Will offset wheels have the same effect as 2" A-arms?

[RIDER11X]

Got 2+3 offset wheels now. Will this make my shocks seem softer like if I added +2" A-arms? :confused2

Thanks!!!:cool:

[bmw500hp]

Originally posted by RIDER11X
Got 2+3 offset wheels now. Will this make my shocks seem softer like if I added +2" A-arms? :confused2

Thanks!!!:cool:

I would say yes , but technically this question would be an excellent one for Santo Derisi.

He is addressing something of that nature now in his "Ask Santo" Thread. :cool:

[RIDER11X]

Thanks, yea anyone wondering bout this can go there.:cool:

[boogiechile]

No it will not. Offset wheels have no effect on the leverage on the shock. Plus 2 a arms will change the leverage however.

[seven]

They will soften your shocks a bit but not as much as +2 arms.

[wilkin250r]

They don't change the leverage of the arm at all. The only reason it could possible be softer is the flexing of the wheel, the +2 inch rims will flex a little more than the stock rims.

[cdalejef]

Yes, they do put more leverage on your shocks in turn making them a little softer. They will not make them as soft as +2" a-arms however! Offset wheels are not a substitute for wider arms. The will have a negative effect on steering!

Originally posted by Jeff@QuadShop
The will have a negative effect on steering!
can you explain this even more thoroughly ?

[AtvMxRider]

Originally posted by "2-R's Rider"
can you explain this even more thoroughly ?

:)

i was not trying to make fun of the statement ( or maybe the word was used wrong)....I mean explain more about it

[seven]

I know it has somthing to do with the way the rim puts pressure to the calipers that couses it to push threw the corners. You can get used to it or change your tire combo to equal it out. I believe its called SI in alignment terms. If I remember right. The best way is with +2 arms but a 3-2 rim will work it just has some draw backs.

[AtvMxRider]

Originally posted by "2-R's Rider"
i was not trying to make fun of the statement ( or maybe the word was used wrong)....I mean explain more about it

I wasn't making fun of you Dave I just wanted to know also.

its cool.///
but this stuff about the caliper & pressure aint makin much sense to me :confused2

[AtvMxRider]

Me either :ermm: .

The rim offsets will change the steering axis inclination (SAI) which will have a negative effect on steering. Stock offset is about 4:1 and the spindles are designed to have the right SAI with that offset. What SAI means is that if you drew a line thru the center of the ball joints while looking at them from the front, it should hit the ground at the same place a line drawn straight down thru the center of the rim does. This is why the spindle is made with the top ball joint closer to the frame than the lower joint. If you change the offset of the wheels these two lines no longer intersect at the ground. The more the difference the more the leverage that the tires have against you (the handlebars) when any size bump is hit. This leads to more bump steer. Changing from a 4:1 to 3:2 rim adds one inch of leverage to the SAI. A 2:3 rim which many people use to widen the front adds two inches of leverage and more bump steer. So a 4:1 wheel gets the SAI where it was designed to be with the spindle to give you better contol. This better control can easily overide the advantage of a wider front from the 2:3 wheels, so wider is not always better and that is how the offsets will lead to negative handling. You are better off with a narrower offset and wider a arms and not to use the offsets as a temporary "fix"

[cdalejef]

Its hard to put it on paper but I'll give it a shot.
Its like putting more leverage at the wheels. Meaning that you get more oversteer and more negative feedback through the bars. Like every bump you hit is exaggerated.

I know that sounds dumb but I can say it better than I can type it

[86atc250r]

Jeff - I'm very surprised to see someone with your experience & in your position say what you just said about shock leverage.

Please explain your theory on how offset wheels can increase leverage at the shock without increasing wheel travel - because increasing front offset certainly does not increase wheel travel like what extended control arms do.

You are correct though that it will negatively affect steering. This is due to the fact that you're moving the centerline of the front tire away from the line that runs vertically thru the ball joints (SAI as explained above).

It will not increase the leverage applied upon the shock, however, it will increase the leverage upon the spindle and ball joints. The ball joints in effect create a hinge that prevents the wheel offset from being able to leverage against the shock.

Simply put - extended control arms do not affect scrub and thus do not affect leverage upon the steering knuckle and ultimately the rider, they do, however affect leverage against the shock and increase wheel travel.

Offset wheels on the other hand do not affect shock leverage or wheel travel, however they do alter scrub (due to moving the tire centerline out from where SAI meets the ground) and do leverage more against the steering knuckle and ultimately, the rider....

Just like the "hinge" at the frame (control arm mount) terminates the inside of the lever (control arm), the "hinge" that is the ball joint terminates the outer most point of the lever. Forces beyond these points do not affect the load placed upon the shock, they do place their loads elsewhere though....

Keep in mind if you search the web for info on this subject, that many automotive front end designs *will* increase leverage at the spring/shock if you increase offset.

This is because many automotive front end designs are essentially single control arm fronts which eliminate the "hinge" at the outside of the arm, which then in turn, extends the "lever" when you run wider offsets....

Hopefully that all makes sense......

[cdalejef]

I didn't say they changed the travel, I said they will change the leverage on the shock, making them softer.

[86atc250r]

That would go against the whole theory of the operation of a lever - to make the load easier to "lift" (i.e. compress the shock), you must increase the length of the lever, which in turn increases the distance the end of the lever must move to cause "X" amount of movement to the shock.

There are no free lunches... If you want to decrease the amount of force it takes to move the shock X distance, you must be willing to move the end of the control arm farther to do so. Offset wheels do not move the end of the control arm further.

Think of how a wrench works - the longer the wrench, the easier to turn the bolt- however, you are also moving your hand further to do it than with a short wrench (i.e. increasing the travel).

Did you carefully read my last post? I spent some time on it trying to make the hows and whys of it all make more sense...

[cdalejef]

You lost me!

[AtvMxRider]

Originally posted by Jeff@QuadShop
You lost me!

:uhoh:

[Bad Habit]

86atc, I'm with you on this one. I've got the visual in my head.

Say you have a 8", 10" and 12" wrench. Put your hand only 6" down the handle on all three wrenches, and the extra leverage never exists with the longer wrenches because the hinge or pressure being applied is at the same spot (6") on all of them. This is the same with our situation because the pressure is being applied to the same spot (ball joint) no matter what the wheel offset is. The extra width of the offset wheel is the same as the extra bit of wrench handle sticking out of your hand.

Boy, that sounded good in my head but after typing it, I might have muddied up the water even more.:D

Originally posted by rowlrag
Allright dip****z, lets put it into real words! More offset wheel WILL make the front end feel a bit softer, but it will not give you more travel. If you want wide cheap get diff wheels either way won't kill you!

:eek: :uhoh:

[mcmike]

Extended A-arms change the geometery,ie, suspention travel while offset wheels add a little more stability in the front end, making it a little more difficult to steer, but the quad won't tip as easily. :ermm:

[86atc250r]

Rowlrag - please explain your math.... Simply calling us names and saying "it does make the front softer" doesn't cut it.

We (and many others all over the world) would like to know how to multiply the force you apply against a load using a lever without increasing the distance of the input force. If this has been figured out, it will re-write the laws of physics & eliminate a lot of limitations in our world.

Back in the real world...
It's also likely that a given rider will actually be slower with a wider offset front end than with a properly setup front end due to increased steering input.

By being "cheap" with offset wheels you can actually slow yourself down, as well as improving your likelihood of a crash, a wrist injury, and equipment failure.

Yellow416ex - your explanation made sense... I think what these guys are not understanding is that the lever ends at the ball joints, not where the wheel is at.

[seven]

The distance from where the shock bolts up and were the tire hits the ground is greater with a 3-2 wheel off set Putting more pressure against the shock and making it softer. And you dont gain wheel travel with after maket A Arms unless they are long travel. Even then the stopping point going up is the same they gain in the down stroke.

[86atc250r]

Woah there, you just exceeded the number of incorrect statements allowed in one paragraph....

All I can say (without writing another novel) is go back and study what's been posted and/or study front end design more before posting anything else on the subject :)

[seven]

Incorrect in your oppinion. Take a tape measure out and put a set of 4-1 rims on and then a set of 3-2 on and measure from were the shock mounts on the a arm to were the tire touches the ground. When you are trying to loosen a bolt you dont grab a wrench as close to the bolt do you? Thats becouse the farther away the more leverage//////////// They do not make as much of a difrence as a real +2 arm but it is softer.:cool:

[86atc250r]

Read the posts above. The leverage does ***not*** extend past the ball joints in a double control arm setup like what we're talking about. Thus it does not matter where the wheel is located (to the shock).

And yes, a standard +2 control arm ***does*** extend wheel travel, just like a longer wrench has to move farther at the end than a shorter one to turn the bolt the same distance.

You ***can not*** increase the leverage of the system without increasing the distance the end of the control arm moves. This is not my rule, it's one of the laws of physics.

Please explain why - if an offset wheel does affect shock load, it does not affect it as much as an equally extended control arm. You can't because it doesn't.

[seven]

I have a set of 4-1 rims and a set of 3-2 rims and given the choice I like the 4-1 rims better. I am not going to discuss it any more. I have both sets of rims and I have +2 arms I have tried it all and know what it does. I agree with Jeff@quadshop You can agree with the other. And a 3-2 rim isnt a FULL +2 wider. Its actually only 1 inch wider then stock. +2 A arms are 2inches wider then stock. More leverage. Thats why they make the shocks softer then a 3-2 rim:D

[seven]

And as far as extending wheel travel. It only extends it on the down stroke becouse it will hit the frame before you get any more travel on the up stroke. Unless you run 25 inch front tires to give you the extra frame to ground clearance. Thats why you only gain wheel travel on the down stroke.

[rowlrag]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 86atc250r
[B]Rowlrag - please explain your math.... Simply calling us names and saying "it does make the front softer" doesn't cut it.
Not calling anyone names only trying to put humor in another argumentive post. Your explanation is very good, and sorry for the comment i deleted it. I have run both wheels with stock arms and 4-1 with+1 arms and like the 3-2 wheel over the 4-1 on stock arms. Where you race?:)

[seven]

Its not a arguement its a debate. I am working on being a master debate.

