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HMFer
12-26-2003, 01:20 PM
HMF would like to extend an open invitation to anyone would would like to come to our shop and run the dynos with us, we are not trying to scam anyone. All are testing is done with stock tires that can make up to a 6 h.p. difference down

Robb/HMF

chad502ex
12-26-2003, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by HMFer
HMF would like to extend an open invitation to anyone would would like to come to our shop and run the dynos with us, we are not trying to scam anyone. All are testing is done with stock tires that can make up to a 6 h.p. difference down

Robb/HMF

I would prefer FREE samples from HMF!!! HEHE!!

stock tires on a dyno? why not slicks on all your dyno runs? that way your company provides consumers with a more accurate RWHP indication, as opposed to stock rubber low traction results?

BTW, please realize I'm only asking questions here, not arguing- just asking. Please, take no offense. Your open invitation would be seriously be considered if I'm every in Ohio,.... :)

Thanks
chad502ex

Hammer trx450r
12-26-2003, 01:52 PM
hmmm drive to ohio to test a pipe from a company who argues with kids .........what do i do.........what do i do

Hammer trx450r
12-26-2003, 01:53 PM
have u read some of these posts lol

Pappy
12-26-2003, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by Hammer trx450r
hmmm drive to ohio to test a pipe from a company who argues with kids .........what do i do.........what do i do

i dont see them arguing...i see an open invitation to clarify any discrepency in thier testing results. either take them up on it or shut it. its very simple.

lukester720
12-26-2003, 02:24 PM
I glad to have people like hmfer and jnine giving their opionons on the 450r they've actually had them in their possesion before unlike every one else on here.

Hmfer, Sparks racing said it has 42 hp. Besides tires what else may be making the difference?

Guy400
12-26-2003, 02:49 PM
Using stock tires will net much lower horsepower results than if run with dyno tires. There's a big chunk of the horsepower discrepancy there. Also, every dyno is different and atmospheric conditions are certainly different than when Sparks ran their test.

I think it's a nice comment on HMF's business pratices to openly invite the public to watch them dyno run the quads. I'd rather have that than this behind-the-scenes witchcraft some other companies do.

lukester720
12-26-2003, 02:57 PM
Thanks for the info guy400!

I agree with you, that's on reason I like this site is because you get to here from people who actually build parts and motors for these quads.

Thanks guys!

chad502ex
12-26-2003, 03:05 PM
Yes, there is "a big chunk of the horsepower discrepancy there" and the discrepancy could have been prevented if slicks were used during the measurements. I guess, I have to ask: Why would an exhaust manufacture post dyno results of thier NEW product using stock tires when they could never accurately predict the transfer of horsepower to the dyno by using stock rubber; thus, not being able to accurately measure the pipes gain? Catch my drift?


Oh, I agree with the comment on the manufactures "Stand-up" offer to have an "Open Door" program. That's professionalism.

chad502ex.com

Guy400
12-26-2003, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by chad502ex
I guess, I have to ask: Why would an exhaust manufacture post dyno results of thier NEW product using stock tires when they could never accurately predict the transfer of horsepower to the dyno by using stock rubber; thus, not being able to accurately measure the pipes gain? Catch my drift?I don't know. They only had the quad for one afternoon so it didn't allow them a whole lot of time for tuning, etc. Maybe they didn't have any dyno tires on site the day they ran this quad.

chad502ex
12-26-2003, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by Guy400
I don't know. They only had the quad for one afternoon so it didn't allow them a whole lot of time for tuning, etc. Maybe they didn't have any dyno tires on site the day they ran this quad.

Thanks Guy, I realize those obvious possibilities. I would think for pipe manufactures, big #'s sells- not small #'s. Don't forget big #'s are alot more accurate #'s with slicks (maximum traction). I goal for those type of tests are for "Repeatabilty". Could they repeat those measurements again using stock rubber or slicks?

Oh, one more thing; I second the enjoyment and the valuable feedback that this site offers us atv enthusiast.

Chad502EX.com

Doibugu2
12-26-2003, 03:42 PM
I give props to these companies coming here and laying it all out on the line. exriders has become a force, I mean how many people have gotten either free or replacement parts by posting a thread on exriders?

For HMF to stand behind there results is pretty awesome. They didn't come out with some BS # like 10 hp, there # seems to be pretty reasonible gain.

