PDA

View Full Version : Comparing the 450r & YFZ450 by the numbers



400exTN
09-11-2003, 09:42 AM
TRX450R
Engine 449 liquid-cooled
Bore & Stroke 94x64.8
Compression 10.5:1
Valve Unicam, four valve
Carburetion 42mm w/ TPS
Front Suspension 8.4 travel
Rear 9.0 travel
Length 72.6
Width 46.3
Height 43.6
Wheelbase 49.2
Seat Height 32.6
Ground Clearance 4.2
Dry Weight 350
Fuel Capacity 3.2

YFZ450
Engine 439 liquid-cooled
Bore & Stroke 95x62
Compression 11.9:1
Valve Titanium 5 valve DOHC
Carburetion FCR 39 w/TPS
Front Suspension 9.1
Rear 10.1
Length 72.4
Width 46.1
Height 42.9
Wheelbase 50.4
Seat Height 31.5
Ground Clearance 4.4
Dry Weight 350
Fuel Capacity 2.6

Pros
$1000 to $1,200 less for the stroked crank
Hondas proven reliability

Cons
Will most likely need a different carb
Hi comp piston as well


Most racers will replace the A arms, Shocks, etc.. With aftermarket products.

How will the two compare with a pipe, air filter & jetting and a cam or cam mod and which is overall less expensive with this?

We got a quad that cost less, already has the stroked crank with a proven quality frame and handling.
Last point there's a reason many of the top pros transplant the CRF450 motor into aftermarket frames v/s the YZ450F motor.
Have a little faith. My guess is the 450r will be on par with the YFZ450 if not better.


Let me know if I missed anything

trueblue450
09-11-2003, 09:45 AM
they will be similar..what will count is whos riding them!

Sandgod4
09-12-2003, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by trueblue450
they will be similar..what will count is whos riding them!

Very true..


Low comp and 4 valves, stainless steel valves, shorter legs = less performance in stock form...The Yamaha is more impressive in my unbiased opinion.. I don't ride red or blue. I ride red, white, and blue...

nismo
09-12-2003, 01:26 PM
y is everyone mad or dissapointed we havent even seen it perform i think people are just a little to quick to judge something that they dont know about (you dont know anything until you riding or try it):mad: :grr: (there isnt any flame in this thread about it yet but there will be. maybe they will think before they speak)

dirtriderex
09-12-2003, 01:59 PM
Because we now how the valves and engine works. If your really into engines you would know the power just by looking at specifications.

ridered03
09-12-2003, 02:37 PM
will the yfz rev any faster cause its got a shorter stroke???

CBW
09-12-2003, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by ridered03
will the yfz rev any faster cause its got a shorter stroke???


YFZ does rev out fast......and up to 10,750;)

cheetah
09-12-2003, 03:04 PM
Seeing as the YFZ has DOHC, would it not respond better to mods?

ROGERS
09-14-2003, 07:50 PM
Both engines will respond to mods. But remember the Honda is detuned more than the Yamaha, so it will show bigger gains with added components. There will only be so much one could do to squeeze more power out of either one. They will both end up making mid to high 40's hp when the average Joe Racer gets done with the usual modifications. It won't be so much how much hp you have that will win races, but how it is delivered.

09-14-2003, 08:52 PM
a worked crf motor can have way more then 40hp.

why would you need a different carb on the trx450? throw an exhaust on it and k&n and that carb will make the bike come to life, add in a little porting, shave the head.....

I am glad that hona changed the comp on the motor instead of screwing with the timing on the motor like yamaha did.

also having that third ring on the piston and a larger wrist pin is awesome IMHO they beefed up the motor for the quad i dont think yamie beefed up engine parts, just the gears...(correct me if im wrong)

Having that 3rd piston ring may also make the crf capable of higher compression ratios.Of course they would most definately require full on race gas, like vp MR or better.

I'm really thinkin about gettin one...
:macho

JustRace
09-14-2003, 08:59 PM
Glad to have you back bee, always seem to have good info that is easy to understand. lol:D

edgerat
09-14-2003, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by BeeeRock!
a worked crf motor can have way more then 40hp.

why would you need a different carb on the trx450? throw an exhaust on it and k&n and that carb will make the bike come to life, add in a little porting, shave the head.....

I am glad that hona changed the comp on the motor instead of screwing with the timing on the motor like yamaha did.

also having that third ring on the piston and a larger wrist pin is awesome IMHO they beefed up the motor for the quad i dont think yamie beefed up engine parts, just the gears...(correct me if im wrong)

Having that 3rd piston ring may also make the crf capable of higher compression ratios.Of course they would most definately require full on race gas, like vp MR or better.

I'm really thinkin about gettin one...
:macho

It takes all of 20 minutes to fix the cam timing on the YFZ. It will take a damn site longer than that to change the compression on the TRX. Also, a pipe and a K&N will help with the air but how do you expect the puny CV carb to get enough fuel in there to make serious power? Dont get me wrong I am not hating on the new Honda but some of your comments dont make sense. I would have seriously considered selling my YFZ for a TRX if it hadnt been for the suspension and carb setup on the TRX. Honda relied on some very old technology on those two parts.
Isaac

ATC83
09-15-2003, 08:47 AM
The reason the top pros are transplanting the CRF450 into quads and not the YZ450F motor is that the YZ motocross motor is only a four speed. A four speed is great for motocross but not very good for a quad. The top pros would be using the YZ450F motor if it has a five speed. The Yamaha 450 engine is a far superior engine for a quad because of its power delevery characteristics. the Yamaha 450 engine has a much harder hit and superior over rev as compared to the CRF. These are both characteristics that you need in a quad that has to move much more weight than a dirt bike.