[86atc250r]

Seven, whether or not you gain any actual useable travel is beside the point. The point is that +whatever control arms do affect leverage applied upon the shock because they do change the distance the end of the arm travels in respect to the shock mount (given that the shock mount location has not been moved).

Rowlrag - no problem... I race in Missouri and Arkansas. We'll have a team at the 12hrs again this year as well.

[QuadJunkies]

Well, now that Im totally confused:o :p All I know is that I just bought a 2/4 offset rim for my 400 ex for flatrack cause I didnt have the $$ for A-arms this year, I hope this set up works for me. I run them on my sand duning tires and feel WAY better than the stock set up was..But Ive never raced with them yet.....This is a good topic but lets not fight about it guys....:(

[AtvMxRider]

:ermm:

[seven]

I understand what you are saying. And i will agree, But the actual shock travel remains the same for the most part until you get into aftermarket stuff then you can change it up.

[cdalejef]

Originally posted by seven
I understand what you are saying. And i will agree, But the actual shock travel remains the same for the most part until you get into aftermarket stuff then you can change it up. Exactly! Travel is limited by the stroke of the shock! No matter what offset you have the shock travel remains the same!

[86atc250r]

Exactly my point boys... When you use offset wheels the wheel travel does not change at all --- thus load upon the shock does not change.

When you go to extended control arms, no matter the design (given the shock mount remains the same), wheel travel does increase (whether usable or not). In other words, for every inch the wheel moves, the shock actually moves a little less, thus increasing the leverage (mechanical advantage) upon the shock.

Junkies - offset wheels will increase the width of the quad, which will increase it's stability, much like exteneded control arms. just be aware of increased steering feedback and additional stress on tierods, ball joints and the spindles. Not too big of a deal on the flat track and in some cases in the dunes. In the trails or anywhere rough, it causes problems.

[cdalejef]

That is what I was saying all along. Shock travel does not change but the action will be a little softer with the more offset you have in the wheels.

[Chef]

This is gettin good...whos got the pop corn?:D :cool:

[seven]

Originally posted by Jeff@QuadShop
That is what I was saying all along. Shock travel does not change but the action will be a little softer with the more offset you have in the wheels.
Thats what i said also if you go back about 15 posts. Your shocks will be softer and it will push a little more threw the corners. Then they said it doesnt make any difrence after the spindle. Or tire leverage. Oh well, I am still with you jeff@quadshop!

aside from extra stress on parts ...cant the negative "feedback"
be reduced by the tie rod , camber & caster adjustaments ..provided the A-arms will allow this ?

[seven]

Best cure is a steering dampner!

[cdalejef]

Originally posted by "2-R's Rider"
aside from extra stress on parts ...cant the negative "feedback"
be reduced by the tie rod , camber & caster adjustaments ..provided the A-arms will allow this ? adjustments and a dampner will help some but they won't be a cure all!

[seven]

Originally posted by Jeff@QuadShop
adjustments and a dampner will help some but they won't be a cure all!
So then we go back to the begining of this whole discussion. The best way to widen your quad is with +2 arms. The wider off set will widen it but it does have draw backs. If you dont have the $$$$$$ for wider a arms you can get the off set rims and live with It that way. the wider the off set the more pressure it puts on the tie rod which means more pressure transfered up the steering column and to the handle bars( bump steer). I think the easiest way is if you have read this far go back to the first thread and start over couse we are going in circles!

well tomorow I am going take 2 sets of wheels w/me for the tracks ..& switch em to see if I feel a great deal of difference ..

[rowlrag]

Originally posted by "2-R's Rider"
well tomorow I am going take 2 sets of wheels w/me for the tracks ..& switch em to see if I feel a great deal of difference ..
Thats the best thing to do, we can talk all night long about it but it comes down to trial and error. The laws of suspension are thrown out the window if try something that technically isn't suppose to work right, and you like it.:)

[86atc250r]

Jeff, I'll ask again....

How can the shock action be softer if you do not gain any mechanical advantage??????????? (note the extra ? marks).

Clue: It can't.

Why? Because those darn physical laws that govern our universe prevent such things.

The trial and error's been done - this is why you don't see any pro level riders running big offset wheels instead of control arms. The additional feedback into the handlebars is not a good thing. It's not good on front end componentry. Running wider offset wheels is especially bad for XC racing for several reasons, but two important ones are fatigue/injury and you are *much* more likely to bend a tie rod when hitting a tree.

This is one of the few things in a front end that's really not a compromise - big offsets are bad - plain and simple. A damper will help, but as the old saying goes - an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

[cdalejef]

Originally posted by 86atc250r
Jeff, I'll ask again....

How can the shock action be softer if you do not gain any mechanical advantage??????????? (note the extra ? marks).

Clue: It can't.
Set your bike up on a stand and take the wheel and hub off.....grab the front axle and try to compress the suspension.........pretty hard isn't it!
Now, take a 10 foot piece of pipe and slide it over the axle and pull up on the end of the pipe.........I bet you can bottom the shock out easily!

[AtvMxRider]

Everybody just tell 86atc250r he's right. He's not going to quit until evryone agrees with him:rolleyes: .

yeah ..
I have been running the smaller offset wheels for a long time ..my quad handles real good ..I have always heard the offsets are bad ...for this & that reason ..I have never had a big problem or any ill affects thus far ..true I have spent a while setting it up ..
I recently got some of the other wheels ..so I am gonna try them ..& yes I do have a steering damper ..

[seven]

Ill just say this, I understand what you are saying about your laws. Now, If you have a stock a arm your wheel is level for the most part. So from the spindle out is a strait line. So when you ad a rim and tire its is a strait line from the spindles. Now the A arms are going in a difrent line, down then out to the spindles. If the a arms went strait to the wheel then you would see the extra ground clearance and your physics laws would come into play. But there is other variables such as the spindles that change your equation. In other words in is not a strait line from the a arms to the tire.I will give an example, Have you seen the gull wings a- arms?They are +3. To reduce the actual ride heigth of the +3 a arms they put the bend in the a arms after the shock mount to reduce ride heigth. It reduces it again when you get to the spindle, by the time you hit the tire you are at the same ride heigth as if you had stock a arms. I dont know how else to explain it so if this doesnt do it i give up.

[QuadTrix6]

Originally posted by AtvMxRider
Everybody just tell 86atc250r he's right. He's not going to quit until evryone agrees with him:rolleyes: .


:huh your kidding right ??

Gabe is the only one who has provided the right information, sit back and learn something instead of making useless posts :rolleyes:

[Elmo on PCP]

86atc250r concept it totaly true, its hard to picture but it all makes sence. Its like wondering how the world is a sphere and we dont fall off, onece you get it it stays and makes sence after all

[Pappy]

ok im not taking sides here....but i have been told not to run wider offset rims due to the stress it places on the spindles and the ill effects on handling.

my question would be this:

why if all else is equal...when you put like +2 a arms on and use stock shocks are they normally way to soft:confused: is it becuase the leverage point has increased due to the wider a arm? because the shock mount has remained the same distance..correct? so if making the end of the arm longer(ie: +2) why wouldnt adding another inch or 2 have the same affect:ermm:

[Tommy 17]

:huh this is very confusin... but i would think it would be like placin the 10ft pipe on the end like jeff said... but then again thats only one a-arm and not 2:ermm:


mayb since the a-arms are tied together thats why it don't work like we think they are... the ball joints are still only lets say 6 inches out from the frame and not 8 inches... it must have to be where it has to change the distance from the upper and lower ball joints out...

ok i'm just confusin myself:confused2

[Chef]

Originally posted by AtvMxRider
Everybody just tell 86atc250r he's right. He's not going to quit until evryone agrees with him:rolleyes: .

Jerry, shut up.:D

[AtvMxRider]

Originally posted by Chef
Jerry, shut up.:D :uhoh:


I'm not saying Gabe is wrong or anybody else for that matter it just seems like he doesn't want to hear what other people have to say:ermm: . thats just my observation. All I know is I have offset wheels with stock a-arms and I love the way is handles:) .

[AtvMxRider]

Originally posted by QuadTrix6
:huh your kidding right ??

Gabe is the only one who has provided the right information, sit back and learn something instead of making useless posts :rolleyes:


If I wanted your opinion I would have given it to you:ermm: :rolleyes: .

Originally posted by AtvMxRider
If I wanted your opinion I would have given it to you:ermm: :rolleyes: .

ROTFLMGDAO HAHAHAHA :blah:

Originally posted by QuadTrix6
sit back and learn something instead of making useless posts :rolleyes:

he's right. :macho

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by AtvMxRider
:uhoh:


I'm not saying Gabe is wrong or anybody else for that matter it just seems like he doesn't want to hear what other people have to say:ermm: . thats just my observation. All I know is I have offset wheels with stock a-arms and I love the way is handles:) . Its sounds all so complicated,:confused2 but like Jerry I too have really liked the offset, that is..On sand..Ill find out next week how the new offset radials feel...;) Maybe to settle the delibima we should get someone on the thread who would no for sure(not poinmting out that ANYONE is wrong) who would be a good person to help us on this one.???

[QuadTrix6]

Originally posted by AtvMxRider
If I wanted your opinion I would have given it to you:ermm: :rolleyes: .


big shot :rolleyes:

[bongwater200]

Ok.

Here's a few words of wisdom on this subject from someone who has done more automotive, light truck, and heavy truck front end work than you can shake a stick at.

Almost everyone in here is right about one thing or another, but are out in left field about something else.

1) Offset rims DO NOT change the leverage ratio on your shocks. They DO, however, change the amount of feedback that you will get from the terrain, and they put one hell of a lot of stress on your ball joints and tie rods. Offset rims are an extension of the SPINDLE, not of the a-arms.