Also, I think we should cut them some slack, they only had the quad for 1 day, heck had to borrow it at that, and they even said that.

Lets give this a rest till the stupid thing is released to everyone, please?:blah:

tdsongster
12-26-2003, 03:53 PM
I greatly applaud HMF for offering to do dyno testing. Many of the aftermarket companies that sell products for Quads proclaim increase in HP, but I almost never see a dyno chart backing up their claims!

I am not sure why this is, if you are building an automobile, almost every aftermarket part out there has dyno results. The magazines that cover hot rods, and engine builds always show their results on a dyno as well.

I wish this would become common practice in the ATV industry.

Once again, HMF is going in the right direction, I will keep an eye out for them when making future ATV purchases!

2004TRX450R
12-26-2003, 05:37 PM
I would also like to aplaud HMF for the offer. I'd show up but it is a bit of a drive from WA. However 6hp sounds a bit much just for sock tires. If the quad is set up right there should be no slipping anyway so there shouldn't be a traction problem. The only problem I have seen with dynoing dirtbikes with knobies is that it makes the graph all gittery. It doesn't really lose much power and 6hp on something with only 42 claimed at the crank is a HUGE difference. I could belive maybe 2 or 3hp. Also like I have said before the claimed numbers are from the crank not the wheels so you will have some loss through the drive train as well.

VIC
12-26-2003, 06:03 PM
Why would any pipe company lie and give lower #'s they are trying to sell their pipes it wouldn't benifit them to give low numbers unless they are real.

Guy400
12-26-2003, 06:05 PM
Maybe the Yamaha gremlin snuck in and smeared butter all over the dyno's rollers:eek:

nhbanshee
12-26-2003, 06:08 PM
I actually like the idea of companies posting dyno results using knobby tires instead of slicks. Unless you plan on doing asphault dragging, you wont be running slicks, so you will be losing the HP that their dyno numbers are showing.

In other words, by them using knobby tires, you are getting a true HP figure that will reflect what YOUR machine will have on the MX track, trails, or sand pits!

Why buy a part that is showing HP numbers you wont have, because you wont be running the same set up that they did during the dyno??? It doesnt make sense to me.

chad502ex
12-26-2003, 07:01 PM
unbelievable.

It would be a great day for me if the ppl here that believe those dyno 33.1hp dyno results line up next to my 502 with their pink slips to see if their slip-on pipe really performs.

yea, butter was obviously all over those rollers. You'd have to be crazy to think HONDA would mass produce a quad with ONLY 5 more hp than a stock 400ex, even if the 450 has stock sneakers on. 33.1hp with stock tires for a 450r, not hardly!

nevermind, one more month, you'll see!

chad502ex.com

Guy400
12-26-2003, 07:13 PM
Do I believe the 450R puts out more HP to the wheels than 33.1--yes.

Do I believe HMF intentionally raised/lowered/misinformed/skewed the results--no.

I fully anticipate that other dyno pulls will reflect higher numbers, even future pulls done by HMF. I wasn't there so I can't say what the temperature, humidity, state of tune, etc. was for that particular pull. Truthfully, I'm not all that concerned with it either. I'm more interested in what percentage gains HMF made on their own dyno on that particular day. Making a xx% gain in horsepower and torque speaks more to me than a peak number does anyway.

lukester720
12-26-2003, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by nhbanshee
I actually like the idea of companies posting dyno results using knobby tires instead of slicks. Unless you plan on doing asphault dragging, you wont be running slicks, so you will be losing the HP that their dyno numbers are showing.

In other words, by them using knobby tires, you are getting a true HP figure that will reflect what YOUR machine will have on the MX track, trails, or sand pits!

Why buy a part that is showing HP numbers you wont have, because you wont be running the same set up that they did during the dyno??? It doesnt make sense to me.
--------------------------------------------------------
You may be right nhbanshee but I use different tires for different surfaces and conditions to get maxium traction. I would probably use slicks for maximium traction on the dyno. I use sand tires in the sand. Holeshots or claws on the track
I don't think knobbies would give maximium traction on a dyno but I don't know a lot about them so I could be wrong.

chad502ex
12-26-2003, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by Guy400
Do I believe HMF intentionally raised/lowered/misinformed/skewed the results--no.


