GNCC pro class going to current production based machines in 2004? [Archive]

cdalejef

10-21-2003, 07:54 AM

Posted by ZRacer:

I talked with Rita of Racer Production Saturday Night about the Pro Changes for next year. Things were not 100% final when I talked to her, but it looks like there will be only 1 Pro Class next year, and it will be production based. I know that this will eliminate the use of aftermarket frames by the Pros, but I am not sure if it will eliminate the 250R on a stock frame?

I did get the impression that they are only doing this to get the factories more involved with promoting and supporting atv racing. I guess we will all have to wait and see what becomes the final rules for next year.

After talking with Rita in person, I truly think that they have good intentions for the racers on their rule change. They were aware that it would make it difficult for a few of the racers and were concerned about their situation. I personally wish the racers would have more notice, but the ATV industry is changing rapidly with several new race quads being released this year with little or no prior notice, and they are only trying to react quickly to the changing times for atv racing community.

Let keep our fingers crossed for the Future!

cdalejef

10-21-2003, 07:55 AM

Posted by XANDADA:

If ya can't beat it ,,,,kill it

quadman21

10-21-2003, 07:55 AM

Jlhughs750, If all my sources are correct, Santo will be going for the YFZ. Maybe if he reads this he can confirm that. BUT, In my opinion, I am on your side about the quick descision on the Pro Class next year. I would have liked to have seen them take another year to let everyone make the change. For instance Santo. Some of you guys may not agree, but Santo is right up there with Ballance in my opinion. He had a few gremlins these past races, but that boy is fast. He could win at any moment and I'm waiting for him to do just that. Not to take anything away from Borich but that's how I feel. Now factor in that he has to switch to a 4-stroke. Santo, Borich, hertz, and the rest have to re-adjust to a whole new bike at the peak of their rise to the #1 plate. I am confident they will all overcome that adversity but it leaves the big "what if" scenario. It may also even the playing field next season and we may see a whole new goup of leaders on the track both old and new. It may end up being a battle of who can adjust to the 4-stroke quikest. Then that leaves the pro-pro guys with the advantage. I am ashamed to say that it will be good for the fans but frustating for the racers who will be forced to switch. But it will be interesting and I predict that Ballance will not win the championship next year. The R will not be forgotten!

I just moved one of my posts over here.

cdalejef

10-21-2003, 07:56 AM

It won't be killed, there will still be plenty in the amature classes. ZRacer is right, Racer Productions is on the right track by helping to get the factories invloved.
Things are looking great for ATV racing!!!

cdalejef

10-21-2003, 07:57 AM

Posted by remlapr:

Jeff - have they said anything about the Dales? Since they aren't currently in production seems like they would be a target also...

cdalejef

10-21-2003, 07:58 AM

Posted by jlhughes750:

the monster becomes the mouse!!hahaha

I can't get all worked up over this, I don't run Pro and never will, so no use crying bout it..

BUT, ...think about this!!.. what about the guys that logged nearly half a million miles overs 5 years and have 3 dialed in totally set up R's and have been giving $ to racers production for years, and now all the sudden they gotta have a clearance sale and get new bikes???? eff that!!!

Whats Derisi gonna do?? Hertz?? Rice??and what about the 250A class??? lets just run them with the morning racers in the non points first year racers class, cause if u do good enough to move up outta A then u gotta get a new bike??? The guys that cant spend the $ for a new ride, will stay in the A class(250A) till they get $ to ride a production machine!! i guess thats how it'll trickle down to the ametures!!

cdalejef

10-21-2003, 07:59 AM

Posted by DeCesare79:

At first I did not like the idea of Pro Production only but after I thought about it more and more I agree now that the Pro's should be on Production quads. Yes it sucks that they only have 2 months to prepare but if you make the rules now and stick with it, I think in the next couple years we will see some better racing. I also think there should be a 450cc limit on the quads. This will keep the pro's on more even equipment and push the factories more to keep updating the quads like they do the bikes. If everyone is on more even equipment, I think it will give a chance for the upper top 10 guys to compete for the wins and give the riders who are smarter racers wins.

BUCK442

10-21-2003, 08:32 AM

I feel that it will only boost the ATV racing industry. Look at the bike side of racing and all of the support and recognition it recieves, but you dont see any hand made bikes they are all production machines. I also feel that it will only increase the amount of competition as it will be much more affordable. The days of seeing factory backed quad riders is here and it will grow, why would someone want to buy brand X quad if it pays no money thus I asume most race quad manufactures will have to step up and provide some support. Honda has dominated the atv sport for years, but how many honda reps, banners and haulers have you seen at the races. This topic will brew much debate but the good far outways the bad.