2) SAI (steering axis inclination) DOES NOT change with offset rims. Let me try to simply explain how to understand what SAI is. Look at your brake rotor from the front or rear...... then imagine a strait line through the center of your ball joints. That's SAI, and it is correctly measured in degrees. SAI is the difference (in degrees) between the plane of the ball joints, and a plane perpendicular (90*) to the spindle. It has nothing to do with where two imaginary lines intersect, and a 33-inch SuperSwamper on a Ford 8-bolt offset wheel would not change the SAI. (that is, unless you bent the spindle putting it on!)

Remember the old Chrysler commercial about the Dodge Intrepid? How it was SOOOOO advanced that the tires actually tilt in and out as it turns corners? Well kiddies, that's NOT advanced.... its SAI, and its been around forever.

Does this help shed any light on the subject?

[RIDER11X]

Originally posted by RIDER11X
Got 2+3 offset wheels now. Will this make my shocks seem softer like if I added +2" A-arms? :confused2

Thanks!!!:cool:

Well, I tried them out today. The shocks are no softer than before, and the feedback was increased but not enough to worry about. As for the added stresses on the spindle associated with this offset, that is true but I'm no Dana Creech so judging from the MX guys do with offset wheels, I think I'll be OK.

BTW, I talked to a guy today running 4+1 offset wheels, INSIDE OUT! He said he runs flush mount valve stems from JC Witney. This was a MX quad with what looked to be +2" Aarms also. Judging by his riding, I think he knew what he was doing. ;)

[sparky450AR]

Originally posted by Jeff@QuadShop
Yes, they do put more leverage on your shocks in turn making them a little softer. They will not make them as soft as +2" a-arms however! Offset wheels are not a substitute for wider arms. The will have a negative effect on steering!


yes it makes it very hard to steer,,,it puts your turning leverage out all teh way to the end of teh wheel...not in the a-arm....if that makes any sence

[RIDER11X]

Originally posted by sparky450AR
yes it makes it very hard to steer,,, :ermm: No problem here.

[AtvMxRider]

Originally posted by RIDER11X
:ermm: No problem here.


Me either:ermm: .

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by AtvMxRider
Me either:ermm: . Nor I so far..So why is it some have steering problems,and some dont?:confused: I mean, Im sure if I had a few mods done, maybe to compare it to, I would have BETTER steering,but to say "worse"....not so far....;)

[bongwater200]

Originally posted by QuadJunkies
Nor I so far..So why is it some have steering problems,and some dont?:confused: I mean, Im sure if I had a few mods done, maybe to compare it to, I would have BETTER steering,but to say "worse"....not so far....;)


That's for the same reason that some people can't tell the difference between shocks and some can. Its all in how well you truly understand what you're looking for. I know people who can't feel the difference between a 34mm and a 38mm carb.

You must be one with the machine, grasshopper.

[RIDER11X]

Originally posted by QuadJunkies
Nor I so far..So why is it some have steering problems,and some dont?:confused: I mean, Im sure if I had a few mods done, maybe to compare it to, I would have BETTER steering,but to say "worse"....not so far....;)
I know the more preload that I run, the more my Holeshots tend to grab at the side of the trail. Just an example of what certain set ups can do.

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by bongwater200
That's for the same reason that some people can't tell the difference between shocks and some can. Its all in how well you truly understand what you're looking for. I know people who can't feel the difference between a 34mm and a 38mm carb.

You must be one with the machine, grasshopper. :p Well.I sure am trying ......:p :D

[bongwater200]

Originally posted by QuadJunkies
:p Well.I sure am trying ......:p :D


That's all you can do! Nobody gets fast overnight. (well, I think Harold Goodman did, but its rare!)

[seven]

I will agree whith that one. Some people are more sensitive to suttle changes on there quads and others are not. I am not bragging but iI can usually tell by riding my quad whats going on with it. I am not as good jumping on sombody elses and telling without a lot of ride time on it. I have spent many months dialing mine in were I like it. Any change In the way it handles is a big change to me. Other people can jump on a quad and make it work for them. I am not one. I do now that the rims make the shocks a bit softer and they will push a bit in the corners. Thats not to say somebody else cant jump on one and make it work for them. If i get time tomorow I WILL PROVE my point.

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by seven
I will agree whith that one. Some people are more sensitive to suttle changes on there quads and others are not. I am not bragging but iI can usually tell by riding my quad whats going on with it. I am not as good jumping on sombody elses and telling without a lot of ride time on it. I have spent many months dialing mine in were I like it. Any change In the way it handles is a big change to me. Other people can jump on a quad and make it work for them. I am not one. I do now that the rims make the shocks a bit softer and they will push a bit in the corners. Thats not to say somebody else cant jump on one and make it work for them. If i get time tomorow I WILL PROVE my point. I can agree there as well, even the smallest change in sound I can tell,to where maybe Troy cant since Im the one who rides it the most,Same with my rig, He coudlnt spot the sounds as well as I did and then FINALLY he understood what I was talking about.....:) I find this topic of the opffset a good learning tool guys.this was a good thread!@:cool: Very confusing...but alot to think about and learn from;)

[dhines]

Originally posted by AtvMxRider
:uhoh:


I'm not saying Gabe is wrong or anybody else for that matter it just seems like he doesn't want to hear what other people have to say:ermm: . thats just my observation. All I know is I have offset wheels with stock a-arms and I love the way is handles:) .

When everyone else is saying the equivalent of "the sky is green," I can't say I'd be much interested in listening either. You certainly don't have to agree with Gabe on this one, but then you don't HAVE to agree that the sky is blue...

[seven]

I was going to gat both rims out today and put it on my quad and take a picture with a tape measure tp prove my point. Then i relized that is a lot of work for nothing. To put it simple you say that you will gain stability with off set rims and makes the quad wider. You cant make a quad wider with out it affecting the leverage on the shock. Thats why you have to get them re valved for any changes. Longer swing arm, Longer a arms. Th ebest way to set up your quad is look at what the pros are running.

[boogiechile]

Quote "Everybody just tell 86atc250r he's right. He's not going to quit until evryone agrees with him "

Truth is he is right on all that he has said whether you agree or not.

As for the SAI and the two imaginary line thing, yes technically the SAI is just the angle the ball joints form and offset wheels will not change that. The SAI was designed for a particular offset though. That angle and the center line of the tire meeting at the ground are of huge importance. The difference in these two lines at the ground is commonly called "scrub." More scrub = more bump steer. Now the offset of the rim is what has to be right to match the SAI of the spindle. Wider offset rims add more scrub. Scrub is the leverage the wheel has against the steering system (Your handle bars and wrist). If the two lines of the SAI and the center line of the wheel meet on the ground at the same place then the scrub is zero and there is no leverage against you(can you say less bump steer). Now race cars usually have a little scrub bulit in because it helps the driver "feel" the road, but the road is smooth and there is no need to worry about bad bumps transfering to the driver. But with off road, mx , and xc riding there are many bumps and the terain will place stress against you so a scrub close to zero is a big help.

I know all this stuff is confusing for some and it may not be necessary for you to understand it all. But so far 86atc250r has been totally correct and offset wheels will NOT affect the leverage on the shock and therfore NOT make the shocks softer. If you want to test this just measure the ride height of your quad in the front. Then change to a different offset wheel with the SAME size tire and change nothing else. You will find that the ride height does not change. WHY? Because the leverage on the shock did not change when you changed wheel offsets.

A thread like this should never become or be thought of as an argument. But instead a debate for all to learn from.

Jeff, I made a similar post about putting a ten foot long pipe over the spindle and compressing the shock easier in a post a long time ago. But I was wrong. It will not make it any easier, all that extra leverage will go into the hinge effect off the ball joints and try to push in the upper a arm. The force pushing on the shock will still be the same. I was wrong and when it was pointed out to me by someone's post I realized it as clear as day.

[86atc250r]

Bongwater -


2) SAI (steering axis inclination) DOES NOT change with offset rims. Let me try to simply explain how to understand what SAI is. Look at your brake rotor from the front or rear...... then imagine a strait line through the center of your ball joints. That's SAI, and it is correctly measured in degrees. SAI is the difference (in degrees) between the plane of the ball joints, and a plane perpendicular (90*) to the spindle. It has nothing to do with where two imaginary lines intersect, and a 33-inch SuperSwamper on a Ford 8-bolt offset wheel would not change the SAI. (that is, unless you bent the spindle putting it on!)


You are correct... I was probably over simplifying and didn't clarify enough... SAI doesn't change with offset wheels, however I was using SAI as a reference point as to why scrub radius does change when you go to more offset wheels. I clarified my original post a touch as to not cause any more confusion.

Here's a link if you would like a more elegant definition and reference as to how SAI, tire size, offset, and scrub interact:
http://autorepair.about.com/library/glossary/bldef-725a.htm
and another
http://www.supaquick.co.za/alignment/glossary/axis_inclination.htm

BoogieChili - it was me
http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40773&perpage=15&pagenumber=4

That was a good thread.

Here is the the portion in question:

Think of it this way, if you took a frt hub off and put a ten foot long peace of pipe over the spindle, then raising the pipe from its end would make it much easier to compress the shock. While all the time the motion ratio had not changed.

Actually, it would not, that would violate the laws of physics.

Using your example, a wheel with a ridiculously exaggerated 10' offest would not put more stress against the shock, however - it would put more stress against the ball joints and spindle.

The only way to put more stress against the shock would be to extend the pivot point (move the ball joints 10' out) while leaving the shock mount in the same position.

Try the experiment (actually, don't, you'll likely bend the spindle as it will try to become the pivot point)

Negating the effects of the pipe's flex, the force required to move the control arm assembly "X" distance will be the same as if you directly grabbed the spindle with your hand.

Since the distance you move the pipe and the distance the spindle will move will be the same (again, assuming the pipe is strong enough not to flex), no leverage is applied and the force required will also remain the same, regardless of how long the pipe attached to the spindle is.

Now, if your pipe was directly connected to the lower control arm (without the pivot of a ball joint), the results would be different since you would move the pipe a long distance to move the control arm a short distance.

Making sense?