86atc250r
09-15-2003, 10:26 AM
how do you expect the puny CV carb to get enough fuel in there to make serious power?

I seriously doubt the carb they're using is a CV carb - Honda does not have a history of using CV carbs on their sport ATVs, don't know why they'd start now on a model designed to race.

Many Yamaha and Suzuki fans are ASSUMING that the 42mm "Butterfly" carb is a CV model like what is used on the Raptor and LTZ - however, the 400EX, 300EX, 250X, 350X, and many other 4 stroke Hondas use a Keihin "butterfly" carb that is NOT a CV unit.

In the Honda carb, both the butterfly and slide are operated directly by the throttle cable. In a CV carb, the slide is operated by vacuum.

My best guesses as to why they changed carbs for the TRX450R -

Choke - I'm not sure about the YFZ or CRF, but the FCR's I've dealt with do not have a choke system.

Green sticker - also, not sure about the YFZ, but this is a green sticker quad & this carb may contribute to that.

ATC83
09-15-2003, 11:08 AM
I have a YFZ450 and it has an FCR carb, its green sticker leagal and it has a choke. I think the reason they didn't put the FCR carb on the TRX450R is that it is expensive. I know that during the development of the YFZ450 the accounts for Yamaha wanted to not put the FCR carb on the YFZ but the great increase in performance was worth the money.

86atc250r
09-15-2003, 11:33 AM
That's interesting info.. I've seen the enrich circuit in documentation, but not actually on a carb. I hadn't checked to see if the YFZ was equipped..

I don't think it was an expense concern as the retail price of a 40mm FCR thru Honda is only $330, so you know it costs them significantly less than that.

No matter - my TRX450R will be FCR40 Equipped :)

Pro400EXC
09-15-2003, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by ATC83
The reason the top pros are transplanting the CRF450 into quads and not the YZ450F motor is that the YZ motocross motor is only a four speed. A four speed is great for motocross but not very good for a quad. The top pros would be using the YZ450F motor if it has a five speed. The Yamaha 450 engine is a far superior engine for a quad because of its power delevery characteristics. the Yamaha 450 engine has a much harder hit and superior over rev as compared to the CRF. These are both characteristics that you need in a quad that has to move much more weight than a dirt bike.

I don't think that just cause the YZF motor has a snappy like 2stk feel is why it would be better than the Honda...yah sure the honda has the typical 4stk powerband,but so does the drz,and so on,and Doug Gust used the DRZ motor over a YZF,and he seemed to be good on it...Also tim Farr use's the CRF over the YZF...

Also,why does gears matter,i eman the YZF is a motocrosser,and if you use it for motocross....I mena how many times does Farr and Gust hit 5th gear on the track?Prolly not to much,unless its like a 1/4mile straight,and still the YZF does pretty good in those w/ a 4spd..

86atc250r
09-15-2003, 02:26 PM
The top pros would be using the YZ450F motor if it has a five speed. The Yamaha 450 engine is a far superior engine for a quad because of its power delevery characteristics.

If that were the case, you'd see them installing WR450F engines - same engine, 5 speed trans, option of electric or kick...

The fact is, the CRF has awesome power delivery & that's why so many people love it. Power everywhere is almost always better than a peaky engine.

That said, both are great engines - no need splitting hairs over which is "best".

TGW_400ex
09-15-2003, 03:51 PM
did u guys notcie sumthin the 450r isnt sleeved down:eek2: that means it isnt race legal unless u buy a kit:grr: but that means its should have more power than the YFZ:D

09-15-2003, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by TGW_400ex
did u guys notcie sumthin the 450r isnt sleeved down:eek2: that means it isnt race legal unless u buy a kit:grr: but that means its should have more power than the YFZ:D

yea, unless ama changes the rules to 450:eek2:

I mean come on, the supercorss 250 2 stroke bikes race against 450's. I think its odd that the quads are limited to less cc even though they ar epulling twice as much weight.....;)

Guy400
09-15-2003, 04:44 PM
I would fully expect the AMA to change it's rules for the 4-stroke quads. They said last year that if a factory (i.e. Honda or Yamaha) released a 450cc production quad (not a dirtbike hybrid that an aftermarket tuner built) that they would change the rule. In fact, for 2003 the Pro Production limit is 450 already, making the Honda legal for next year's Pro Production class. The Pro, Pro Am and Open Pro Am classes are still at a limit of 440cc's. You can look at the rules here:
http://www.amadirectlink.com/rulebooks/supps/2003/2003ATVMX.pdf

BigAl
09-15-2003, 07:35 PM
I'd like to throw a couple cents in in this debate.
I love this good debate using (mostly) facts, and no temper tantrums.

BTW, I am NOT bashing the Honda, I have not owned anything but hondas for many many years, and have made fun of many Yamaha riders, while fixing their wiring and steering problems on the trail many miles from the truck.


Gust and Farr are riding machines built with unobtanium, and should not be used in any comparison.

The YFZ does use the WR(basically) engine. the only difference in the YZ and WR is one tooth on the exh. cam, one gear in the tranny, and a heavier flywheel to charge a battery and run some lights.

The TRX uses smaller valves than the CRF, and they are steel insead of TI.