I have been reluctant to put what brand I race on my race card just because it is free advertising for the manufacture. If certain companies dont step up and provide support should we list other when we race???:macho

bradley300

10-21-2003, 08:42 AM

how is the pro production calss any cheaper than the pro class when the only mechanical difference is a two thousand dollar frame?

as long as the 2 strokes arent banned i geuss it wold be ok, but someone did pose a good question- what about the 250 A guys? tell sorry your SOL, buy a new quad? that dosent seem right to me. i think if this is going to be done, it should take atleast a year of warning.

Bart

10-21-2003, 08:46 AM

What will be the rule for the pro GNCC bikes next year? Why should the rule for pro quads be any different?

Is racer productions going to force the pro bikes to only run 4 strokes?

What if a pro wants to run a Banshee? That is still a production quad that happens to be a 2 stroke. And don't forget the GasGas.

I realize it is only going to really affect a small portion of the riders. But I just hate giving in to the environmental wackos.

Pappy

10-21-2003, 08:47 AM

i think there should still be an open pro class for those that are eligable. that would still allow the aftermarket to test and sponsor riders that WANT to ride a full aftermarket quad.

the pro production class should be production based ....stock frame. that will allow the factories to pick up a rider and have a factory team if they choose.

im glad there seems to be some factory involvement but im not gonna jump up and down too damn much....they only ignored us for how long:confused:

coryatver

10-21-2003, 08:50 AM

How is anybody going to have time to get a 450r ready when they don't come out untill december and the first race is in january?

Pappy

10-21-2003, 08:52 AM

Originally posted by coryatver
How is anybody going to have time to get a 450r ready when they don't come out untill december and the first race is in january?

id think that the pro level riders will have thier 450r 's in time to race them this coming season. the average mud monkey may not but they dont race pro.

aftermarket parts where available for the yfz and pro mx riders had them on the quads the same day they were delivered to teh shop.

cdalejef

10-21-2003, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by bradley300

as long as the 2 strokes arent banned i geuss it wold be ok, but someone did pose a good question- what about the 250 A guys? tell sorry your SOL, buy a new quad? that dosent seem right to me. i think if this is going to be done, it should take atleast a year of warning. There will still be a 250A class! The rule will only be in effect for the pro class.

cdalejef

10-21-2003, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by Fred
What will be the rule for the pro GNCC bikes next year? Why should the rule for pro quads be any different?

Is racer productions going to force the pro bikes to only run 4 strokes?

What if a pro wants to run a Banshee? That is still a production quad that happens to be a 2 stroke. And don't forget the GasGas.

I realize it is only going to really affect a small portion of the riders. But I just hate giving in to the environmental wackos. The manufactures are still producing 2-stroke bikes. This isn't a 2-stroke vs 4-stroke issue, Its a production vs nonproduction issue.
It was brought up in the meeting about racing Banshee and Gas Gas 2-strokes, and everyone seemed to agree they should be allowed to run the class!
I guess I should change the topic to production machines since it is a little confusing.

quadman21

10-21-2003, 08:57 AM

Hmmmn?? Buck, people want to race first and foremost because they enjoy it. Then secondly they see the side of "can I make money at this?" Everyone's dream is to make money doing what they like for fun even if your a golfer. However I do agree with you about the motorcycle side of it.
Before last year and the introduction of the Z400, there was no support for quads and Honda didn't even have an XC bike team except for Summers. I still don't see a Honda factory rig at any GNCC. For that matter, the only riders signed are mxers. GNCC is where the products make the most sense to be tested. I also think people like you and I will by X product because we like it and not because we'll get paid for it if we raced it.
In another thread there was some comments made about how much power the ATVA/AMA had over Racer P. or vice versa. I would like to know that myself? because if the ATVA states one thing, than I think Racer P. should follow. Otherwise, why do we need to pay an ATVA membership if we do not race a series that follows the guidelines set forth by the ATVA?
Finally, I just think that this whole Factory deal is gonna leave a bad taste in our mouths. I hope not, but I really feel that once (or even if they trickle to the GNCC) that we won't like it and the smaller guys like us or JLHUGHS will suffer. Why do we need to be told what kind of quad to run? What about all the wide eyed rookies that are dreaming to become a pro rider that will be told that their machine is not legal in the pro ranks anymore? It is not more affordable to race the production quads on a pro level. After you buy all the suspension components and engine kits plus the price tag of the machine, you will easily be up to 15-20 grand.

Bart

10-21-2003, 08:58 AM

Sorry. My bad on the 2 stroke confusion.

cdalejef

10-21-2003, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by Pappy
id think that the pro level riders will have thier 450r 's in time to race them this coming season. the average mud monkey may not but they dont race pro.

aftermarket parts where available for the yfz and pro mx riders had them on the quads the same day they were delivered to teh shop. I agree! Some aftermarket parts are already available just waiting for the quad to be released! Now you can buy a new quad from the factory that will be competive without very many mods at all! Slap on shocks, bars, wheels and tires and you have a pro lever race ready bike! Gone are the days whey you have to buy a frame and all major components to be competive.
Last year I raced a $15,000 250R and this year I raced an $8000 Cannondale. I have done better this year than in my 15 years of racing!

cdalejef

10-21-2003, 09:04 AM

Quadman, this is only for the pro class! All the amature classes will still be allowed to run 250R's for years to come.