[RIDER11X]

Wow, did I ever open a can of worms! :eek:

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by RIDER11X
Wow, did I ever open a can of worms! :eek: LOL!!Naw, its good to learn from I think..;)

[Chef]

I wish I could post pictures..it would make this argument SO much easier.

Think of it like this guys. To make the pipe on the spindle theory work correctly, you would have to be moving the end of the pipe and spindle in a circular type motion, so that you could use the leverage. With two a-arms and balljoints, the spindle HAS to move straight up and down. Putting a pipe on the end of the spindle wouldnt help you to pick straight up on something.

You would have to have the end of the spindle moving in a shape like ) instead of l . Do you ever wonder why dual a-arm set ups dont have nearly so bad as camber gain as a single set up? Putting the contact patch on the ground farther from the ball joints does nothing for shock leverage...NOTHING. All it does is make the scrub tremendous and slow you down. Thats IT.

[wilkin250r]

I've changed my majors, now I'm electrical, but I've spent a great deal of time studying mechanical engineering (to add to my credibility)

The definition of camber is the angle of the wheel in relation to the vertical. Does the top lean inwards toward the chassis (negative camber) or does it lean outwards (positive camber)

In a single arm setup, the camber will change with suspension travel. If the arm is exactly 1 ft long, and the suspension travel is 30 degrees, then the total travel is 12*sin 30 = 6 inches.

In a single arm setup, yes, wheel offset will affect the shock. It will increase the lever arm, just like using a longer wrench on a nut. The main point is, the camber changes with suspension travel.

However, sport quads have dual arm setups. In a dual-arm setup, the camber does not change with suspension travel. The wheel will stay perfectly vertical throughout the range of travel (theoretically).

Imagine extending your lug nut studs out 10 ft. In a single arm setup, as the camber changes, the studs will tilt upwards. The farther out you go, the farther they are from the ground.

With a dual arm setup, your 10ft studs would stay perfectly parallel to the ground.

[86atc250r]

Sounds like Chef and Wilkin250R get it :)

How about you Jeff - seeing the light yet?

[Guy400]

Gabe, I don't care about your law of physics. A rim with a 6' offset will soften the shock. Throw away 3000 years of mechanical engineering facts and agree with me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




LMAO:D

[86atc250r]

Don't make me come over there Guy :mad:

im gonna have to go with wilkin250r on this one because of his 10 foot a-arms deal i agree.

[wilkin250r]

It would definitly be easier to explain with pictures. If anybody needs a graphical representation, email me, I can whip up some AutoCAD drawings.

[Guy400]

I must say, this has turned into one of the most informative threads we've had in a long time. The other pleasant surprise is that we had 2 schools of thought (those who understand and those who don't:D) but it never turned into a flame war that ended with "Oh yeah, well your race cut fenders look ugly."

[Taco]

Oh yeah, well your race cut fenders look ugly:devil:

[Guy400]

Originally posted by Taco
Oh yeah, well your race cut fenders look ugly:devil: :cuss: There's always one!

lmao :blah:

[QuadTrix6]

Originally posted by Guy400
I must say, this has turned into one of the most informative threads we've had in a long time. The other pleasant surprise is that we had 2 schools of thought (those who understand and those who don't:D) but it never turned into a flame war that ended with "Oh yeah, well your race cut fenders look ugly."

Hey guy you couldn't be more right i can't remember the last time i learned something new on this site :ermm: but thanks to gabe and boogiechile for getting the ball rolling and posting some excellent explanations on the forum, thanks guys

[Bad Habit]

Originally posted by 86atc250r
Sounds like Chef and Wilkin250R get it :)

I want to get it too.:D
But oh ya, I get the whole hinge point, leverage thingy already.

[modracer5]

Originally posted by wilkin250r
I've changed my majors, now I'm electrical, but I've spent a great deal of time studying mechanical engineering (to add to my credibility)

The definition of camber is the angle of the wheel in relation to the vertical. Does the top lean inwards toward the chassis (negative camber) or does it lean outwards (positive camber)

In a single arm setup, the camber will change with suspension travel. If the arm is exactly 1 ft long, and the suspension travel is 30 degrees, then the total travel is 12*sin 30 = 6 inches.

In a single arm setup, yes, wheel offset will affect the shock. It will increase the lever arm, just like using a longer wrench on a nut. The main point is, the camber changes with suspension travel.

However, sport quads have dual arm setups. In a dual-arm setup, the camber does not change with suspension travel. The wheel will stay perfectly vertical throughout the range of travel (theoretically).

Imagine extending your lug nut studs out 10 ft. In a single arm setup, as the camber changes, the studs will tilt upwards. The farther out you go, the farther they are from the ground.

With a dual arm setup, your 10ft studs would stay perfectly parallel to the ground.

you might want to go back and study some more.....in a dual a arm setup your camber DOES change..... you have 2 a arms traveling from two diffrent inner pivot points and swinging in two diffrent arcs.... even if both arms were the same length they would still swing in diffrent arcs causing either camber gain or camber loss. you can change it by increasing or decreasing the heigth of the spindle or the length of the a arms but it takes alot of work to get camber loss or gain out of a frontend. if you are good with frontends and can fabricate you can control it.

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by Guy400
I must say, this has turned into one of the most informative threads we've had in a long time. The other pleasant surprise is that we had 2 schools of thought (those who understand and those who don't:D) but it never turned into a flame war that ended with "Oh yeah, well your race cut fenders look ugly." I agree.....Very good thread......;)

[Ralph]

this thread is to big to read it all but the way i see it.. if the lengght is increased it will take less leverage as you would need with a shorter lenght... its like a-arms.. when you get your shocks built the main question is what size extended a-arms are you running. if its +2 its stiffer... Well +2 a-arms make the distance from the leverage point. to the part where the force is applied(the tire) longer. Well The offset rims make the distance from the leverage point to the tire farhter apart acting just like the a-arms. now the question is, is the increase in lenght big enough to feel a differance or make it unridable.. probably not figuring i used to be 130 pounds riding a 400ex just fine and there is guys weighing in at 200 pounds on the stock shocks and still feel ok on em.. its cause the machine is ment to be ridable by all shapes and sizes...

just like loossening a tight bolt is a hell of alot easier with a breaker bar(pvc pipe or whatever the hell you find in the garage) than with the normal 6" long wrench... its seems like commen sense to me but why dont we all pm a link to santo so we make sure he answers this question...

Originally posted by Ralph
this thread is to big to read it all but the way i see it.. if the lengght is increased it will take less leverage as you would need with a shorter lenght... its like a-arms.. when you get your shocks built the main question is what size extended a-arms are you running. if its +2 its stiffer... Well +2 a-arms make the distance from the leverage point. to the part where the force is applied(the tire) longer. Well The offset rims make the distance from the leverage point to the tire farhter apart acting just like the a-arms. now the question is, is the increase in lenght big enough to feel a differance or make it unridable.. probably not figuring i used to be 130 pounds riding a 400ex just fine and there is guys weighing in at 200 pounds on the stock shocks and still feel ok on em.. its cause the machine is ment to be ridable by all shapes and sizes...

just like loossening a tight bolt is a hell of alot easier with a breaker bar(pvc pipe or whatever the hell you find in the garage) than with the normal 6" long wrench... its seems like commen sense to me but why dont we all pm a link to santo so we make sure he answers this question...

I think you should read the whole thread because its not as simple as just moving the wheels out farther to increase leverage. ;)

[boogiechile]

Modracer5, You are correct about camber change on a dual a arm setup, but I think wilkin250r understands this by his use of the word "theoretically" in ( ) after his statement. To see the difference between single and dual arm setups as far as leverage is concerned, you just kinda look at the duals as non camber changing even though it does change some.

Camber gain or loss is real and the longer the travel the more the change will be. (on most setups)
I just finished buiding a frt end and altering a frame. I made a single bottom rail for the lower a arms to pivot on similar to a Roll chassis and moved the upper rails in closer as well. (in order to reduce bump steer and lengthen the a arms for the same overall width giving more travel at less a arm angle) (this is all good but it has its bad side too) I had to work very hard to get the camber loss to minimum. It has a real 12.25 inches of travel and the camber would get pretty negative at the bottom of the travel. I ended up having to lower the top mounts a good bit to minimixe the camber loss. Camber does gain about 3 degrees from ride height to full compression though.

Ralph, you say the thread is to big to read. You really need to read it though because your idea that offset wheels will add to the leverage on the shock of a dual a arm quad is wrong. I am not flaming you. I think this thread has done a fair job at staying a discussion, so please read it all so that you at least see the explanations given.

[Pappy]

ok...someone explain it to me....what relationship does the upper a arm have on the leverage point of the lower shock mount and the applied leverage at the ball joint:scary: im getting what ya'll are saying but maybe this would clarify the issue

[seven]

They are saying that the extra leverage from a off set wheel is being transfered threw the top a arm. In a short way of putting it.
Also that the hinge point of the shock acts like a reducer. Putting the two together they are saying you will not see any diffrence in a off set wheel. I personally disagree.

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by modracer5
you might want to go back and study some more.....in a dual a arm setup your camber DOES change..... you have 2 a arms traveling from two diffrent inner pivot points and swinging in two diffrent arcs.... even if both arms were the same length they would still swing in diffrent arcs causing either camber gain or camber loss. you can change it by increasing or decreasing the heigth of the spindle or the length of the a arms but it takes alot of work to get camber loss or gain out of a frontend. if you are good with frontends and can fabricate you can control it.

You are absolutely right. The only way you would get absolutely zero camber change is if the distance between the a-arm pivots was exactly equal to the height of the spindle. If the distance is greater, you will get a camber increase through the range of motion, and if the distance is less than the spindle height, you will get a camber decrease.

I was merely relating the major points as it applies to the topic at hand. The camber change through the suspension travel has very little effect in relation to offset wheels affecting the shocks.

[wilkin250r]

From a physics standpoint, work is equal to force times distance.

When you use a longer wrench on a stubborn bolt, you move your hand out farther and it becomes easier. By moving your hand out, you decrease the force you need to apply, but you increase the total distance your hand moves as you turn the bolt. Force is decreased, but distance is increased, so that the total work remains the same.