If a person wanted to turn each engine into a full bike motor he would need- YFZ
YZ crank
YZ piston
YZ exhaust cam - (I know you can change the timing)
YZ kickstart kit

TRX-
CR cam
CR head ( 1 mm probably isn't worth the effort)
CR valves (a lot of bike guys are going to steel valves anyway)
CR piston
CR carb

The differences there are pretty minor.

raptor_02
10-04-2003, 02:34 PM
i want to start out saying this is a very interesting thread and I'm learning alot from you fellas. I have a question for you engine guys, wouldn't titanium valves make an engine rev faster because they are so much lighter than steel vavles which would make it alot easier for the cam or cam's to work???? I don't know a hole lot about engines but I'm trying to learn so any INFO would be greatly appreciated. Also what exactly is the difference between an Keihin FCR Carb and just a regular Keihin Carb. Could someone also please explain that to me.

Guy400
10-04-2003, 06:25 PM
Yes, a lighter titanium valve will reduce reciprocating mass which aids in higher revving.

RobRacing
10-04-2003, 07:28 PM
I think that the suspension on the TRX isn't that bad. Just becuase it doesn't have a gull wing a-arm doesn't mean they suck. If you look at a YZF it isn't exactly a pure gull wing a-arm because the ball joint is angled like a regular a-arm. Roll and LSR's arems are bent all the way at the shock mount, but then again they are running 19" shocks. I think the TRX will do fine against the YZF stock or beefed up they are still gonna be contenders. I chose the Honda, only because it is different. I am getting mine in January and can't wait!:cool:

Sandgod4
10-05-2003, 10:21 AM
The Honda isn't different. It's has nothing unique about it. What I ride is different. You're buying the Honda, because you like Honda's..:cool:

rtyfz450
10-05-2003, 11:27 AM
for a comparison between the two carbs a cv carb which is what the honda trx450 and the Fcr is what the yfz has. the fcr is superior to the cv in many ways, first off it has a totally differnet type of slide (the slide opens and lets air and fuel mix together and go into the intake chamber(s).) the cv has a butterfly slide the fcr is a downdraft smoothbore flatslide carb. the real difference comes for the jetting and getting it right. The cv will have trouble with mods and you will almost always have a flat spot or a blurb in the powerband even if it is not intentional. The fcr and rs Mikuni are real racer carbs that do not compromise for emissions like the cv does. basically the cv has problems with the airflow and vacuum determining the slide position. The interaction of the slide spring, slide air holes, diaphram, and butterfly valves can be very delicate. this al combines to cause problems once you modify. the Fcr also has an excelerator pump which helps with fuel delivery when it is needed.

Anyway lets face it Honda went cheap and yamaha didn't. the crf engine was designed to use a fcr carb and honda said hmm well that costs too much so lets see how can we make more money hmmm I know get rid of the fcr and put a bigger cv so gulible idiots will think that it is better wow what a good idea!!! :huh

86atc250r
10-05-2003, 11:54 AM
I repeat - The Honda is most likely ****NOT**** using a CV carb. Unlike the other brands, Honda has never used a CV carb on any of their sport oriented quads or 3-wheelers - why would they start with the 450R? - a quad they, themselves have said is intended to replace the 250R.

You are correct that a CV carb like the Raptor, LTZ, DS650, and many utility quads use are not performance carbs by any stretch of the imagination.

However - the carb the Honda will use is very much like the carb on a 400EX - which is also not a CV carb. These carbs directly acutate the butterfly and slide both by throttle cable operation. Although, they don't offer quite the throttle response an FCR does, they do offer MUCH better performance than a CV carb, they are also very reliable and very easy to tune. They also incorporate an accelerator pump.

In contrast, the CV carb operates the butterfly with the cable, but the slide with engine vacuum. This causes tuneability issues, throttle response issues, and unintended slide movement issues (like when landing a jump, the throttle can be "chopped").

If the 450R's carb bothers you that much - you can purchase a 40mm FCR straight from Honda for about $320, then sell the 42 to a 400EX owner as an upgrade. Better hope you never have to replace that FCR on your Yamaha - because they'll charge you around $900 for the 39mm model used in their bike - just like they overchage for practically every other part on the quad.

I wonder if it ever occurred to anyone that Honda may have put the larger carb on to feed the larger demand on the engine from a quad's weight? The 41mm FCR is the largest made and is a street bike carb, not suitable for an OEM off-road application - not enough venting, incorrect accelerator pump sizing, no TPS sensor, etc. So now you're down to the 39 or the 40 MX carbs. If they wanted more than the 40 could deliver they had to go to a different carb series - or have Keihin design a new, larger FCR - which would be very cost prohibitive.

rtyfz450
10-05-2003, 12:05 PM
ohh please the yfz carb is not 900 dollars you are totally exagerating and doing it badly and how do you know that the fcr carb even fits on to the intake manifold of the new trx? you may have to buy more than you think if the trx is soooooo different than the crf. I haven't seen a picture of it yet but I did read from multiple places that the trx is using a cv carb and one was dirtwheels. as for the 400ex carb, I havce one and making the switch to the fcr makes all the difference I will give you the part about easy jetting though it is true;)

86atc250r
10-05-2003, 12:22 PM
You sound pretty sure of yourself... How about you go to partsfiche.com or yamahaoftroy.com and just look up the price of an FCR carb for a YZ450F (they don't list prices for the YFZ yet).

