proper shock set up

[Pappy]

ok....there seems to be a few zillion experts here who always have more then thier 2 cents to throw in on shock issues....so i figure one of you fella's could explain the proper way to adjust shocks. it doesnt matter what brand you have ....just tell me the best and proper way to set them up for your type of racing.


and i geuss if i dont get alot of responses we can start eliminating experts:scary:

you talkin about springs or skocks pappy????


ROFLMFAO

[MOFO]

I like this thread already. Lets just keep it "informative" about adjustments and such.... no brand X vs brand Y. I would like to learn myself....

I might be buying some shocks this winter and would like to know the in's and out's...

[Pappy]

well im by far an expert on shocks (springs included..lmao) but im so sick of seeing people trash out any shock company they dont use so i figured id see what we know as a collective group.

i figure if someone is telling me one shock is better then the other because if reason xyz then that same person should tell me why and the proper way to set them up. i mean it cant be possible that a poorly set up shock can be better then a properly set up shock no matter what brand? or am i wrong?








dont get all pissy either...im gonna play both sides of this issue because i want to learn something here.

[bmw500hp]

Originally posted by Pappy
ok....there seems to be a few zillion experts here who always have more then thier 2 cents to throw in on shock issues....so i figure one of you fella's could explain the proper way to adjust shocks. it doesnt matter what brand you have ....just tell me the best and proper way to set them up for your type of racing.
and i geuss if i dont get alot of responses we can start eliminating experts:scary:

Excellent question! besides predator and a handful of others no one has really stepped forward and offered fellow riders there expertise in this area.

One could venture a guess that "the students are willing but the teacher is yet to appear" :(

I for one would be amused at the armchair expert and all ears to someone willing to share some useful, practical information. :)

[Pappy]

right on bmw....

i learn or try to learn something new every day....so i hope someone will pony up the correct or atleast some informative info.....but i have my doubts:ermm:

[Doibugu2]

Since when do we come here to learn something?


Would be nice to know. Jeff adjusted mine a tad and helped alot.

I bolted mine up and ride.. skeeert ta touch the setting,,might make it handle bad....:(

[Pappy]

well i know that rick (465stroker) has more then his share of expierence with the way he was taught by axis to set up suspension. same with jeff at the quadshop with the elkas and just about every brand ever made.


im sure they will chime in when the time is right.

i just have a feeling that the ones crying the loudest know the least:ermm: i reckon its put up or shut up

[465Stroker]

Originally posted by Pappy
well i know that rick (465stroker) has more then his share of expierence with the way he was taught by axis to set up suspension. same with jeff at the quadshop with the elkas and just about every brand ever made.


im sure they will chime in when the time is right.

i just have a feeling that the ones crying the loudest know the least:ermm: i reckon its put up or shut up

Lesson #1: The correct way to spell PEP is P-E-P not A-X-I-S......:eek2:
Ya wanna know how I set up every set? Check out Predator36's thread on suspensions setup - and that's it! Most shock builders do not have the time to go over and explain every aspect of proper setup as Predator36 laid out in his suspension thread unfortunately. Though if you read his post and take those measurements to your shock builder and they want to listen - you will be 75% further right out of the box.

[Pappy]

hahaha sorry rick i had to BAIT you in:devil: :blah:

i know its lengthy but what tips do you have for the average rider in setting up shocks. :confused:

[Zingnut]

I am no expert but I base my starting point off this page. Then I tweak the settings to where it feels the most comfortable during aggressive riding.

Shock Setup (http://extremegarage.com/techtips/stechtip.htm)

I also change out or swap around the crossover rings in the front suspension to get the best ride out of them. It took me 3 months of riding and messing with the suspension to get where I feel I have it tweaked perfectly to my riding ability.

[RiPPiNiTuP7]

I use this page for my guide:

http://www.atving.com/editor/review/accessory/shocks/pep/shocks.htm

I go out...start riding....see how it does....bring it in...start tweaking with the adjustments. Take for example I was out at my buddies track last week, and I kept bottoming out off the bigger jumps, so I decided to make the compression harder. Took it out, and it helped alot. Then I noticed I was bouncing around, blah, blah in the whoops, so I speeded up the rebound. What do ya know? It helped alot too. Theres really not a way to know if their absolutely perfect, so I just keep tweaking them until it feels best to me, and call it a day. Like someone else said, I am by no means a shock expert either, but I know enough to get myself by.

[Pappy]

what shocks are you running rippinitup7?

[RiPPiNiTuP7]

Originally posted by Pappy
what shocks are you running rippinitup7?

lmao, stock for now :( cant even adjust the fronts really :scary:

[Pappy]

zingnut...ive seen that type of set up used in person and understand it. thanks for the link.

rippin.....thats a good explaination of what the 3 most common terms regarding shock terminology but yet no advice on what the best way to physically set up the shocks is.


im developing the opinion that if you dont have a person setting up the shocks from the factory the proper way then yer pretty much on yer own. as rick said...IF you can find someone to listen to your measurements and use them to set them up...im assuming thats valving also. does this mean that one should order the shocks and then take the measurements...then send back the shocks to be set up using those measurements? or did i completely misunderstand 465stroker?

i run works.. im looking at tcs, elka, and pep i dont know which to get i know how to get my shocks setup for how i ride but i dont know all the technical stuff heres what i do

sit on the quad check out how much sag i got if its ok i leave it alone then i bounce up and down and see how the compression feels and the rebound take it for a spin if it bottoms or feels too soft i go up on compression ride it again if it has too much rebound i slow it down i can tell because it will kick the back high, if im going up the face of a jump and i feel the shock compressing too much i might stiffen it a lil or slow the rebound down because when it rebounds it like preloading and throws you higher plus my frame scraps so i go up on the compression to stop that then just feel it out along with th rebound, im no wizard but i can make my shocks work good enough for me

[wyndzer]

Originally posted by RiPPiNiTuP7
I use this page for my guide:

http://www.atving.com/editor/review/accessory/shocks/pep/shocks.htm

I go out...start riding....see how it does....bring it in...start tweaking with the adjustments. Take for example I was out at my buddies track last week, and I kept bottoming out off the bigger jumps, so I decided to make the compression harder. Took it out, and it helped alot. Then I noticed I was bouncing around, blah, blah in the whoops, so I speeded up the rebound. What do ya know? It helped alot too. Theres really not a way to know if their absolutely perfect, so I just keep tweaking them until it feels best to me, and call it a day. Like someone else said, I am by no means a shock expert either, but I know enough to get myself by.

How did you make all these adjustments with stock shocks?

[RiPPiNiTuP7]

Originally posted by wyndzer
How did you make all these adjustments with stock shocks?

rear obviously....its compression/rebound adjustable. i was just using that as a small example of how i mess with my shocks.

[Pappy]

freeride...i take it you run pro series works....:confused:

naw at steelers, i was talking about my rear shock, my fronts were done my christian paul motorsports, he used a different oil that works alot better and revalved them..not much you can do with em tho, what i posted was how i setup my rear, im looking at elka, tcs, pep, for a set of fronts and a rear conversion

[RiPPiNiTuP7]

Originally posted by Pappy
rippin.....thats a good explaination of what the 3 most common terms regarding shock terminology but yet no advice on what the best way to physically set up the shocks is.

i guess im stupid, cuz im not sure exactly what your looking for....care to go a bit more into details? maybe i can answer your question better then.

[wyndzer]

Doesn't speeding up the rebound make the shock extend quicker? Thus making the ride bumpier?

if u speed up the rebound the shock will rebound faster meaning after full compression the shock will extend all the way faster, when u slow it down it does that slower

id say quicker rebound would make it rougher in the bumps depending on how the compression is set too much rebound or too lil reboudn makes it rough if your shock is doing too much its gonna be bouncing you and if its rebounding slow it will almost be like having no suspension, you gotta find the right spot

Man pappy you don't know how to set up shocks you must be stupid! Just by Performance engineered products, There shocks come set up ready to go ight out the box. so do penski racing shocks. Bu if you buy one of the other brands (LIKE I DID AND LOVE THEM) spend an entire day riding on them making many adjustments documenting every thing you do and how that effects the ride. This way yu actually know what each adjust ent does. a chock that is too soft may fel stiff cus it bottoms out too easy. like I said take you time, write every adjustment you make and comments on that adjustment. I mean go from as soft as they go to as stiff as they go. Then change the the preload and do it again. this should help you get a good feel of your own shocks. and you should be able to fine tune them better from there. By the way I was just playing around I am not knocking any bran o shock.

[wyndzer]

Originally posted by RiPPiNiTuP7
I use this page for my guide:

http://www.atving.com/editor/review/accessory/shocks/pep/shocks.htm

Then I noticed I was bouncing around, blah, blah in the whoops, so I speeded up the rebound. What do ya know? It helped alot too. I am by no means a shock expert either, but I know enough to get myself by.