If the camber does not change (as in a dual-arm setup), the leverage and total distance traveled for offset rims vs standard does not change. If distance is the same, then applied force is also the same.

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by Pappy
ok...someone explain it to me....what relationship does the upper a arm have on the leverage point of the lower shock mount and the applied leverage at the ball joint:scary: im getting what ya'll are saying but maybe this would clarify the issue

The upper a-arm can have an effect on the forces exerted on the shock.

It has been pointed out that there actually IS a small amount of camber change through the full suspension travel. If the distance between the a-arm pivots is greater than the height of the spindle, then the camber will increase (top of the tire pointed out) with suspension travel.

With this camber change, an offset will have a NEGATIVE effect, making the shock actually stiffer, but the effects are very little, less than a few lbs difference.

The pivot point of the forces due to offset wheels is the bottom of the spindle. The torque applied at the lug nuts translates to tension along the length of the lower a-arm, and compression along the length of the upper a-arm. This could possible lead to excess wear on the ball joints.

[forum]

i don't now what other people told you and im not about to read all of the stuff people posted. but the furhter out your rim offset is the higher the tendency the bars will have to rip outa your hands while going over bumbs. thats why the hot setup is 4-1 rims with +3 a arms. Thats what im runing with a pep rebuildable stabilzer and a houser wristwrester. The handle bars are so solid its like a cady. some people may not like that. I do.

[QuadTrix6]

Originally posted by forum
i don't now what other people told you and im not about to read all of the stuff people posted. but the furhter out your rim offset is the higher the tendency the bars will have to rip outa your hands while going over bumbs. thats why the hot setup is 4-1 rims with +3 a arms. Thats what im runing with a pep rebuildable stabilzer and a houser wristwrester. The handle bars are so solid its like a cady. some people may not like that. I do.

i hope you are running a + swingarm and not stock lenght :eek:

[norcalatver]

WHEW!!!!! just finished reading through the posts!!!!! Think I'm gonna take a nap now:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[redroost85]

Whew! I read through some of the posts and I think I now understand. I run offset rims and they are great on the straights, but sometimes through the bumps my bars almost jump outta my hands. I love my offset rims, but I would take +2 a-arms any day! Thanks for all the info guys!:D

[modracer5]

wheel offset does effect the leverage on a shock. you guys want to compare the use of diffrent length wrenches...wells lets do it. your hand slides out to the end, same as the wheel, that is the end of the lever. the lower shock mount pivot point does not change...so by moving the wheel out you have just made your lever longer. your ball joints do not flex!! so just as your hands feel the added imput from the SAI or scrub patch being moved outward your shock feels it too. all you guys who have aftermarket a-arms go and measure from the inner pivot point to the lower shock mount on a stock lower and then maesure on a +1, +2, +3, lower and you will find the shock mount to be in the same position. they add the length to the a-arm after the lower shock mount...adding length to the overall lever. that is why your shocks need to be sprung or valved stiffer. when you add an offset front wheel you lengthen the lever adding more pressure to the shock during travel.

[RIDER11X]

Originally posted by modracer5
wheel offset does effect the leverage on a shock.
Sorry, but IMO that is not correct, at least in any noticable degree. I got 4+1's and 2+3's with Holeshot xc's mounted on both, and it makes the suspension no softer either way, from direct experience.

Hopefully we can also confirm this with Santo soon, as this question was asked over there too. ;)

[Guy400]

modracer5, you are correct if it were a single lever suspension set-up. Our quads use a dual a-arm system and because of that wheel offset does not change the leverage applied to the shock. The reason for this has already been explained by bongwater and 86atc250r. You may have a hard time believing it but it's fact. Check any mechanical engineering book regarding a dual control arm suspension system and they will tell you the same thing.

Let me really over simplify this and ask you a question. Whenever we buy shocks the builder asks us what length a-arms we're running. That's because a-arm length does affect the shock. Notice they never ask you what wheel offset you're running? They don't ask because they know offset doesn't affect the shocks. Afterall, the difference between a 4-1 wheel or 2-3 wheel would be the same as the difference between +1 arms and +3 arms but the shock builders never ask about wheel offset.

Originally posted by Guy400
Let me really over simplify this and ask you a question. Whenever we buy shocks the builder asks us what length a-arms we're running. That's because a-arm length does affect the shock. Notice they never ask you what wheel offset you're running? They don't ask because they know offset doesn't affect the shocks.

Actually the shock builders do ask what offset you are running or atleast mine did. :eek: I was talking to boogiechile about this and even though the offsets wont effect bottoming resistence they ask your offsets so they can enhance the handling based on that offset. :blah:

[Guy400]

PEP, TCS and Elka didn't ask me about offset when I called them when I was shock hunting a couple months ago.

Regardless, offset won't affect leverage applied to the shock.

Originally posted by Guy400
PEP, TCS and Elka didn't ask me about offset when I called them when I was shock hunting a couple months ago.

Regardless, offset won't affect leverage applied to the shock.

I think they didnt get that specific when you were just asking about them but when i ordered my PEPs they asked and i filled it out on there spec sheets.

[wilkin250r]

For anybody that is reading this thread, but is too lazy to read the whole thing, let's me say this.

Offset wheels will affect your shocks IF you have a single a-arm setup.

Offset wheels will NOT affect your shocks on a more typical dual a-arm setup.

If you disagree, I suggest you read through the entire thread before you try to point out an erroneous example that has already been made 14 times.

[QuadJunkies]

I got my 2-4 offset rims and Im ready to go try mine out this wk end.:)

[Pappy]

ok...what about 20's:devil:

[seven]

Originally posted by QuadJunkies
I got my 2-4 offset rims and Im ready to go try mine out this wk end.:)
Are you guys going up to the track tomorow? And i was wondering if troy tried out my card yet.

[cdalejef]

Originally posted by RIDER11X
Sorry, but IMO that is not correct, at least in any noticable degree. I got 4+1's and 2+3's with Holeshot xc's mounted on both, and it makes the suspension no softer either way, from direct experience.

Hopefully we can also confirm this with Santo soon, as this question was asked over there too. ;) I have the same setup......4+1 for MidSouths and 3+2 for GNCC. I can tell a slight difference, 3+2 wheels soften the shocks so I dial in some compression to compensate!

[AtvMxRider]

Originally posted by Jeff@QuadShop
, 3+2 wheels soften the shocks so I dial in some compression to compensate!


No they don't. Didn't we go threw this earlier?:blah: :devil:

[cdalejef]

Originally posted by Guy400
PEP, TCS and Elka didn't ask me about offset when I called them when I was shock hunting a couple months ago.

Regardless, offset won't affect leverage applied to the shock. Ok, I just called Elka and asked them this question. Does offset wheels have an effect on shocks?
His answer was yes. He said a 2+3 offset wheel puts more leverage on a shock thus making the shock softer than it would on a 4+1 wheel. However, he said the 95% of riders will not notice the difference because it is a small difference. This is why they don't ask what wheel offset you are running. If the rider is a pro level racer then they will ask what offset wheel they are running.
This is documented and graphed on a dynamic suspension testing machine.

hope this clears things up!

[86atc250r]

Jeff...

Here's a little math:

2 * 25 = 50

So far so good, eh?

Now:

2 * 25 = 75

Got a problem here, don't we?

Now, here's a simple little formula that's been mentioned

D * F = W

In other words, Distance times Force equals Work

Now, consider this:

"W" is the work done against the shock - agreed?

"F" is input force at the wheel when you hit a bump - this force is constant whether you hit a bump with 4/1 offset wheels or 1/4 offset wheels - agreed?

This force number could also be your hand pulling up on the spindle, and your hand pulling up on the proverbial 10' extension coming off the spindle.

This force is coming from you and knowing that you'd like a good constant experiment, you will apply the same force when you grab the spindle as you do when you grab the end of the 10' extension as not to complicate things :).

"D" is the distance the wheel moves when the force mentioned above is put on it.

Offset wheels do not increase suspension travel - agreed?

Extending the control arms does increase suspension travel - agreed?

Any way I work the numbers shows that you CAN NOT increase the work done upon the shock without moving the wheel further thru the suspension travel, or increasing the force applied upon the wheel. Please advise.

[wilkin250r]

I guess it really depends on how detailed an explanation you want.

There is a small camber change through the suspension travel. Also, very few things are absolutely rigid, most things have some amount of flex. With this arguement, then yes, offset wheels will affect the shocks, but the effect is very slight, nothing NEAR the same effect that extended a-arms have.

The original question of "Will offset wheels have the same effect as +2 A-arms?" the answer is a resounding "NO" The arguement of comparing it to a longer wrench or a breaker bar is not valid. With a dual-arm setup, offset rims do NOT increase the lever arm on the shock.

So, yes, offset rims will have a **very small** effect on the shocks, but not near so much that you would need to re-valve your shocks, even a little bit. They will, however, severly affect your steering and handling.

[cdalejef]

Originally posted by 86atc250r
Jeff...

Here's a little math:

2 * 25 = 50

So far so good, eh?

Now:

2 * 25 = 75

Got a problem here, don't we?

Now, here's a simple little formula that's been mentioned

D * F = W

In other words, Distance times Force equals Work

Now, consider this:

"W" is the work done against the shock - agreed?

"F" is input force at the wheel when you hit a bump - this force is constant whether you hit a bump with 4/1 offset wheels or 1/4 offset wheels - agreed?

This force number could also be your hand pulling up on the spindle, and your hand pulling up on the proverbial 10' extension coming off the spindle.

This force is coming from you and knowing that you'd like a good constant experiment, you will apply the same force when you grab the spindle as you do when you grab the end of the 10' extension as not to complicate things :).

"D" is the distance the wheel moves when the force mentioned above is put on it.

Offset wheels do not increase suspension travel - agreed?

Extending the control arms does increase suspension travel - agreed?

Any way I work the numbers shows that you CAN NOT increase the work done upon the shock without moving the wheel further thru the suspension travel, or increasing the force applied upon the wheel. Please advise. WTF......your talking in circles!