Here, I'll help you (I know many of you kids have a short attention span)... Part number: Y5TA-14101-00-00 - price $855.36

Then go to servicehonda.com and look up the price of a 2003 CRF450 carb. Part Number: 16100-MEB-771 - Price: $338.01

As far as fitment goes - things can't be too far off since the CRF engine originally came with the 40mm FCR. Any person with 1/2 a brain will likely be able to do any fabrication necessary. Especially if a street bike FCR can be as easily fitted to a 400EX (an engine family never intended to wear an FCR). If the intake won't fit, simply buy one for the CRF for $6.13 (part number 16210-MEB-670)

I have a couple 400EX's myself. I also have a couple FCRs - a 39 and a 41. You needn't tell me what the differences are. The FCR does make a throttle response improvement - but we're also talking about changing from a 35.5mm carb to a 39mm FCR.

Do you think going from a 42mm stock carb to a 39/40mm FCR will make as much of a change? I'm thinking probably not. That would be like putting a 33mm FCR on a 400EX.

As far as printed info - dirtwheels is where you're getting your info? You've got to be kidding. Nuff said. I've read in print many times that the 400EX has a CV carb, does this mean it's true - nope (and this was even after it had been out for a while and anyone with any experience/knowledge could easily see that was not true).... Let me guess, the other "multiple places" you've gotten info is from Yamaha forums?

rtyfz450
10-05-2003, 12:47 PM
If you are an idiot that would be were you would get a carb for but no I can get a stocker which is very unlikely to replace for under 500 bucks and why would i not just buy the one from service honda for 320 duh! same carb and plus I would get rid of torrs. and how can you presume to know what is on the bike and what will fit and what could work that is a bs speculation sounds to me like you are seeing things in a short, childish way.

rtyfz450
10-05-2003, 01:14 PM
The whole point that I was trying to make is that honda did not supply the proper carb for the engine and that is that. yes the carb makes a huge difference and you should know this from experience. 42 mm doesn't mean crap it is all about how the fuel system delivers the fuel and the fcr does it alot better than anything else that I have had experience with. the difference between the stock 400ex carb and the fcr is not about mm it is about how the carb works. actually it is oversized for a stock 400 but if you modify that same 400 with a big bore kit, cam, stroke it, and exhaust and filter mods it helps in conjunction with these mods.

86atc250r
10-05-2003, 01:20 PM
I have no idea what you were trying to say in the post just before your last, but I assume it was supposed to be some sort of slam.

What I could discern is that you now believe that Yamaha sells the carb for $855, but you would use the Honda carb as a replacement - I certainly hope the TPS sensor works in the same fashion & the rest of the carb's attributes match Yamaha's offering (it's not just the "same carb" minus TORS). If it does all work, I am happy to be the one that helped you :)

How can I presume to know what Honda will use for a carb? It's quite simple. Experience and history. What are you using to base your comments on? What you saw in dirtwheels (a publication that has printed false info many times in the past), a half understanding of the inner workings of these carbs, and what your buddies on the Yamaha forums are saying?

Time will tell who's right. If you've come here to tell us how bad the Honda is and how wonderful the YFZ is to somehow justify your ride, no need to. We all know the YFZ is a decent machine & no one's criticizing your ride - just open your mind a little and realize that the YFZ (just like the new Honda) may not be the best choice for everyone & the new Honda isn't going to be vastly inferior to the Yamaha, if inferior at all.
-----

As for your latest post - Yes, the 39mm FCR is an improvement over the stock 400EX carb.

I suppose you know carburetors and engines better than the largest engine manufacturer in the world? Maybe they should hire you to tell them what the proper carb application is for this new quad.

From what I've seen from your posts so far, you only have a very basic understanding of carburetors.

Comparing the FCR use on a modified 400ex to the stock carb is apples to oranges. Put a 33mm FCR on a stock 400EX and see which works better.

It's pointless to argue at this point. You said the 450R will have a CV carb - I pointed out that is most likely incorrect. At this point, that's about all there is to argue --- come December or January when we get our hands on 450Rs, then we'll be able to see how good or bad this carb really is.

Sandgod4
10-05-2003, 02:00 PM
Good points Gabe. For those who question Gabes knowledge you are barking up the wrong tree. Listen to Gabe. He knows his shtuff. He had done EFI maps for Cannondales as well as converting motors w/ carbs to EFI.. Although Gabe I must admit the Yammy is waaaay good and I don't see the Honda making more power. My bro has a YFZ w/ cam mod and pipe and I have seen for myself what it can do on a weekend basis..

AlaskaSpeed
10-05-2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by Sandgod4
Good points Gabe. For those who question Gabes knowledge you are barking up the wrong tree. Listen to Gabe. He knows his shtuff. He had done EFI maps for Cannondales as well as converting motors w/ carbs to EFI.. Although Gabe I must admit the Yammy is waaaay good and I don't see the Honda making more power. My bro has a YFZ w/ cam mod and pipe and I have seen for myself what it can do on a weekend basis..

Have to agree with ya....Gabe has only good intentions with any posts he makes. I have been a member of his 400ex email group for years and he has helped me out many times.

