Another problem with the 416

[speedy400]

The motor Vibrates pretty bad at mid range, if i give her 3/4ths throttle it seems to get better and at idle its not bad, also the motor itself isnt running right.I just instaled my cam, piston and all the stuff that was needed for that process...-darren:confused:

[speedy400]

I have an XR gasket and forgot to mess with the timing, how do i do that, would that have been my problem?thanks-darren

[Kilabanshee]

PM YZROOSTINYA he will answer all ur problems with the 416's.

[speedy400]

bump???:confused:

[Castor-426ex]

re tighten the motor mounts especially the head stay

make sure you didnt get the cam gear out of time by a tooth re align the index marks per your service manual

[speedy400]

hmm, I took it apart and made sure of that everything seems to be right, it timing have to do with vibration?
-darren

[Castor-426ex]

you might have a counterbalencer problem

[speedy400]

thats what it feels like..... it feels like the piston is about 2pounds. :confused:

[speedy400]

The motor worked great before the kit. So I dont think its something in the bottom end.-darren

[F-16Guy]

A buddy of mine tried to install a 440 by himself. After more than a few beers and utter disregard for the service manual that was sitting next to him, he had a vibration too. Turns out, he forgot to bolt the cylinder down. The two 8mm bolts on the side held for about 5 minutes, and then BANG!! You did remember the cylinder bolts, didn't you??!!:devil:

[speedy400]

well I know I dont have any bolts left....I spoz I mines well start tairing it down again just to make sure:(-darren

[speedy400]

ok the motor is apart now, I have the head off. the cylinder bolts were only at 25lbs(spoz to be at 33) but that shouldnt've made that vibration. I knowtissed 2 of the outer valve springs are upside down(one intake and one exhaust). Would this cause the motor to not fire at the wrong time and and maybe make it seem to vibrate a lot?thanks-darren

[skemp]

Go back and check everything you did through the assembly. Pay special attention to the alignment of the cam sprocket on the timing chain. Also flip those valve springs over to the right way. If it still vibrates then, bring it to a shop. I personally have never heard of counterbalancer problems on an EX other than those that arise from other problems.

[flyin#5]

^do that.. then get your ***** up here! lol

[speedy400]

well I ripped it all apart changed the xr gasket to a 400ex moose gasket. and then I flipped the 2 springs, it runs much better but still vibrates more than before in the midrange.(I got it started and it started to make sounds like there was gas in the pipe and it was exploding in the pipe...... and then it died I think i flooded it) oh yeah also I readjusted the valves.....-darren

[speedy400]

update-I dont think its getting oil somewhere. I started it up and it ran perfect for about 5-8 secs.and the went back to vibrating and not running right, I think it might have been a old oil problem, the oil had about 20 hours before the rebuild and the filter had about 40 hours on that. so I think the oil might have just been to dirty and same with the filter. So I drained the old oil it was real dirty, I dont have new oil at the moment so I'll be trying again tomorrow.-darren

[skemp]

Still sounds like the timing is off. I really don't think oil is your problem. :ermm:

[YZROOSTINYA]

I pmed you.

It will shake more with a 416 but it is bearable.

the only thing the ex/xr gasket is going to do is change your compression.

ex is 10.5:1 and xr is 10.8:1. There will be NO differance in vibration.

Your timing is most likely off. Make sure there is tension on the cam when setting the timing,.

Is your piston is backwards?

The larger pockets on the Piston NEED to face the INTAKE side!

change your oil filter and oil.

[speedy400]

Well I'm out of ideas. The only one is that I have the valves switched around(the intake valves are on the exhaust side ...ect) the intake valves are the bigger of the 4 right? If I'm right I'm thinking I'll just keep riding it till it hopefully goes away.

[YZROOSTINYA]

you cant have the valves backwards. They wouldn't fit

it wouldn't run

there would be overlap on the intake/exhasut and a gap on the exhaust/intake

[UglyMotha™]

Originally posted by speedy400
Well I'm out of ideas. The only one is that I have the valves switched around(the intake valves are on the exhaust side ...ect)



if that was the case i don't think the bike would even run due to the fact that i don't think you would even be able to build any compression :confused2

[speedy400]

sounds like I'll see if I can ride the problem off, hope nothing breaks I have a 15yr old budget:( -darren

[speedy400]

oh yeah one more thing, the guy that bored my sleeve, he bored it .070 over I think he said. thats the right bore right?-darren

[UglyMotha™]

should have been 80 over, you should have check your ring gaps before assembled it

[speedy400]

OK, I called the guy up, he said he thinks it was alreddy 10 over when he got it(the guy before me rebuilt the engine and put a new stock piston in and new set of rings, he must've bored it and honed just a little bit) so it should be right.thanks-darren

[speedy400]

do you guys think it'd be a bad idea to just try and run in and see if it wears off or just spend some money for labor and take is to the honda dealership?