[RIDER11X]

Originally posted by Jeff@QuadShop
Ok, I just called Elka and asked them this question. Does offset wheels have an effect on shocks?
His answer was yes. He said a 2+3 offset wheel puts more leverage on a shock thus making the shock softer than it would on a 4+1 wheel. However, he said the 95% of riders will not notice the difference because it is a small difference. This is why they don't ask what wheel offset you are running. If the rider is a pro level racer then they will ask what offset wheel they are running.
This is documented and graphed on a dynamic suspension testing machine.

hope this clears things up!
RIDER11X quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by modracer5
wheel offset does effect the leverage on a shock.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sorry, but IMO that is not correct, at least in any noticable degree. I got 4+1's and 2+3's with Holeshot xc's mounted on both, and it makes the suspension no softer either way, from direct experience.

Hopefully we can also confirm this with Santo soon, as this question was asked over there too.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, I guess I'm in the 95% then.:rolleyes: :D

[seven]

Not everybody will notice the diffrence. But if you are finicky about the way your quad handles you will. And works says the same thing. If you have adjustable shocks they dont take it into account becouse you can adjust it the way you want to.

[86atc250r]

Yes,

Not everyone will notice a difference, because there is none.

Also, if you're finicky about the way your quad handles, you would not even
consider running offset wheels because of the negative things it does
to scrub alone.

Let's take a little field trip to the shop shall we, you too Jeffy. School's in, boys....

Below are some pictures of a little expriment performed a few minutes ago.

The first - Here we setup a scale, jack, and a tape measure.
The shock is compressed to a height of 13" from the ground (1' 1" according to this tape).
It takes 80lbs of force from the hydraulic jack.
Note that the scale is not touching the bottom ball joint as it appears to in any of these pictures.
http://www.xcracing.com/gabe/front/mvc-012s.jpg

Here's a little better picture of the scale:
http://www.xcracing.com/gabe/front/mvc-013s.jpg


Next, we put a 31" extension on the end of the spindle.
Note that I could not exceed 31" because it was trying to bend the spindle and upper control arm.
Note the position of the needle on the scale:
http://www.xcracing.com/gabe/front/mvc-014s.jpg


This picture is of the measurement at the shock.
Note that we raised the shock the exact same amount - 13" or 1' 1"
according to this tape:
http://www.xcracing.com/gabe/front/mvc-016s.jpg


And lastly, we have a close up of the scale - note that it took exactly the same
amount of force - 80lbs to move the shock the same distance - 13" off the ground.
http://www.xcracing.com/gabe/front/mvc-015s.jpg


Now, if 31" of offset makes a negligable difference in force it takes to move the shock a given
distance, do you really think you can tell the diffence in shock action
between 4/1 wheels and 3/2 wheels? I think not.

I await your rebuttals. Oh yeah, you guys owe me some serious beers.
I don't normally drink, but make take it up after this thread.

Now, time to go prepare for my race this evening, later......

[cdalejef]

that is not a real world test Gabe! Your suspention needs to be articualting. All your doing is weighing your quad!

[Moto440]

This thread is turning into the silliest damn thing I have ever seen.

[86atc250r]

So, when the suspension is moving, the laws of physics change?

What is happening to the shocks as they move? They have force acting upon them. What did this expriment show? Force acting upon the shock. Force from the ground is NO DIFFERENT than force from the jack - it just happens slower.

True, we can't show any effects of compression damping - but, if it takes 80lbs of force to move the spindle X number of inches with 31" offset wheels and it is exactly the same with no offset - then how does the shock "know the difference"? -- answer - it doesn't, the shock merely reacts to the forces placed against it.

The things happening here do not change "on the fly".

This is getting laughable. Provide direct proof and still they argue with absolutely no grounds, no math, no theory, no physics, and nothing to back up the things they say.

Wasn't it you, Jeff that said if I were to put an extension on the spindle that the suspension would be extremely easy to lift? I just showed that to be false. The lack of sanity here is really disturbing....

[cdalejef]

You didn't move anything you just weighed the bike. It is a proven fact that more leverage on a shock makes it softer!!! This is getting silly and I'm finished.

[Moto440]

:huh

[86atc250r]

Oh yeah, I forgot to post how far the shock was moved in the experiment -
this was the starting point, it took 80lbs of force to move the shock 1.5" in both scenarios - offset or not offset.

What fact did you prove? That's right, you offered no proof of anything.
However, what you said was correct, more leverage upon the shock does make it "softer" -
what was just shown was that adding offset does not add more leverage against the shock.

Go ahead and skate on out, it's easy to run when you've been defeated.

http://www.xcracing.com/gabe/front/mvc-017s.jpg

[AtvMxRider]

Originally posted by Moto440
This thread is turning into the silliest damn thing I have ever seen.


Yes God please make it stop:rolleyes: .

[QuadTrix6]

its amazing to me how many people on this site are so unwilling to learn. what gabe did was prove his theory time after time with facts and he went out of his way took his quad apart and took pictures just so we can learn. if you think this thread is silly go back to the open forum and post in "the largest thread ever" :rolleyes:

[seven]

Also, if you're finicky about the way your quad handles, you would not even
consider running offset wheels because of the negative things it does
to scrub alone.


I never said I run a 3-2 off set wheel. I run a 4-1 with +2 arms. I was just replying to the topic at hand. And yes I have a set of 3-2 rims and they sit in a corner collecting dust. And I would like to congraulate you on starting the name calling.

[QuadTrix6]

Originally posted by AtvMxRider
It seems to me and several other people that Gabe is going out of is way just to prove he's right and everybody else is wrong.


Hmm i think gabe is supporting his argument fine. Gabes looking to get the CORRECT info across..whats so wrong with that ? seems that jeff is wrong and has no info to back it up :scary:, i think what gabe is doing is great and if we had more members like him and less members like you we would all be a lot smarter :eek2:

[Guy400]

Gabe's experiment is 100% accurate. The floorjack applying pressure to the spindle is exactly the same as riding on a trail and hitting a bump. He's not weighing the quad at all. He's lifting up on the spindle and compressing the shock a given distance. If it took 80lbs. to compress the shock 1.5" by lifting directly on the spindle and then took 80lbs. again 31" away from the spindle this proves that the leverage applied to the shock terminates at the balljoints, not at the wheel. I can guarantee you that if Gabe removed his upper a-arm and did this experiment again you would then see a leverage advantage by lengthening the lower a-arm (or adding a piece of pipe). It seems as if most people here aren't seperating between the physics of a single lever application and a dual control arm application. I've made a simple drawing to illustrate the facts that Gabe is trying to relay. The blue line in both drawings is the shock. Figure 1 is a single lever. Point A is the pivot and point B is the end of the lever. The dotted line to point C is an extension (a piece of pipe slipped over the end of the lever or a greater offset wheel). In Figure 1 the mechanical advantage will increase with an increased distance to point C.

Figure 2 is obviously a dual control arm lever as run on our quads. Point A being the pivot (at the frame) and point B being our balljoints. In a dual control arm the leverage applied to the shock is terminated at point B. It terminates here because of it's attachment to the upper control arm via the spindle. Applying force to the dual control arms at point C will not change the leverage at the shock. There is a definite distinction between the physics of a single control arm and a dual control arm. This is a proven fact as stated in any mechanical engineering documentation regarding dual control arm suspension.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid75/pee0cad21743740cee28d3edce872b2ab/fb4dcba5.jpg

[cdalejef]

LMAO....you just don't get it.:rolleyes:

[Guy400]

Originally posted by Jeff@QuadShop
LMAO....you just don't get it.:rolleyes: I guess you don't:D

I wish I would've kept my mechanical engineering book from college but I sold them back when I was done :(

[cdalejef]

I get it! I can feel the difference when I switch back and forth. Elkas shock dyno proves it too!

[Moto440]

For real. Your name got brought up whn I was riding with a few people, and I told them I post on an internet sight you post on, and one of them ask me if you were an engineer that worked for the state or something. Is that true? BTW, your name got brought up because of your mega CNCC riding skills.........:D

[cdalejef]

LOL.......actually I used to work for the county government but that was a few years ago. You sure they weren't making fun of my hair? :(

[modracer5]

the reason that Gabe did not show a diffrence in his experiment is that he did not add or move any additional weight to that corner of the quad. if he were so smart he would realize that and so would you guys. i have been around racecars my whole life and am new to the quads for about 2 years so trust me i know this one...i have had my car on a set of 1400.00 longacre electronic scales enough times to know that all he did was lengthen the lever but did not move any weight so that is why the diffrence did not show up...


if you guys who think you are in the know about all this would really like to know...go to www.ssapubl.com and order the book Paved Track Stock Car Technology and read for yourselves. this is one of the best books i ever invested in. it is written by Steve Smith who is one of the formost racecar suspension men with a background in engeneering. He even has the formulas and diagrams to prove.

[QuadJunkies]

Whew.this thread is given me a Migraine.....:confused2 Im understanding the theory a little bit better,but still......:ermm: All, I know is ITs gonna have ot work for me regardelss cause my mods are done and paid for until spring .so I hope it works ok for me...;) Ive rode with 2-4 offset and for what I do it should be fine

[Guy400]

I went back through the last 2 pages and cleaned this thread up. It's got far too much information to just get scrolled into never-never land. Let's keep it to suspension tech and eliminate the name calling.

[AtvMxRider]

Sorry everyone especially you Gabe and you to Quadtrix6 for the crap I was saying:) .

[Moto440]

never seen your hair Jeff, but you could post a pic on the Lets See you thread. Ya, clean this thread up!!!!!:rolleyes:

[QuadTrix6]

Originally posted by AtvMxRider
Sorry everyone especially you Gabe and you to Quadtrix6 for the crap I was saying:) .

no hard feelings man, im sorry too. lets get this thread back on track. :cool:

[Moto440]

No need to curse at people or personally attack them. I got cursed at for in the thread about the 360's, but I was not gonna argue about it or sink to that level. Infact, I will just not do anything about it. The moderators may not do anything about it, so may be if people just ignore the ignorant people they will eventually go away.