I too would be surprised by any quad that can make the kind of power that my YFZ makes as well. Man, these things are just plain wicked. Did Buddah do the cam mod before the pipe or after? I am curious in the difference it made either way. I am thinking that it is my next step as well.....JIM

Sandgod4
10-05-2003, 02:20 PM
He did the cam mod before the pipe since pipes weren't out yet.. I never did ask him what the difference was on the pipe. He took the peashooter out the first day he owned it..

rtyfz450
10-05-2003, 04:45 PM
86atc250r,
ok you have a good point I don't know how the hell it will work and I am sorry that you think I am getting this stuff of some yamaha forum but I am not. I am just stating facts and not trying a pathetic attempt to "slam you" I believe one way and you believe another. I do not however think that the yfz is superior or inferior to the trx450r I have no idea. I just think they should of put a god damn fcr on that thing and am dissapointed in them for not doing it. I am not brand loyal, our family owns 3 different brands. I however believe I have stated nothing but facts and I am not a carb expert that is a wannabe honda employee i just think as you do, they should add a fcr like you would if you got the bike. anyway I have one question what have I said that is half *****ed in understanding of carburation? I believe that I have stated my facts and what is wrong with what I have said? The only point that we disagree on is what carb is in the 450r that is it. don't insult my intelligence without explaining why you think I don't know what I am talking about not just "because what you have read in the 3 post that I made"

rtyfz450
10-05-2003, 04:49 PM
one more thing I do not believe in buying a stock carb for 855 that is ludicris and I am not a rich chump to spend that much on something that should not be that expensive. I do however know how to switch the carb in my yfz to the 40 fcr that came in the crf because I called my dad up and asked him:devil: he is a master mechanic and has worked with bikes his whole life.

raptor_02
10-06-2003, 12:46 PM
now that's what I was looking for fellas :p You guys keep arguing and I'm going to know more than both of you about carbs. As far as comparing the YFZ to the 450R, I think these two quads are going to be very close in every aspect of racing. But I'm going with the Yamaha. I may be making a mistake but it has a lower seat height, can be made lighter, already comes with a FCR CARB and a high compression piston, has more suspension travel, and in my opinion it looks better. I do know that most people plan on changing alot of parts on theres but my plan is to throw some 18 inch tires on the YFZ, a pipe and some nerfs and start racing. I think with that setup I can be very competitive for the next year or so until I move up in classes and then I may invest in some a-arms and stuff. But bottom line I think the YFZ comes way more race ready for only 400 bucks more than the trax and that's why I'm going with the Yamaha. But which ever machine anyone else decides to go for will be a good choice. It's like that author said in ATVSPORT, Honda and Yamaha as of now are the only one's that have the technology to make a quad of this calibper. So both quads are awesome and both are an excelent choice.

TGW_400ex
10-06-2003, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by raptor_02
now that's what I was looking for fellas :p You guys keep arguing and I'm going to know more than both of you about carbs. As far as comparing the YFZ to the 450R, I think these two quads are going to be very close in every aspect of racing. But I'm going with the Yamaha. I may be making a mistake but it has a lower seat height, can be made lighter, already comes with a FCR CARB and a high compression piston, has more suspension travel, and in my opinion it looks better. I do know that most people plan on changing alot of parts on theres but my plan is to throw some 18 inch tires on the YFZ, a pipe and some nerfs and start racing. I think with that setup I can be very competitive for the next year or so until I move up in classes and then I may invest in some a-arms and stuff. But bottom line I think the YFZ comes way more race ready for only 400 bucks more than the trax and that's why I'm going with the Yamaha. But which ever machine anyone else decides to go for will be a good choice. It's like that author said in ATVSPORT, Honda and Yamaha as of now are the only one's that have the technology to make a quad of this calibper. So both quads are awesome and both are an excelent choice.

Ya exactly Yamaha and Honda have always been on top Kawi/uki just got back into the game and honda and yamaha passed them up:p

10-18-2003, 07:13 AM
Originally posted by AlaskaSpeed
I too would be surprised by any quad that can make the kind of power that my YFZ makes as well. Man, these things are just plain wicked. Did Buddah do the cam mod before the pipe or after? I am curious in the difference it made either way. I am thinking that it is my next step as well.....JIM

What? No useless (off-topic) pics of your Yamaha this time?

I'm suprized.

Fact is...a YFZ will NOT handle anywhere's near as good as a 250R in stock form. It's truly funny to hear you guys say this or that is better or faster. WE HAVE NO IDEA...most of the people that made the trade to YFZ's from thier R's did it because the YFZ has some ballz. And a lot of them are regrettin' it. Some of the YFZ owners I know who made the switch say that they miss thier R's and made a HUGE mistake. NOTHING CORNERS LIKE AN R....and that is a FACT. Stock chassis for stock chassis...

The YFZ's have had thier share of starter/battery problems...your best bet would be to take that junk off before you get stuck having to get towed with it. Then...better start workin out when you wanna kickstart that YFZ....lmao.....they start real hard. I know 2 guys who bought the kickstart kit...they both sold them because they were too hard to start most of the time....lol....there goes the "lighter" thing...again....Yamaha cut corners...thank Yamaha for that "catch 22" (damned if you do, damned if you don't) situation...

It's gonna be so so funny to hear you YFZ guys whinin' when that new 450R comes out.....denial will get ya's nowhere either...

Your problem is this....you have a YAMAHA....and it my friend will always be just that....a YAMAHA....LMAO. They never could really get it right. Just close.

AlaskaSpeed
10-18-2003, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by HRC450R
What? No useless (off-topic) pics of your Yamaha this time?

I'm suprized.

Fact is...a YFZ will NOT handle anywhere's near as good as a 250R in stock form. It's truly funny to hear you guys say this or that is better or faster. WE HAVE NO IDEA...most of the people that made the trade to YFZ's from thier R's did it because the YFZ has some ballz. And a lot of them are regrettin' it. Some of the YFZ owners I know who made the switch say that they miss thier R's and made a HUGE mistake. NOTHING CORNERS LIKE AN R....and that is a FACT. Stock chassis for stock chassis...