[F-16Guy]

Put your hands in the air and SLOWLY STEP AWAY FROM THE TOOL BOX!!!!!

[speedy400]

Originally posted by F-16Guy
Put your hands in the air and SLOWLY STEP AWAY FROM THE TOOL BOX!!!!!
aka- take it to the pro's?

[YZROOSTINYA]

where do you live?

how BAD is the vibration

[YZROOSTINYA]

maybe your flywheel is loose?

did you use your flywheel to turn over the motor?

[speedy400]

yes everytime I used the flywheel. I ended up turning it the wrong way a few times just a little bit because of it'd want to go the other way because of the pressure and I couldnt keep going with the wrench because of the shifter was in the way. It dosnt vibrate too bad, but jsut enough to know something isnt right thanks for all the help this morning guys!-darren

[speedy400]

st.peter MN(southern mn)

[YZROOSTINYA]

bring it to a shop to LOOK at.

dont pay for anyhting and ask if its all good

mine vibrates more than my buddies buts its not a big deal

[speedy400]

what should I ask them to look at?-darren

[UglyMotha™]

Originally posted by speedy400
what should I ask them to look at?-darren



tell them you have a lump on your breast :huh




or you could just tell them what its doin :confused2

[speedy400]

Originally posted by speedy400
what should I ask them to look at?-darren
lmao sorry, stupid question:huh

[YZROOSTINYA]

hhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaa


but doc,........ IT hurts:eek2:

[speedy400]

^haha, sounds like they cant even start looking at it till mid next week, I hate waiting. I spoz its my only option though.-darren:o

[WEEZIL]

my problem darren, is that i have a fourteen year olds budget...
Oh wait thats because i am 14 so save your money up this week to fix your bike and get cho ***** back on the trails even if it means not eating for a few days its worth it ;) lol

[skemp]

Your whole situation with the cylinder bore sounds like a screw-up to me. Somebody did something they shouldn't have. If it was a stock piston, they shouldn't have bored it at all. And it has to be .080 over. To me it honestly sounds like the guy that bored the cylinder shouldn't be boring cylinders at all. Definitely take it to a shop! Good luck man. Just do not run it any more. I can't imagine what it looks like if the bore was too tight. :confused2

[Flyin#3-1/2]

just say screw it darren, bore it all the way to 440:devil: you know you want to;)

or else sell it and get the new Honda:D

OR

You can buy my banshee as soon as it's back from the shop :D

mine vibrates more since i did 416, do you run a ac belly skid by any chance? i do and i noticed it causes more vibration, weird..

[UglyMotha™]

Originally posted by freeride132
mine vibrates more since i did 416, do you run a ac belly skid by any chance? i do and i noticed it causes more vibration, weird..



ya and alot of wierd noises i thought somthing was fubar'ed in my motor at first

yup makes odd noises and hums when your motor does diff revs then clatters, what i did was took mine off looked to see where it touched the frame and bought clear silicone and ran it along there and bolted it back up it took away some of the vibration u can also use weather stripping

[F-16Guy]

Your machinist sounds a little iffy to me. The bore size and piston-to-cylinder clearance should be clearly marked on the box for your piston (it was on my Wiseco). Did you give him the piston for reference when he bored the cylinder? You should disassemble the motor and have a different machinist verify that the bore size is correct and that the bore is square. If the machine work is good, it should only cost about $10 (if anything) to be looked at and $30 for a top end gasket set. Did you set the end gap on the rings? While it's apart, double-check it. If you don't know how to set the end gap, do a search, or PM me, I'll explain it step-by-step. Take your time, or you'll be buying an engine instead of a gasket set. Also, USE A TORQUE WRENCH!! As much as you'd like to think otherwise, an elbow can't be calibrated.

