Best Engine Builder?

[NacsMXer]

Hey everyone, I have a 00' 440EX that I seized in August due to overheating at the MX track so I'm gonna buy a desert toyz cooler, and a pingry oil tank. Instead of tear it all down again myself, Im just gonna go all out this time and send the entire engine to a reputable engine builder. I need to have a engine builder that has the best prices, best porting-(good cams), makes the best power, and has good reliability. My list that I will send to the builder includes: Install new Wiseco high comp piston and new sleeve, port and flow heads with a 3 angle valve job, hardface rockers, heavy duty valve springs/shortened valve guides, race cam, CRF 450 timing chain, and a new pipe. Basically, im going from a mild 440 to a wild 440. I'm favoring CT Racing because they provided me with my first kit and Webcam. I like the fact that they use Wiseco pistons, LA Sleeves, and Webcams, I also like their exhaust as I have the midrange right now. What do you guys think? Thanks a lot! :confused:

[airheadedduner]

Did you seize it bad enought that it needs sleeved? I would look into having a boreing and having a piston put in that will bump it up to 450. It would be cheaper.

[NacsMXer]

Since I race it, the 450 is not an option, 440 is the limit. Could just need new rings and a hone job.......who knows I havent torn the engine down yet. Im in college right now so I dont have the time like I did the first time I built the motor. Id like to send it to a good engine builder though. Thanks.

you CAN race legaly with a 450cc..the AMA rules have changed....and Sparks Racings was voted Americas #1 engine builder...so i highly suggest them.

http://www.sparksracing.com/Sparks_Frame_1.htm

[NacsMXer]

I was not aware that the AMA rules had changed to allow the non-destroked or resleeved 450s to run. Im still goin with the 440 though....I'm not too educated on 450EX pistons. I havent really seen many EX's with 450 kits. Plus i like whomping on 250Rs with the 440 how it is.

i agree...but send it to sparks..you will be one happy camper

[NacsMXer]

Don't get me wrong, Sparks is a great engine builder and a great guy to talk to if you need help. Of course I would send my engine to him if I had lots of $$$ but im a college student and I need to send it to someone who does good work, and has good pricing.

[Dave400ex]

You can also check out TC Racing, Duncan, FDO, Baldwin, etc. I personally like TC, but FDO seems to build some great 400 motors. I also like Baldwin. Baldwin might not be as backed up as the others either. You will be waiting a while if you send it to Sparks, Duncan, TC, any of the top companies. You could look at LRD also.

[NacsMXer]

Looks like ill be calling around for pricing and stuff then...almost forgot about LRD, they make some strong engines. Thanks for all the replies. Anybody else have any experience with any builders good/bad? Thanks.

[bradley300]

gt thunder did my 300ex motor, they have great pricing, quick turn around and definatly know thier stuff! i recomend them! they are in our links section

Originally posted by bradley300
gt thunder did my 300ex motor, they have great pricing, quick turn around and definatly know thier stuff! i recomend them! they are in our links section



http://ricoracing.netfirms.com/Smilies/i'm%20with%20stupid.gif


If things go as planned my heads goin there next week for some work....:eek2:

Originally posted by Rico
http://ricoracing.netfirms.com/Smilies/i'm%20with%20stupid.gif


If things go as planned my heads goin there next week for some work....:eek2: i wouldnt mind doin a lil bit of work on your head either;)

[bradley300]

ok, that just dosent sound right

[roostin_dale]

where you on the white 400ex that blew at Casey??? What B-town are you from?

[NacsMXer]

Nah sorry, blew mine at the track in Byron, IL. Im from 2hours west of there.....Barrington, IL. Made a quick loud fluttering sound........I could just hear the piston slowing down against the sleeve. I just priced out the CT kit and the Sparks kit. CT wants $2400 for the entire Hi Ouput package and Sparks wants $2525....so its kinda close. The Sparks includes the heavy duty connecting rod and I like that. What do you guys think??

[bandit390]

Sparks is crap.