The YFZ's have had thier share of starter/battery problems...your best bet would be to take that junk off before you get stuck having to get towed with it. Then...better start workin out when you wanna kickstart that YFZ....lmao.....they start real hard. I know 2 guys who bought the kickstart kit...they both sold them because they were too hard to start most of the time....lol....there goes the "lighter" thing...again....Yamaha cut corners...thank Yamaha for that "catch 22" (damned if you do, damned if you don't) situation...

It's gonna be so so funny to hear you YFZ guys whinin' when that new 450R comes out.....denial will get ya's nowhere either...

Your problem is this....you have a YAMAHA....and it my friend will always be just that....a YAMAHA....LMAO. They never could really get it right. Just close.

You lost me as soon as you spouted your brand loyal bs, lemmings like you are humorous at best....you keep riding red...and I'll just keep riding quads......

http://home.gci.net/~jbfrench/PICT0038.JPG :rolleyes:

Sandgod4
10-18-2003, 10:56 AM
I'll agree w/ Alaska. I don't even own a YFZ and I'll have to say on paper the Honda's specs come up short. The YFZ hits like a ton of bricks and handles great.. I used to own 5 250r's. Maybe before you spout off about Honda and your brand loyalty you should go ride one. Brand loyalty, go figure!!

Got Huevos?
10-18-2003, 11:44 AM
Honda Will OWN Yamaha.


nuf said.



















and yamaha people if your here just to try and praise your mistake, i mean the YZF then your in the wrong place. go to bluetraxx.:blah:

TGW_400ex
10-18-2003, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by AlaskaSpeed
You lost me as soon as you spouted your brand loyal bs, lemmings like you are humorous at best....you keep riding red...and I'll just keep riding quads......

http://home.gci.net/~jbfrench/PICT0038.JPG :rolleyes:

That pic looks a lil dark it would look better with some bright colors like RED:p

dirtriderex
10-18-2003, 09:00 PM
This is getting retarded, of course you YFZ owners are going to say it's better. I think you guys are scared the 450r will kick the living shiz out of your yammi's.:macho

RobRacing
10-20-2003, 10:21 AM
I think everyone should just quit whinning about how the yammi is going to spank the honda or vis-versa. Or how the yammi looks better on paper. Just get what you want to get and if your friend beats you with a yammi and your on the 450R or vis-versa then who cares. Just be glad you can have as good as a machine as these two are and leave at that. I am getting a 450R because I like it, and others might disagree but that doesn't matter because I like it. Everyone needs to look at it that way and maybe you will understand.

rtyfz450
10-20-2003, 04:13 PM
to the last 2 posts, both of you need to calm down. It is only a forum. Everyone can give their own opinion and this is where you can voice it. don't be upset because people are comparing the specs, who cares. Don't read so far into it.If you don't like it don't read it your choice. I do agree that everyone should get what they want but everone should also have the freedom to say what they think about them also. Just like you have the right to post about how you don't like it:devil:

dirtriderex
10-20-2003, 09:06 PM
Yeah you are right. the YFZ is a great machine and the Honda probably will be too. lets just leave it at that and get along:D

Evan
10-21-2003, 01:08 PM
Correct me if Im wrong-but how or why would you put TPS on a CV carb?

According to ATV Sport-the TRX carb is a "butterfly type" 42mm Round slide carb, which looks simliar to the XR650s carb. The performance difference between the 42mm and the FCR is negligible, safety was an issue-something to do with single throttle cables vs dual throttle cables-NOT PRICE!

Have you seen a raptor after a season of racing?-Have fun replacing your frames on the yfz after one season of racing-along with all the other nuts and bolts that fall out along the way.

ATC83
10-21-2003, 02:28 PM
If the butterfly carb on the TRX450 was better than the FCR Honda would have put it on the CRF450. The fact of the matter is that Honda didn't put an FCR carb on the TRX450 to save money. I don't know why you think people could get hurt by dual throtle cables. I've never been hurt by mine and I'm not afraid of getting hurt by them in the future. Instead of directing your anger at people on this forum why don't you direct it at Honda for cheaping out on the TRX450. At least Yamaha had the guts to build a true closed coarse racing machine. I'll bet that Tim Farrs TRX450 is going to have an FCR carb on it and I'll bet he's not afraid of getting hurt by the dual throtle cables but I'm sure he will be happy about the performance they offer.

Evan
10-21-2003, 03:24 PM
Do you read? Does it say up there the 42mm was better? it doesnt-it said the diff in performance was negligible (means very little difference) Honda does not belive in putting 2 throttle cables on an ATV

I guess you know more than Hondas offroad coordinator:rolleyes:

dirtriderex
10-21-2003, 08:06 PM
Put him in his place Evan:D

Pahrump
10-21-2003, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by BeeeRock!


I am glad that hona changed the comp on the motor instead of screwing with the timing on the motor like yamaha did.

also having that third ring on the piston and a larger wrist pin is awesome IMHO they beefed up the motor for the quad i dont think yamie beefed up engine parts, just the gears...(correct me if im wrong)


:macho

Well yamaha did change more than just the timing and gears, they also beefed up the wrist pin for more strength since the quads put more stres on the crank and rod than the bikes do cause of the extra hook the quads can acheive.


[i]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by HRC450R


The YFZ's have had thier share of starter/battery problems...your best bet would be to take that junk off before you get stuck having to get towed with it. Then...better start workin out when you wanna kickstart that YFZ....lmao.....they start real hard. I know 2 guys who bought the kickstart kit...they both sold them because they were too hard to start most of the time....lol....there goes the "lighter" thing...again....Yamaha cut corners...thank Yamaha for that "catch 22" (damned if you do, damned if you don't) situation...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Well nobody has bought a "Kit" cause they are not availiable yet, they may have bought misc parts off a bike but the "Kit" from yammy will be ready in Nov., and as far as getting it towed cause the battery died, it is a standard trans so push or pull starting does work.

