John Arens CRF/400ex frame

[Ex_Rider43]

john i would like to know a couple of things about this frame..

I know for sure that I can use the 400ex swingarm, stem fenders ect...

what about the subframe???

if I buy the frame ( thats what I will do) I will put a CRF motor in it but how hard wil it be?? the radiator?? do we have to cut and weld the tubes ect because thats what I dont want. I dont know I lot about the CRF conversion but with this frame it seems a lot easier.



thanks for responding.

[exriderdude]

i doubt you will have to cut and weld anything, i think thats whole reason he is making these, so you dont have to do that;)

[Pappy]

Originally posted by exriderdude
i doubt you will have to cut and weld anything, i think thats whole reason he is making these, so you dont have to do that;)

[400exBro]

when can we expect to see prices and when will they start selling,i am looking into buying one...

awhile back im pretty sure he said for the 400ex it would be 1200 for crf 2000

[Dave400ex]

The new frame will come with a subframe. To fit the CRF in there will be no welding. As you read below the EX frame will run around $1,250 and the CRF frame will be around $2,000 and include everything you need to mount the motor, a radiator, and a few others things. This frame will make the conversion very easy. I believe all you need besides the CRF frame is the motor, carb, and electronics.

[Doibugu2]

You on Arens payroll or something?

[Dave400ex]

Not really, I am just very happy with their products, prices, and service. I talked to John for a while at Red Bud and email a lot so I know a lot about his products. I will run Arens over anything else after seeing the quality of his stuff first hand...

[Doibugu2]

Originally posted by Dave400ex
Not really, I am just very happy with their products, prices, and service. I talked to John for a while at Red Bud and email a lot so I know a lot about his products. I will run Arens over anything else after seeing the quality of his stuff first hand...

I was just messing with ya. I kind of figured that from some of your other responses. John seems like a nice guy and a nice addition to the site.

[slosh13]

whats is Arens website? I wanna check out their site.

[MOUSE]

Originally posted by slosh13
whats is Arens website? I wanna check out their site.


http://www.arensbros.com/home.html

[bongwater200]

Originally posted by Dave400ex
The new frame will come with a subframe......... .

I'm not so sure on that. You might want to check and make sure. It seems to me that I've heard that the 400EX version will use a stock subframe (unless you order one seperately) but the CRF version will come complete.

Just something you might want to verify with Mr. Arens.

[MOUSE]

he told me if i bought one that i could use my stock sub frame or get one from him it was up to me, when i do get one i will use my sub for a while and will eventually get one from him as im sure it will be stronger than a stocker

[bongwater200]

I think the reason he'd doing it that way is because some people want to keep the stock location of the battery, and some want to move it elsewhere in the frame. That way he can avoid making more than one subframe for the same machine.

Also... the OEM subframes are DIRT CHEAP. I know he can't even build a decent one for what you can buy the Honda part for. Whatever he builds will surely be a better part, but at least you don't have to cough up quite so much cake right off the bat.

[Ex_Rider43]

there is a 400ex and a CRF version???:confused: I thought it was just 1 frame that you put the ex motor in it and IF you want to put a crf, it wont fit right in???

[bongwater200]

I think they'll be the same FRAME, with different motor mounts, spacers, etc, and radiator for the CRF option.

[Tommy 17]

they are the SAME frame... you can put either motor in... the 400 frame will have the rad mounts and the crf motor mounts 2...


the crf frame comes with the radiator, new air box stuff so u can mount the air box up, stuff like that... u can buy all that from arens when uw ant to put in the crf motor;)

[Jnine]

Hello guys:

You have it right... It is the same frame, and you won't have to do any cutting or welding to transfer from one motor to the other. There is no way I wanted you to have to cut out some tubes when making the switch. We already moved the tubes to accomodate the radiator, and in fact we are making a radiator for the CRF motor.

Bongwater is also right on the sub frame issue. We had to make it fit the stock subframe since that is what people already have. Also, the cost for the 400EX version will be around $1200/$1250.

We are working on the frames right now, and by the end of the week we can probably get you some pics.