Let me clear this issue too! I don't believe they skewed the results either! I never said that! I just do not beleive the results were accurate. 33.1 stock hp is not accurate.

yes ambient temp, humidity, barametric pressure, motor temp, transfer of power (aka traction) play a part in the final results, but NOT THAT MUCH with a liquid cooled state-of-the-art thumper.

chad502ex

norcalatver
12-26-2003, 08:07 PM
I have had first hand experience having my 493 dynoed by two completely different people. The first time was here locally, 50 feet altitude and stock tires. After seeing Gt Thunders 51.7 h.p. on FDO's 473, I was expecting similar numbers. But that was not the case. My 493 came in at 44 h.p. About 2 months later I was in Nevada. At Sand Mountain they had a dyno set up. So I thought what the heck! This time it was at 4,000 ft elevation and they had dyno tires. Amazingly enough, I had nearly identical 44 h.p. results. To this day I do not understand how Gt Thunder gets there numbers so high. Both of the dyno operators I used said their machines were S.A.E. corrected. And FDO built mine with the same specs as GT's except mine is 20cc larger! So as far as h.p. and dynoes, I still don't understand them, but it was really nice to be able to dial my jetting in with the sniffer on the dyno. Before I went in I was running way too rich. After dialing it in they were able to get nearly 4 h.p. more for me as compared to the 40 h.p. when I first ran it.

Hammer trx450r
12-27-2003, 06:27 AM
I'm sorry for thinking this is funny but maybe im new at this but how can u make a pipe in one afternoon with the bike? Is there no testing after its made? is there no fine tuning? Is HMF a part of FMF? LIsten don't challange us, we are the paying customer, we challange you to make the best pipe and we will definatly buy it.

Hammer trx450r
12-27-2003, 06:29 AM
If your pipe wins on sunday ill buy on monday

Hammer trx450r
12-27-2003, 06:45 AM
now thats "put up or shut up"

2004TRX450R
12-27-2003, 06:49 AM
Originally posted by Hammer trx450r
I'm sorry for thinking this is funny but maybe im new at this but how can u make a pipe in one afternoon with the bike? Is there no testing after its made? is there no fine tuning? Is HMF a part of FMF? LIsten don't challange us, we are the paying customer, we challange you to make the best pipe and we will definatly buy it.

Being the engine is for the most part a CRF450 they probably more or less used a CRF450 style pipe and modified it slightly to fit on the quad. This is purely speculation but it seems that would make it a lot easier to fab one up in such short notice. Also I would like to know if they dynoed the quad with the baffle out of the stock pipe and if so what it dynoed at as compared to the HMF exhaust.

Hammer trx450r
12-27-2003, 07:08 AM
Hey HMF why not instead of challanging us to something 99% can't do. Tell us the proccess you took in building this pipe to be the best pipe for our $500. And tell me that your heart and soul went in to this pipe( weeks of testing,etc.) I just don't think its a good move when we and you dont even have the bike

chad502ex
12-27-2003, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by norcalatver
I have had first hand experience having my 493 dynoed by two completely different people. The first time was here locally, 50 feet altitude and stock tires. After seeing Gt Thunders 51.7 h.p. on FDO's 473, I was expecting similar numbers. But that was not the case. My 493 came in at 44 h.p. About 2 months later I was in Nevada. At Sand Mountain they had a dyno set up. So I thought what the heck! This time it was at 4,000 ft elevation and they had dyno tires. Amazingly enough, I had nearly identical 44 h.p. results. To this day I do not understand how Gt Thunder gets there numbers so high. Both of the dyno operators I used said their machines were S.A.E. corrected. And FDO built mine with the same specs as GT's except mine is 20cc larger! So as far as h.p. and dynoes, I still don't understand them, but it was really nice to be able to dial my jetting in with the sniffer on the dyno. Before I went in I was running way too rich. After dialing it in they were able to get nearly 4 h.p. more for me as compared to the 40 h.p. when I first ran it.

norcalatver,

I beleive your #'s. I've witnessed dynos from 416, 440, 490, 496, 502, and 508ex and all dynos ranges from 42-48hp. The real deal with that is displacement gives more bottom end torque not hp. Thats why the hp numbers don't change much. HP is a derivitive of torque.

Air/Fuel ratio is really what the dyno is good for. It's possible to get as much as 6 extra hp on the dyno after you dial it in,....

chad502ex.com

29FTEX
12-27-2003, 08:23 AM
2004TRX450R,

That is what Scott at Sparks Racing said they are going to do. He said they have a proven pipe and silencer with the CRF450 motor, and they are waiting to get a quad to get all the pipe's bends and hangers in the right spots. He never said if they are going to test it (dyno,etc) beforehand, but knowing Sparks they will. He told me about 2 weeks after they get a quad, a pipe will be ready for purchase. So, I believe they will do some testing.

I had Scott put me on the waiting list for a Sparks pipe.

C41Xracer
12-27-2003, 01:16 PM
the 33 hp that HMF got....was that with a factory air filter or aftermarket:confused: ....that will also make a difference with hp

HMFer
12-27-2003, 01:41 PM
Thanks for all the responses to our post. Keep the posts coming...we do pay attention.

Our method is very simple. We use stock tires on the stock run and stock tires after we re-jet and install the pipe. This shows actual horsepower gains that you can expect from putting on the HMF exhaust. Our business is selling top quality, performance enhancing exhaust pipes for a variety of machines. We give you the only numbers that you need to know from us...what you will gain from ONLY changing the exhaust.

We are not a giant corporation, we are a small, accessible company that you can talk to on the phone, see at GNCC races or stop in when you're in the neighborhood. We really did have a working slip-on prototype in the first hour that we had the 450R here. We can do that because Hans, the owner, and Mike, his protege are able to stop what they are doing and develop a new pipe on the spot without having to get approval from the corporate management hierarchy. What that means to you is that you get a spot-on quality controlled pipe at a great price...just the way we would like to be treated. Believe it or not but this is fun for us to be able to get the latest, greatest bike in here and develop a new system for it.

We appreciate seeing customer loyalty to our product or to anyone else's because that its why we do things the way we do...we're trying to earn more of that by being consistent in our honest approach and customer service.

Check out HMF ENGINEERING.COM (http://www.hmfengineering.com) and you can see that we have over 50 systems developed and ready for sale. All complete with dyno charts for your viewing pleasure.

Joe/HMF

lukester720
12-27-2003, 01:46 PM
Thanks joe I like the way you guys do business.

C41Xracer
12-27-2003, 01:54 PM
HMFer, do you expect to do more dyno runs on the 450r and expect to see any aditional gains?

MIA450R
12-28-2003, 12:04 PM
HMF dude,
4 questions for you:

1/ Could you kindly confirm all of the #'s that are in the dyno charts on your website--for the YFZ and TRX (stock, pipe only and full system)? Your webmaster either has 100x better vision than me or he has poor placement skills--unless he was intentionally trying to obscure some of the information on your website for some reason.

2/ Can you confirm all the airbox, air filter, and jetting mods to the YFZ and TRX for each of these tests? Again, not at all clear on your website...

3/ Can you give us any idea of the db output level of the stock 450R exhaust, and then the db output with the HMF pipe, and full system? Not mentioned on your website...which is surprising, as db level makes or breaks exhaust sales nowadays.

4/ I assume your tests were done on a "stock" TRX450R...meaning, it did not have the HRC power-up kit in it, correct? Any guesses as to what the HP/TQ #'s for a stock-HRC-equipped TRX would be, and then a stock-HRC-equipped TRX with your pipe and full system? Probably a pointless question to ask you if you only had 1 afternoon with the TRX.

Many thanks for your help clarifying some of this info.

BigAl
12-29-2003, 09:47 AM
what was it Rico used to say??

S. T. F. U. A. R. ????????

XANDADA
12-29-2003, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by HMFer
HMF would like to extend an open invitation to anyone would would like to come to our shop and run the dynos with us, we are not trying to scam anyone. All are testing is done with stock tires that can make up to a 6 h.p. difference down

Robb/HMF

I beleive you, but would love to check it out anyways:devil:

I'm only 15 minutes from you folks and would gladly write up my findings...:blah:

MIA450R
12-29-2003, 12:03 PM
Just sent HMFer a PM...hopefully he'll reply to my 4 questions soon...

Anyone else interested in the answers to these?

C41Xracer
12-29-2003, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by MIA450R
Just sent HMFer a PM...hopefully he'll reply to my 4 questions soon...

Anyone else interested in the answers to these?



I am too

86atc250r
12-29-2003, 03:10 PM
My question is ---

Why potentially skew the results by using stock tires which are subject to slipping on the drum?