Originally posted by QuadTrix6
seems that jeff is wrong and has no info to back it up :scary:,

I guess being ranked 16th in the nation means that Jeff doesn't know what he's doing when it comes to setting up a quad..:ermm:

[QuadTrix6]

Originally posted by Rico
I guess being ranked 16th in the nation means that Jeff doesn't know what he's doing when it comes to setting up a quad..:ermm:

I didn't know that if you were ranked highly you could never be wrong and that you don't have to give any facts to back up your arguments.:ermm: listen i do not want to start the flames again. This is nothing personal against jeff. Lets just keep this thread going in the right direction.

[Pappy]

i must be a dumb white boy cuz i cant apply the physics you fellas are posting. i can understand them...i just cant apply them.



answer me this someone......whats the sole purpose of the upper a arm? i always thought it acted as a locator for the spindle and a guide support more then a component that has any affect on the the suspension travel until it reached the upper limits of its upswing. (camber not withstanding)

in gabes experiment would the numbers be the same wether the upper a arm is attached or not?

my point ...and maybe this is whats confusing me is that the biggest factor to say NO to the wider offset has been that this is a double a arm set up....but maybe i need to read up on this because its got me lost:p




as far as the thread being locked....i locked it because i was sick of the flames....and it was getting worse. as far as the mechanical engineers up in here...you fellas should have taken a few debating classes so that arguements can remain constructive and not get so personal with your responces. you can disagree with someone without wanting to kill them:scary:

[Bad Habit]

answer me this someone......whats the sole purpose of the upper a arm? i always thought it acted as a locator for the spindle and a guide support more then a component that has any affect on the the suspension travel until it reached the upper limits of its upswing. (camber not withstanding)

The principal of the dual a-arm setup is to keep the camber of the spindle constant (or as constant as possible) to provide the best contact patch between the tire and the surface it's on. The theory is to have the upper and lower ball joints travel in as straight a line as possible to minimize change in camber through the suspension travel. And yes, the upper a-arms function is to provide an anchor as the spindle tries to fold in when pressure is applied from the wheel. The load or weight of the quad, rider etc. is delivered to the lower ball joint, lower a-arm and shock. This is why you see alot of upper a-arms manufactured of smaller material or even different material (Yamaha for example) because they are only taking the load of spindle as it tries to pivot on the lower ball joint. Now all of this would be reversed if the shock mount was on the upper a-arm, but let's stick to the same design for this discussion. ;)



in gabes experiment would the numbers be the same wether the upper a arm is attached or not?

It would not be possible to do Gabe's experiment without the upper a-arm because, as stated above, the spindle would simply rotate or fold over when pressure is applied. You would have to make the spindle rigid with the lower a-arm. But then you would essentially be changing the entire setup to a single a-arm design and, by making the spindle rigid with the a-arm, any offset the wheel had would infact lengthen the lever acting on the shock.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Yellow416ex




It would not be possible to do Gabe's experiment without the upper a-arm because, as stated above, the spindle would simply rotate or fold over when pressure is applied.

i thought the leverage stopped at the ball joint...remove the spinde it shouldnt matter correct?

[Bad Habit]

Originally posted by Pappy
i thought the leverage stopped at the ball joint...remove the spinde it shouldnt matter correct?

If you remove the spindle, you would apply the pressure for the scale directly to the lower ball joint. When you put the 31" bar for part2 of the experiment, where would it attach? Directly to the lower ball joint? If you do this, you ARE lengthening the lower a-arm. With the spindle attached, the force of the wheel is actually pulling up on the lower a-arm directly at the ball joint, no matter what the wheel offset is, you're always applying force to the same spot on the lower s-arm.

[Pappy]

ok i understand the test gabe did....but what happens when different riding weight is applied ...like in cornering? when the mass of weight is applied to say the left front a arm in a tight high speed turn. does the weight(force applied) on that arm/shock change relative to the wheel offset or is it constant ?

[Bad Habit]

Originally posted by Pappy
ok i understand the test gabe did....but what happens when different riding weight is applied ...like in cornering? when the mass of weight is applied to say the left front a arm in a tight high speed turn. does the weight(force applied) on that arm/shock change relative to the wheel offset or is it constant ?

The weight applied to the arm/shock will remain the same indifferent to the amount of offset. However, the offset will affect the amount of force applied to the UPPER arm as there is more leverage trying to fold in (or out) the spindle. Again, the upper arm is there to locate the spindle in it's vertical line.

[Bad Habit]

I'm glad this thread is unlocked again. I think we are getting it back on course and the information is flowing again.;)

[Moto440]

What if c.a.t. really spelled dog?

[86atc250r]

Thanks guys for helping me try to explain this to those willing to listen.

I could go to a little more trouble and further illustrate my point by taking my quad with +2 arms and doing the expriment, then taking the same shocks to my stock quad and doing the experiment.

I've got a set of +2's that have the same shock mount location as stock that could be used in the experiment. Even a newbie can easily feel the difference in shock action with these arms vs stock, my shocks that are too firm for stock arms, suddenly become very soft with my +2's. This does not happen even when I've went from from extremes on offset wheels - 4/1 to reversed 4/1 wheels).

That would show how the leverage does change with extended control arms just as we've been saying it does. But that would do about as much good as proving my last point did, so I'm not going to bother.

Sorry if some of you took a few of my postings toward Jeff wrong, but he was (and still is) being completely irrational and was getting ready to bow out of the debate - I had to post something a touch racy to draw him back in. Few things are more irritating than when you spend some time and effort to prove a point, only to have the person say "it ain't so, I have no proof otherwise, and I'm outta here because I scared to discuss it anymore".

I spent about 2+ hours of my time yesterday setting this up, when I should have been preping my quad for a race & helping my buddy tune his 400EX in for alcohol. Two things I would have much rather been doing than trying to prove a point to someone that won't listen to reason.

Rico - I understand that Jeff's one of your buddies and a great racer, at one of the top levels in the country. Unfortunately, riding skills have more to do with experience, lack of fear, physical endurance, and natural talent - these things don't necessarly mean that you understand all the nuances of front end setup and design.

Bill Ballance would be fast if he were racing a perfectly setup quad, or if he were racing one with all sorts of things out of whack. Heck, if quad setup problems were slowing him down enough that he were in 8'th place would you know that his talent allows him to race in 1st with the proper setup? Would you question his setup skills or just accept the fact that he's way fast? It's an irrational argument.

On the other side of that coin, there are a lot of people out there racing on great setups that aren't anywhere near the top 100 rank in the country. Does their racing ability reflect on their setup knowledge - not necessarily at all. What level does Mark Baldwin, Doug Roll, John Arens, or any of numerous other high profile "experts" race at? Sure, some like Mike Walsh race at pro levels, but many others do not.

Pappy - Yellow416 is correct - the reason I was not able to apply force beyond 31" is because it was trying to fold my upper control arm - that is a pretty expensive upper arm to fold only to prove a point to someone not willing to listen.

If some of you are still not clear how offset wheels affect single control arm and double control arms differently & why the leverage doesn't change (appreciably) on a dual control arm setup, I've rough sketched some drawings that illustrate it that I can post - it will take a bit of work to get them ready for posting on the net & my drawing skills are poor at best, but if it will actually do some good, I'll post them.

Modracer - moving weight around has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. We're talking about forces from the wheel acting upon the shock absorber - not the effects of moving weight, stagger, or anything else that applies to circle track or road course racing.

It doesn't make any difference if 80lbs of force is coming from a floor jack, or a rock you hit on the trail.

What was shown was that if 80lbs of force is applied directly at the spindle, the shock moves exactly the same amout as if 80lbs of force is applied 31" away from the spindle. Thus no additional leverage is applied to the shock.

If additional leverage were applied to the shock, the shock would have moved farther or it would have taken less than 80lbs to move the shock the same distance. This would have been exhibited if we were comparing stock arms to standard +2 arms.

The only change in leverage applied to the shock with offset wheels will come from the camber loss/gain - however, these differences are so small that they'd be hard to detect with equipment (yet alone seat of the pants) even with a ridiculous offset.

[Ben]

Wow - absolutely great information Gabe :D You taught me a great deal in this thread, thanks! :muscle:

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Ben
Wow - absolutely great information Gabe :D You taught me a great deal in this thread, thanks! :muscle:

maybe gabe can right you a book on how to assemble a quad:D correctly:devil: :blah:

[Ben]

No need to - I put one together from scratch, and then someone else had to fix the tiny mistakes I made, not me ;) I'd wager if you had to write a asset purchase agreement or will you'd not do it perfectly the first time either :eek: :D

hmm,..

[AlaskaSpeed]

Your powers of legal paperwork are no match for quad chassis physics....run and hide .............:D

[465Stroker]

Originally posted by Pappy
maybe gabe can right you a book on how to assemble a quad:D correctly:devil: :blah:

No doubt...:eek: Just the basics though...

Originally posted by Ben
No need to - I put one together from scratch, and then someone else had to fix the tiny mistakes I made, not me ;) I'd wager if you had to write a asset purchase agreement or will you'd not do it perfectly the first time either :eek: :D
tiny?? ..:confused:
glad it was saved :D

[Ben]

I find it interesting that a small handful of you, including a moderator, have decided to change the topic of this informative discussion to one titled "Can Ben build a quad from the ground up perfectly the first time?" Perhaps it is because you can only battle Gabe's and Guy's factual arguments with responses such as "You are wrong because I say so." :confused: I must say I am disappointed in your debating tactics of trying to change the subject when you are outclassed by the other side :blah:

[Pappy]

i was ribbing YOU ben, not trying to change the subject.....but i do find it interesting that a person with mechanical engineering schooling would allow or even make some of the mistakes i saw on the quad. yet im supposed to believe what that member posts to be factual?

i believe what gabe is saying....but i think there is more to the dynamics of this issue then a mere bathroom scale will show. and not to defend jeff but he is at the elka facility right now and im quite sure he will retrieve documentation to support his side of this.

i dont ride hard or fast enough to give a ratts butt about wheel offset....as do alot of the people here...but i do enjoy seeing good info debated from both sides.

as far as me bieng a moderator....i will ALWAYS speak my mind no matter what.....i wouldnt be me if i didnt:D

[Ben]

Originally posted by Pappy
i was ribbing YOU ben, not trying to change the subject.....but i do find it interesting that a person with mechanical engineering schooling would allow or even make some of the mistakes i saw on the quad.