Just wondering?

i know what you mean pappy thats how i setup my rear which is basically the same as setting up any shock from my own expirence im not good enough to setup tim farrs shocks or nothing like that im just saying thats how i do mine and they work for me so i cant be terrible at it, i see alot of people who want stiffer suspension and crank down the spring and then they wonder why the shock beat its self apart

[Pappy]

well i just wanted some info and im getting it. but i figured that with the amount of highly educated shock efficianados we seem to have here id have gotton the skinny by now.

i understand the entire shock set up process....and im pretty sure the adjustment procedures are fairly standard. im just figuring theres something more to it because if you ever jump on a A class racers quad or pro's ride they surely feel a bit different then any other shocks ive riden on.

ikm lucky enough top have a few close friends that will take care of me but maybe some arent so lucky and could get some tips from this thread.



and btw....thx for not turning it into a this shock is better thread:)

i think different riding styles and people adapt to there setups that work for them and learn to go fast on them

[Pappy]

Originally posted by freeride132
i think different riding styles and people adapt to there setups that work for them and learn to go fast on them

well i geuss that could be but.....

if you have never riden on a set of properly set up shocks for whatever particuliar riding you do...then i think that statement is invalid. adapting to shocks that are subpar wont cut it with me:p

i see your point and i knew that but with decent ability any riders talent will shine through hopefully they know someone with shock setup knowledge


i jsut expirement with different combinations and use the one that works the best


:ermm:

ive read books and so on about setups and i found the best way is too spend time paying attention to how your shock is working over different terrain but id like to know more too, can always learn something new...:macho

Would I get more power from a FMF pipe or DG???????:confused:

[MOFO]

Originally posted by Rico
Would I get more power from a FMF pipe or DG???????:confused:



FMF, but I'm still wondering how I should jet my 400 for a FMF pipe.... that is the question. ;)

[QuadTrix6]

:D


For a basic shock setup you want to start with ride height. First start out by putting your quad on a stand and measuring the distance from the axle to a fixed place on the frame ( like the grab bar). Then take the quad off the stand, put on all your gear and sit on the bike in a natural riding position and take another measurement. You should use up about 30% of your travel in this sag. If after you set this up and you get off the bike and the spring tops with no sag that means you are going to have to change springs to a stiffer one bc you were running to much preload to compensate for the soft spring. Your sag with no rider should be only about 5% of your travel. A stock 400EX has 9.1" of rear travel. Your ride sag with rider should be around 2.73in more or less depending on setup. ( on MX you may want more sag for handleing were as GNCC may want less sag for clearance).

Now to set up front suspension sag. You want to do the same thing with the bike off the ground and then when you sit on it. The only difference is now you want to have 20% of the travel for sag. A stock 400ex has 8.2" of front travel so sag should be 2.46". Depending on how much travel you get with your a arms and shocks will determine the sag. Shocks with more travel can have more sag. So aftermarket shocks will run more sag and have more travel.

Next is setting up compression. Compression controls how much force it takes to compress the shocks.Compression depends on what type of riding you do. Motocross and supercross may require stiffer suspension while harescrambles, trails and GNCC will require a softer more plush ride. What you want to do is set up the compression so you use all the travel of the shock without bottoming out hard or just barely bottoming. With the setting too soft the suspension will feel mushy and setting it to hard the shocks will feel harsh and you will feel every little bump you hit because the shock isn't absorbing anything. To get a proper compression setting put the shocks on full soft. Gradually ride faster and adjust the shocks so they are not mushy and absorb the bumps. Keep going untill you nake several adjustments and reach your riding level and have the proper compression. it is okay if you bottom on the biggest jumps you do. You want to use all of your travel for the best ride, but dont let the shocks get beat up or damaged.

After you do compression you can adjust the rebound. Rebound controls how fast the shock returns after being compressed. A soft rebound means faster and hard rebound dampning rebounds slower. There are 2 ways to set up the rebound. First find a nice set of whoops. You can either start on full soft or full hard and go through the whoops at a slow pace. Gradually go faster and then adjust the rebound untill you dont get bucked or the shock doesnt pack up. Then go faster and faster while making adjustments untill you reach your riding speed through the whoops with the correct rebound where you dont get bucked or the shock doesnt pack up. Packing up is when the shock hits a bump compresses and then doesnt get to rebound before hitting the next bump and eventually you have no more travel.

That is a basic way to set up your shocks but specific applications will need different tuning.Big indoor Supercross tracks or freestyle riders will need much stiffer shocks from the big jumps and perfectly groomed non rutted tracks and smooth ramps but would not be good on the out door mx tracks because they can not handle the ruts and little bumps with out being very harsh. GNCC quads will need softer compression to soak up the rocks and roots and be plush.

I hope i have helped you guys and by the way I have a funny feeling a lot of the negative comments in this thread were aimed at me. :ermm:

[250exen]

Originally posted by Rico
Would I get more power from a FMF pipe or DG???????:confused:

rico, from what i hear, coffee cans are the absoulte best muffler money(what?$3.50?) can buy:rolleyes: :huh

ohh and pappy, id explain but.. umm well im absoultly clueless on this subject:bandit: :chinese:

[Rip_Tear]

Wow lots of good info so far! I think the only way your going to set up the shocks just right is by constant adjustment and playing with the settings for your riding style etc, and if you can get the shocks set up (factory, oils etc) the better your chances of setting them up. But everyone is different and everyone likes their setup just that little bit different. Good luck!

[Pappy]

Originally posted by QuadTrix6
:D



I hope i have helped you guys and by the way I have a funny feeling a lot of the negative comments in this thread were aimed at me. :ermm:

nice copy and paste:) its the same info basically that predtor36 gave in his posts.

i was looking for what OUR members know....explained by them. i figure that way those that know thier chit would come to the top...and the others would pretty much drown out. the info you provides was veryu factual but proves my point...thx:)

[QuadTrix6]

Originally posted by Pappy
nice copy and paste:) its the same info basically that predtor36 gave in his posts.

i was looking for what OUR members know....explained by them. i figure that way those that know thier chit would come to the top...and the others would pretty much drown out. the info you provides was veryu factual but proves my point...thx:)

where is this in predators post cause i can assure you that i did not even look at it !!

[QuadTrix6]

predator is talking about taking your wheels and tires off, measuring compressed and extended shock lengths putting your quad on blocks, measuring wheel bases and i did not say anything about that i gave basic information about shock setup

[Pappy]

its not the fact that someone can read and learn from a higher educated source (thats how we all learn) but the fact remains that comprehension of these set techniques and being able to explain them by yourself is what i was looking for. i have respect for the kid with stock shocks throwin HIS info in because it was from HIS own expierences...not copied from a web page somewhere. no offence to you quadtrix...and i assure you its nothing personal....im just calling out that those that either know it...or dont:)


btw....id suggest noone contradict predator36 too bad:p im sure he is more then capable of handing us are arse with correct info..lol;)

[250rpilot]

this is all i know about shock setup-

i dunno chit about shock setup:bandit:

Originally posted by Rico
Would I get more power from a FMF pipe or DG???????:confused:


well since either of them improve hp and the fmf sounds better and looks better id get fmf:blah:

[bmw500hp]

:D Now this is turning out to be a good thread, so far we have reviewed Compression and Rebound and believe me, the cut and paste has started on my end, as well as notes. Much thanks to stroker and quadtrix for the direction on sag.

Now, I am going to use my shock brand to ask this question and by no means does it mean I am a proponent of my brand. As a matter of fact we will call my shocks brand x.

Now, again we have reviewed both comression and rebound. In addition we have reviewed setting the proper ride height.

Now, we need to addres spacer plates. When I purchased my shocks I did nothing to them in regard to spacers. The shocks were off an older distict 5 champions quad. They were extremely stiff. During my rebuild this week, my bud and I decided to start removing spacers. Some from the red and some from the white...WOW now my ride is smooth! WAY WAY BETTER, BUT here is the question....?????????

How did he know which ones to remove? There are literally infinite combinations of spacer plates. Even if the shocks were supplied with the correct springs the spacer amount and placement seems just as important. Each having a specific effect on some aspect of the ride.

My shocks are testamonial to the fact that incorrect spacers will TOTALLY screw up the springs working in unison. I have suffered all this time thinking the springs were too stiff when if fact it now seems like incorrect spacers either too many or the wrong combination of both.

Now it seems that adding or subtracting the plates will change the progression of force in relation to each other and when this force is transmitted to the next..

HOW THE HELL am I supposed to be able to fine tune this area of the shock...How is anyone to learn this. It is all fine and good if a well known person blesses you with the magic formula but what of the rider who purchases used and wants to attempt to do this yourself....Now there are plenty of 190 lb light mx/xc riders that ride the ex and use this shock. there should be something in print as to spring number, selection and spacer placement to acheive proper crossover rate? At least a starting point?