I sent my cylinder into them because they told me I would get in back in two weeks. I was getting the stud update. Well two months later they were still filling me with the same crap they told me last month. So when I got it back, I saw that all they did was put ONE larger stud in the front and charged me 15$ for the stud and 45$ for labor. Which took maybe maybe 5 minutes to do. The first time I put the cylinder back on my motor the back stud stripped the threads and the other 2 studs were able to tighten 1/4 inch in. Which means they did'nt check the other studs as they said they would. I took it to a local guy and he fixed the other 3 studs, sparks didnt fix, for 20$


Go sparks :rolleyes:

[bradley300]

Originally posted by NacsMXer
Nah sorry, blew mine at the track in Byron, IL. Im from 2hours west of there.....Barrington, IL. Made a quick loud fluttering sound........I could just hear the piston slowing down against the sleeve. I just priced out the CT kit and the Sparks kit. CT wants $2400 for the entire Hi Ouput package and Sparks wants $2525....so its kinda close. The Sparks includes the heavy duty connecting rod and I like that. What do you guys think??

i dont think you can count out gthunder until you talk to them, i bet you will like what he has to say.

[NacsMXer]

Thanks for the honest input Bandit. Good thing I dont need studs replaced. LOL. Ive dealt with Sparks before with my FCR and they were great. You just never know though. Me being at college is an advantage for me because I can ship the engine while I am at school, then install it when its done when im back for spring break and summer. It used to be torture for me back in the high school days waiting for parts and stuff...haha. Keep em comin....thanx.

[NacsMXer]

Ill try to consult with GT Thunder see what they have to say. Ive never heard of them before until this site...havent seen any ads either. There are smaller companies out there that do great work though.

Originally posted by bandit390
Sparks is crap.

I sent my cylinder into them because they told me I would get in back in two weeks. I was getting the stud update. Well two months later they were still filling me with the same crap they told me last month. So when I got it back, I saw that all they did was put ONE larger stud in the front and charged me 15$ for the stud and 45$ for labor. Which took maybe maybe 5 minutes to do. The first time I put the cylinder back on my motor the back stud stripped the threads and the other 2 studs were able to tighten 1/4 inch in. Which means they did'nt check the other studs as they said they would. I took it to a local guy and he fixed the other 3 studs, sparks didnt fix, for 20$


Go sparks :rolleyes: you try being the #1 engine builder in america and see if you can deal with simple stuff easily when you have people sending their motors everday with 2k in the box...

[bandit390]

Originally posted by nacsracer27
you try being the #1 engine builder in america and see if you can deal with simple stuff easily when you have people sending their motors everday with 2k in the box...

They did ****ty work, its simple as that. Plus I would not be complaining it they were not liers to begin with.

I'll end it with that. Cause im sure all the other bias sparks people will give more excuses on why they are crap.

[Dave400ex]

No matter how busy they are, the job should still be done right.

I would call and check with FDO and TC also if you look in to GT Thunder. I also believe Fischer's Cycle and Rocky Ridge build some good 400 motors.

Originally posted by Dave400ex
No matter how busy they are, the job should still be done right. i agree with you on this, i just cant imagine the best engine builder in america doing that ****ty of a job without a reasonable explanation, if i ever do my yfz engine its goin straight to sparks

[NacsMXer]

I just spoke with CT a few minutes ago and its lookin good! They want $2000 including tax for me to send my whole motor in and have a Hi-Output package installed. This includes the hi output pipe, Wiseco 11:1 piston, big bore LA Sleeve, gaskets, race cam, full porting w/3angle valve job, hardfacing the rockers, big valve kit w/ heavy duty valve springs, shortened valve guides and titanium retainers, don't need the FCR carb cuz I already got it which saved me 490 big ones, and theyre throwing in a free heavy duty cam chain install while theyre at it. I think I'm going with this kit because Sparks wants 525 more, and Id rather use Wiseco pistons over JE (personal preference). I have yet to get ahold of TC Racing and a few other places to compare but, it looks like i'm buyin one helluva christmas present for myself this year....there goes my bank account :D

Originally posted by NacsMXer
and Id rather use Wiseco pistons over JE (personal preference) btw your personal preference sucks

yes this is my old wiseco

http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/nacsracer27/broke%20piston.jpg

http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/nacsracer27/chunks%20of%20pitson.jpg

http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/nacsracer27/gouged%20cylinder.jpg

[NacsMXer]

Wow, thats pretty bad man!!!:eek2: I might have to rethink my piston options then..... CT gives the option of a 11:1 Wiseco or a 12:1 Ross piston, I dont know if they offer JEs as an option. Myself and my fellow riders only have experience with stock and Wiseco pistons, so im not knocking on other brands here. Reason I preferred the Wiseco before was because my friend first had a Wiseco on his 250R and then bored it to a 265 with a Nik's. The Nik's literally blew up into a million pieces cracking both cases and trashing the bottom end; he went back to the Wiseco and didnt have any problems. I know JE is a pretty reputable and popular brand, but I dont know about the Ross 12:1. Is it any good? Thanks for the pics tho, made me think twice about the Wiseco.

np, i highly recomend you going JE...if you ahve to, buy a JE piston from sparks and send it to TC or whoever is doing your engine along with your engine...tell them to use that...Wiseco is a light piston, the lightest of the bunch, but there skirts are too weak, and the compression rating arent true...they say its 11:1 but i bet its only aroun 10:1...the 11:1 JE piston has a much bigger dome then the Wiseco 11:1

[NacsMXer]

Thanks for the info nacsracer. I think i might just do that. I now realize what youre talking about...I remember how extremely light my Wiseco was when I installed it the first time....maybe the piston is what caused my seizure. Ill call up CT and see if they can install a JE for me instead. I only run 110 leaded race fuel in my quad so think I should go with the 12:1 over the 11:1? Id rather have the higher compression but not if its at the compromise of reliability. Also, if my stock rod is in good condition, do I have to worry about upgrading to a new rod? Thanks.

Originally posted by NacsMXer
Thanks for the info nacsracer. I think i might just do that. I now realize what youre talking about...I remember how extremely light my Wiseco was when I installed it the first time....maybe the piston is what caused my seizure. Ill call up CT and see if they can install a JE for me instead. I only run 110 leaded race fuel in my quad so think I should go with the 12:1 over the 11:1? Id rather have the higher compression but not if its at the compromise of reliability. Also, if my stock rod is in good condition, do I have to worry about upgrading to a new rod? Thanks. no problem, id say you would be fine with an 11:1 piston from JE, any higher the bike will start to be extremely eay to stall, you cant lug it a gear high through corners to let the tourque pull you out, and you will have no bottem end at all...id say throw the 11:1 in and leave the rod as it is

[Dave400ex]

I have to agree with nacs. Go with a JE piston. I'm sure CT could get one for you. If you do go 12:1 compression, I would be getting a different rod, and then you would need the oversized head bolts too. Plus it would run hotter.

[NacsMXer]

Thanks for the info guys.....really educated me on the 12:1. I was running a 10:1 Wiseco, so I really dont have the experience with high compression. Ill give CT a call tommorrow and see if they cant throw in a 11:1 JE into my motor. Much appreciation due to you guys....proper education is everything with motor mods. Its all coming together now! :macho

no problem, i hate to see people make the same mistake i did..although i stil currently running a wiseco:( ...only thing my local buiolder had in stock, and i wanted it back together

[trx440]

CT built my first 440 back in Dec. 98. I got the Ross 12:1 with the race cam and the whole ball of wax. It ripped. I am from Plainfield originally and besides a few 250r's at Byron and Joliet, it was the fastest bike in District 17 in '99.

BTW, that engine is still on the same piston! If a Ross piston is available, that is all I will buy.

CT's 11:1 piston is their recreational package and is quit tame. So don't get it, you won't be happy.

Laz at GT Thunder makes some HI-comp bikes that SCREAM. His 416 bike was faster than mine in sand drags at Silver Lake. I did however out weigh that rider by a good 50lbs. Often times big end speed does not equate to podium appearances.

I have never heard anything bad about FDO and have ridden a 416 or 426 of theirs at Buttercup. Very fast bike.

Sparks is great but they are expensive and take a LONG time.

I will have Allen build my next EX project because I now live on the west coast and the last one he built lasted FOREVER. If I still lived in Chicagoland I would strongly consider GT Thunder or FDO cuz they are both in Ohio and have better turn around times. Remember, when you guys are freezin' your nads off and rebuilding for next year, EVERYONE out west is duning, racing or out playing in the desert. The builders out west have NO down time.

[NacsMXer]

I spoke with CT today and they said that could put an 11:1 JE in there for me if I desired. Im confused now because, I know you said your 12:1 Ross was great and all, but I dont want to have a bike that will stall out, or be getting into a heavy duty rod if I dont have to like nacsracer said. Ill call up CT yet again, and see what they recommend because I only race MX and never drag. They should know what would be best for my setup with reliability. I agree, power always aint everything but thats where Im at an advantage: Im 19 years old 5'7 and 130 lbs. I got the skills and the speed so I can pretty much whomp on anyone I please....at least not with a seized 440!! :blah:

[Fibe Industries]

Let it be nown that ct and sparks send there engines out sometimes from what ive herd and they are done sloppy somtimes. AND I HAVE HERD THIS FROM A RELIABLE SOURCE!!

personal do not forget about Laz at GT Thunder,,, he is selling you the best performance not trying to take every penny you have give them a call and put your money there for a very good engine.,, he will tell you the best possible thing to do for the money and the parts to use..

ask anybody that has delt with him and see if they have had a problem that wasnt there fault. then ask people what kind of problems they have with the (REAL BIG ADVERTISER ENGINE BUILDERS) and you will see the differents. its amazing what some advertising can do to your head


www.gtthunder.com:)

[trx440]

Just so you know, the bike still has the stock rod and the head gasket that Allen sent me way back when. I did not get the stud update either. Never ONE problem.

You may have skills and a size advantage over alot of guys but the new race prepped quads are just faster than the mildly modded EX's and you will need all the help you can get.

I know you are looking for performance, you already have the 39FCR and use 110 fuel. Why would you short change yourself in the piston department? The 12:1 Ross runs just as good on half and half 110 race & 93 pump as it does on straight race. You are most likely tossing your money away on running straight 110 as your bike doesn't need it.

[trx440]

Adam,

That is a very serious allegation. I think if Curtis or Allen accused you of that here on this forum you would have the right to question the validity of their claims. To protect yourself from a libel lawsuit you should tell us who gave you that information.

[mopar 400]

NACS:
Back to the Ross piston situation, I have a fully built 440 wit ha 12:1 Ross piston and LA sleeve. I personally called Ross and talked to them before I ordered the piston direct from them and got a ton of good info. I have been running this setup for a solid year now and love the power. I had a 416 with a JE piston, and had no problems with the piston, but for the latest build I wanted the best. Ross used to actually work for JE, so he does know a great deal about their pistons. I can assure you guys that the Ross is a higher quality then the JE and Wiseco that most people run. They also run a truer compression ratio than the others, so 12:1 is 12:1!

Good luck with whatever you decide, but I would definitly give Ross a call!

[trx440]

Mopar,

What fuel do you run? What is the lowest level of octane your bike requires?

What cam did you use?

[NacsMXer]

I agree with you guys.....you can't always leave out the small builders who do good work too. I will definitely give GT Thunder a call and see how their pricing and work compares to the CT package. As for the Ross 12:1 piston, I know its a great quality piston, but Ive heard a lot about people breaking the stock rod on it. Theyve been like...."one compression point isnt gonna make the biggest difference when you gotta broken rod on your new motor". How true is a statement like this? Sure Ill go 12:1 if it aint gonna compromise my reliability. Ill call up GT Thunder and CT and see what they think about 12:1. Thanks a lot for the input.

[F-16Guy]

I've had no problems with my ProFab motor. The quality of work is great, turn-around was quick, and price was very reasonable. I think I would go with a FST cooler if I was you. I had Scott at ProFab drill, tap, and install the fittings while he had the motor apart. You need that cool oil hitting the valve train before anything else, and the FST-type cooler is the only way to do it. Mine made a big difference. I noticed that there's much less heat radiating from my engine after a hard ride, especially at the dunes.

[NacsMXer]

I spoke with Laz at GT Thunder and he answered a slew of my questions and was very prompt to answer them. Looks like I will be going with a package from GT Thunder with the 12:1 or 11:1 then. Laz said either piston would be fine on a stock rod. His price for the entire package was $1683 and their out of Ohio so its relatively close to me. He said since I overheated, my cylinder is weaker and the studs would eventually pull out so I need a brand new stock cylinder. Does anybody know where I can get the cheapest stock cylinder? Ronnies wants $340 for a new cylinder and I cant imagine what honda wants for one. Can anybody else do better?

[Dave400ex]

Check out Service Honda.

What does the GT Thunder motor include for $1683?

[NacsMXer]

Ill try out Service Honda's price. That $1683 includes: Complete engine labor, JE piston, complete gasket kit, seals as needed, full race porting, 3 angle valve job, oversize intake valves, hardfacing the rockers, HD valve springs, shortened valve guides, cam, and titanium valve retainers. I chose to get my exhaust from CT because I already have the midrange pipe and love it, just need to upgrade to the Hi output. I also need the sparky on it.

[Dave400ex]

That is a great price for all of that stuff. I bet that thing will haul. I would like to do that, but I don't have the money, and my clutch is starting to go so it needs replaced.

[bradley300]

told ya! thats what i liked most was he answered all of my dumb questions quickly and fully. and the prices are great

[NacsMXer]

True, true Bradeley, you were right all along. :rolleyes: lol. Laz was very informative and helpful. But it sucks now that I have to buy a whole brand new cylinder! :eek: The end product will definitely be nice though cuz with a new cylinder, clutch basket, and pretty much a brand new top end in general, i'll have a brand new peace of mind about my thumper!! Doesnt hurt that theyre right there in Ohio either.

[trx440]

Call "XR's Only" and ask if they have a "Big Fin" cylinder in stock. Check it out on line. That will definitely help keep that puppy cooled down.

You made a good choice with Laz. I have never purchased anything from him but he has answered a few questions for me in the past and I have sent some midwest business his way. He will be building my friends 350x project bike later this winter.

[NacsMXer]

Service Honda quoted me a price of $229 for a brand new cylinder. Whew! thats a relief...better than paying $340+ from Ronnie's or the Honda dealer. Ill have to check out that big fin cylinder...I remember hearing about that a while ago, but I just forgot about it. Should it bolt right up and is it as good a quality as the stock cylinder?

[NacsMXer]

Oh i see, the big fins are just heliarced to the existing fins. Thats pretty trick, but also expensive at $225. Good add on for later maybe, but I think my temp problems should be solved with the bigger cooler and tank. Thanks for the suggestion though.

[pnut420]

Check out powroll.com. If you are getting a new cylinder, you might want to look into stroking the motor. You could do a 416 or 426 and stroke it to a 440 or 450. It will be less heat than a big bore, should be fine with airscoops, and a oversized cooler. They use a heavy duty rod on this kit and it looks beefy http://powroll.safeshopper.com/77/182.htm?131. The good thing is the rod is shorter so you can use ANY piston you choose.
Or you can go with this kit and do a stroker crank, with a shorter custom made piston that uses the stock rod, or Carillo, etc... http://powroll.safeshopper.com/77/156.htm?131

They have decent prices on some stuff, but they are asking $600 for a FCR:huh . FDO and others do strokers as well, just a thought...

[pnut420]

Originally posted by trx440
Adam,

That is a very serious allegation. I think if Curtis or Allen accused you of that here on this forum you would have the right to question the validity of their claims. To protect yourself from a libel lawsuit you should tell us who gave you that information.

People do it everyday, my dad owns a company and if one of his tiles break, people badmouth him, but my dad is more responsible to to go back at them with a libel lawsuit. He was stating his opinion more than a fact.

Are you the hotcams rep, BTW?

[bandit390]

Originally posted by Fibe Industries
Let it be nown that ct and sparks send there engines out sometimes from what ive herd and they are done sloppy somtimes. AND I HAVE HERD THIS FROM A RELIABLE SOURCE!!

personal do not forget about Laz at GT Thunder,,, he is selling you the best performance not trying to take every penny you have give them a call and put your money there for a very good engine.,, he will tell you the best possible thing to do for the money and the parts to use..

ask anybody that has delt with him and see if they have had a problem that wasnt there fault. then ask people what kind of problems they have with the (REAL BIG ADVERTISER ENGINE BUILDERS) and you will see the differents. its amazing what some advertising can do to your head


www.gtthunder.com:)

Sounds about right. Ill take some pics of the top of my cylinder tomorrow and show yall a sloppy job(done by sparks) then turn it on the other side and show yall a good job( done by the local)

[trx440]

Saying they did a crappy job is one thing, you have the proof or at least an example of the shoddy work. Saying they farm the work out to a sub-contractor is something entirely different. People send their work to Curtis or Allen so that THEY work on it.

For the record, I'm not saying that this doesn't happen but be prepared to back it up - BIG TIME - when you make those accusations.

Once again, I would also like to say, if you live back east you don't have to send your engines to the west coast anymore. The westcoast companies are ALL GREAT engine builders but the new school is just as good in many respects and most times much quicker.

Laz/GT Thunder might be the best of them all and is DEFINITELY a better option than waiting 2-10 months for an engine from the big boys.

Lastly, I am not in the ATV biz, yet.

[pnut420]

Originally posted by trx440
Saying they did a crappy job is one thing, you have the proof or at least an example of the shoddy work. Saying they farm the work out to a sub-contractor is something entirely different. People send their work to Curtis or Allen so that THEY work on it.

For the record, I'm not saying that this doesn't happen but be prepared to back it up - BIG TIME - when you make those accusations.

Once again, I would also like to say, if you live back east you don't have to send your engines to the west coast anymore. The westcoast companies are ALL GREAT engine builders but the new school is just as good in many respects and most times much quicker.

Laz/GT Thunder might be the best of them all and is DEFINITELY a better option than waiting 2-10 months for an engine from the big boys.

Lastly, I am not in the ATV biz, yet.

Thats cool, but he just never said I know for a fact that Sparks sends there stuff out, he said he was told that. It does happen alot though, the busier you get the more you just have to get things done to get people off your back. Ive also had engines built by small time builders and when I blew the motor even though it was my fault he fixed it for the cost of his parts+ very little labor, like $50, this was a engine for a 69 chevy truck also...
Certain engine builders can actually custom make a cam to whatever grind you want and save you some serious $. And if they put in heavier duty studs and were to check the others and they stripped then they should be liable... I dont see how a huge builder like Sparks would even deal you.(Im not saying for a fact, I just don't feel they would)

[lol]

Originally posted by nacsracer27
i wouldnt mind doin a lil bit of work on your head either;)

whoa, i agree bradley, the second i read that i was like, whoa

[bmw500hp]

Originally posted by NacsMXer
Hey everyone, I have a 00' 440EX that I seized in August due to overheating at the MX track so I'm gonna buy a desert toyz cooler, and a pingry oil tank. Instead of tear it all down again myself, Im just gonna go all out this time and send the entire engine to a reputable engine builder. I need to have a engine builder that has the best prices, best porting-(good cams), makes the best power, and has good reliability. My list that I will send to the builder includes: Install new Wiseco high comp piston and new sleeve, port and flow heads with a 3 angle valve job, hardface rockers, heavy duty valve springs/shortened valve guides, race cam, CRF 450 timing chain, and a new pipe. Basically, im going from a mild 440 to a wild 440. I'm favoring CT Racing because they provided me with my first kit and Webcam. I like the fact that they use Wiseco pistons, LA Sleeves, and Webcams, I also like their exhaust as I have the midrange right now. What do you guys think? Thanks a lot! :confused:

Hey Nacs...

Check out this thread:
http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=80828

Colby's posts reflect solid choices and good philosophy on the bigger bores. I am certainly not saying CT is not a good choice, there builds kick and thats a fact, but I get the feeling that C&D has a real good handle on the "bang for the buck" and the experience to handle it.

[Martin Blair]

TC racing, long turn arround times but bar none the best work