Why not put on a nice, sticky set of SD-23 American Racers for both tests and eliminate any potential for results to be skewed by slippage induced by gained HP or other factors?

For comparable results you ****MUST**** control your experiment as much as possible. Controlling the experiment means eliminating ALL potential problems that may skew the end result, so that what you are seeing is only the effect of your changes - not the effects of your changes mixed with other uncontrolled factors (i.e. knobby tires slipping on the dyno drum)...

This is basic junior high level scientific method stuff...

chad502ex
12-29-2003, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by 86atc250r
My question is ---

Why potentially skew the results by using stock tires which are subject to slipping on the drum?

Why not put on a nice, sticky set of SD-23 American Racers for both tests and eliminate any potential for results to be skewed by slippage induced by gained HP or other factors?

For comparable results you ****MUST**** control your experiment as much as possible. Controlling the experiment means eliminating ALL potential problems that may skew the end result, so that what you are seeing is only the effect of your changes - not the effects of your changes mixed with other uncontrolled factors (i.e. knobby tires slipping on the dyno drum)...

This is basic junior high level scientific method stuff...

86', thank you! Finally, someone who is thinking clearly!! I tried to say this too!! Hopefully, they finally understand and agree with us.

:)
Chad502EX.com

C41Xracer
12-29-2003, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by 86atc250r
My question is ---

Why potentially skew the results by using stock tires which are subject to slipping on the drum?

Why not put on a nice, sticky set of SD-23 American Racers for both tests and eliminate any potential for results to be skewed by slippage induced by gained HP or other factors?

For comparable results you ****MUST**** control your experiment as much as possible. Controlling the experiment means eliminating ALL potential problems that may skew the end result, so that what you are seeing is only the effect of your changes - not the effects of your changes mixed with other uncontrolled factors (i.e. knobby tires slipping on the dyno drum)...

This is basic junior high level scientific method stuff...





i agree with this to.think of it this way would you use slicks for a mx track or the woods..........hmmmm..........I didn't think so. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.USE THE SLICKS!!!

joedirt
12-29-2003, 06:39 PM
Let HMF do it there own way there not stupid. They been building pipes for some time now. Not everyone does it like Sparks or Duncan. Yeah I agree that the 450 puts out 33 hp at the rear wheels. 502ex why do you have so many different parts from different manufaturers. I learned you should get everything done by one company or use what one builder suggest. All that HMF is saying is what they found out. give them a break.

chad502ex
12-29-2003, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by joedirt
Let HMF do it there own way there not stupid. They been building pipes for some time now. Not everyone does it like Sparks or Duncan. Yeah I agree that the 450 puts out 33 hp at the rear wheels. 502ex why do you have so many different parts from different manufaturers. I learned you should get everything done by one company or use what one builder suggest. All that HMF is saying is what they found out. give them a break.

because I can!

do u ever see a pro racer with stock machine? no

i rest my case,...

:)

chad502ex.com

Pappy
12-29-2003, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by chad502ex
because I can!

do u ever see a pro racer with stock machine? no

i rest my case,...

:)

chad502ex.com

jeff runs a stock cannondale:devil: case dismissed:eek:

chad502ex
12-29-2003, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Pappy
jeff runs a stock cannondale:devil: case dismissed:eek:

yea, but let him line up next to me with his stocker

:devil:

chad502ex

Pappy
12-29-2003, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by chad502ex
yea, but let him line up next to me with his stocker

:devil:

chad502ex

i can arrange that if you have the cash. i even have a gncc course to use. and dont give me none of that drag racing chit.....if you cant bring it in the tree's stay on your knee's:eek: :blah:

Pappy
12-29-2003, 07:00 PM
i bet he would even spot you a lap:devil:

chad502ex
12-29-2003, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by Pappy
i can arrange that if you have the cash. i even have a gncc course to use. and dont give me none of that drag racing chit.....if you cant bring it in the tree's stay on your knee's:eek: :blah:

i can't even tell you how many times I've roosted them on the trails- its not funny,..... I feel soooo sorry for those owners who have a quad that isn't even supported by the manu,... :) Don't those machines weigh like 500lbs? LOL!

just play'n

as far as $, I have none- its all going to the dream machine. And I do ride xc.

chad502ex.com

:macho

Pappy
12-29-2003, 07:02 PM
c'mon now you sound like a bro from northern parkway. put up or shut up. lmfao:blah: ;)

chad502ex
12-29-2003, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by Pappy
c'mon now you sound like a bro from northern parkway. put up or shut up. lmfao:blah: ;)

what state u in Pappy?

Chef
12-29-2003, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by chad502ex
i can't even tell you how many times I've roosted them on the trails- its not funny,..... I feel soooo sorry for those owners who have a quad that isn't even supported by the manu,... :) Don't those machines weigh like 500lbs? LOL!


Yea, you roosted them on the TRAILS. Thats not with a pro level rider, it more than likely wasnt a Blaze, either.

And actually, they weigh less than your EX does by quite a bit. ;)

Pappy
12-29-2003, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by chad502ex
what state u in Pappy?

i used to live not far from you...but i moved to west virginia. i still work in gaithersburg.

AlaskaSpeed
12-29-2003, 07:06 PM
Just let Chad keep talking his $hit....it's always best when ya let him talk til he tires out.......:eek2:

chad502ex
12-29-2003, 07:08 PM
Oh, I suppose you'd say that it's 99% rider that gets you to the front, huh; even if the machine is an non-factory supported 440?

Ahhhh, I being ganged on ops?

:eek2:
:D

chad502ex.com

muff
12-29-2003, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by chad502ex
i can't even tell you how many times I've roosted them on the trails- its not funny,..... I feel soooo sorry for those owners who have a quad that isn't even supported by the manu,... :) Don't those machines weigh like 500lbs? LOL!

just play'n

as far as $, I have none- its all going to the dream machine. And I do ride xc.

chad502ex.com

:macho

you dont know what your getting yourself into lol

the cannondales weight much less than your ex does, even without the fluids, and next time you see GNCC on tv, look for Jeff Stoess, he'll be there, and you'll realize no matter how many cc's your quad is bored and stroked to you'll still get whooped by a stock quad

Pappy
12-29-2003, 07:09 PM
i have $5000.00 that sez jeff airs you out on any gncc course you can drag yer butt too:macho now...if power gets you to the front or factory support then you shouldnt have any trouble with taking my money...eh?:cool:

chad502ex
12-29-2003, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by Pappy
i used to live not far from you...but i moved to west virginia. i still work in gaithersburg.

kewl! if you still work gaithersburg, it probally be real easy to hook up, huh?

chad

Chef
12-29-2003, 07:10 PM
Face it Chad, you cant win.:D

Pappy
12-29-2003, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by chad502ex
kewl! if you still work gaithersburg, it probally be real easy to hook up, huh?

chad

haha yeah...i go there a few times a week. pm me and we can chat. id love to see the 502

chad502ex
12-29-2003, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Pappy
haha yeah...i go there a few times a week. pm me and we can chat. id love to see the 502

i'm talkin on the trails,.... maybe we can hook up in Hatfield in the early spring trip; I'm sure your not far from there, right?


As far as the c'ing the 502, I hope I still have it by spring. I'm unloading the beast for my next 550r project.

:D

chad502

Pappy
12-29-2003, 07:15 PM
hatfield is in march..first ride anyway. i live about 4 1/2 hours from there.

wyndzer
12-29-2003, 07:16 PM
This is toooo funny. LOL I want some of this action, maybe Chad can make it up to H/M in March.

chad502ex
12-29-2003, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by Pappy
hatfield is in march..first ride anyway. i live about 4 1/2 hours from there.

u planning on trip'n there in the spring? 4.5hrs not bad, 7hrs for me- ouch. Our group still goes there bout 4-5 times a year if we lucky. Awesome trails.

chad502

Pappy
12-29-2003, 07:22 PM
yup we will al be there. keep an eye for our hatfield posts.


why here is jeff on his hmf piped dale at hatfield:p

r450rr
12-30-2003, 02:11 AM
pappy thats at rolling thunder racepark. am i right


www.rollingthunderracepark.com

u go there often.. i am there about everyweekend in the summer.. i live about hour and a half away in pikeville ky.

got family in wv ...

Pappy
12-30-2003, 06:14 AM
yep thats where it is alright. we go there all the time now at the hatfield rides:p

MIA450R
12-30-2003, 06:19 AM
So perhaps this is another question for HMFer...

When on the dirt, mud, hardpack or whatever, we have stock knobbies or other tires to provide MAXIMUM traction, to get as much of the HP and TQ to the ground. These same tires do NOT provide maximum traction on all surfaces, such as ice, snow, or in this case, slippery, round/flat metal drums. This being the case, these tires were a very poor choice for these dynos, and makes you wonder how many other poor choices they made for the tests......on the TRX and the YFZ...

However, if both the TRX and YFZ were tested with similar knobbies, then they will BOTH realize roughly the same drop in HP/TQ. Similarly, if both quads were using the same air-filter design, air-box mods, exhaust/header, roughly the same performing jetting, etc., then this results in a fairly controlled experiment in both cases, and can be utilized to compare the 2 machines. But, the poor choice in tires (and other variables??) simply does NOT result in an accurate reading on a dyno for these 2 machines by any means.

Once again (as with most of the other variables in their tests) the HMF website is unclear as to whether stock knobbies were used on both quads for all the tests. It does mention on the YFZ page that stock tires were used, but doesnt say so for the TRX. Another confusing thing with their dyno results between the 2 machines, is their scales are different on the 2 dyno results...which makes for difficult comparison between the 2.

We all have to keep in mind too, that HMF doesn't passionately care as much as we do in the difference in HP & TQ between these 2 machines. All they care is that their pipe makes more power for the TRX over and above the stock one. If they wanted to fancy us, they would answer all of our questions regarding the tests...to help us learn more about what only THEY have been able to do thusfar....post a dyno for the YFZ **AND** the TRX. However, they should have expected all of these questions, being a regular/known visitor to this site, and even pushing their product onto us at the same time.

Its their choice to help us out with this matter, or to ignore us and just sell us a pipe to make money.

Pappy
12-30-2003, 06:24 AM
i dunno i geuss it depends on what side of the camp you are on. if the pipe makes 5hp on a bone stock set up then thats what the average rider can expect. if it happens to make 12 more hp with the use of slicks then thats cool also but floating those kind of numbers into the market will leave them wide open for some pissed off mofo's when joe average bolts on his pipe and cant feel 12 hp...lmao

i dont in anyway feel hmf tried to skew the results. they had limited time to do the production and dyno run.


if it sez in thier add "we got 40 hp from a slip on" then let me know and ill cry foul with ya:p

MIA450R
12-30-2003, 06:33 AM
If their tests had been done with slicks on both a bone stock 450R, and on the 450R with the typical air-filter/box mods, jetting and their pipe ... and netted a 40HP gain, then they damn well should post that in their ads.

The nuts of the matter is, did they do all of their tests under the exact same (or as close as possible) controlled conditions?

I think HMF may have inadvertantly skewed the results by not specifying all the controllable variables in their tests...which makes us all wonder how controlled any of their tests were, resulting in #'s that cannot be compared between bikes.

Oh who cares. This is getting stoopid. HMF offered the "challenge", lets just see if they answer any questions.

Honda just release the damn thing and let us all do our own tests. I'm not buying any slip-on pipe anyways, unless it makes decent power, is less than 96db, and looks/sounds good.

XANDADA
12-30-2003, 06:40 AM
some of you guys are too dang much! They told ya what the test conditions were and the results. I would also be willing to video tape a dyno run for HMF and convert it to an mpg file for others on the site to download if they wanted...

XANDADA
12-30-2003, 06:43 AM
Originally posted by chad502ex
Oh, I suppose you'd say that it's 99% rider that gets you to the front, huh; even if the machine is an non-factory supported 440?

I thought Jeffro is a factory rider for Dinli now???

cdalejef
12-30-2003, 07:01 AM
Originally posted by XANDADA
I thought Jeffro is a factory rider for Dinli now??? Ummm.....ATK;)

12-30-2003, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by chad502ex
Oh, I suppose you'd say that it's 99% rider that gets you to the front, huh; even if the machine is an non-factory supported 440?