[speedy400]

ok, the bore situation- I think it was .010 over because of wear and the guy before me I'm guessing just honed it when he rebuilt it. And the sleeve seemed just perfect for the 87mm piston. I think he got that all right.

Its not rattling at all its just the motor just dosnt seem right and vibration is just too much for my liking. It'd be nice to have one of you guys live by me so I could show you. But I cant. Even a audio of it running would prolly show you guys a little what I meen....

freeride- only skid plate I have is the stock plastic belly skid and the moose swinger skid I've had on for a year.

flyin and skemp- If only it were that easy.



:(

[speedy400]

Originally posted by F-16Guy
Your machinist sounds a little iffy to me. The bore size and piston-to-cylinder clearance should be clearly marked on the box for your piston (it was on my Wiseco). Did you give him the piston for reference when he bored the cylinder? You should disassemble the motor and have a different machinist verify that the bore size is correct and that the bore is square. If the machine work is good, it should only cost about $10 (if anything) to be looked at and $30 for a top end gasket set. Did you set the end gap on the rings? While it's apart, double-check it. If you don't know how to set the end gap, do a search, or PM me, I'll explain it step-by-step. Take your time, or you'll be buying an engine instead of a gasket set. Also, USE A TORQUE WRENCH!! As much as you'd like to think otherwise, an elbow can't be calibrated.
hmmm
-I used a torque wrench.
-didnt touch the rings for gaping they seemed to be good
-I gave the guy that bored my cylinder my piston and box and everything he's got it right I'm sure.thanks again-darren(I'm determined to get this going:macho )

[F-16Guy]

Originally posted by speedy400
-didnt touch the rings for gaping they seemed to be good

They may be fine, but your rolling the dice when you take short-cuts like that.

[speedy400]

is there a wrist pin bearing that goes on the rod? I never saw one and never took one out, just making sure there arnt any on 400's-darren

[BigThumper33]

I think there are needle bearings in the rod... I think..

Sounds to me like you need to step away from the quad. No ring gap setting? Your asking for problems. I made the mistake of trying that with a warrior. Sure it went together fine...until it got hot and started trying to lock up on the cylinder.

You've never answered if your timing is correct...well is it?

My 416 doesn't vibrate any more than when it was stock...atleast I don't notice anything...

I'm sure piston slap can cause vibration too....better have that piston/cylinder miced out...

[speedy400]

timing
-its not perfect. If I move it over 1/2 a link it gets worse.So I left it just a little bit off.just a little bit off-when I got the cam sprocket perfectly lined up the t mark was about 1/4-1/2 off-darren

yzroostinya said thats normal. Thats why I didnt post it.

[skemp]

To set the timing, turn the flywheel over until it gets to the "t" mark, then align the cam sprocket marks with the head, and there should be one mark pointing upward. Then bolt in the cam with the lobes facing down. Just FYI.

I wish I lived a bit closer to you, bud. I'd bring over a case of beer and give ya' a hand with it. :) We'd figure it out. It is pretty difficult to describe what is going on without us being there. I know my EX's pretty darn good, but stuff like this can get confusing. They aren't that complicated, so all you need to do is take your time, and make sure you have done everything correctly. Honestly, it sounds like your timing is off, or your cylinder bore isn't correct. Maybe you have the cam sprocket lined up, but it's upside down... I wish I could be more help, but St. Peter is a good drive from here.

[YZROOSTINYA]

his timing is fine. the sprocket should have two horizontal lines that line that are parrallel with the head and one vertical line perpendicular with the head. cam lobes down.


His timing is fine

[F-16Guy]

I think a service manual would have been a sound investent in this case. With the level of experience demonstrated here, it would have been best to take your time, and go step-by-step through both the disassembly and assembly process. When you do it that way the first time, the correct procedure really gets etched into your mind. Good luck with your problem, though, I wish I could help more.:cool:

[Z400/400ex]

I agree with F16, Put the tools down and walk, no, make that RUN away!!!

You are obvious way in over your head! Take it to a reputable shop or find a friend who has experience.

But STOP before you do further damage

Good Luck!!!

[86atc250r]

Agreed. It's obvious that you do not have the basic knowledge required to properly assemble the engine - that's not a criticism, just an observation... Stop working on this quad and take it to someone with some experience - doesn't necessarily need to be a Honda shop.

You'll save yourself money in the long run at this rate.