Me and my bud through some trial and error made significant improvements...there has to be more...clip placement effects spring tension and all the related areas but spacer placent and size obviously effects the spring transfer rates.. HOW DO WE UNITE THE 2 ADJUSTMENTS AND IN WHAT ORDER?

I would like to hear some responses from others as to experience with changing the crossovers and adding subracting spacers and the relation of these adjustments.

[Pappy]

bmw...at the wisp race i rode my quad over to jeff and 465stroker and let them fell the rear shock. before i knew it the quad was on its side and both were pointing to an upper spacer in the rear shock. both agreed that it needed to be removed. now i can sumize that they have vast expierence with this because i could have ate a pound of peanut butter before i would have ever guessed that was part of the problem:ermm:

i too wanna know what determines spacer hieght and placement. im assuming it has to do with when one spring transfers energy to the next spring. are there other size spacers available? and are they used to help dial in shocks or was it just a fluke:confused:


btw...glad ya got the copy and paste thing:rolleyes: some didnt. save the info while ya can because i think thjis is the longest shock thread without bashing...lmao

Great thread guys!

I have been getting some heat (from the people I ride with) over my new obsession of dialing in this suspension and understand only too well what you mean there Kenny.

Its tough when you know its just not 100% but when others that you ride with take a lap on your machine and come back looking like :D and think your nuts. Sure it rides great but I know (like many of you) it could be that much better too.

First thing I do is seperate it into two parts.
1. Suspension set up (spring rates, ride height, preload, valving and spring spacers).
2.Fine tuning (compression and rebound adjustments, and maybe preload again lol)

Its tough enough apparently so I dont want to make it any harder than it is and breaking it down seems to help a little even if only mentally. :)

Now where to get the info is as tough as applying it and it seems like there is some unknown code among the people with the know how not to share it, and yes I am serious.

Since I have set up a couple of two wheelers in the past I had approached the quad the same basic way (free sag v/s race or rider sag and then looking to diff spring # if it wasnt rite etc). It worked fairly well at first but after talking with some more knowledgable people with quad set up I had found that there is an issue with a quad being more like a car or truck than a motorcycle and needing different set up to work properly.

Well this is where things get interesting for sure. If you condense the info from predator36 thread or even the info on Axis's web site or the info supplied by pep (as posted by quadtrix) you see how its more about ride height and how it relates to free and total sag etc. combined with weight bias. Now this is where I get outside of my comfort zone and desire the same info Kenny is looking for. A simplified basic set up technique would be great but doesnt seem to be forthcoming.

So I do agree with the info here so far as to fine tuning the comp and rebound (and yes guys it will make a big diff even on the stk rear unless its blown or your overly too heavy for the shock) but am not 100% on the set up techniques.

I feel your pain BMW and am beggining to wonder if making adjustments to the crossovers isnt the ticket for the fronts. With the quad rates this part gets even more complicated.

Now if we look back to the suspension 101 thread by pred36 there is a lot of info and much of it seems to be direct to the original manufacturing of the shock and shock shaft travel and suspension geometry etc and how it al relates to designing and getting the correct shock etc. This thread was excelent but did go into things a little more than many may need (I did seriously enjoy it anyhow and found it one of the most imformative threads on suspension) and was easily confusing if you didnt take things step by step.

I have pm'ed pred36 a couple times and he claims that he will continue it one day but ,has been very busy etc, so we wait lol.

Now those are my basic thoughts and concerns but I want to get more into how this all makes sense to me and how I am dealing with the problems I have with suspension setup and hope it will some how help others to set up there suspension better and at least have a better understanding of what is happening and how to get the info they need and WTF to do with it.

Remember I am just a student and sharing what I know and deff would like nothing more than a true suspension pro to address this all since I not only need some help with this myself but am a much better learner than a teacher.

Yepper theres more :)


So now you think your new shinny shocks are set up correctly and since they are so much more plush than the stockers you were used to what is all this bs about.

Well as Kenny (thats pappy btw) put it earlier if you have not rode a properly set up machine you cant begin to understand what your missing. Just like enjoying a slice of chuck steak is great but just never the same after sampling a properly cooked ribeye or tbone you cant compare it once you been there.

For one I know where I get confused or have problems with the set up. It is most all based on the relationship between the ride height and weight bias v/s total sag.

Heres an interesting scenerio.

Get the sag right and the bias (and ride height) is too far forward, get the bias correct and the sag is off. Compensate with a softer rear main spring and start all over again :) its so much fun. Ok so its better with the new spring guess that helped but the bias/ride height is still off. Adjust the preload on the fronts and that is fixed but now the sag is off and the fronts are harsh.

Hmmm maybe add more preload and reduce the sag in the rear, or could be the front spring rate is not right. Time for more measurements lol.

this is actually what I have been working on lately and though it gets a little better each time I am sure theres someone out there who could just look at the damn thing and be like change blah blah and increase blah blah and bamm its done, but doesnt look like that is gonna happen LMFAO.

Sorry for the rambling but this is a sore subject for me and everytime you think you got it right its only another small step to getting there.

btw....id suggest noone contradict predator36 too bad im sure he is more then capable of handing us are arse with correct info..lol

Ok I am not proud wheres my arse and the rest of the info :D :devil:

[MOFO]

Originally posted by 440EX4me
Yepper theres more :)


Well as Kenny (thats pappy btw) put it earlier if you have not rode a properly set up machine you cant begin to understand what your missing. Just like enjoying a slice of chuck steak is great but just never the same after sampling a properly cooked ribeye or tbone you cant compare it once you been there.




This is so true. I have rode other quad's with different types of shocks. Lets just say, Kenny gave me a very small bite of his steak...actuall I would consider his quad more of a filet. BIG difference. This is a reason why I want to learn all this stuff.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by 440EX4me
Yepper theres more :)


I am sure theres someone out there who could just look at the damn thing and be like change blah blah and increase blah blah and bamm its done, but doesnt look like that is gonna happen LMFAO.



actually for me it may very well happen. me and 465stroker are supposed to hook up and im gonna hold him at gunpoint while he does his thing:devil: im not to proud either and will gladly watch and learn from him or anyone else that knows what the deal is:D


vwvr6......we all had our fingers crossed that you actually returned with my quad..lmao

[Knight440]

Great thread Pappy


My question and maybe I missed something is there two diffrent ways to set ride height.

My old Ex had triple rate's and was easy to set up the ride height.

Now my Dale has Triple rates with SSD and I have been :confused: for months to say the least:o

[Zingnut]

Hey BMW, here is my experience on the spacers:

I called the dealer for the shocks and received each individual springs rate in pounds.(you will need a micrometer to do this they require a measured spring coil diameter to give you the poundage of the spring) My springs ended being the lightest poundage on the top triple, slightly more on the center spring, and then more again on the larger lower spring. Anyway I was setup with a large 3/4" spacer in the top spring and two smaller 3/8" spacers in the center spring. I like yourself thought that the shocks were to stiff. I started by taking all the spacers out and rode it in the yard and on some simple wood trails in the back of my house. Wow that was way to soft and the springs were being compressed by the smallest of bumps. I then started by adding a 1/4" spacer in the top spring and that in-turn made the ride much more appealling (meaning they not as soft). After more and more testing and different spacers between each I ended up using this combo 1/2" spacer in the top spring and 1/4" spacer int he center spring. It took about 4 hours to come out with these results.

Additional info: My triples do not have a sag spring and are only preload adjustable.

But this it what worked for me to make me faster and must more confident.

[cdalejef]

There is some very nice posts here about suspension setup!!! I will try to sum up the BASIC ride height/preload setup the best that I can.....

The first thing you want to make sure is your quad is leveled on the ground, you are looking for a frame clearance of:
MX: 7 1/2 to 9 inches
XC: 8 1/2 ot 10 inches
Rec riding 9 to 10 inches

When the riders is sitting on the quad it must be leveled, if the front is higher than the rear he will be loosing traction at the front and the rear wheel will tend to slipp when cornering and if the rear higher than the front the quad will dive down when cornering.

To adjust the ride height of the quad you must preload the shocks to bring it higher and unscrew it down to lower it.

It is normal to bottom out on a MX track on a couple of big jumps, this means you are using the full travel of your suspension.

[Pappy]

ok...i broke out the tape:D

grab bar measures 28 5/8 with no rider
24 1/4 with rider


frame at the foot peg is 10 inches

frame at rear a arm mount is 10 inches

both measurements read 8 inches with rider



now what:blah:

[wyndzer]

Originally posted by Pappy
ok...i broke out the tape:D


now what:blah:

GO ride :duh:!!

[cdalejef]

Your in the ballpark Pappy ;)


Keep in mind the measurements are with XC size tires for XC and trails and MX size tires for MX

[Pappy]

Originally posted by wyndzer
GO ride :duh:!!

damn the smartest mofo here..lmfao:blah:

[Doibugu2]

Originally posted by Jeff@QuadShop
There is some very nice posts here about suspension setup!!! I will try to sum up the BASIC ride height/preload setup the best that I can.....