Uhhhhh Yeah. Anybody that thinks different must have a bad case of Head up arse...:huh


Or they've never rode with someone of pro riding skills and experience.:cool:

muff
12-30-2003, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by Rico
Uhhhhh Yeah. Anybody that thinks different must have a bad case of Head up arse...:huh

ditto :macho

Pappy
12-30-2003, 08:05 AM
head up arse....ummmm anyone have a picture of that:devil:

Hammer trx450r
12-30-2003, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by Pappy
i dont see them arguing...i see an open invitation to clarify any discrepency in thier testing results. either take them up on it or shut it. its very simple.

not a picture, but an example sorry buddy just kidden lol

HMFer
12-31-2003, 09:36 AM
I'm glad to see such a wide variety of responses. Part of our development process is these forums. I know alot of people think all we are trying to do is sell pipes...business is businesss, but we try to make the best product we can. If it was all about money we would have raise are prices along time ago. What forum members have to say is an extreemely important part of our development process. YOU GUYS HAVE A SAY in what happens with HMF, Thats why we are on this forum, at the races and on the phones. It's not posible to answer all the questions at the same time. I'll post some comparisons between the 2 bike on our website by friday in a special section. As far as the dyno testing with slicks...I THINK YOU GUYS ARE RIGHT!!!!!! You'll be seing that from us in the immediate future. We've been trying to do real worl testing on stock bikes, but it's obvious to me that the informed rider wants more. You have spoken and we have listened.

Thanks for all the valuable information!

Kevin/HMF

Johnny_G
12-31-2003, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by Hammer trx450r
If your pipe wins on sunday ill buy on monday

7 of the top 15 GNCC pro riders will be using HMF exhuast this year So they will be winning races.

BTW we can all get any pipe we want for free.....We choose HMF because the are the BEST period.

cdalejef
12-31-2003, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by Johnny_G


BTW we can all get any pipe we want for free.....We choose HMF because the are the BEST period. EXACTLY!

Johnny_G
12-31-2003, 10:16 AM
HMF is very interested in what this thread has brought up!!!!

How interested????

Kevin from HMF called me and damn dear woke me up this morning to see what i thought they should do about this issue of dynoing with knobbies VS slicks.

They are talking it over amongst themselves today and I bet you will soon see a change in HMF's Dyno procedures........Not because they were doing it wrong, just because the want to make certain that the customer is getting all the information the want before deciding which exhaust to buy.

This is a company that cares, and is willing and able to make changes to their products and processes if it will benefit their customers.

Doibugu2
12-31-2003, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by Jeff@QuadShop
EXACTLY!

Jeff did you get my PM to change the type of cam?

Chef
12-31-2003, 10:42 AM
If you guys need some big Hoosiers for the dyno, let me know. I think I have a few old ones left over.

chad502ex
12-31-2003, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by HMFer
I'm glad to see such a wide variety of responses. Part of our development process is these forums. I know alot of people think all we are trying to do is sell pipes...business is businesss, but we try to make the best product we can. If it was all about money we would have raise are prices along time ago. What forum members have to say is an extreemely important part of our development process. YOU GUYS HAVE A SAY in what happens with HMF, Thats why we are on this forum, at the races and on the phones. It's not posible to answer all the questions at the same time. I'll post some comparisons between the 2 bike on our website by friday in a special section. As far as the dyno testing with slicks...I THINK YOU GUYS ARE RIGHT!!!!!! You'll be seing that from us in the immediate future. We've been trying to do real worl testing on stock bikes, but it's obvious to me that the informed rider wants more. You have spoken and we have listened.

Thanks for all the valuable information!

Kevin/HMF

Hey Kevin (aka HMFer),

I'd have to say that I was truely impressed with your overall professionalism in the this entire thread. Your admission to my original doubt to the efffectiveness of testing with stock sneakers is without a doubt AWESOME. Every since I've been a member of EXRIDERS.com, I've witnessed some manufactures (not yours tho)and so-called engine builders bull**** the consumers because they thought the public was ignorant on the subject in debate, but your company has shown that it DOES care what the consumer thinks of it's image and the products you manufacture. Thanks again Kevin!

chad502ex.com

Hammer trx450r
12-31-2003, 02:15 PM
Wow, Now that thinking is what cutting edge is all about. Robb let Kevin do the talking. lol

MIA450R
12-31-2003, 03:34 PM
Kevin / HMF-
Well said, and thanks. As a potential future customer, I sincerely appreciate your response above and look forward to seeing the new info on your website. I'm sure alot of other members here feel the same way.

Along with clarifying the info on the website, and standardizing on your dyno procedures machine to machine (for comparison purposes), PLEASE, please, please, post info on the website regarding db output on your exhausts.

Thanks guys...
Have a great new years and take care.

Marc