Don't walk the line, pick a side ;) Who has mechanical engineering training? You must be talking about another quad because I sure don't have any mechanical training :confused:

[Pappy]

im quite certain you dont want me going into detail or naming names. im merely pointing out facts. i dont expect you to have the skills necassary to build a quad from scratch or the other person that helped you. and im not busting ball's either....but i think that taking sides is kinda petty on an issues such as this. if gabe is correct great...if jeff is wrong...i geuss he will learn from this too. you know me to be impartial on issues ...i dont have to back up a buddy just for the sake of backing him up. i dont have one issue with gabe....or anyone else in this thread. and i also dont have the knowledge to debate gabe or jeff or a few others that have posted here....but i do have the ability to ask questions and seek information which i have done. sometimes its better to ask stupid questions and keep people wondering if your an idiot...then to answer them and remove all doubt

Just ride the damn things.....:scary:

[86atc250r]

Riding them is great - having the knowledge to set them up better makes riding them more fun.

Pappy - sure there are a lot more things going on with a front end than what I can show with a bathroom scale, block of wood, floor jack, etc.

However, the question was do offset wheels affect the shock the same as +2 arms - that I CAN show with the primitive setup I had.

There are so many things affected by each setting a front end has, it'll give you a headache. My test was only meant to show that the shock sees the same amount of force against it regardless of wheel offset.

Fortunately many of these things aren't critical to the environment most of us ride our quads in. The important thing to know about offset wheels it they won't change your shock settings, they will increase feedback to the bars, and they will make it more likely for you to bend/break parts -- if you are running TT or flat track, there's more to it than that - but for general play/trail riding, MX, or XC that's about all you need to know.

For TT or Flattrack, the scrub produced by offset wheels can affect weight transfer to the opposite rear tire and maybe that's what Jeff is mistaking for increased leverage on the front shocks. Look into some karting websites for more details on how to setup your front for these types of events.

[Pappy]

gabe regarding your experiment....

maybe i read it wrong...but you said it took 80 pounds of force to move the shock 1 1/2 inches? will the measurement change past 1 1/2 inches as the main spring begins to work?

im just trying to find out if as the main spring compresses it would create a different set of values and affect the results?

[86atc250r]

Keep in mind that 80lbs of input force is being multiplied by the control arm's leverage before it transfers to the shock.

At 1 1/2" of shock travel it was working into the main spring a bit, I took all of the travel out of my ZPS spring and preloaded the others a bit before the experiment - I had to stop at 80lbs because it was transferring too much load to the upper control arm for my liking.

The ratios will work the same whether you're on a lighter 2nd spring, or a main spring - that's why I used the extreme offset example that I did - so it would show without question that even with an extreme offset that others were saying would make a huge difference, actually made no difference at all.

The only thing the main spring will change on either setup is you will be dealing with larger amounts of pressure that has to be applied to move the shock a given distance.

To do the experiment with more pressure, I'd have to change a few things, and use less offset - I felt 80lbs of input force across 1.5 inches of shock travel with a 31" difference in offset was more than sufficient to show that there was no change with either setup. If there were a change in leverage, it certainly would have shown up in grand fashion. I haven't done the math, but had I made +31 control arms, I would have likely come close to bottomming the shock with 80lbs of input force.

[boogiechile]

Wow, Last time I was here the thread was closed just as I tried to post, so I made a new thread for my post. Lots has been added since then. I just want to say that Gabe and Yellow416 have posted informative and most importantly CORRECT information. I was not liking the tone it was taking before it closed but it seemed to get back on track for the most part after reopening. Lets try to keep the name calling, flaming, smart*** remarks, and the like out of this and all post. I like a little humor once and awhile though, those post help relax things a little.

Pappy, As the shock compresses more it will transfer to the intermediate and then main spring and it will take more force to compress the shock then. With the experiment that gabe did though once you get to a point where the spring is stiff enough, the jack would have most likely just lifted the quad without compressing the spring any more. But if you tied the quad to the floor or added enough weight to it then you could see the force on the scale change (go higher) as the stiffer main springs came into play.

yeah...ive read the whoel thing and all i have to say is...who cares

[QuadTrix6]

Originally posted by freeride132
yeah...ive read the whoel thing and all i have to say is...who cares

thats a piss poor attitude, seems to me that this site is becoming more of a hangout then a place to get information. if your attitude is who cares, then why come to site ? i thought the purpose of the site is to get information ? :confused:

Originally posted by QuadTrix6
thats a piss poor attitude, seems to me that this site is becoming more of a hangout then a place to get information. if your attitude is who cares, then why come to site ? i thought the purpose of the site is to get information ? :confused:


lol yeah maybe to some of you that sit here everyday and argue over pep shocks and offset wheels instead of posting useful info, i dont wanna get involved in these dumb debates , what i said is i dont care, i dont come here to be involved in these lil soap operas you and your pals start thats not my reason for coming here so why would u say that? i think your an idiot for wanting me to care about these internet arguments

[wilkin250r]

I applaud you, Gabe, for excellent photographic proof. I would have liked to post similar proof, but I have neither the time nor patience.

There is one tragic flaw in Gabe's proof, in that it doesn't show dynamic changes and real-world riding conditions. In truth, there will be a small amount of flex in the wheel, spindle, and control arms, which all together can contribute to the forces acting on the shocks.

Also, offset wheels will affect the weight transfer of your quad as you brake into a corner, and it will affect the roll of your quad through the corner.

So, the original arguement was "Will offset wheels affect my shocks just like +2 a-arms" No, not at all, I think Gabe did an excellent job of showing that. The truth is, offset wheels affect your shocks in an entirely different way. If you want to get into all the details and nuances of it, offset wheels will actually even affect your REAR shock by changing the weight transfer and different dynamics of your quad. I think this was probably Jeff's point. Yes, offset wheels have some effect, but not the way most people are thinking, certainly not by adding more leverage.

[AtvMxRider]

Originally posted by wilkin250r

Also, offset wheels will affect the weight transfer of your quad as you brake into a corner, and it will affect the roll of your quad through the corner.



I will agree to that I noticed this weekend that my quad was pushing real bad in corners. This was only the second or third time I have ridden with the offset wheels. It didn't seem to do it the last time I rode but it had rained the day before and the ground was still kind of wet. But yesterday it was "Real" dry and slick.

Originally posted by AtvMxRider
I will agree to that I noticed this weekend that my quad was pushing real bad in corners. This was only the second or third time I have ridden with the offset wheels. It didn't seem to do it the last time I rode but it had rained the day before and the ground was still kind of wet. But yesterday it was "Real" dry and slick.

nah u just gotta learn to ride :ermm:

[Guy400]

Originally posted by Pappy
but i do find it interesting that a person with mechanical engineering schooling would allow or even make some of the mistakes i saw on the quad. yet im supposed to believe what that member posts to be factual?I want to know how the hell I got drug into the project quad and any mistakes made in it's original build. The implication is obviously directed at me. I was there for ONE afternoon. I set the frame on blocks, bolted the engine in, set the steering stem in place and loosely hung the swingarm. In fact, the swingarm bolt was only pushed through and did not have a nut on it when I was there. At the time I was there we had no a-arms, no shocks, no wiring harness and didn't even install the dogbone in the swingarm. I wasn't present for anything regarding brakes, sprockets, a-arms, shocks, wheels, etc. Hell, I never even heard the engine run so to drag me into this is BS. I didn't even tighten a single nut to it's fullest because we only had a small handful of the parts necessary to complete the entire quad and I didn't want to permanently mount a piece only to remove it again because it was in the way of something else. Please tell me where in the build I allowed something improper to happen when I left it all it was was a bare frame with loosely mounted engine that I didn't hear run, a swingarm that was just hanging from a bolt with no nut on it, and a steering stem with a set of bars on it.

[Pappy]

sorry guy...according to the magazine article you are credited with the build.

ben should understand fully that if the prosecution wants to call an expert witness then the defense has the right to challenge that witnesses credibilty:devil: :blah:

besides....you wouldnt blow up a new engine would ya:confused:

wow,...look at this thread now :eek:

:eek:

[AtvMxRider]

Originally posted by Guy400
I want to know how the hell I got drug into the project quad and any mistakes made in it's original build. The implication is obviously directed at me. I was there for ONE afternoon. I set the frame on blocks, bolted the engine in, set the steering stem in place and loosely hung the swingarm. In fact, the swingarm bolt was only pushed through and did not have a nut on it when I was there. At the time I was there we had no a-arms, no shocks, no wiring harness and didn't even install the dogbone in the swingarm. I wasn't present for anything regarding brakes, sprockets, a-arms, shocks, wheels, etc. Hell, I never even heard the engine run so to drag me into this is BS. I didn't even tighten a single nut to it's fullest because we only had a small handful of the parts necessary to complete the entire quad and I didn't want to permanently mount a piece only to remove it again because it was in the way of something else. Please tell me where in the build I allowed something improper to happen when I left it all it was was a bare frame with loosely mounted engine that I didn't hear run, a swingarm that was just hanging from a bolt with no nut on it, and a steering stem with a set of bars on it.


We don't beleive you Guy........:p

[Pappy]

i believe guy....its the rest of the smoke and mirror's im trying to figure out after i put MY name against someones credibilty:grr:

[Guy400]

I did install the footpegs and tried to help out as much as I could via telephone but it's hard sometime when I can't see exactly what the situation is with various parts.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Guy400
I did install the footpegs .

and they remain tight and functional:p

[wyndzer]

We still talking about a-arms and wheel offset:confused:

[Taco]

Originally posted by wyndzer
We still talking about buttplugs here? :uhoh: :scary: :eek2: