this at Bluetraxx- Yamaha needs to shave about 2" from the frame height and add 2" to the width. The COG is way too high on the Raptor.

Never heard of any tie rod problems, throttle breakage or it blowing oil out the reservoir (not to say that these problems don't exist, just that I haven't heard anything about these).

The starter clutch, tranny clutch, tranny, aluminum upper a-arms and air filter are frequently talked about problems and are all real.

Haven't heard of a problem with oil filter or lines being damaged due to exposure but they lend themselves to that given the right circumstance.

Anyway, here are the side by sides of the frame rakes.

[Guy400]

And here's the 400

[86atc250r]

The point at which the picture of the 400 was taken shows the frame before where the rake starts (the rake is not visible). It begins just behind the rear control arm mount..

If I remember correctly the Raptor's rake is < 5 degrees. I've measured the 400EX at 15 degrees. Like I said the 250R is approx 22 degrees.

I've got 3 buddies with Raptors, all have broken the thumb throttle housings at least once. Granted they are due to turning the quad over, but we haven't had any such luck with the 400 (or any of my Hondas over the years, and God knows I've put them thru some serious crashes)... Seems like the Raptor's assembly just has a weak spot.

I can't remember where the oil blows from, but it seems like it comes from near the reservoir itself. It's not a whole lot, but it is kinda messy & nasty looking - may just be the one friend's quad, haven't paid attention to others, but it seems like I've noticed it on others though. You may have me on this one :)

Aftermarket "Honda style" tie rod ends are available for the Raptor & Banshee to correct the weak design of the stock Yamaha Parts. Althought I haven't heard a whole lot of complaints recently, I heard a quite a few before those parts became widely available.

I have an internet buddy that went from a Banshee to a Raptor that complained a ton about the Raptor's hill climbing abilities - that combined with what I know about it's chassis is why I mentioned the hillclimbing. One of my buddies that races his Raptor complains about it's cornering abilities all the time, but prefers the Raptor over his 250R for racing because it fits him so much better (big guy). The tall seat height of the Raptor allows him to transition from the sitting to standing position much more easily & with less fatigue over the course of a race...

The same buddy went riding with me and a guy on his 250R once - we were doing a big climb and the Raptor began to wheelie up.... I was right behind him, so I had to stop (on the fairly steep face of the hill). He had extreme trouble getting the quad going again without wheeling up (this guy also races and is a good rider). Eventually he made it after getting off the quad and several attempts, both me and the 250R had no trouble whatsoever (250R had a more casual rider than a racing type)... When we got to the top of the hill, the then brand new Raptor experienced the infamous clutch fade.... Another reason I mentioned the hillclimbing.

[beerock]

I knew about all the problems with the raptor(or any yamaha). I never felt like listing them all because the list of problems is way to long.

86atc250r points out one of the MAJOR reason why honda is better.

Honda also handles better, always has too.

[Guy400]

Gabe, the oil near the top of the reservoir is probably due to spillage when changing the oil. They put the rezzy so high in the frame that the dipstick hole is difficult to reach. I had a skinny 18" funnel and the oil had to run on a very shallow angle to get into the rez. With this slow drain I frequently removed the funnel thinking it had drained fully only to find that the funnel still had oil in it and it would run down the rez and the adjacent frame rail. We've got a couple of hills on my grandfather's land and I climbed them much easier on my Raptor than I did on Jeremy's 400, again, probably mostly due to the fact that I don't have near the seat time on the 400. The nose on the 400 just seemed light to me all the time, scary light. It was very balanced in the air but felt light when climbing, light when accelerating, etc. I'm certain that this could be overcome with more acclimation to the bike.

I enjoyed my Raptor as a recreational trail bike but would not recommend it for competitive racing. Yamaha really had a chance to bring the sport world to it's knees but they missed the boat. They should've taken Suzuki's path. Copy the 250R/400EX frame (imitation is the sincerest form of flattery) and run a proven, reliable ~400cc motor. Take a 250R styled frame and use the YZ426 engine. This would've lightened the whole equation at least 35-40 lbs. and brought the Raptor into a real fighting weight.

[86atc250r]

That may be the source of the oil... I just noticed his always had residue and stuff stuck to it there after races - seemed like I'd seen it before on others as well...

I agree that Yamaha had a great opportunity and hosed it. Maybe Suzuki will have it somewhat right (I really wish they would have used the DRZ400E engine instead of the DRZ400S engine)...

[James70214]

Heres another Rapta Disasta Story
My friend has a 2001 raptor and has already snapped the frame. Got that fixed. Then snaped the sub frame. Got that fixed. Then snapped the axle. Got a lonestar. Thank god it ws under warranty. He does not even ride that hard. Now 3 months after he got it it is getting a new clutch and has to get it bored.01 over and a new cam and piston. He has had a horrible time with it. He does tke care of the motor it is not like he neglected it.

[mrusk]

It seems that both the raptor and 400ex have frame cracking proablems. They proably dont put as much quality into these frames as they used to. In theroy both frame should be stronger then the 250r frame due to them using round tubing. However i do not think this is the case.

Yes alot of people that race are cracking there 250r frames, but these are OLD machines, not brand new 6k machines.

matt

[Mitch400EX]

I think that there are only a certain few 400EX frames that prematurely crack. I've beaten the living sh- t out of my frame for the last 2 years (2000 model) by repeatedly landing hard jumps. That is pretty much all I do when play riding, just find a jump and keep on hitting it. My bike also has a season of racing on it. When my old works were on their last legs, I would bottom really really hard. The shocks failed before the frame did. There must be a few bad batches of frames out there, particularly in the newer 400EX's.

[400exRacerX]

What is frame rake?

[Guy400]

The angle of the lower frame tubes when the quad is sitting on level ground. For our sport quads you want more rake (steeper angle front to rear). More rake helps deflect the bottom of the quad off of rocks, stumps, the ground when the suspension collapses. The flatter the angle of the lower frame the more the frame 'digs' into these obstacles.

[86atc250r]

It also allows you to attack gnarly square edge's, roots, and such faster since the suspension is not only able to absorb straight up and down movement, but some front to back movement.

Essentially, it helps the front tires climb over trail obsticles instead of deflecting off them....

[mat]

Originally posted by BP Rider
I would not recommend getting a Raptor. The aluminum A-arms have a strong tendenancy to break off. A few months ago, I was riding with a couple of buddies down a gas line. It's just a dirt road that has a buried natural gas pipe line under it. All along the road are little jumps that go across it. Depending on speed, you can get 4-5 feet of air. Anyway, beyond one of those little jumps, the road dropped almost fifty feet straight down, and we didn't know it until Eric (Raptor owner) flew off of it at about 50 mph. The spot that he landed on was rutted out and his left front wheel hit a small little lip. His left front wheel broke off and went under his quad. Needless to say, he couldn't stay on and flipped several times. It totaled his quad. I was right behind him and flew off at the same speed. I hit the same spot, but nothing broke or bent on mine. I got thrown off and my quad (400 EX) rolled once. That made up my mind about Raptors. Plus on the trails, he wasn't any faster than the 400. Later inspection revealed that the upper A-arm broke in half after it bent back about 3 inches. Yamaha saved about 5 pounds by going to aluminum, but they got one totaled quad in return.

Mike

Samething happened to me. However, I didn't have to go off a 50ft cliff for it to snap. I was simply riding down a smooth dirt road, and next thing I knew I was flying OTB. Who else has this happened to?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v26/pajama/DSCN0311.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v26/pajama/DSCN0309.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v26/pajama/DSCN0312.jpg

[400EXTRA]

Originally posted by 86atc250r
That's a known weak spot that's been discussed many times.....

You want to hear some horror stories, check out the Yamaha forums - if you're thinking of getting rid of your 400 because you believe the Raptor will be more trouble free, you're about to make a significant error in judgement....

yea whatever yu do dont get a raptor they suck get a 450r.

[DOHC]

I cracked my 400ex frame but i hit a tree in 4th gear (cracked right under the gas tank)

[400exrider707]

This thread is like 5 years old....:rolleyes:

[JOEX]

Originally posted by mat
Samething happened to me. However, I didn't have to go off a 50ft cliff for it to snap. I was simply riding down a smooth dirt road, and next thing I knew I was flying OTB. Who else has this happened to?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v26/pajama/DSCN0311.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v26/pajama/DSCN0309.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v26/pajama/DSCN0312.jpg
Most likely it was damaged at a prior time and finally completely broke while you were 'simply riding down a smooth dirt road'.