Mickey D, Lazurus, HMF,Arens and other builders/aftermarket suppliers..question??

[ranger400ex]

Just wanted to see some of the industries front runners thoughts/plans on any involvement with the new Dinli "Cannondale" 440 quads. Are any of you planning on continuing, or starting any support for the new machines? Offering motor upgrades, a-arms,stems, nerfs, exhaust, sub-frames, axles, etc? anythought about possibly adding one to your teams??
(I did get the awesome privelage of a sneak peak at some of the units...no drastic changes, only those that needed attention ie updates,quality updates, and some slight plastic changes) They are a cannondale quality, with the rest of the engineering finished up)

Any thougts guys?

Mickey, Laz, Hans, Bid Winky, John A...someone lead off.

thanks,

Ben Wrightsman

[Dunlap]

Products come from a demand brought on by the consumer.

[Colby@C&DRacing]

Actually ATK is already building the quads again. They have hired a tech from south bay motors and did about $3000 worth of upgrades to the motor. The only patent that dinli actually owns in the fuel injection stuff and all ATK have to do is tweak a few things and there is no problem. C&D Racing became an ATK dealer a few weeks ago I was more interested in selling the quad that is being made in the USA than over sea's. It is really nice to see a company like ATK do all the upgrades to a product and still sell them for cheaper than cannondale did. They are coming out with a 450 kit that will be available from us and many other exciting things like a model with carb on it to get the price down even further. If you need more info or need parts for your cannodale call C&D Racing:). I have also spoken with numerous aftermarket parts manufactures and they told me that if the bike is produced again they would begin producing parts (pistons, cams, sleeves,axles,a-arms, etc) But it also looks like ATK is interested in making this bike perform to it's full potential from the factory with the 450 kits and other mods to help it stack up to all the new bikes out.

[kwatts400]

When will they be out?

[cdalejef]

Very very soon! ;)

[Juggalo]

i can't wait..


hey C&D guys- what do you think about that other ATK quad? ;)

[Colby@C&DRacing]

The ATK quads are availalbe for order right now:). AS far as the other ATK quads I am assuming you are talking about the rotax powered two stroke racer they made back in the early 90s? that design was recently sold to bombardier:eek: . But no fear ATK is working on a two stroke race bike along with alot of other cool ideas that are sure to turn some heads. I will keep you informed as details arrise:) I will say one thing this years dealer show in indy is going to be a big one:D

[Colby@C&DRacing]

Oh ya I forgot to add that ATK will be offering 4 models of the (cannondale) in 04

440 VR ( similar to the speed) $7,495 MSRP
440 OR (similar to the blaze) $9,495 MSRP
440 MXD (new desert model similar to the moto) $9,995 MSRP
440 MX (similar to the moto) $9,995 MSRP

[ranger400ex]

ATK has a nice thing going, but they only have some many parts and such to maintain a short build.



dinli will have min 2 new units at the dealer show, and possibly a couple more.


not gonna get in a pissing match here, but dinli does own everything important patent wise..ATK will only be an aftermarketer in the end just as roll design, laeger, etc are to honda, yamaha, suzuki etc....

again, dinli has some great stuff together, and why are we back on the buy american....ATK does not use all american, and neither is honda, suz, etc.....

stay tuned.


ben

Hey mickey, not that I am your best bud or such, but would you with an open mind, be willing to run a new model blaze/440 if the quad has all the bugs and such fixed? I just wonder, as I see alot of the guys (not you, just generalizing)talking about their reliability, cost, etc...but no true experience with one, just heresay...any more thoughts? seems most guys got the bad end of the stick with the first model years, and gave up, while talking the all the models since the first were much more on par, and excel above pretty much anything out there, even today.

all alumnum frame, spar oiling, <375lbs loaded,fuel injection, unlimited jetting/engine management capabilities, stainless lines, high dollar engine components, catridge style gearing, bullet proof tranny, 400ex/250r exact geometry, longer travel suspension, etc.....no one else has that in a stock package.

thanks man,

BMW

[Colby@C&DRacing]

I beleive your facts are alittle off base. ATK is not just building the quads with what parts they bought but are reproducing the parts to keep them all in stock. AS far as dinilli they only have the patent on the fuel injection system. The contract that ATK drew up when purchasing the parts gave them the right to reproduce the atvs and bike. Sure dinilli is pissed about it and is trying to get ATK to sign a new contract that gives them the exculsive right to build the product but that is not going to happen. I have very reliable sources that have been very honest with me from the beginning. I know you disagree with my information but we will see:eek:

[Dunlap]

I am always open to new projects but like I said before there has to be a call for it. I only got about 20 calls on them before.

[Derno24]

I am very confused. I was under the impression that there were no copyrights on these quads at all. This came from Cannondale engineers on other forums. So what was there to sell. I think what is going to happen. This is only my personal opinion is that both companies are going to manufacture the same machine with thier own host of upgrades. What does this mean to me? I can get parts cheaper because there will be 2 companies competing for my dollar. Or the worst scenario. They both change the bike too far from the original and I am left with a bike I can't get parts for. Oh well where is the cooler. I need another beer.

[cdalejef]

The patent is on the reverse cylinder engine wich is very vague and won't mean much to either company.

[Sandgod4]

Originally posted by Colby@C&DRacing
The ATK quads are availalbe for order right now:). AS far as the other ATK quads I am assuming you are talking about the rotax powered two stroke racer they made back in the early 90s? that design was recently sold to bombardier:eek: . But no fear ATK is working on a two stroke race bike along with alot of other cool ideas that are sure to turn some heads. I will keep you informed as details arrise:) I will say one thing this years dealer show in indy is going to be a big one:D

ATK is making a race bike different then the Cannondale design??? WOW! they're diving in deep..:eek2:

[LS@GtThunder]

Originally posted by ranger400ex
Just wanted to see some of the industries front runners thoughts/plans on any involvement with the new Dinli "Cannondale" 440 quads. Are any of you planning on continuing, or starting any support for the new machines? Offering motor upgrades, a-arms,stems, nerfs, exhaust, sub-frames, axles, etc? anythought about possibly adding one to your teams??
(I did get the awesome privelage of a sneak peak at some of the units...no drastic changes, only those that needed attention ie updates,quality updates, and some slight plastic changes) They are a cannondale quality, with the rest of the engineering finished up)

Any thougts guys?

Mickey, Laz, Hans, Bid Winky, John A...someone lead off.

thanks,

Ben Wrightsman

A little background - I have always prefered to address the part of the market where there is a need, customers who are willing to pay a reasonable price to fill that need, and where I have the ability to fill that need in an efficiant manner so that I can take care of the customer at a reasonable price. I have no desire to build a mouse trap unless I can offer either better service, a better price, a better feature, or all of the above.

I have recieved at least 10 times as many phone calls or emails from people who want to make sure that I save time to build them parts, a-arms, pipes, links, and several other things for the TRX 450R (that is not even out yet) in that past 2 weeks then I have recieved for any Cannondale Quads in the past 2 years.

When you are in buisness you need to decide where to spend your time and R&D money. Like Mickey Dunlap said "Products come from a demand brought on by the consumer". If I dont build parts and spend development time on the ATK/Dinli, it is purely a business decision.

On the other hand - Any business that actively develops parts and spends a lot of R&D time on a specialty bike will quickly creat a nitch market for himself where he can charge what he needs to and make a decent profit since there is little competition.

I hope they (ATK/Dinli or whoever) come out with a bike that is far better than anything out there as it will help light a fire under the competition to continue to improve their bikes.

LS

[Juggalo]

colby no i didn't mean that old school quad. i meant the NEW 2 stroke..you know..the one with the big engine? or am i caught in a "web" of lies? pm me and we can talk about it.

[ranger400ex]

Colby, here ya go.

Dinli does have the rights, ATK does not. I know and have worked with Frank W on a couple things and also a project for an individual at Dinli.....
ATK will be doing a mock of the dale, but not full reproduction....I have several photos of the new dinli which I cannot disclose yet, due to issues, but you have been misinformed.

yes the patent hardcopies are vague, but that is not where the "patent" is....

Frank looked to buy, but did not have the money to buy the rights along with patents...I need my lawyer bud to drop on here and spell it out, he and I reviewed this heavily, as a small group of us did put a bid in to buy what Dinli now has...all I can say is if you have not been in it from the beginning, been in on trying to buy, or are working on something for either company, you are only gettting a small part of the story.

PS HEy Laz thanks for the reply, and Mickey too.....I hope the demand comes back, I need to sell the harness idea too dinli soon.......

ben

[Derno24]

Ben...I have a question? Who is Justin Hall, he is supposed to be involved with Dinli and why is he stating at Cannondaler.com that the new Dinli will be a one piece frame and the oil will not run through it, but have a seperate oil tank? This would leave me to believe that it won't matter what ATK does because they have already changed the design. This is just my opinion.

Also where lawyers are involved there are always loopholes.

[thomez]

Originally posted by Colby@C&DRacing
Actually ATK is already building the quads again. They have hired a tech from south bay motors and did about $3000 worth of upgrades to the motor. The only patent that dinli actually owns in the fuel injection stuff and all ATK have to do is tweak a few things and there is no problem. C&D Racing became an ATK dealer a few weeks ago I was more interested in selling the quad that is being made in the USA than over sea's. It is really nice to see a company like ATK do all the upgrades to a product and still sell them for cheaper than cannondale did. They are coming out with a 450 kit that will be available from us and many other exciting things like a model with carb on it to get the price down even further. If you need more info or need parts for your cannodale call C&D Racing:). I have also spoken with numerous aftermarket parts manufactures and they told me that if the bike is produced again they would begin producing parts (pistons, cams, sleeves,axles,a-arms, etc) But it also looks like ATK is interested in making this bike perform to it's full potential from the factory with the 450 kits and other mods to help it stack up to all the new bikes out.


They are performing $2200 worth in upgrades if you get a 450 and the lowered ratio 5th gear. The way to know the value is to look at their website, I can send any Cannondale motor in to them and get that done for $2200. Those same upgrades were previously and currently available at SouthBayMoto or now through Wade Wilcox Engineering.

If you believe that ATK can reproduce Cannondale quads for thousands less than Cannondale was producing them, you are incredibly misinformed. Cannondale went out of business selling very high price quads and losing money on every one. ATK is able to sell these quads at these supposed "values" now because they bought back Cannondales from dealers across the country for near half of sticker price. There is not a chance in he!! that they can make these bikes from the ground up with the same components and sell them so greatly cheaper. If they are leading you to think that you should put a little reason into that thought. They have yet to produce (to my knowledge) a single Cannondale part - they are simply putting machines together with parts they acquired for pennies on the dollar through Pigassus. If I was to have bought the parts that cheap and the Cannondale's from dealers across the country for half sticker price I could do the same exact thing, until I ran out of bikes to start with and parts to use. If they believe they can manufacture the bikes whole and still sell them for thousands less... I believe they are highly mistaken. If that was possible Cannondale would have done it, and they would still have a motorsports division.


I beleive your facts are alittle off base. ATK is not just building the quads with what parts they bought but are reproducing the parts to keep them all in stock. AS far as dinilli they only have the patent on the fuel injection system. The contract that ATK drew up when purchasing the parts gave them the right to reproduce the atvs and bike. Sure dinilli is pissed about it and is trying to get ATK to sign a new contract that gives them the exculsive right to build the product but that is not going to happen. I have very reliable sources that have been very honest with me from the beginning. I know you disagree with my information but we will see

Again, it is easy to produce machines out of parts you acquired for cents on the dollar. When you have to buy all of those things from the manufacturers, it is a whole different story. ATK is attempting to build machines through a legal loophole and I would personally rather support Uzbekistan than someone who could not afford the intellectual property so they are attempting to bypass it. That is not good business practice and you can trust that if that is what is going on people will open their eyes to the facts.

Zack

PS: Ben, give me a shout. I'd like to be in contact with you and help you with anything I can. This topic, as you can tell, lights my fire.

[jesshamner]

I just hope that Dinli's parts are going to be interchangable with the cannondale parts. If ATK is using all the parts they bought to build new quads and aren't producing more, I don't think they are the savior that us cdale riders thought they were.

[Derno24]

Zack...You can't have things both ways. You are stating that it isn't right for someone to find a legale loophole to manufacture something. What are you doing with the exhaust that you are making? THE SAME THING... I don't want to argue I just found your comments a little biased for someone guilty of the same actions. Taking a product and making it better. I think all of us are talking out of our butts. Time will sort this out. If I can get a new motor from ATK or Dinli cheaper where do you think my money is going. I think alot has been stated about these products that no one else can verify. What the new Dinli is like. I know all the same fact about them buying bikes back at half the cost, but it doesn't change the fact that they will still eventually have to get parts. I also guarantee if what is being said on Cannondaler.com is true no true Cannondale Rider will like it.


This isn't meant to be an arguement so everyone should stop acting like it.

[thomez]

I'm doing more of a manufacture than a company ever did on the exhaust. There is no patents or intellectual property involved or was there ever such for sale. The exhaust in question was bought by the company as an exhaust for another application, cut, and made to fit. They didn't product anything but a weld. I am buying a can directly from a company who does have a patent on it and making it fit an application by manufacturing the rest of it from the can back. Last I checked you couldn't patent a steel geometrical shape. The situations are not the same - was their design the source of my idea, sure - but nothing patentable whatsoever - but I see your angle. It just isn't close to the same situation IMO.

Also, I wouldn't put too much weight on what a salesman is saying about manufacture... go to your local Honda dealer and ask manufacture questions to a salesman and come back laughing at the answers. We don't know what Dinli will make but I'd put more weight in what Ben says if he has contact etc than a salesman .. who probably doesn't understand what wet sump or dry sump is anyways.

I just don't think dealers should be led to believe that ATK will be in manufacture of Cannondale-like ATV's after the existing inventory of buy-backs is gone. It looks as if that is what some are being led to believe?

[Derno24]

There lies the problems with the Cannondale stuff. They had someone else design the motor the fuel injection system was parts out of other exsisting street bikes, suspension parts were similar to other quads (not same). So what would anyone be copying. Besides why wouldn't ATK produce the quads? I don't see a real legal issue with most of this stuff. I just see alot of gray. As far as the motor Cannondale was making updates to it as it was being produced so how could there be any intellectual rights to something that was never finished right?

I just think we should wait and see what happens instead of picking sides that is all.

I am not bashing on your exhaust just stating that you are taking someone elses idea and modifying it to make money that was all. Similar to what both companies are doing.

[ranger400ex]

Ooohhhh poor misinformed children..... :rolleyes:


The lack of intelligence followed by made-up knowledge is killing me....if ya ain't got your hand in the cookie jars months ago....get away from the counter and wait your turn.

thomez...get ahold of me anytime man. BTW nice post, and obviously you have paid attention to the whole deal.

cell
317-331-1197

call me anytime this weekend.

Ben

[Derno24]

Originally posted by ranger400ex
Ooohhhh poor misinformed children..... :rolleyes:


The lack of intelligence followed by made-up knowledge is killing me....if ya ain't got your hand in the cookie jars months ago....get away from the counter and wait your turn.

thomez...get ahold of me anytime man. BTW nice post, and obviously you have paid attention to the whole deal.

cell
317-331-1197

call me anytime this weekend.

Ben

Then explain it instead of continuing this childish tantrum of I know more than you do. I am interested as much as anyone as to the future of the machine that I currently own. There has been way to much I know but can't tell stuff and it is getting boring. I claim to know nothing just what I think. And as far as the fuel injection system all the parts are available elsewhere I have already found them. So instead of coming off like an *** talk to people with respect and you will get it back.

[ranger400ex]

yes they did use alot of common parts, if you have something broken..it isn't hard to get only a few parts were rare for a while (clutch, tranny, couple other odds and ends) otherwise alot of common parts and ideas....but well brought together.

Making a dale less than what the orginal parents did is IMPOSSIBLE here in the states if you plan on making any money...however dinli has some added benefits of cheap labor, and no whiney overpaid union workers (my family is union, so I am free to say so) and unappreciative american workforces to compete with, so dinli is already up a notch. they do have some great plans, along with keep parts interchangeable, and making the majority of us cannondale riders happy, while weeding out those not worthy.

it is changing day to day, and the pics I received were blurry and hacked up in areas(keeping things in the dark...as we know anticipation hightens awareness,and want)

ATK is doing a great thing by revamping a product, but they need to find their niche with aftermarket acc. before their market is swallowed by new units, and no way to move "older" models.

The motor, wiring, frame, sub-frame, and core components are are cannondale designs, alot from the master himself with the help of others (Paul Hammerstrom)

FI system is same computer as triumph....but a whole new ballpark when it comes to software, they are not a direct swap without alot of help from Scooter or someone.

to the best of my knowledge, from a person at dinli who does not give me his or her name, email address that is from dinli but does not accept incoming mail, and phone number to a VM that has not returned my calls regarding old messages, only to give info or ask a question here or there...the FI sytstem is staying and upgraded, aluminum fram to stay put, oiling system is on par to stay same,but possible weght savings if it can change, plastic if similar with some of the 04 proto designs taken...

I asked several times who has called me of Rusty and Justin, but no one has let me know, I hope to post again with them, and maybe get a response...the intial response was no one there, but someone is really good with cameras, staging, sending and receiving info under dinli's name if they are pulling myself and couple others around...I am supposed to find out who at the dealer show coming up in indy.

I will let you guys know everything I can, and with the best of my learned knowledge....I ain't done yet....and haven't found anything better yet...shame alot of guys haven't gotten the chance to ride a real race macnine yet.

ben

[Jnine]

We'll see where it goes.

I made all the production stems for all the Cannondale quads, and we did a lot with the front end as well. I'm not sure if ATK is builing quads from parts inventory, but I have plenty of stems left, and I know some of the other suppliers have parts left as well. The big issue is this: When ATK or whoever does run out of parts, they will need to go back to the original source, or build them on their own. The problem with that is, building their own takes plans and tooling. (Time & money) The original suppliers already have the parts done. HOWEVER, they (like me) are still going to remember getting burned the first time, and they are not going to sell the parts at the same fire sale prices that ATK bought the first time. They need to make up their losses.