Talk to you later.

[Dave400ex]

Thanks Bongwater for pointing that out because I remember reading about him making a subframe, but I never did read about it coming with it. I guess I just figured it would since most of the other aftermarket frames come with them.
This frame will be really nice and I can't wait to see some pictures and one of a EX that has it.

[400exBro]

deffently look forward to looking at one and seeing how it works...


also John, did you extend the frame?? i have seen on houser frame that are made for the hybird dirt bike engines that they have extended the frame to all more room for the rad and what not...

[NTPracing22]

How about a 250r frame? I heard somewhere that they were $1,800, if thats true, how come they are so much more than a 400ex? thanks

look at my thread called aftermarket frames, he explains it there, his r frames have been out for awhile i think,they were around 2-2500 i think not positive

[Tommy 17]

NTP i remember john sayin its how the frames are produced... the production costs on the 400ex frame are alot cheaper;)

i beleive he said in the other post the frame is cheaper because he has to compete with the oem frames being sold so cheap and there are no more oem r frames in production so he has to compete with lsr and all those guys prices...i think thats what he said i didnt look back

[slosh13]

I dont know about you guys, but I can't wait until i see the pics of Arens CRF/400ex frame. Its gonna be sic.:D I think thios just might make me do a conversion next season.:)

[NTPracing22]

freeride132 i beleive he said in the other post the frame is cheaper because he has to compete with the oem frames being sold so cheap and there are no more oem r frames in production so he has to compete with lsr and all those guys prices...


oh ok, that makes sence, thanks

[Jnine]

Hello Guys:

You are right about the 250R price.. They are $1850.. The reason the 400EX frame is quite a bit less ($1250) has a great deal to do with how Honda built both the 250R and the 400EX. Actually, after building the 250R and wrapping up so many hours, days, weeks, months, etc into getting them going, and seeing just the input costs on making them, I was not going to make any other model frames. I was just going to shift all manufacturing to only the other bolt on components like A-arms, stems, etc. The input cost on the 250R frame is well over twice that of the EX frame, mostly because I have to follow what Honda did. Here is an example:

Every time Honda wanted threads for a mounting point on the 250R frame, they specially machine a part, and then drill a hole in a tube to fit it in, and then weld it in place. That is expensive, and time consuming, and they did that everywhere! On the EX they only did that at the foot peg mounts. Also, our original 250R welding tooling was built for hand welding, and we can only weld just over half the frame with a robot. That makes the welding costs very high on the 250R. On the 400EX frame we were able to bring our welding costs WAY down. The materials of both frames are the same. In fact, since we are using a little bit larger diameter tubing on parts of the EX frame, the cost of the steel will actually be a little more. However, making the tooling was a little less expensive on the EX since from past experience we had a very good idea of how to do that efficiently, and how it would work best for production. We are also MUCH better at all the bracket and component work, and that helps bring the cost down too. The EX is just easier for us to produce, and it doesn't cost nearly as much in up front or production costs. If you are going to build 100 250R frames, you better start with $50K up front before you build the first one, and that assumes you have all the tooling and everything else ready to go, and have a lot of time to dedicate to it. And that is why I wasn't excited about taking on another frame project. Andrew and Kyle took a good look at it and realized we could do the EX frame quite a bit more efficiently however, and so this week we'll weld some for you...

Talk to you later!

[NTPracing22]

oohh ok. i understand now. 1850 is still a great price. same quality, (if not better) compaired to the competition.

What a lot of people don't realise, (which is supprising cuz its common sence)-when your selling a product, if your price is lower than the competition, you will get more sales because of the lower price tag. and keeping quality up will produce repeat customers, and a good rep.

[Jnine]

Hello again:

There is one thing about price that might surprise you, and I fight this all the time. As you know, our prices usually are quite a bit less than the other guys, but it's only because we do parts on larger production runs, which is more efficient. Our cost is less, so yours should be too! However, I get calls from quite a few guys who think that if the part does not cost as much as everyone else it must not be very good quality, or we're cutting corners. Just like at the start of this thread! The guys buddy thought we were cutting corners, when in fact I know we're going through more effort than the other builders. We're just more efficient. I will guarantee our fit and finish quality anytime. A part will never leave if it is not right or not the best we can do. Sometimes I almost have to raise the prices so guys believe it is a quality part however. Kind of strange isn't it?