LS@GtThunder

10-21-2003, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by Jeff@QuadShop
Please post your comments and concearns about the GNCC pro class going to all current production based machines next year.

You asked for it so here goes.

This sport is changing fast, growing fast, and experiencing many of the difficulties and complications that go with a fast growing sport or company.

First we need to look at what is good for the sport, what is good for Racer Productions (this is a business endeavor for them), and what is good for the competitors. On many issues – what is good for one is also good for the rest.

A few questions might be.

1. Is it good for the sport for Bill Balance (since he is the currant champion) to run a 4-stroke production bike?
2. Is this good for RP?
3. Is this good for the competitors?

I am sure you can all add more to this but if Bill Balance was to ride a 4 Stroke - the chances of greater support from the factories to him is possible, the chances of amateurs buying more of the same bike as he rides is greater, the chances of the competing factories to improve their product is greater – all of which spill down to better bikes for less money for the amateurs as the bikes evolve into better machines just as the 2 wheelers did in the 70s and 80s. Is a “no 2 stroke” rule necessary to make this happen?? Would a production-based rule help this to happen??

Will any rule like this help RP?? Anything that brings in more riders is good for RP and the sport – but the question is will this bring in more riders?? Would a rule like this bring in more sponsorship money for RP from the factories?? If it does, this again can spill down to betterment for the sport.

Will this help competitors?? It will obviously hurt a few people that are on 2 strokes in the short term.

Do we really need this rule to point the industry in the right direction?? Or will the 2 strokes phase out on their own as the production quads improve??

I have very mixed feelings on this topic as you can tell. I decision on this subject will have long-term effects. I do like how FIM handles many rule changes – they typically will change a rule - long in advance allowing for several years leading up to the change.

I would be in favor and heartily support production based quad rules (2 stroke or 4 stroke, pro and amateure) and sound level rules being put in place now for 2005 giving all parties involved plenty of time to comply with out the cost of a quick change. I know sound level rules are in place now but informing the competitors and exhaust companies that they will be enforced at a specific time in the future allows for reasonable changes in a reasonable time.

LS

Wingnut

10-21-2003, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by Jeff@QuadShop
Quadman, this is only for the pro class! All the amature classes will still be allowed to run 250R's for years to come.

I think what he is reffering to is the 250A and Open A racers who have been improving over they years as well as building up their 250Rs. Now, some of them are ready to go pro, but the 250R they have so much time and money invested in will not be allowed to move up to pro with the rider. That leaves them with the choices of staying in an A class or starting all over on a new machine.

quadman21

10-21-2003, 09:26 AM

I understand Jeff. I know that the amateur will be running Rs, but when they advance to a pro level they won't and that's alright. But a quad an amateur was winning on, he or she will have to switch most likely unless they advanced on a production quad to start with. I'm not completey against the new proposed rule. I'm only complaining about the speed in which they propose the pro level riders to switch. As I said before, I beleive it will even the playing field and make for more exciting racing. I don't react to change very well I reckon:( But what about your dale? I know someone else asked but I am curous if they will allow the dales until all is taken care of with them? Then what will you ride? Also Jeff, what do you know about the influence of ATVA/AMA with Racer p. or vice versa? What I mean with that question is can Racer P. deviate from ATVA guidelines if they are an ATVA/AMA series?

quadman21

10-21-2003, 09:48 AM

Wingnut, that is exactly what I am saying!
This is most likely getting off on another tangent, BUT, what if this does work and the series grows even more? Where does it go? There is already moring and evening races for quads and bikes. So where do you go when more riders turn out and you have just as many riders per morning and evening races as you did when they split? quads on opposte weekends of bikes? I only threw that out there because I hear repeatedly that this will make our sport grow.

Wingnut

10-21-2003, 10:18 AM

I have been thinking for a while that there needs to be some kind of split. I don't know if it would be better to have the races split up with dirt bikes on one weekend and ATVs the next or have them both the same weekend at different tracks. Having the races split could help bring in the factory sponsorship that everyone wants. As it is now the factorys are being represented during the ATV races because they are there for the dirtbikes. If the series was split the factories would not be represented during the ATV races and if they wanted to be they would be forced to have some kind of sponsorship. They may just sponsor the race or some racer(s), but it would be a huge step. Kawasaki already supports ATVs so I'm sure they would be there, and the other manufacturers would not want Kawasaki to be the only one getting the exposure.

bradley300

10-21-2003, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by Wingnut
I think what he is reffering to is the 250A and Open A racers who have been improving over they years as well as building up their 250Rs. Now, some of them are ready to go pro, but the 250R they have so much time and money invested in will not be allowed to move up to pro with the rider. That leaves them with the choices of staying in an A class or starting all over on a new machine.

you hit the nail on the head wingnut. i am in favor of a pro open and pro production class.

not that it matters, i will never be good enough to enter either, and the ole 300ex qualifies for either should i get there anyway.:rolleyes:

cinigen9

10-21-2003, 10:29 AM

I feel that much of the growth that will occur for our sport will be at the local/regional levels. More opportunities for the average rider to race, and the up and comers to hone their skills, as well as qualify for national events.