[thomez]

I think everyone fully understands that, and that is another problem with the thought that ATK is going to begin actual manufacture of this quad. I don't believe that is going to happen and I'm not sure that ATK even plans on that. I'm guessing that they will continue upgrading/refurbishing these buy-backs until they run out of them, then if they have plans to build a quad, it will go in another direction. There are too many problems with attempting to build the Cannondale quad again - one of the biggest being just the parts availability and price as you mention. I'm sure many of the manufacturers got burnt and burnt good - just as the dealer network did.

In some good news, at least you built steering stems which people bend and break and need to replace. They will probably go very slowly but in time I would imagine you can get rid of most of them. I'd hate to have been a company like Ohlins that got their shock market flooded by pallets full bought at auction, etc.... :rolleyes:

[Jnine]

I know what you mean. I have a bunch of completed stems on the shelf, and the parts to build about 250 more. I hope we can get rid of them. In the mean time, I have converted the tooling over to make stems for other brands.

[bknight]

Jnine

have you tryed to sell to atk or Dinli.

[haydug]

Originally posted by Jnine
I know what you mean. I have a bunch of completed stems on the shelf, and the parts to build about 250 more. I hope we can get rid of them. In the mean time, I have converted the tooling over to make stems for other brands.



How many on the shelf? And how much for them all??

I would like to thank all that have replied to this thread. I'm sure we can go on and on for days about this topic.
What came first, chicken or the egg???
For now, all current Cannondale owners need to stick together to make our bikes perform better and last longer.
I am now set up with Dinli and ATK as a dealer. How is that going to work???
Well, I applaud anyone at this point that are sticking behind these machines. I think we will all have to wait another year to see where this all leads.
I do like the fact that now all of a sudden the "Yamaha" and "Honda" are the only true race ready quads available, but last time I checked on ebay you can buy stock Yamaha part (shocks: $200) cheap because everyone is changing parts. How many blaze/moto front ends did you see people giving away??

[Jaybr]

Originally posted by ranger400ex

FI system is same computer as triumph....but a whole new ballpark when it comes to software, they are not a direct swap without alot of help from Scooter or someone.



This is a major part of the system that I think people overlook. I'm pretty sure Optimum Power owns the code for the FI, and I don't think rewriting it would be an insignificant task. So, have both Dinli and ATK struck a deal with Optimum? You can't manufacture a FI quad without software to run the FI.

[brif]

I have followed this alittle on the cannondale web sites and all I can say is this has gotta be one of the most screwed up messes there ever was. One company got parts the other intellectual property neither had enough cash for both and each wants to make a quad. I hope one or both can make a go of it.

[Derno24]

I don't think it has anything to do with enough money to buy both. I think each didn't see the value of buying both.

[bknight]

aney new info on

[Guy400]

I want to chime in because I'm as confused as the next guy about this. The deal, as I understood it, was that ATK bought a host of complete Cannondale quads and tons (literally) of parts. I was under the impression that they were going to sell parts and whole units but when their stock of quads was gone, it was gone. They didn't buy any of the intellectual property to actually produce complete quads from the ground up.

Dinli bought some of the tooling and the intellectual property to make these quads, hence the complete production of "new" Cannondales coming off a Korean assembly line.

[MOFO]

Originally posted by Guy400
hence the complete production of "new" Cannondales coming off a Korean assembly line.




:mad:

[Derno24]

Guy400: This is where the dilema is. What you are saying is true, but the problem is that there apparently wasn't enough intellectual property to buy. We have been discussing this over at Cannondaler.com. Alot of people have their own ideas and what they have seen and heard, but the only ones that know for sure are Dinli and ATK. I say let's sit and wait and see what happens. I think that is the safest thing to do. Just rest assured there will be at least one Cannondale version out there possibly 2.

[HMFer]

Yep, you can count on us making pipes for the new cannondales! We had a 10Hp increase with our last cannon full system and we were really pleased with the response. In 02' it was our second best selling pipe behind the Grizzly. We are only to happy to produce new products...infact we are almost done with the new Honda 450R full system and slip on. It will be ready for shipping next friday! I don't know all the specs yet, it's still on the dyno. But I know we got 10ftlbs of torque out of the slip on and a 4 hp increase wwith a 122 main jet. Check the web site later tonight for more updates. Special thanks to Mark Baldwin and Tim Farr for the use of thier bike...those guys ROCK.

Kevin
HMF

[bknight]

HMFer

i have one of your pips on mine nice pip :D
keep up the good work.
i think its a good pipe for the dales :D