It's kind of like the long travel A-arms. Everyone else is charging $800 to $1100. I want to sell them for less, but if I do I know I will lose sales because some guys will assume the high priced arms are better, only because of the higher price, when in fact everyones are made pretty much the same way, and with the same materials. However, once again, I KNOW we'll be using a few materials and doing a few things the other guys won't be doing, and I will guarantee they will work. I KNOW what they can do from the CAD model, and I also know nobody else can say the same thing. I can guarantee they will never bind simply from our CAD work, and they will come with a set of shock specs. The other guys??? Your guess is as good as mine, is as good as theirs... On the pricing, I have thought about running the price way up there like everyone else, and then offering a huge discount to racers or EXriders just to make people feel better. It's kind of a strange game in that way, and I hate playing it, but sometimes I have to.

Talk to you later!

JA

[NTPracing22]

Well I hope i can get more hours at my job so i can get a 250r frame from ya before the price goes up. Its sad to know that people use a pricetag as an indicator as to whether the quality of a product is higher or lower.

anyways, i tihnk i speek for everyone at exriders when I say that I know your products are highest of quality, with a great price which you don't see anywhere else. And we'll stand beside you with whatever choise you make about pricing.
Wes

[Jnine]

I wasn't saying I was going to raise any prices. Definitley not on the 250R or the EX frames. That post was mostly about A-arms.

[NTPracing22]

Oh my bad, I got the impression your were talking about the frames. Never the less, you see my point;)

[Dave400ex]

It's crazy that guys choose their parts by the price. I agree with NTPracing22 and if guys pay more for the stuff that is the same or worse quality, let them.

[JOEX]

Mr. Arens,

I sure hope you don't "stoop" to the level of raising prices just increase sales and get your name and products to the "household name" level. If you have the confidence in the quality of your products to be better than the competition than i'm surprised that you even mention increasing prices just to be competitive. That will come in due time as with any product.

It may take some time to "prove" your products can withstand the abuse of actual riding to the general riding public which i'm sure you know. Once that happens along with your attitude toward customer service, you and your company will be at the top in no time.

Joe

[400exBro]

Mr. Arens:


I am wondering what kind of warrenty do you keep on your parts?? and do you stand behind it if it ever would fail??

i am asking becuase a local racer has had all but bad luck with your frame, it is a 250r frame that is used to race mx, it holds a 330r or 310r i believe... he has cracked the frame in several places and had to have them rewelded, he is not to happy about it either... Now if that ever would happen to your crf/ex frame what would we expect from you?? would you help us reweld it and fix the problem or just say no, the frame was abused becuase i was jumping it??
i am asking becuase i want to make sure when i buy your frame i will not run into this problem...

BTW- i am not dissing arens products in any way, i just wanted to ask....

[NTPracing22]

I sure hope you don't "stoop" to the level of raising prices just increase sales and get your name and products to the "household name" level

JOEX- I don't think his reason for raising prices is to become a household name

[Jnine]

Hello Bro:

I am wondering about the frame you say cracked that the other person owns. We have made the frames with the same materials and in the same way for 5 years, with the only changes being minor ones for manufacturing purposes. In fact, I can't make changes even if I wanted to. I have to make them so a guys stock parts bolt on, because that is what everyone already owns. (or has bought aftermarket parts for). Still, I do wonder what happened to the one you are talking about. There is really nothing we have done differently from the ones we built 5 years ago, to the ones we are building tomorrow. In fact, it is even the same set of welding fixtures. It is possible to break anything however. I know that and so does every frame builder. There are a couple things that I know can be very bad for all of your components.. It is absolutely critical that you have your shocks working... Shocks bottoming WILL transfer the load to other components, and that WILL break parts. The other thing to remember is to ride smooth... If you pound your quad into the ground by flatlanding every jump, your quad will have problems. If you watch the pros, they are very fast, but most of them are also quite smooth. That's very important, and it's a lot easier on your body also. Anyway, on to the shocks. There are some lower quality aftermarket shocks that can be a problem as well, but most of the high end ones will work as long as you have them setup correctly. As far as the person you know and his frame, I don't know the situation, and without all the details I can't tell you what happened. There was one person this spring who attempted to make his own "pro-peg" setup, and after cutting the foot pegs out discovered why that was not possible, but as you asked thought, I have never walked away from anyone who had a legitimate problem. Then again, they never call me anyway.