[speedy400]

^ like I said before I will be taking it to a guy that works on quads for a living mid next week. I never said anything about working on it anymore...-darren

[YZROOSTINYA]

you gotta start somewhere

live and learn

although u probably could have taken a more logical approach, you didn't do too bad.

He asked me several questions beforehand/during/after and he has posted questions before.

its his quad and his money. take a dump on it if you want

[86atc250r]

True, he could light it on fire for all I care. However, it's obvious he's in way over his head & if he wants to save time, money, and effort, he should take it to someone with experience. Whether he sticks around to watch & ask questions to learn is his prerogative.

Sure, everyone's got to start somewhere, but diving head first into engine with little knowledge of even the most basic concepts of how an internal combustion engine works is not the way to start.

[speedy400]

dont say that with out knowing, I've rebult a banshee and ported and polished (exhaust side) and I messed with the jetting on that for a year by my self and a manual. And I rebuilt 2 other 2 stroke little engines and also I took apart 2 4-stroke little engines(could not be repaired the damage was too bad)-darren

[YZROOSTINYA]

do you have a manual?

speedy that is

[speedy400]

for my 400ex? yes

[86atc250r]

A monkey could do a top end on a 2 stroke....

All I'm saying is based upon your posts, you don't have a good feel for how the engine operates & that's not good if you're rebuilding. Take it to someone that knows, if you're interested in learning see if they'll let you stick around and learn from them.

[UglyMotha™]

trained or untrained :confused2

[speedy400]

Originally posted by 86atc250r
Take it to someone that knows, if you're interested in learning see if they'll let you stick around and learn from them.
I am.I've said that like 5 times.:huh -darren

[YZROOSTINYA]

Personally I think he is capable of rebuilding the motor just form the questions he has asked me.

The only QUESTION he really has here is why it is vibrating so much.

not everyone is gonna have all the answers the first time around.....

[UglyMotha™]

alright ya'll everybody take a step back from your computers lets not turn this into a heated match, it's bad enough that we got a couple brawling territorial chicks in the open forum that can't handle another working their turf :huh


:blah:

[YZROOSTINYA]

off to the open forum:D

[carlj75]

If I remember right, before you take the motor apart, you have to make sure its at TDC. But to take the cam sprocket off, you take the top bolt off, and then rotate the motor again to take the bottom bolt off, and then continue taking the motor apart.......When you start putting it back together again, the motor is not at TDC anymore. So, before you re-installed the cam, you would have to rotate the engine again to TDC while holding onto the timing chain, and then install the cam with the lobes facing down. Maybe you are 180 degrees off on the cam if you didn't rotate the engine back to TDC. Not sure if it would run like that but it's worth checking out.

[BigThumper33]

It does not matter if you take the motor apart on TDC or not...

All that matters is that it is on TDC when you allign the timing up again. The engine will definately not run if the cam is 180 degrees off.

[speedy400]

yes carl you are right about that. I'm not sure if it really matters but I just followed the manual. I'm guessing your suppose to to that so there is no pressure on the rockers. I don't really know why it'd make a diffrence but I did it anyways.
-darren

[speedy400]

Originally posted by UglyMotha™
alright ya'll everybody take a step back from your computers lets not turn this into a heated match, it's bad enough that we got a couple brawling territorial chicks in the open forum that can't handle another working their turf :huh


:blah:
thanks

[Bad Habit]

Hey Speedy,

Do you have the stock timing key or an advanced key? The only reason I ask is that I have a 6deg key in mine and it seems to run alot smoother than other 416s. I know you shouldn't run one with a modded motor, but it runs so good, I just left it in there. No problems with it running too hot (well, at least for a 400 that is:D )

I still can't get away from what you said about the bore. Maybe the guy did do it right but it just sounds a little iffy. The guy that bored mine said 80 over didn't mean chit. He only goes off the piston that is going to be put in because of slight, very slight, differences in manufacturing. Not all piston are exactly the same. And I trust this guys motor ability, he own one of the top racing cart shops in the country. It's insane what he can do with a little CR125 motor.
Maybe it's time to go ahead and make it a 425:D

Good Luck

[speedy400]

Originally posted by Yellow416ex
Hey Speedy,

Do you have the stock timing key or an advanced key?
no I do not, if the people pull off the flywheel I'll make sure to get one if I have a chance. Thanks for letting me know-darren