Wingnut

10-21-2003, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by Wingnut
I have been thinking for a while that there needs to be some kind of split. I don't know if it would be better to have the races split up with dirt bikes on one weekend and ATVs the next or have them both the same weekend at different tracks. Having the races split could help bring in the factory sponsorship that everyone wants. As it is now the factorys are being represented during the ATV races because they are there for the dirtbikes. If the series was split the factories would not be represented during the ATV races and if they wanted to be they would be forced to have some kind of sponsorship. They may just sponsor the race or some racer(s), but it would be a huge step. Kawasaki already supports ATVs so I'm sure they would be there, and the other manufacturers would not want Kawasaki to be the only one getting the exposure.

I'd also like to add that this will only work if RP does not treat us as second rate series. It would force some of the usual vendors to choose between the dirtbikes and ATVs, but I still see it as a way to bring in the manufacturers.

Doibugu2

10-21-2003, 10:50 AM

I don't understand a lot of what is going on, but why does it matter if you run pro or not?

When Jeff finished saturday, he got 6th in pro, but seemed upset that he only got 18th (I think). It seems like he is shooting for the overall not the best in his class.

Sorry, new guy needing help.

jlhughes750

10-21-2003, 11:10 AM

I'm not gonna say much more on this topic but i will leave with this.

the most fair,respected,and easiest way to make the transition.

Keep it the way it was this year, Open Pro and Pro Prod. But RP needs to offer insentives, and more $ to the Pro Prod riders, that way it'll sweeten the pot a lil and eventually everyone will switch to Pro Prod. A guy might make $500 a race finishing 5th in Prod, but maybe only $300 to win the Open Pro class. Well guys u can still run that Laeger R but factory X is given more $ to the Production class purse.. .... I think that would be a smoother way to do things!!!!!!!

Later

cdalejef

10-21-2003, 11:23 AM

A pro-am class was brought up, this would be a stepping stone for selected A riders to move into before going pro. It would allow 250R's and payback 80% similar to the GNC series.

One of the main ideas behind this is for the factories to offer contingency awards to the amature classes as well as pro. Without the pro switiching to productions bikes, this will be very hard to convince the factories todo.

As far as Cannondales being allowed to race pro under new rules next year, good question! If they are not allowed to race, then I will simply switch to another brand.

jlhughes750

10-21-2003, 11:48 AM

for the record: i am not totally against the proposed ruling, i just feel theres a classier way to go about it. I prefer racing thumpers, but i am a long time R fan. I am as passionate for this sport as anyone and i am excited for its future. I am excited about all the new bikes and factory involvent, i'm even building a YFZ this winter, i just hope the approach this decision tactfully and do whats best for all the racers, not just 7 or 10 of them..

i like the pro am idea!!

Decasare and Wahl for example.... Wahl spent this year gettin back into the swing so he could run in Pro real strong next year, and i'm sure he could!! After 13 rounds and with out warning now his plans are ruined.

like i said this means nothing to me personally since it does not affect me, i'm just trying to show it from the other perspective.

later, J

cdalejef

10-21-2003, 12:11 PM

Its being done with the best intentions for all racers. There were only 2 or 3 people in the meeting that felt strongly against it. They are still looking at all posibilities as we speak!

DeCesare79

10-21-2003, 12:55 PM

I like the Pro-Am idea, but I think that when it comes to throw aways, it shouldnt be set somewhere between the amatuers and the pros. This giving another steping stone from amatuers to Pros.

DeCesare79

10-21-2003, 01:00 PM

Yet another idea

Everything by your overall number for next year.

1-25- Pro Production - Count all 14 rounds

1-40 - Eligible for Open Pro-Am- Count 12 rounds

41-up - Eligible for any A class- Count 10 rounds

Something like that.

Ryan

10-21-2003, 03:28 PM

Im not gonna say to much because im still a little confused on whats going on.

Originally posted by Wingnut
I'd also like to add that this will only work if RP does not treat us as second rate series. It would force some of the usual vendors to choose between the dirtbikes and ATVs, but I still see it as a way to bring in the manufacturers.

Wingnut, I doubt RP would ever consider having the bikes on one weekend, and the atv's on another weekend. It would be more money for RP, and they would have to make sure they can book the area for the next weekend. For now, the atv's will always be lower then the bikes.

I think having the pro's all race 4-stroke production machines is a good idea. However, like someone else said, I don't think they should switch it for 04. But atlease give a warning for 05 if they are going to do it.

If all the pro's are riding production based machines, it would be a greater chance that the manufacturers would get involved.

cdalejef

10-21-2003, 03:35 PM

This isn't something that popped up out of the blue, everyone knew it was coming. Consider this, the GNC series has already done it!

Ryan

10-21-2003, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by Jeff@QuadShop
This isn't something that popped up out of the blue, everyone knew it was coming. Consider this, the GNC series has already done it!

:uhoh: .

Wingnut

10-21-2003, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by Ryan

Wingnut, I doubt RP would ever consider having the bikes on one weekend, and the atv's on another weekend. It would be more money for RP, and they would have to make sure they can book the area for the next weekend. For now, the atv's will always be lower then the bikes.

I know, I was just responding to what Quadman21 said. I believer Racer Production does some other races when they are not at the GNCCs, and they probably want to keep those races.

RUNMYTA

10-21-2003, 07:50 PM

My $.02 is that there should be NO restriction on the Pro Class. If I am a privateer or have minimal sponsors I should be able to race whatever I feel confortable on, whether it be a ROLL R or a YZF. I personally think Pro and Pro-Production should be left the way it is.

It just goes back to the old saying: Run what you brung!

Another thought: What about all of the support from the after-market companies? These guys have been supporting Pro racers from day one and now what... We don't need them now???
Oh well, what do I KNOW.:huh

popo

10-21-2003, 11:27 PM

Well, I guess you can still keep it old school. Put 250R plastic on the new Honda 450.

z400ACDC

10-22-2003, 06:22 AM

IMO, I think it is time for the R to go now that we have all the new quads to choose from. The aftermarket guys will continue to make all the parts for the pro class except frames. It helps our sport to see racers on quads that can bought at the dealership. Before the 400EX came out, the trails were full of R's. The last trip to LBL, I didn't even see one.

XANDADA

10-22-2003, 09:11 AM

If they make that rule change I don't see how they could still allow Cannondale's when the manufacturer is out of business. Also what is considered production? Would the Service Honda's CR/TRX250R hybrid be considered a production unit. It is produced in quantity albiet very low production. Some additional things to consider.....:confused:

quadman21

10-22-2003, 09:29 AM

Would the Service Honda's CR/TRX250R hybrid be considered a production unit.

Godd question. Maybe it would be the same reason we don't see Honda or Toyota cars in Nascar?

Ryan

10-22-2003, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by quadman21
Godd question. Maybe it would be the same reason we don't see Honda or Toyota cars in Nascar?

You will see Toyota Nascars very soon. Trust me ;) .

bmw500hp

10-22-2003, 09:40 AM

Remember the golden rule "the man with the gold rules" well the man with the (major) gold does not make much money off the 2 strokes. However he stands to make money off the sale of the New four strokes.

Enter this scenario:

Eliminate the 250r's and more or less turn a deaf ear to the words of service honda or gas gas and you have a recipe to make money off Honda/Suzuki/Kawasaki in regards for competive sponsorship much like Maxxis/Itp.

Hell, If you were Honda/Yamaha would you want to spend a boat load of cash as a gncc sponsor only to see a 1980's 2 stroke roll in and upstage your last 6 years of developement?

Despite the odds, this is a possibility!

Especially when the aftermarket parts world are dominating the support of the 250r and Honda makes little margins if any on it's maintenence.

When you can't figure out why anything is the way it is...look at who stands to benifit financially from the proposition and who and how they side with to accomplish the proposed goal. Then take how they tell you it will be to your benifit and reverse the statement...lol

I don't know squat about sqaut but I do know that if I owned the series, my people would be soliciting major manufactures and major media players. This is the way any event is run! and this is way profit is made.

The competitors will be racing whether they like the outcome or not.

If I am dead wrong, I stand for correction!

chad duvall

10-22-2003, 04:30 PM

Just a thought for you guys still wondering about the Production class. I am sure you know by now what I am for and that I went to the 4 stroke two years ago, but for what exact reason? It is now happening! For the future of the sport for the up and comers! It has even more brought to my attention here the last two races when I switched to a YFZ of my friends and again felt I could run with the front runners and not just for the money but for the people who backed me. Yes the sponsors, my family, friends and fans. I cant really tell you what has been offered to me money wise but I know that you all cant say that money dont talk and especially when it is at what you love to do! I love doing this and when it makes it easier on my family and I can pay my pit crew it is even better. I know that the ATV industry is going in the right direction and I am saddened that it took the 4strokes to make it happen but let the future happen for you all, you maybe suprised to find what is waiting there!

cdalejef

10-22-2003, 04:48 PM

Man Chad....that brought a tear to my eye! :p
I can't believe the dark year are finally coming to an end.:macho

cdalejef

10-23-2003, 07:38 AM

Posted by joedirt:

WHAT IS UP WITH THE GNCC AND GNC BANNING THE 250R IN THE PRO CLASS. MY TAKE IS IF THEY CAN'T PRODUCE A QUAD TO BEAT IT SHAME ON THEM. IS A 89 CR250 BANNED FROM RACING THE PRO CLASSES AT THE GNCC'S AND MX NATIONALS?

cdalejef

10-23-2003, 07:39 AM

posted by Smokey:

They are looking at helping the riders . Why shoudl Yamaha offer the YZ Bucks program for the 450 if a old 250R is still winning ? Dont get me wrong I like the R but I wish they would of done this a long time ago so more of us could get more help . By doing this it will only make the sport grow and maybe one day we will see the return of Factory quad riders like when quads first came out . Is there a young racer out there thats doesnt dream of being a Factory rider ??? It coudl happen , maybe not but lets all hope .

Bart

10-23-2003, 07:52 AM

Maybe if 250R based quads continued to dominate, Yamaha, Honda, etc... would consider producing another 250R. They still make 250cc 2 stroke dirtbikes. And Yamaha still produces a few 2 stroke quads.

I just think it's a shame that the factories gave into the environmental wackos and protection police so many years ago. If the factories were producing a 250cc quad and nobody was buying/racing it, that would be one thing. It's another thing when the factories are too chicken to offer a 250cc quad.

After reading the many posts, I agree that having the pro class go to production based quads is probably the best thing for the whole. I guess I just need to form my own company and produce some 250cc quads if I want to race them.

BUCK442

10-23-2003, 08:54 AM

Well said Chad!

I applaud all of the other Pro Riders as well for their dedication to the sport and instead of fighting the system the are evolving with it. With top ranked and well respected riders such as Chad, Bill, Matt, William, Brad, Brandon, Todd, and lets not forget Johnny C all on four strokes it will be very difficult for the manufactures to deny these guys support. If they don't (now that there are more top quality race quads in production) I would only imagine they would ride brand X instead.

Like Chad said even though we do this for the love of the sport the support just makes it easier to provide for our families. And you all know how many times the wives have complained about those 1,000 dollar weekends.:rolleyes:

MY 2cents.

10-23-2003, 11:53 AM

Well if their PRO's then i see no reason why they can't adapt to a thumper in a short amount of time..:blah:

jlhughes750

10-23-2003, 12:31 PM

i like the idea of what there doing 100%!!!!!!! i just don't think there doing it the right way...JOEDIRT said it best.... if u can't beat it bury it!!!!

I think there was alot of people who new it was coming. Ballance had his suzuki a long time. Borich has been testing 2 thumpers locally all year, not to mention all the riders that switched over last year to Pro Prod.....

the big question is what to do about the C dales...... its not currently being built???? is it a custom built hybrid??? if its allowed and the R not then whats the sense??? just curious??

i still think the ONLY way to faze out the R is to make it cheaper for riders to race a Prod machine by ofering incentives to the Prod class that the Open Pro class does not have. Do not dictate what they can race, just dictate how much $ they'll win if they do!! Sure u can race that R but its gotta be in the Open Pro class and that class only pays 50% and theres no contingency!!!!! But if u run a Prod bike in Pro Prod, u can get $ from Yami for running a YFZ then theres series sponsor $ and prize $.......etc...

this is great for our local races, all the Pros would run there thumpers last year in the locals so they didn't tear up the R's and they could save them for the GNCC's... now they'll be running the R's locally and saving the thumpers for the GNCC's..

later, J

guedo

10-23-2003, 05:09 PM

I cant see the factories getting 100% involved with the current pro prod class the way it is currently set up. Simply because these machines are not a true factory machine that the pros are running. They still have major money invested in these machines with AFTREMARKET parts to make them fully competetive. Ballance has stated this himself. However I can see the possibility of a joint vernture with the factories and aftermarket companies. There is currently only one true production class, in my opion, and thats the 4 stroke stock class. I think RP should consider adding a factory production class with the same rules as the 4 stroke stock class. Maybe this would entice the factories to put a rider on a true production machine and back them 100%. This new class would also allow the Gas Gas and what ever else is currently in production. The factories could now show how well their bikes can perform with all the mods (pro prod)and also bone stock.
And about the R, I guess I missed something but I have not heard or seen the factories knocking down any doors for the GNCC's. So why kill it ASAP. It sounds like this decision is being made on what might happen in future years, not what is happening now. Although I do hope the factories come very soon because in the end it will only benefit every aspect of atving.

ex kid

10-23-2003, 07:03 PM

JLHUGHES has the idea.i do agree with JOEDIRT too. let the two strokes live.i dont like the idea of taking the Pro class out of the spotlight but theese racers deserve factory support and i think this is the only way to get it done. let the production class start on the front row and let them have the spotlight and make the Pro class two stroke only.so even if Chris Borich is racing an R and starting on the 2nd row and he is winning his class, Ballence and those dudes are still the center of attention because there taking the overall.

if i was at Yamaha and i saw a 15 year old bike winning that would anger me a little and want to give one of the top guys all kinds of dough and cool stuff so they could go out and beat the Honda.

Cannondales should be allowed in the production class if ATK currently producing Cannondales just with the ATK name. if not they can still rin the Pro class.

chad duvall

10-23-2003, 10:16 PM

THIS IS FORE 250R GUYS. HOW MANY HONDA PARTS ARE ON CHIRS AND BILLY BIKES OR SANTO.LETS START A STOCK PART LIST.LET SEE WHAT WE COME UP WITH THANKS CHAD :huh

holeshot19

10-24-2003, 02:54 AM

Originally posted by chad duvall
THIS IS FORE 250R GUYS. HOW MANY HONDA PARTS ARE ON CHIRS AND BILLY BIKES OR SANTO.LETS START A STOCK PART LIST.LET SEE WHAT WE COME UP WITH THANKS CHAD :huh brake master cly, brake cailpers, tie rod ends,wireing harness, cdi box,air box, fuel tank brackets-and petcock,thumb throtle,engine cases-some of the internal trans gears and shafts and shifter forks, stater.:blah:

quadman21

10-24-2003, 05:18 AM

When I first posted on this thread I was against the un-timely proposed production only pro class rule.but now I understand that the rules would imply that even if you brought a mojave or banshee that you could still race it under the new proposed class. The key word is production. Also, Although it is a noble thought that the factorys will get iinvolved if we start riding their quads, I'm still skeptical. I hope i am wrong and have to come back here to eat crow BUT, how many years did Kuhnle race his Banshee and finsh in the top five consistantly? How many years has the 250R striclty dominate? Why did kawasaki race a prototype for three seasons just to abandon the project and use the Suzuki? I only use these examples because we have already shown the factories that we use their machines to win and they done nothing? Honda is the most blind of them all. If I were Honda, I would have brought back the R or a very similar version years ago to cash in on the sales. We have already proved it wins. That would have put the other companys in a postion to step up their game and who knows where the sport would have been now. But what honda does is release another 400EX but on steroids then call it a 450R. I'm not mad at the way this sport is progressing, I just wish it could of happened sooner and in a diffeterent way. I look forward to the "official" release and descision on what's in store next year for the pro class.

Pappy

10-24-2003, 05:18 AM

Originally posted by chad duvall
THIS IS FORE 250R GUYS. HOW MANY HONDA PARTS ARE ON CHIRS AND BILLY BIKES OR SANTO.LETS START A STOCK PART LIST.LET SEE WHAT WE COME UP WITH THANKS CHAD :huh

damn skippy:)

but then again you pro's can win on a bone stock quad with zero aftermarket parts. i hate to see the playing field leveled....what next ..restrictor plates at wisp:eek: :devil:

popo

10-24-2003, 05:18 AM

Originally posted by holeshot19
brake master cly, brake cailpers, tie rod ends,wireing harness, cdi box,air box, fuel tank brackets-and petcock,thumb throtle,engine cases-some of the internal trans gears and shafts and shifter forks, stater.:blah:

Sorry, I just bought Bill's front brake calipers and master cly.

FYI, Baldwin make an adaptor bracket so you can use 250R dual piston calipers on Z400 & 400EX's.

bradley300

10-24-2003, 07:29 AM

chad what was a honda part on your 500ex? i wouldnt think there was any thing more "honda" on your quad than there is on ballances r besides your stock frame.

XANDADA

10-24-2003, 07:44 AM

I would still like to know what are the determining factors that define "PRODUCTION"? Is manufacturer? # units sold annually? Sales volume in $?

My point is that there is this little thing called limited production. What about the service honda cr/trx/ex hybrid. It is being manufactured/produced. Also look at Baldwin, he has made numerous custom built crf450's from the ground up? Yes they have aftermarket parts but that could simply be interpreted at "outsourcing" in the manufacturing process! Both Honda and Yamaha are outsourcing their shocks!!!! I'm sure there are numerous other parts as well....

If I manufacture 10 of something in a year how can it not be considered production? Is it because I don't have the potential to spend a million dollars in advertising/marketing? Yes, I know I'm taking this to the extreme but what is the criteria? 50 units, 100 units, 1,000 units, 10,000.....:blah:

bradley300

10-24-2003, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by bmw500hp

Hell, If you were Honda/Yamaha would you want to spend a boat load of cash as a gncc sponsor only to see a 1980's 2 stroke roll in and upstage your last 6 years of developement?

honestly, i think its sad that that can happen. the factories have had 15 YEARS to come up with something to beat it.

my idea, any quad ever produced is allowed in the pro class, as long as the meet the pro-production rules. this includes 250's of yester year and the new two and four strokes of today.

this way, let ballance, borich and all the 250A guys run thier r, as long as they can find a frame for it. this way everybody is happy, you can still run your r, and at the same time, they will be phased out since stock r frames will become hard to find.

10-24-2003, 08:03 AM

The R has been beat several times this year in the Pro Class. Confused on why everyone thinks it can't be beat:confused: :confused: It has and will continue to get it's old crusty *** handed to it as time goes on. Long live the thumpers...:macho

bradley300

10-24-2003, 09:20 AM

overall i think its still the better machine, ballance says he faster on his production bikes but didnt win on them, but switched back to the r for the ironman and won again.

and if it is so beatable now, why dont we drop the issue and keep the rules as they are?

jlhughes750

10-24-2003, 09:51 AM

i love my R, i love my EX and i'll love my YFZ when its time!!!!!

can't we all just get along?????

I do agree with an earlier post about the stk class.

the stk class is the only true production class.. this is the class that should get the YZ or TRX bucks
$ and all the support. Pro Production class cost efective and equal, i think not!!!!! The point is to make it easier for a guy to get right into racing!!! Well lets use a 4strk A class example, since average local Joe thats fast can't race in the Pro class anymore (since last years rule change) with out investing a season in the A class!!!!! There is not one guy in the A class thats gonna have a stock YFZ, they'll all have, frt. ends, swingarms, shocks, stems pipes,beadlocks,axles,antifades,ingnitions,stabili zers,bars,etc.etc.etc......u know its true!!! BANG there u go with a 12-15K$ quad again, and its Production class legal.... Yokes quad this year would probably cost 15-17 to put together!!!! I can pick up a used R , ROLL Leager, Arens etc, for around 5-7K$ ready to race!!!

Thanks Racer Productions my favorite machine just got cheaper. And last years Pro rule combined with this years proposed ruling just made the average Joe or Jane that has no conections and only earns 0-30K a year busting his/her butt give up all hope of ever being a GNCC Pro racer. Now that ole, R thats been doing them fine till they get in shape and save enough $ to travel to the series is a waste. Oh but now its better and easier, just head down to the local shop and pick up a $6500 quad, then throw around 5K into it, now u can dream of working your way through the A class into the Pro's again!!!!!!!! Why would Joe want to spend a season trying to win an A class (so he move to Pro) only to have to switch bike in order to move up, new bike ,new fatigue, less confidence in a new machin!!!!!

hahahaha believe it or not i'm middle of the rode on this decision, can't u tell!!!!!!!!!;)

10-24-2003, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by bradley300
overall i think its still the better machine, ballance says he faster on his production bikes but didnt win on them, but switched back to the r for the ironman and won again.

and if it is so beatable now, why dont we drop the issue and keep the rules as they are?

I don't think RP is concentrating on whether or not it can be beat but whether or not the big wigs are gonna jump in to help riders that are on production bikes that are being made at this very second..:blah: Jackazz

660bigdaddy

10-25-2003, 06:18 AM

believe it or not i'm middle of the rode on this decision, can't u tell!!!!!!!!! i hate fence riders.
i was watching some old 2001 gncc tapes and i think there was 2 thumpers in the pro class at the time. one was c. crump on the new rappy. and steve holbert on the dale. now that almost everyone in on a 4 stroke, and very few custom R's left. what is the big deal about buying a new bike to run in this class? shoot, i've bought 4 quads since oct. 00. racing is not for the weak of wallet. :macho that's the way it is. run what you can and keep dreaming. i think a guy should have to earn a spot on the front row. jmo

ex kid

10-25-2003, 07:07 AM

whatever decison RP comes to it will have a good reason behind it. at the same time they are deffinatly going to have some pissed off racers.

p.s. personally id like to see a cannondale or two on the podium.

DeCesare79

10-25-2003, 07:51 AM

Chad,

You brought up a good point about how many stock parts are left on Bill's 250R. How many stock parts are you going to keep on your Yamaha next year? Are you going to run Houser A-Arms and Swingarms?

It just seems that it doesnt matter if it is a 15 yr old 250R or a 2004 YFZ, The Pro's change almost all the same items.

RUNMYTA

10-25-2003, 09:15 AM

AS stated before, "Run what you brung":macho

87250r88

10-25-2003, 07:24 PM

I say let the rules as they are. If you guys think the thumpers are so much better than the 2 strokes it won't take to long for the 2 strokes to disappear. But I don't think that is the case.

There will only be a selected few that are going to see any factory money. Where have the factories been for the last 17 years ? I bet they have been taking the ATV money to help make Jeremy Mcgrath and Ricky Carmichael millionares !!!

cdalejef

10-27-2003, 07:13 AM

Originally posted by 87250r88
I say let the rules as they are. If you guys think the thumpers are so much better than the 2 strokes it won't take to long for the 2 strokes to disappear. But I don't think that is the case.

There will only be a selected few that are going to see any factory money. Where have the factories been for the last 17 years ? I bet they have been taking the ATV money to help make Jeremy Mcgrath and Ricky Carmichael millionares !!! As I posted before, rumor has it that contingency money will be available to ALL racers. ;)