[slosh13]

I am wondering what kind of warrenty do you keep on your parts?? and do you stand behind it if it ever would fail??

I am also wondering this b/c I am really interested in your products and before i buy i want to know if im gonna get a warranty or help if something would break, bend, etc. thats all.
thanks.:)

[bongwater200]

I think pretty much everyone has SOME kind of warranty on their products. I'm sure if something cracks on the Arens chassis or any other one for that matter, and it has anything to do with workmanship or material problems, they'll help you out.

I do, however, think that when someone sends their frame back with the shock mounts twisted right off it from thrashing on it with crappy or blown shocks, that it isn't the manufacturer's fault. In that case, I would expect the owner to have to pay to cover the costs of any repairs.

The guy who built the frame can guarantee many things, but he can't guarantee the quality of your suspension or the ability of the rider. Honestly, I think most frame problems are caused by crappy shocks.

[slosh13]

well said:p

[400exBro]

Originally posted by bongwater200
I think pretty much everyone has SOME kind of warranty on their products. I'm sure if something cracks on the Arens chassis or any other one for that matter, and it has anything to do with workmanship or material problems, they'll help you out.

I do, however, think that when someone sends their frame back with the shock mounts twisted right off it from thrashing on it with crappy or blown shocks, that it isn't the manufacturer's fault. In that case, I would expect the owner to have to pay to cover the costs of any repairs.

The guy who built the frame can guarantee many things, but he can't guarantee the quality of your suspension or the ability of the rider. Honestly, I think most frame problems are caused by crappy shocks.


are you calling elka crappy?? he runs elka front and rear, and he knows what he is doing, i am not sure of this but i believe someone else had it before... i know he goes through this site sometimes, hopefully he will see this, he will reply and say what excalty has cracked and were...

[bongwater200]

Elka isn't any crappier than any other shock that has oil running out of the seal head.

[slosh13]

I hope my shocks arent considered crappy for the new Arens CRF frame. :confused: I have TCS triple rate '0' preload front and rear shocks. My friend has brand new Elkas and these are an awesome bang for your buck. Very good quality shock, plus no offense to any shock makers, anything is better than stock:devil:

[thomas]

Hi JNINE
My name is Thomas and race pro in Canada, I owned the 6000 mile frame. I bought it from Allen (CT). Looked great, no dings or scratches. I sold the bike last year and the guy loves it. My frame had the cross tube above the swing arm and my friends which was mentioned above does not (newer model,2001 I believe)
My frame only developed hairline cracks under the upper front shock mounts. I ran PEP limited MASS for 1 year and Elkas for the second. By the way this bike led the Montreal Supercross until the second last lap and finished second!! Behind Plante!!
My friend is lighter than I and ran the same shocks. His frame is an absolute disaster!! It cracked above the swing arm mounting plate, around the foot peg mounts, subframe tabs, bottom motor mount, the pipe going up to the front shocks and then some. We ride the same tracks and both have 330s, go figure? Number 1 , Richard Pelchat and #2, Kevin Allard, also ex #1 Sylvan Boulard all run Arens Frames!! They are great frames!! But I know Richard Pelchat had to weld his around the foot pegs and under the Rad ( the pipe going up behind the rad).
From what I've seen, I think you need to add a brace on an angle down from the upper front shock mount, like the Lonestar, this would eliminate a lot of these stress cracks!?!?
I have seen an Arens frame at ECATV that had this mod done.
What do you think???
Hope this helps, no bad blood please, any frame breaks even Leager, Roll etc
Yours truly, Thomas

[bongwater200]

Really, it goes beyond having blown shocks, or cheap shocks. You can have the best shocks on the market, and if they're setup wrong, you can still do damage to your frame.