All this about which is better is dumb, I waited to see the specs of the Honda and was not impressed plus I was in heat for a new quad so I bought the YFZ, now this does not mean I think the Yammy will walk all over the Honda but I do think Yamaha dit a homerun this time, and who's to say Honda did not also. They just hit theirs after the game was already over.

Scott

EvilEwok
10-21-2003, 09:18 PM
-holds up a flag for Gabe- We Want Gabe! We Want Gabe!! :p

86atc250r
10-22-2003, 10:49 AM
They just hit theirs after the game was already over.

:confused:

It's statements like these that leave me confused. Why do you believe that? Is there only room for one modern performance ATV in the marketplace? I certainly hope not.

Using that logic, one could say, Yamaha hit their "home run" in retirement, 14 years after the SEASON was over.

It's become fashionable for YFZ owners & other Yamaha fans to criticize Honda for waiting - however you didn't see them critizing Yamaha for waiting 14 years to "answer" the 250R, or 5 years to "answer" the 400EX (which routinely spanks the other Yamaha quads at any form of racing other than drag).

What I've found is there are a lot of people out there that are Suzuki, Kawasaki, and Yamaha fans that rode Hondas because they were the only machines competitive for so many years. They raced and won on these quads, but quitely still maintained their brand loyalty to the others - now that there are beginning to be other reasonable choices, many of them are now turning against Honda and post a lot of negativity toward the new model.

I've even seen this from people "in the industry" that post on the net.

It's kinda funny actually when you think about it. Friggen wagon jumpers.

6 months from now, no one will care which quad came out first. Yamaha's rush to market may also come back to bite them - it might not. Yamaha's engineering, quality, and reliability are always suspect, Honda's almost never is.

Comparing manufacturer published specs as apples to apples is not a good idea - there are no standards set for measuring any parameters on the quads - this means the manufacturers are able to measure weight, seat height, width, gnd clearance, etc as they wish - which can make for very uncomparable specifications.

Take for instance the LTZ400 - going by the published specs, it's lighter and lower than a 400EX, it the real world the exact opposite is true.

Those that think Yamaha was able to build the YFZ the same weight as the TRX450R, but yet include E-start and a charging system, are mistaken unless they saved weight in a less favorable area. Time will tell. First reports are that the YFZ weighs MUCH more than Yamaha claims.

And no, the carb on the 450R will not be a CV carb - Evan is correct in what he said.

EvilEwok
10-22-2003, 11:04 AM
Oh slam!:o

rtyfz450
10-22-2003, 06:08 PM
I don't entirly agree 86atc250r,

if you look at the specs on the 2 dirt bikes, where these engines are derived from, the yfz is just as light and the honda has an aluminium frame. Yes yamaha saves weight in the engine department by adding weight saving features such as magnisium cases and overall the engine probably has less material than the honda 450. But I do not see a disadvantage since yamaha has been running these engines without major problems for over six years. I do believe that honda is very reliable but that doesn't mean that the yfz is not. as for the bandwagon stuff, I have ridden only hondas my whole life and this is the first non-honda I have owned. I have always thought that honda has had good products but the yfz just looked like something that is right for me and I think that others have done the same.

as for the comment from evan, my yfz has not lost any bolt and has been very reliable, don't presume to know how the bike will stay together just because the raptor had problems. That is just like me saying the trx is a peice of junk and the swing arm will crack because some of the 400ex swingarms cracked. what evidence do you have until the reliablity of the quad is tested over time.

one more thing then I will let it be, I may look like I am defending my quad or yamaha but I could care less about brand loyalty I believe that whoever makes what is best for me and my riding style is the quad that I will buy.

87250r88
10-22-2003, 07:18 PM
IF the YFZ turns out to be a faster, better handling and more reliable ATV than the TRX it will be the first time Yamaha has been able to compete with Honda in the ATV performance market. Then again IF my aunt had balls she would be my uncle!

rtyfz450
10-22-2003, 07:47 PM
lol, ok you got me there.
i have a question though, Have you ridden a yfz and if you have how did you like it?
honest opion please:devil:

87250r88
10-22-2003, 08:13 PM
Yes, I rode a YFZ. It is the fastest , best handling ATV that Yamaha ever built. I liked it a lot.

rtyfz450
10-22-2003, 08:25 PM
glad you liked it and I too believe it is the best that yamaha has come to the table with. We shall see if honda can counter and beat it with the 450r

87250r88
10-22-2003, 08:54 PM
I ordered the Honda because I don't need or want electric start .

The availability of parts and ease of maintenance on a Honda has always been better IMO (chain adjustment, air filter maintenance/design and fender removal to name a few).Honda's reliability has always been second to none . I wouldn't expect anything less with the 450R.

Honda has a proven track record of performance , handling and reliability.

rtyfz450
10-22-2003, 10:36 PM
I hope you are happy with your new bike and make sure to post about how it is when you get it:devil:

86atc250r
10-23-2003, 12:21 AM
The Yamaha engine does not weigh significantly less than the Honda engine - compare the CRF450R to a WR450 and you'll get an idea.

You can't take the weight of the YZ450F as a reference because it does not have e-start, it does not have 5th gear, and does not have a charging system or battery - like the YFZ450 does.

The aluminum frame of the CRF450R does not make a significant weight difference in the bikes because the frame has to be constructed more heavy than a steel frame to hold up (just like the cannondale bikes and quads - no significant weight advantage there either because the frame had to be constructed more heavily) - all in all, maybe a couple lbs are saved with the aluminum frame..... Maybe...

Burl Swift
10-23-2003, 10:57 AM
Not a response to any one person in this thread.

I really find brand loyalty funny. I do not own a quad nor have I ever, but I plan to shortly. I currently ride with two friends who both have quads, one is a Banshee and one is a Predator. They have been nice enough to let me ride each one to get a better feel for what I want in a quad. Its been rather helpful.

I have not once seen either machine break down, nor have I ever heard one of my friends bad talk any of the machines. They often ride with someone who has a Z400 and the don't have anything bad to say about that bike either.

I visit almost every quad website I can, this one, Bluetraxx, YFZCentral, Z400Central, and a few other ones. One thing I can't get over is how you guys all seem to try to bash each other over what brand 4 wheeler you own. I often wonder if this is an internet only thing or if its something that you guys do in real life as well. If you sitting at the starting line and your next to a guy on a different quad then you do you laugh and point a finger? I doubt it. Do you tell them their on a piece of crap? I doubt it.

I'm trying to learn about every brand of sport quad and about all the pro's and con's. And although I'm listening to all the information you guys post on these websites I'm not trying to buy into it too much. Because on every one of the sites that I visit the situations are basically the same. The Yamaha guys bash the Honda/Susuki/Kawasaki/whatever guys, and the Honda guys bash the Yamaha/Susuki/Kawasaki/whatever guys, and so on.

I know one thing, no matter what quad I decide to spend my money on I know that I can call my buddies up and say "hey man, lets go riding", and I wont catch any flack about what colors are between my legs. And I'll never question them as well. Its all about fun.

Burl Swift
10-23-2003, 10:59 AM
Doh! Sorry for the spelling errors. :(

Honda_Racer_78
11-01-2003, 12:07 AM
Yesterday I had a blast riding the yfz! My nextdoor neighbor owns a Raptor, DS650, and the new yfz, I left with them riding all day and had a blast! First off I wanna say the YFZ was the most amazing quad I have evr ridin! Its like a diet Raptor, if your a yfz owner you know what I am talkin about. Quick as hell, and the handling is snappy as could be. The new TRX will have its hands full, but if I know Honda they'll be able to hold their own out their.
I also loved riding the Raptor, up the hills I would give my friend a big faceful of dirt while he was on his yfz, I think the yfz could use a pipe and other mods before it has the top end to keep up with the big boys. I didn't get a chance to ride the DS650, but I sure saw the back of it a lot. When I was on the yfz I just couldn't hold on with The Raptor and DS650. But once it gets a few mods I'm sure it'll be cool. I'm really impressed with the three quads power because I own a 400EX. I'm not used to that "on the fly acceleration". But I love my 400 and wouldn't trade it for a yfz, I just don't trust the reliablity of the yfz just yet. All in all the day went ok, but my buddy was pissed when I found out that his front left a-arm was cracked! Whats up with that yamaha? The thing is brand new too, he ordered a new one though. I think it cracked when we were jumping off a double we found. Oh well, sh** happens, It was a fun day though, Yamaha did a great job on the yfz, keep ridin!

Honda_Racer_78
11-01-2003, 12:15 AM
Burl swift, thats cool man, no one should bash any other brands, We all ride quads, we need to ban together and fight the dirt bike riders! Just kidding, but seriously I would go with a yfz or the new trx, they seem to be the top of the game right now.

AlaskaTRX
11-01-2003, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by HRC450R
What? No useless (off-topic) pics of your Yamaha this time?

a YFZ will NOT handle anywhere's near as good as a 250R in stock form. NOTHING CORNERS LIKE AN R....and that is a FACT. Stock chassis for stock chassis...



WRONG!!! Live in the now, man! I owned an '89 250R, and I've ridden Jim's YFZ, and yeah, that Honda is owned... :rolleyes:

With that said, I still really miss my 250R...

But, back to the topic at hand, I agree mostly with Gabe on his analysis of the 450R carb. I think that it is more of a penny-pinching than performance based decision on the carb choice for the TRX. I'm sure '05 will bring changes for both the blue and red as the machines become more competitive with each other performance and price-wise.

Also, how many of you think that Farr will NOT roll up to the starting gate with a FCR carb on his factory Honda next season?!?!

Guy400
11-01-2003, 08:36 PM
I heard Farr is removing the airbox altogether and is running a velocity stack right off the carb instead:eek2:

AlaskaSpeed
11-02-2003, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by Guy400
I heard Farr is removing the airbox altogether and is running a velocity stack right off the carb instead:eek2:

Guy....
I can't wait to see what the official ride of the Ohio Mafia is going to be!!! Get some spy photos from outside the undisclosed location of "The Compound"......:devil:

Guy400
11-02-2003, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by AlaskaSpeed
Guy....
I can't wait to see what the official ride of the Ohio Mafia is going to be!!! Get some spy photos from outside the undisclosed location of "The Compound"......:devil: :cuss:

AtvMxRider
11-02-2003, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by AlaskaSpeed
Guy....
I can't wait to see what the official ride of the Ohio Mafia is going to be!!! Get some spy photos from outside the undisclosed location of "The Compound"......:devil:


:eek: ok Guy spill it! What's Jim talking about?

Guy400
11-02-2003, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by AtvMxRider
:eek: ok Guy spill it! What's Jim talking about? Hit me up on the IM tonight:D