Maybe your shocks aren't blown, but they're too light and bottom out a lot. Maybe your shocks are valved or sprung too stiff, and they're passing a lot of vibration and stress into the frame. Any of these situations can crack your frame if they go on long enough.

If you talk to any of the chassis builders, be it John Arens, Mark Laeger, Herrmann, Houser, or anyone else, I bet they'd tell you that most of the problems that they see with a frame are suspension related. Another biggie is when someone rides a race like he's trying to screw Matt Coulter out of his world record leap! Flatlanding and overshooting jumps will also kill a frame.

Ride smart and keep your shocks fresh. Thats the best advice you can get for keeping your frame from cracking. Lets face it, we ALL ride hard. This stuff is GOING TO BREAK sooner or later, I don't care who built it. But when you find a small crack in your aftermarket frame.... before you all and ***** out the guy who built it, just remember all the weekends spent welding on your stock frame!

[Dave400ex]

Man you guys that are cracking aftermarket frames must be very hard on stuff. I have been racing XC with a stock frame and haven't seen or noticed any problems with my frame. I also have aftermarket Elka's so I'm sure that helps. I agree with Bongwater that most problems come from the shocks ran, how they are setup, or how the rider rides.

[Jnine]

Thats great to know about all the top guys in Canada. ACtually I was going to get Richard (Pelchat) a new "R" and a new EX frame this year. I have't heard what he is up to lately. I do want to see what East Coast is adding however.

ON to shocks. I think ELKAS are great, as are TCS. Both great quality. Just make sure they are set up correctly and are working like they should, but that goes for any shock. It's just that some never really do WORKS. Can't say which ones I don't like to WORKS with however.

I did have one guy who claimed a problem last year, and I had him send his back in to look at. I should have never agreed to the things I did then however. As soon as I got it back, I could tell he was bottoming BAD! ON the rear tube that holds the upper shock mount, he was actually bending and collapsing the tube! I asked him about his shocks, and then he said: "Well, I do bottom it quite a bit!: NO ****! How is your back? I then called his shock guy who told me he hadn't had them in for service in over 2 years! I was really sorry I agreed to sandblast and repowdercoat his frame for free, but I did it for him as I agreed to, and then I had to pay shipping to get it back to him. Oh well, live and learn!

[jamiesel]

Thanks for the response John. Any shock models/brand you actually think is best?

[400exBro]

Thomas isn't hard on his stuff, he takes real good care of his machine, he has build some extremly nice ones too, Cough cough Lonestar KTM 450, that thing rips!!!

on side note, everything will eventually go, nothing is indistricable...

[slosh13]

jnine-



Thanks for the response John. Any shock models/brand you actually think is best?

[Mxbubs]

All postings in this threads are worthless without pics.....We want pics John!

HAHAHAHAHA....just kidding, but pics would rock.:D

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Dave400ex
I agree with Bongwater that most problems come from the shocks ran, how they are setup, or how the rider rides.

me too.

i cringe at the races watching c and b class. even a class when the rider is really not getting to the downside. all ya hear is a thud:(

i reckon we just need as a group to start correcting these people that blame the equipment first:p

[Guy400]

Originally posted by Jnine
It's just that some never really do WORKS. Can't say which ones I don't like to WORKS with however. LMFAO.....which shock company don't you like to WORKS with again?? :D

most c riders dont even know how to prepare to case a jump they let the whole machine take the blow, lean forward let the rear wheels clip it but not so it sends you over the bars they just go full blast into the face and bottom there suspension its terrible


jnine i got some more questions, are your upper shock mounts "gusseted" or is that necessary, i really dont know but i got my stock frame gussted there and it holds up alot better, and is the swingarm pivot aarea beefed up?

[slosh13]

jnine-

im getting kinda antzy here...........so when are we gonna see some pics of the CRF frame???? thanks:D