The first thing you want to make sure is your quad is leveled on the ground, you are looking for a frame clearance of:
MX: 7 1/2 to 9 inches
XC: 8 1/2 ot 10 inches
Rec riding 9 to 10 inches

When the riders is sitting on the quad it must be leveled, if the front is higher than the rear he will be loosing traction at the front and the rear wheel will tend to slipp when cornering and if the rear higher than the front the quad will dive down when cornering.

To adjust the ride height of the quad you must preload the shocks to bring it higher and unscrew it down to lower it.

It is normal to bottom out on a MX track on a couple of big jumps, this means you are using the full travel of your suspension.

So your saying even with different size tires on the front and the back, the frame should still be level?

And is it better to be lower or higher? Is it better to be closer to the 8-1/2 or 10.

How do you preload on the elka's? Is that the thing you can unscrew?

[cdalejef]

Originally posted by Doibugu2
So your saying even with different size tires on the front and the back, the frame should still be level?

And is it better to be lower or higher? Is it better to be closer to the 8-1/2 or 10.

How do you preload on the elka's? Is that the thing you can unscrew? That means running 20" tires on the front and 18" tires on the rear of MX and 22" tires on the front and 20" tires on the rear for XC and trails.
It gets to personal prefrence when you are between those measurements.

This is so true. I have rode other quad's with different types of shocks. Lets just say, Kenny gave me a very small bite of his steak...actuall I would consider his quad more of a filet. BIG difference. This is a reason why I want to learn all this stuff.

So you see what I mean then (cool I am not nutz lol) but now look at how Kenny, myself and others are still not happy knowing theres still much room for improvement.


actually for me it may very well happen. me and 465stroker are supposed to hook up and im gonna hold him at gunpoint while he does his thing im not to proud either and will gladly watch and learn from him or anyone else that knows what the deal is
Since it may take a while let me know if you need someone to help hold the gun while Rick is busy setting it up :D Seriously this is so damn confusing I do know where your coming from.

Originally posted by Jeff@QuadShop
There is some very nice posts here about suspension setup!!! I will try to sum up the BASIC ride height/preload setup the best that I can.....

The first thing you want to make sure is your quad is leveled on the ground, you are looking for a frame clearance of:
MX: 7 1/2 to 9 inches
XC: 8 1/2 ot 10 inches
Rec riding 9 to 10 inches

When the riders is sitting on the quad it must be leveled, if the front is higher than the rear he will be loosing traction at the front and the rear wheel will tend to slipp when cornering and if the rear higher than the front the quad will dive down when cornering.

To adjust the ride height of the quad you must preload the shocks to bring it higher and unscrew it down to lower it.

It is normal to bottom out on a MX track on a couple of big jumps, this means you are using the full travel of your suspension.

Jeff I got you there but, what needs to be addressed when after setting ride height you have too much sag (front and especially rear) and when you adjust the rear for proper sag the height is too high and then if you adjust the front to raise the height it get way too stiff. It just seems to allways be a trade off. The best ride height has been 8-1/2f and 9r (measurements on frame center behind arm mount and front of foot peg) the off balance amount throws off handling, but the best suspension action so far has been at this setting.

Well anyhow I am currently trying to get ahold of Marten from Elka to address this stuff etc and hopefully that will help. Will let you all know what happens with him and how it helps etc.

I am still not sure on the value of the sag settings v/s ride heights.

[MOFO]

Originally posted by Pappy



vwvr6......we all had our fingers crossed that you actually returned with my quad..lmao



nahhhh..... I wasnt trying to figure out how many gas stops it would take to get that mofo to Pittsburgh while I was riding it... :devil:

[monkeyboy]

wata boutt tha tecotty sprinngs:mad: :mad:

[MOFO]

Originally posted by monkeyboy
wata boutt tha tecotty sprinngs:mad: :mad:


not sure what your talking about... never heard of a tecotty using springs... if you got springs on yours, rip 'em off. Talk to your Cuz about weld'in some leaf springs on there... MUCH better IMO.

when i got my shocks from works performance they wanted to know my tire size.......why? does it make a difference how the suspension works?

[bmw500hp]

Originally posted by Zingnut
Hey BMW, here is my experience on the spacers:

I called the dealer for the shocks and received each individual springs rate in pounds.(you will need a micrometer to do this they require a measured spring coil diameter to give you the poundage of the spring) My springs ended being the lightest poundage on the top triple, slightly more on the center spring, and then more again on the larger lower spring. Anyway I was setup with a large 3/4" spacer in the top spring and two smaller 3/8" spacers in the center spring. I like yourself thought that the shocks were to stiff. I started by taking all the spacers out and rode it in the yard and on some simple wood trails in the back of my house. Wow that was way to soft and the springs were being compressed by the smallest of bumps. I then started by adding a 1/4" spacer in the top spring and that in-turn made the ride much more appealling (meaning they not as soft). After more and more testing and different spacers between each I ended up using this combo 1/2" spacer in the top spring and 1/4" spacer int he center spring. It took about 4 hours to come out with these results.
But this it what worked for me to make me faster and must more confident.

Again, thanks Zingnut as well as all who have addressed these issues. It seems if this information continually and freely exchanged. There will be so much less blame put on poor shock performance, setup or brand and much more time appreciating a good setup.

Now, lets bring the subject of spacers to a better understaning with more difinitive questions. Both subjective and objective.

#1 - What areas of the ride or shock performance would one address with the spacers in regard to the top springs (or) if we were to put it another way, what would be an example of shock performance which would require additional spacers to the top spring.

#2 - What specifics areas of shock performance are addressed by the middle spring, ( or ) what would be an example of shock performance which would be enhanced by adding spacers to the middle springs.

C,mon gentleman...

Originally posted by bmw500hp
Again, thanks Zingnut as well as all who have addressed these issues. It seems if this information continually and freely exchanged. There will be so much less blame put on poor shock performance, setup or brand and much more time appreciating a good setup.

Now, lets bring the subject of spacers to a better understaning with more difinitive questions. Both subjective and objective.

#1 - What areas of the ride or shock performance would one address with the spacers in regard to the top springs (or) if we were to put it another way, what would be an example of shock performance which would require additional spacers to the top spring.

#2 - What specifics areas of shock performance are addressed by the middle spring, ( or ) what would be an example of shock performance which would be enhanced by adding spacers to the middle springs.

C,mon gentleman...

Good questions.

Maybe wouldnt be bad to completely understand how the little buggers work either, and I dont mean that they seperate the springs or transfer the load etc.

I am starting to to think I may need to be looking into the spacers more but am not 100% sure on there reaction to changes and since they are currently all pointed up I was assumeing that this was for faster transfer to the next spring.

I am still crossing my fingers that we get some input from one of the suspension pro's

[bmw500hp]

Originally posted by 440EX4me
Good questions.

Maybe wouldnt be bad to completely understand how the little buggers work either, and I dont mean that they seperate the springs or transfer the load etc.

I am still crossing my fingers that we get some input from one of the suspension pro's

Well we will see. finally a chance to keep riders from blaming the shock setup by attempting to teach them how to evaluate and make positive changes to fine tune and get the most from the suspension.

I believe there are some not only knowledgable but sincere folks on this site.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by bmw500hp
There will be so much less blame put on poor shock performance, setup or brand and much more time appreciating a good setup.




ahhhh...very good point. i suspect that alot of the shock bashing stems from the fact that a person goes from stock (or wore out wrongly valved used) shocks to a set of properly valved and closely set up aftermarket shocks then blames the shock company for the old sets poor performance:o naaaaa....that could never happen;)



well, theres some questions sitting here waiting for an answer....so far ive picked up some new info to try out so keep it coming:cool:

[cdalejef]

Originally posted by freeride132
when i got my shocks from works performance they wanted to know my tire size.......why? does it make a difference how the suspension works? Because if you run 19 or 20 inch front tires, they have to put travel limiters in the front shocks to keep the frame from smacking the ground when the shocks bottom.

[dhines]

It seems to me that it would make sense for one of the top suspension guys to take some time and detail the process for dialing in a quad's shocks. While I guess it would be giving up "trade secrets" to some extent, it would also (as others have mentioned) help to eliminate many of the complaints that shock companies receive over improperly configured setups.

I have a feeling that one of the things that may be holding people back from fully describing the process is the raw amount of time that it takes to organize one's thoughts, write it all out, provide pictures, diagrams etc. and then answer any follow-up questions. Predator started the process but he obviously got overwhelmed by the sheer amount of information he was trying to convey.

I know it is probably of no use for me to offer this, but I would be more than willing to work with someone to fully and professionally chronicle the entire process. While I am no shock expert, I have a fairly strong background in documenting technical procedures and would be willing to spend the necessary time to get the thing done. Not really knowing any of the top suspension guys, I don't expect I'll get any takers, but there it is for what it's worth.

Out

Originally posted by Jeff@QuadShop
Because if you run 19 or 20 inch front tires, they have to put travel limiters in the front shocks to keep the frame from smacking the ground when the shocks bottom.


oh man thanks alot! no one could answer that question for me and my frame has just been smacking the ground nonstop since i went to radials, if you put travel limiters in do you lose travel...i know that sounds stupid lol, thanks a ton man

[cdalejef]

Yes, but its not alot.

[300exOH]

Great thread Pappy.
I recently put a set of Works steelers(non adjustable) in front on my 300ex and I'm still running the stock rear shock. When I sit on the quad should I get and equal amount of sag in front and rear? In other words if the rear sags 3" with rider then should the front also sag 3". My rear shock is the only preload adjustment I have. Should I increase the rear preload to match the front?
Any help would be appreciated.

Has anyone forwarded a link to this thread to any of the major shock manufacturers????????? If not then maybe we should. I will see if I have any email addys to send it to.




ahhhh...very good point. i suspect that alot of the shock bashing stems from the fact that a person goes from stock (or wore out wrongly valved used) shocks to a set of properly valved and closely set up aftermarket shocks then blames the shock company for the old sets poor performance naaaaa....that could never happen

I have said that same basic thing in every "whats best" thread that I had the energy to reply in. Funny thing is that for every member who agreed there were at least two who didnt and said bull.

Sure there are differences between brands (thats a good thing) but the brands in question are all top quality and have been proven to perform well. There is going to be more diff between them on the longevity between rebuilds etc than the actuall performance due to how these things are made. I have some experience with some of the core materials or parts used in shocks and an attempt by the manufacturer to save a few $$$ can make a big diff on internal wear. Everything from the housing and shaft materials and hardness to little things like seals will affect the time between rebuilds. You would be suprised at the amount of different seal materials and quality range etc.



well, theres some questions sitting here waiting for an answer....so far ive picked up some new info to try out so keep it coming

So I guess the thread is working then :)

Originally posted by dhines
It seems to me that it would make sense for one of the top suspension guys to take some time and detail the process for dialing in a quad's shocks. While I guess it would be giving up "trade secrets" to some extent, it would also (as others have mentioned) help to eliminate many of the complaints that shock companies receive over improperly configured setups.

I have a feeling that one of the things that may be holding people back from fully describing the process is the raw amount of time that it takes to organize one's thoughts, write it all out, provide pictures, diagrams etc. and then answer any follow-up questions. Predator started the process but he obviously got overwhelmed by the sheer amount of information he was trying to convey.

I know it is probably of no use for me to offer this, but I would be more than willing to work with someone to fully and professionally chronicle the entire process. While I am no shock expert, I have a fairly strong background in documenting technical procedures and would be willing to spend the necessary time to get the thing done. Not really knowing any of the top suspension guys, I don't expect I'll get any takers, but there it is for what it's worth.

Out

I agree with your thoughts but think there is a need for less than the full process. I think the complete set up info (like pred36 was posting) is great but not what 90% of the riders here need. Look at most of the suspension questions. I think some of the people in this thread can help with most of them. There is just a need for some info or guidence beyond the set your ride height to 8.5" to 10.5" and within 10% of 33% race sag, but for many the full monte is overkill and only confuses and scares them away.

Personally I want the knowledge and just as I had to get a major education on the internal tricks of modding the 400ex engine (thanx to this site and the engine builders who would offer help) I am expecting the same on suspension before its all over :)

I think you may get more takers on your offer than you think, hey even I want to give you a shot at it.

Originally posted by 300exOH
Great thread Pappy.
I recently put a set of Works steelers(non adjustable) in front on my 300ex and I'm still running the stock rear shock. When I sit on the quad should I get and equal amount of sag in front and rear? In other words if the rear sags 3" with rider then should the front also sag 3". My rear shock is the only preload adjustment I have. Should I increase the rear preload to match the front?
Any help would be appreciated.

Your answer is in this thread allready.

Your works are preload adjustable by raising or lowering the top bracket or spring holder. I believe works has a web page on how to do this.

From what I understand you want 33% of your total travel in race sag (with rider) and then you want the ride height (as posted by Jeff @ TQS) and have it even from front to rear.

It sounds a lot simplier than it is and if your spring# isnt spot on or some valving isnt right then even if you get the settings correct the quad may not perform to potential.

BTW this is the part where I am like :huh because knowing where the prob is front or rear, spring or valving and how to react to it isnt anything but confusing.

[300exOH]

thanks for the advise. I've thought from the beginning that the ride height was too high in the front. I ordered the shocks directly from Works valved for 250r a arms. I didn't measure the stock ride height before swapping a arms so I have no exact measurement to work from. I'll have to check the Works site for the preload thing and find out what stock ridee height was. Thanks again.

[cdalejef]

Originally posted by 300exOH
Great thread Pappy.
I recently put a set of Works steelers(non adjustable) in front on my 300ex and I'm still running the stock rear shock. When I sit on the quad should I get and equal amount of sag in front and rear? In other words if the rear sags 3" with rider then should the front also sag 3". My rear shock is the only preload adjustment I have. Should I increase the rear preload to match the front?
Any help would be appreciated. Sorry, I should have pointed out that those measurements are for SSD shocks only!!!

[Knight440]

Originally posted by Jeff@QuadShop
Sorry, I should have pointed out that those measurements are for SSD shocks only!!!
Thanks Jeff :cool:

Doug Gust has some useful info on his webpage about shocks..:cool:

[Pappy]

im just gonna switch shocks with yokely when he aint looking:o

pappy..thanks for making this thread...i thought my new TCS's were set up pretty good(guy400's old shocks) but then i read this thread..adjusted the threaded part of the shocks..all 3...turned the rear shocks compression out a little bit...wrote everything down...went for a ride..and all i could say was wow...they went though whoops 10x better than before.i didnt get bucked around..and my ladnings werent as rough

[Pappy]

well i spent an hour with a buddy today just looking and talking shocks. its really pretty interesting to learn about them...and we had several types on hand to study....take apart and what not. its a bit different reading about something and then applying that knowledge when it comes to shocks. i think to fully understand what the changes do and how they affect the handling the rider needs to be pretty decent....kinda like the days of thunder thing. if the rider dont know what the mechanic does then it aint gonna work.


im sure 440ex4me will get an answer or someone else ...but id like to know if the shock companies offer thier various shims and collars to the general public:confused: after reading and talking ive seen the light and want to apply whats been learned to my shocks:D

Originally posted by Pappy
but id like to know if the shock companies offer thier various shims and collars to the general public:confused:

Some shocks come with extra hardware. Mine came with 6 extra crossovers and they let you know all the parts on the shocks with the information about them incase you needed to change anything. They will also send you other springs and parts you need if you call them up.

[bmw500hp]

Originally posted by QuadMX18
Some shocks come with extra hardware. Mine came with 6 extra crossovers and they let you know all the parts on the shocks with the information about them incase you needed to change anything. They will also send you other springs and parts you need if you call them up.

Quadmx18
It is the application of the supplied hardware that I am interested in. If you don't mind me asking, I would really appreciate your input on these 4 questions...

-Did you feel the need to further "personalize" your shocks once recieved? Nothing wrong with that!

-If you did, what adjustments did you make to impove the suspensions performance. ie: weight bias or ride height, spacer placements etc.

-How well did you understand the additional hardware and pep's manual? Did you find it clear and helpful?

-If shock manufacurer / and pro rider were standing right beside you and your ex. What "one question" would you ask them about your suspension to get it the best it can be?

again, not to bash any brand of shocks...just keeping the ball moving down court towards better suspension performance. Help me if ya can quadmx18!!!!

thnx :)

[Pappy]

well idecided to go thru my back shock today. it didnt feel as smooth as we thought it should have. so i took out the shim and looked at it. one side is longer then the other by about 1/4 inch. the longer side was facing up making the top spring transfer too early to the main sping causing it to be a bit stiff. all i can say is.....SWEET. it rides like a new shock:D

my before rear grabbar measurements were
grab bar measures 28 5/8 with no rider
24 1/4 with rider


now they measure 28 without rider and 25 with rider. :)

[300exOH]

Should the quad sag equally in both front and rear with the rider? I'm trying to adjust my stock rear to match my fronts.

Originally posted by bmw500hp
Quadmx18
It is the application of the supplied hardware that I am interested in. If you don't mind me asking, I would really appreciate your input on these 4 questions...

-Did you feel the need to further "personalize" your shocks once recieved? Nothing wrong with that!


Yes


Originally posted by bmw500hp
-If you did, what adjustments did you make to impove the suspensions performance. ie: weight bias or ride height, spacer placements etc.


For the front suspension i turned the compression up 2 clicks and the rear i slowed the rebound down a little less then half a turn. For the front shocks i also tried different ride heights. i raised the ride height one notch and lowered it one and two notches. The shocks use a c clip to adjust ride height so it takes 1 minute literally. I felt one and two lower was to low and u hit some rocks and debris i wouldnt normally hit and one up was ok, but where it came i thought was the best bc it kept the center of gravity low for amazing handling and i didnt run into many things or any at all. I didnt feel the need to make major adjustments by changing out crossovers. I thought some clicks on the compression was sufficient.


Originally posted by bmw500hp

-How well did you understand the additional hardware and pep's manual? Did you find it clear and helpful?


The shocks came with 3 sheets. The first one was a spec sheet with all the information ranging from bike and bike set up ( a - arms, foot peg location, swingarm length, rider weight, type of riding, tire sizes, any other weight altering products like skids, beadlocks, mud etc.) to spring weights, lengths, fork pressure, fluid type, fluid level, amount of adjustments and were it is set stock, axle travel, length of shocks, and a bunch of other stuff some of it which exceeds my knowledge but if i ever really needed to know it, i am sure they would be happy to explain it to me. This sheet is very clear and i have made reference to it many times. I am very glad i have received it and it was a help to me.

The second sheet is a diagram of the shocks with out the springs with all of the parts of the shock labeled like the ride height adjuster and what to do with it to adjust the height, talks abt the zps gap, floater, crossover gap, crossover rings, go between, lower spring seat and where all of the springs go. This sheet also helped me further understand how the shock works and what each parts intention is to do.

The last sheet was just a how to mount the rezzies with a basic diagram. This was with all the hardware that came like the crosssovers, the clamps and the rubber pieces for the rezzies on the frame.

Everything was very clear and the info ranged from any idiot should know that, to more advanced shock knowledge, but all buyers can put the info to great use.


Originally posted by bmw500hp
-If shock manufacurer / and pro rider were standing right beside you and your ex. What "one question" would you ask them about your suspension to get it the best it can be?


If i could ask anything i honestly dont know what it would be because any question i have had, i did call up and talk to the man himself who built my shocks. But the stuff i did ask him was for measurements on the quad and where everything should be like frame height, how much sag, etc..


Originally posted by bmw500hp
...just keeping the ball moving down court towards better suspension performance. Help me if ya can quadmx18!!!!

thnx :)

I am by no means a pro but i hope the research i have done could help some others. :cool:

[bmw500hp]

QuadMx18

Thank you VERY much for taking the time to reply in a most full and comprehensive manner. You organize and lay out your thaughts very well.

We seek the most from our suspension. Yet there exists many ambiguous areas between that glorious day when we open the box and the perfect setup! Even though you didn't address the spacer plates, Your opinions and thaughts on practical application were great.

Low is Good! lol

mike :D

[Pappy]

ok noone picked up on my last set of measurements:(

by making the top spring on the rear shock handle more of the sag by switching the crossover why did the measurement decrease without the rider...and increase with the rider? i made no other changes. is this what yer talkin about 440:devil:

Originally posted by bmw500hp
QuadMx18

Thank you VERY much for taking the time to reply in a most full and comprehensive manner. You organize and lay out your thaughts very well.

We seek the most from our suspension. Yet there exists many ambiguous areas between that glorious day when we open the box and the perfect setup! Even though you didn't address the spacer plates, Your opinions and thaughts on practical application were great.

Low is Good! lol

mike :D


I have done a search and read a bunch of your posts. Sorry i did not realize you were looking for an answer on the crossovers. If you have a specific question on them feel free to PM me and i will try to help you out the best i can.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Pappy

by making the top spring on the rear shock handle more of the sag by switching the crossover why did the measurement decrease without the rider...and increase with the rider? :

i geuss since this isnt covered by the instructions its above yall's heads:confused: surely with the knowledge that here someone knows the answer:ermm:

Originally posted by Pappy
i geuss since this isnt covered by the instructions its above yall's heads:confused: surely with the knowledge that here someone knows the answer:ermm:

Why do you always feel the need to make wise *** comments? Maybe if you were a little bit clearer in your explanation you would get more replys.



Originally posted by Pappy
so i took out the shim and looked at it. one side is longer then the other by about 1/4 inch. the longer side was facing up making the top spring transfer too early to the main sping causing it to be a bit stiff.

I am confused on what you are saying. You took out the crossover and one side was bigger then the other by a 1/4 inch :confused: Also when you took out the crossovers what did u do after? Did you put more or less in? And the only way i can see you getting the differences in those measurments is if the preload was set up differently then how it was when the first measurement was taken. The only way i can see you getting the measurement decrease without the rider and increase with the rider is that you added a crossover and lowered the preload. That is if you mean decrease without the rider as in it sagged more with no rider and compressed less with the rider.

[Tommy 17]

i have a very good ? about people who will set up ur shocks for u...


is there anyone in the atv world who does this...

i know when i got my suspension set up on my dirt bike in 1999 by pro actions suspension they did this...

1. when u told them u wanted ur suspension set up they came out durin ur moto or practice and watch u ride a lap or 2 on ur bike to see what the suspension was doin on it...

2. after your moto or practice u took the bike to them... they put u on a weight scale...

3. then the guy would make u sit on the bike and he would check how much the suspension crushes when u sit on it... the rider sag...

4. then he would take ur shocks off go into the trailer change springs, valving, seals etc...

5. when he came back out he would re install all the parts and watch u again ur next moto to make sure the suspension looked like it was performin well...

i guess my question is... is there anyone out there in the ATV world NOT!! dirtbikes who we can pay to set up our suspension for us... i know my pro actions prepped cr80 suspension was 100 times better then stk...

i know i paided 728$ for my elkas... i have a stk rear... never had the time nor money to send it out... but is there someone out there who we can pay the 200$+ (i think thats what i was for my bike to be set up) to have them do this for us on a quad..

i dunno about u guyz... but i'd def pay for someone to set my bike up like pro action did for me on my 80... if u pay the money for the shocks it don't matter if they aren't set up for u... i know i'd be willin to pay it bc it'll give u the end over the others...

i am pretty clueless when it comes to shocks... but i know if u go to a MX race and u watch u can tell whos shocks are set up right and who isn't... its easy to see bc they aren't gettin thrown all over the place... and they aren't wrecked somewhere... u can tell the bikes that are set up right...

[Pappy]

it would be nice to have trackside support thats for sure...but highly unlikely that the average rider would ever take advantage of the service.

i bet alot of people have read whats posted so far and actually gone out and worked on thier shocks......step #1 complete.




now....we have discussed a ton of info on shocks.....so now lets move onto valving.



what is it?

what does it do?

how to tell if its wrong?

what makes one shock company better then the next ( keep the personal opinions to the point)

what are some of the biggest differences between brand a and brand x?

also maybe someone would be so kind to explain how a arm width will affect valving.



again...thx for not bashing the different shock companies

;)

[modracer5]

i have been tring to stay away from this post but i figured it was time to add my .02 worth of info. i race mx and just switched from a +2 frontend to a longtravel front...spent a ton of money and the first time i hit the track i was less than impressed. this bike beat the hell out of me and nomatter what adjustments i made it never got anybetter.
my whole frontend was ordered new and set-up for me with ALL THE CORRECT INFO GIVEN to the shock company including frontend type, and my real riding ability...it does matter.
i am lucky because i have Norris Quinn close to me who rebuilds shocks at all the nationals for levels of riders and is a rider himself. i took my bike to him to help me get it set up properly. we checked everything from castor, camber, toe, ride height and preload when we found a problem with the toe...with the front fully extended i had 1-1/2" toe IN, at ride heigth i had 3/8" toe IN and at close to fully compressed it toe OUT 1-7/8". my front end thats not supposed to have bumpsteer had a ton.... causing the bike to rut hunt or wander down straights and be really stiff and dart on landings. we traced the problem down to the lower tab on the steering stem where the tie rods connect being welded on at the wrong heigth. after we fixed the problem with that he took the rebound and compression adjusters and put them back to where they came stock and sent me out on his mx track behind his shop right by my side to watch the bike because i could not give him useful rider input. he made two adjustmest to my front and rear shocks. stiffened the compression 1 click and slowed the rebound a few clicks.

i guess what i'm tring to say is that not always are your "shock problems" in your shocks. if your shocks were ordered for you and all the correct info given your shocks should be pretty close minus a few adjustments from track to track.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by modracer5

i guess what i'm tring to say is that not always are your "shock problems" in your shocks. if your shocks were ordered for you and all the correct info given your shocks should be pretty close minus a few adjustments from track to track.

i asked this in an earlier post....how did you get the right measurements when ordering the shocks. i ask because alot of riders are going from stock shocks to aftermarket and im sure this would be of benefit to them:)

also....why is it important to be truthful when ordering shocks about riding ability and the other suspension components? how does the that affect what they do?

and i agree....not all is what it seems when it comes to suspension problems.

(please dont think im a retard....im just asking the questions. both sides of the issue thing;) )

[Chanman420q]

+1 +2 +3 extended a arms effect vavling because it puts more leverage onto the shock making it push up on it easier when landing a jump or just riding. so this softens the shock up. So they valve it ( i think its like 10 pounds per inch? ) more than ur actual weight to compinsise with the extra leverage, this makes the spring stiffer yet feel the same as if you were riding on stk length a arms

[modracer5]

now....we have discussed a ton of info on shocks.....so now lets move onto valving.
what is it?
Valving is stacks of shims in the shock that have diffrent size holes in them and will allow the shock oil to pass through

what does it do?
the shims purpose is to control the speed at witch the schock shaft moves up and down

how to tell if its wrong?
so long as the bike is set up properly...and springs and cross overs are correct... use your compression and rebound adjustors to dial in the shock.
if you bottom out the shock on the stiffest compression setting or it is way too hard on the softest setting maybe time for a change. if the front or rear continues to pack up Not rebounding fast enough on the quickest rebound setting and is not kicking the bike up on jumps may be time for a change. Basicly if you can't get the shock to respond and end up at one extreme setting and out of EXTERNAL adjustments may be time for a valving change.

what makes one shock company better then the next ( keep the personal opinions to the point)
what makes on beter than the next to me is service...SERVICE AFTER THE SALE. also the fact that i can get mine rebuilt localy. and PERSONAL prefrance
what are some of the biggest differences between brand a and brand x?
no wait....3 weeks...6 weeks and 6 months....lol JK

also maybe someone would be so kind to explain how a arm width will affect valving.
a arm width affects the valving by increasing the leverage ratio inputed into the shock....because the arm is wider and the piviot point remains the same more leverage or force is put to the shock so you have to change the valving or the hole sizes in the valves to control how fast the shaft moves with the added leverage

[Pappy]

awesome info:D

a bit O/T but does the shocks we use compare in any way to say a front shock on a bike. i ask simply because of the very fine adjustments regularly done on them and those small adjustments make such a huge difference in performance. ive seen a 1 cc change in fluid hieght make a vast improvement.

or are they so far ahead of us they dont compare:p

[Pappy]

ya know i was so absorbed with reading i missed your post quadmx18. first off my smart *** comments arent anything i normally dont post. second i believe the responses will be just fine wether you reply or not. as i told yer big bro ...get over it..or get out of it. simple enough for ya?


now onto the second part....

yes the shim or collar has a short side and a long side...with a difference of approx. 1/4 inch maybe a touch less. the long side was faced up . the shock seemed stiff at slow speeds and offered almost no use of the top spring as rider weight was placed on the quad the shock transfered almost immediatley to the main spring. i made no ther changes except to switch the collars/shim so that the long side faced down. i did the same measurements and posted the results. my question stands....why did the measurement change the way it did. i made absolutley no other changes....and i didnt lose 20 pounds in a day:p

[modracer5]

How to get the right length shocks....order from a well know shock company and answer all the question they ask you truthfully. 1 question they ask is what arms you run....why ...to make the shock the proper length. most of the big companys have a majority of the common frontends on hand for testing to they know what length shock...what type of valving and springs are needed with that bike and frontend. if you plan to get a widwer frontend then tell what frontend and get them valved for it up front...but they will be stiff till you get the new frontend.

Why is it important to be truthful??? if you tell someone that you are an A class mx racer and you are really a C class racer then the shocks will be way too soft for you...most people think i don't jump that far so i don't need them to be as stiff as doug gusts shocks...truth be know because he can ride and knows how to...he lands on the downsides of jumps not 5' short or 5' past for a nice flat landing his shocks would be way too soft...even for me. the shock companys spring and valve heavier for an inexpirenced rider because they are not up to the level that other rides are.

( I ) don't think that our front shocks compare to motocycle shocks. i do make fine adjustments from track to track but usually only when i am changing track surfaces. i may make a compression change when i head to track with a little bit longer jump depending on the landing......Sounds funny to say but you want yoour shocks to bottom out....not all the time but at least once at some point on the track it should bottom or you are not using all your travel in the form of supension.

TIP....take a small tie wrap and put it on the shaft of your shock...cut off the excess and push it up to the shock body. when you come in look at it and see how close to bottoming out you are...this will be a good indication for how much shock travel your are gettiong.

[AtvMxRider]

This is without a doubt this is the most informative thread I have seen on Exriders:) . Keep it up.

[Pappy]

ok...since the questions i asked have been handled...ill have to come up with more:mad: :blah:

and since for the most part everyone is keeping brand loyalty out of it maybe we can keep it coming:D


ok...so a fella wants new shocks.....what should he consider as the most important things to look at when choosing the proper shock for him to purchase?


and whats some of the feedback on getting the stock 400ex rear shock rebuilt over buying an aftermarket?


also....whats the best way to read what your shocks are telling you? the zip tie tip lead me to that question:devil: im sure there are other tricks of the trade so lets hear them:)

[modracer5]

PAPPY the reason why the measurements changed were because you changed the spring rate in the rear of the quad......you did this by changing the crossover piece or flipping it over. before it crossed over to the main sping under the weight of the quad....when you got on the bike it compressed to your weight. depending on the rate of your spring.. say it is a 100lb spring..it takes 100 lbs to compressit 1 inch. when you flipped it over you gave the top spring a chance to hold more of it owns weight. and when you get on the bike you are now having to compress the top spring a little further befor you cross over..... i hope this makes sense.

[modracer5]

ok...so a fella wants new shocks.....what should he consider as the most important things to look at when choosing the proper shock for him to purchase?
What type of riding he intends to do.. MX or XC? you can't have your cake and eat it too here guys. they will not be valved the same for both types of riding...stiff enough for mx is way to stiff for the woods... what his income level will allow him to buy ...i started with a chevette of shocks and now think i am with ferrai. but the cost goes along with it. if you want better shocks but can't afford what you want ....SAVE your money...do it right the first time...i still have several sets i shocks i can't sell cause i have too much money in the for what i want or need to get from them..so i will let them sit.

and whats some of the feedback on getting the stock 400ex rear shock rebuilt over buying an aftermarket?
i have close to 3000.00 in a front end and still run a stock rear...(revalved, re sprung and zpsed) we have an awesome shock on the rear of our bikes..it just needs to be valved for us. i think i was told that honda had it valved and sprung for like a 160-180lb rider but just recreational riding. you have preload rebound and compression adjustments....you can't get that unless you spend close to 800.00...so why change???

also....whats the best way to read what your shocks are telling you?
this is hard...most riders are out of their comfort zone when they are racing or riding hard so they can't keep track of what the shocks are doing....if you can't relate to what your bike is doing you need someone to watch for you. i set mine up in the nastiest set of whoops or the roughest washed out section of trails i can find. you can use the zip tie for the jumps....
start running through the section and how far into the whoops do you get before it gets rough? you need the shocks to rebound as fast as you can get them to without sending you skyward or the front kicking up...you want to use all the travel you can so you may need to soften the compression to take some of the jars out. be careful not to make the rebouind so fast that when you hit the face of a jump it causes the quad to fly with the nose real high.
the rear also affects the front..so adjust it too..after the first few whoops the rear of the quad starts bouncing all around side to side you probally need more rebound (FASTER) if the seat starts smacking you in the tail...too fast. you really need to know if you are using all the travel and make sure that the shocks aren't packing up (rebounding so slow that it does not rebound to full extension before the next hit and eventally runs out of travel).

it is best to only make one adjustment at a time so you can learn what does what and how much it does it! do not be scared to experiment but make sure you take notes as to what change affeced what and what you changed....i keep track notes cause i race at 17 tracks so i know when i go back i can aadjust them to this setting and i will be really close.
everything you do is a compromise...keep that in mind if you adjust for this keep in mind you still have to go through that. you just have to find a happy middle.

[400EXrider#91]

when it comes to shocks, i know like the brands and and like zps and stuff but i would love to know how to set them up as best i can. i know my pro-series works suck but i am in the process of trying to order elka's. anyways when i got my shocks i had stock arms, not knowing that i was gonna be able to aford arms and a axle i set them up for stock arms. not that i have my burgards on and riding them they are way soft. so i guess my question is what should i do? turn the nut on the top of the shock? should i srew with the rebound? i dunno but shocks alot but i would like some help

Originally posted by Pappy
and whats some of the feedback on getting the stock 400ex rear shock rebuilt over buying an aftermarket?



Originally posted by modracer5
and whats some of the feedback on getting the stock 400ex rear shock rebuilt over buying an aftermarket?
i have close to 3000.00 in a front end and still run a stock rear...(revalved, re sprung and zpsed) we have an awesome shock on the rear of our bikes..it just needs to be valved for us. i think i was told that honda had it valved and sprung for like a 160-180lb rider but just recreational riding. you have preload rebound and compression adjustments....you can't get that unless you spend close to 800.00...so why change???


I totally agree. The stock rear shock on a 400ex revalved, resprung, hard anodized etc. performs exactly the same as a full rear shock. No need to spend an extra 400+ dollars

Originally posted by 400EXrider#91
when it comes to shocks, i know like the brands and and like zps and stuff but i would love to know how to set them up as best i can. i know my pro-series works suck but i am in the process of trying to order elka's. anyways when i got my shocks i had stock arms, not knowing that i was gonna be able to aford arms and a axle i set them up for stock arms. not that i have my burgards on and riding them they are way soft. so i guess my question is what should i do? turn the nut on the top of the shock? should i srew with the rebound? i dunno but shocks alot but i would like some help

Your going to have to turn the compression up quite a bit. also turn the preload nut down so u have a little more preload. I would leave the rebound alone unless you are having problems with it.

well..before i adjusted my shocks..the frame hieght was about 10 1.2 inches at its lowest point...after i adjusted my shocks and i feel they are jsut about perfect(thanks to this thread) the frame height is exactly 8 inches..andim set up for MX..so thanks to everyone that posted in this thread....it made such a big increase in my ride

[Rip_Tear]

So heres my question, who rebuilds the rear shock? And is there any difference in where its rebuilt?

(hope that doesn't get too into which is better)

Thanks!

Originally posted by Rip_Tear
So heres my question, who rebuilds the rear shock? And is there any difference in where its rebuilt?

(hope that doesn't get too into which is better)

Thanks!

This is when it comes in to whos better :eek: It makes a huge difference who is doing it. To be safe make sure they revalve respring and do all of the other basic things AND they hard anodize it. The hard anodizing usually bumps the price up quite a bit ($400+ for the whole rebuild) but i feel it is definately worth it. The hard anodizing is usually on all aluminum internal and external parts. The hard anodizing makes a durable finish on the outside and also prevents contamination of the shock oil.

[modracer5]

Originally posted by 400EXrider#91
when it comes to shocks, i know like the brands and and like zps and stuff but i would love to know how to set them up as best i can. i know my pro-series works suck but i am in the process of trying to order elka's. anyways when i got my shocks i had stock arms, not knowing that i was gonna be able to aford arms and a axle i set them up for stock arms. not that i have my burgards on and riding them they are way soft. so i guess my question is what should i do? turn the nut on the top of the shock? should i srew with the rebound? i dunno but shocks alot but i would like some help

you have a decent set of shocks...you have 5/8 shafts rebound, compression and preload adjustments so i would tell you to keep them... just send them to be revalved and zps ed. i spent 325.00 to have my old pro series valved, re sprung and zps ed along with the seals and and oil changed. the only other option would be to hard anodize the shocks. that adds more money to the price but may be worth it cause the aluminum bodies and rezzies can absorb contaminates and cause the shock oil to fade faster. i did not do mine but got a year before rebuilds and then sold them. they are still going strong.

[bongwater200]

Ya know......

The problem with shock setup is that its virtually impossible to setup your own shocks 100% by yourself. Its also virtually impossible to setup your shocks based on what you read or hear from someone else regardless of how good they are with shocks.

You could take the best shock guys in the business, and I bet they couldn't set up their own suspension! What they CAN do, is set it up for YOU based on what they SEE. When you're on your quad, you can easily tell whether you're bottoming or not, but you really don't know what is happening between your tires and the ground. That is where you need someone who is really good with suspension to watch you ride AT FULL SPEED to see how you ride and how your suspension is working.

I could piss around with my own suspension for months and get it to where I THINK its absolutely perfect. Then I could have someone like Baldwin, DiRisi, or another good shock guy watch me ride and in 5 minutes they'd probably have me thinking I just got a $1000 shock upgrade!

The point is, that no matter how good you are with shocks or how long you spend messing with them, you really need someone who knows what they're doing to watch from trackside. If you're concentrating on going fast, you can't concentrate on shock performance, and visa versa. If you can get a shock EXPERT to help you out, you'll be much farther ahead. Reading all the "how to" articles might get you in the ballpark, but you need outside help to really get things tuned properly.

[Pappy]

:o and they said a good shock thread was impossible:D

ok i measured my free sag and rider sag at the grab bar

free sag is 28 inches
rider sag is 25 inches....does that sound about right?

[Pappy]

Originally posted by modracer5
PAPPY the reason why the measurements changed were because you changed the spring rate in the rear of the quad......you did this by changing the crossover piece or flipping it over. before it crossed over to the main sping under the weight of the quad....when you got on the bike it compressed to your weight. depending on the rate of your spring.. say it is a 100lb spring..it takes 100 lbs to compressit 1 inch. when you flipped it over you gave the top spring a chance to hold more of it owns weight. and when you get on the bike you are now having to compress the top spring a little further befor you cross over..... i hope this makes sense.

yup...thats the answer i came up with. at first i thought the top spring was binding due to the long part topping out and making the top spring act funny. im sure it was to an extent because i was noticing spring noise.

and i figured that was relevant to 440ex4me's constant search for the proper set up....one small change changes so many others. which would lead to writing it all down. which leads to more changes......ok is yer head spinning yet:)

Originally posted by Pappy
ok noone picked up on my last set of measurements:(

by making the top spring on the rear shock handle more of the sag by switching the crossover why did the measurement decrease without the rider...and increase with the rider? i made no other changes. is this what yer talkin about 440:devil:

Thats just one of the many suspension gremlins I have found :D

I have had this thing in so many diff setting combo's that I have wondered more than once if it was better before I started messin with it, but I know the little set backs are frustrating but it still is a little better every time.

Originally posted by Pappy
ya know i was so absorbed with reading i missed your post quadmx18. first off my smart *** comments arent anything i normally dont post. second i believe the responses will be just fine wether you reply or not. as i told yer big bro ...get over it..or get out of it. simple enough for ya?


now onto the second part....

yes the shim or collar has a short side and a long side...with a difference of approx. 1/4 inch maybe a touch less. the long side was faced up . the shock seemed stiff at slow speeds and offered almost no use of the top spring as rider weight was placed on the quad the shock transfered almost immediatley to the main spring. i made no ther changes except to switch the collars/shim so that the long side faced down. i did the same measurements and posted the results. my question stands....why did the measurement change the way it did. i made absolutley no other changes....and i didnt lose 20 pounds in a day:p


The change allowed the transfer from the sag spring to the main spring to happen later in the transfer there by letting the sag spring sag more.

Now I wonder if the plastic spacers/transfers that Elka has been using can wear and then affect the amount of transfer? HMMMMMM.

Head spinning LMAO if yours aint your missing something :)

Two very good points everyone should not ignore are changing one thing at a time and keeping a log of what you do and how it changes the ride height, sag and actual performance.

Its a real help being able to look back at what you have changed and a good laugh to see how many times you can go full circle :D

I have a few pages of changes, results, measurements and comments that I would be lost without. Nothing helps more than to look back and see that with the old spring or valving and the preload set to X and the ride height at Y and see what it did or how the quad reacted when making adjustments with the new hardware etc.

Well I am working on some problems with the new bushings on the a-arms and wont be able to comment on how back pedleing to the original way I set it up with race sag being the major setting and ride height being a compromise etc. but hopefully it will be better and I will let you all know the details.

One more thing is that I suggest we all be carefull on what we believe since it seems everyone here isnt as humble as some others and it can be confusing who's info is 100% solid. Not that mine is but I will at least admit so.

[Pappy]

well i knew about shocks before...but this thread has allowed me to learn a ton:) thx guys. and please forgive me for playing devils advocate at times.......but i felt it was necessary to keep the thread going and keep away the bashing.



secondly...440ex4me.....although you type more then my suckretary i can now go back and read some of your posts and fully understand them:eek: :D (i know....its has to be long to explain it all;) )

i still want to hear more opinions and thoughts. im pretty sure we covered the basics and beyond but i have a feeling theres still more out there. id like to know more:macho


like how does the hard anodizing prevent fluid contamination? (i suspect i know but would like that clarified)

i often hear of different valves...i.e. gold valve etc. what makes the different valves better then others?

and back to the valving. maybe someone can describe what would work in a pinch for someone buying used shocks set up for one combo. i see it alot on the site...like someone wants shocks but they are set up for a different width and weight. (i presume from what weve learned this is probly not in the buyers best intrest without a revalve)



and btw...modracer....

after you posted about the a arms tab height we did a bit of checking on my quad. the steering has been a nightmare even with a few changes to toe and camber settings. i have to pull the stem and double check but we think the distance between the tie rod mounting holes are too far apart on my lsr stem. it was easy to spot and an easy fix .....but would have me going nuts if zracer hadnt found it:mad: it never ceases to amaze me the subtle issues that cause a gigantic problem.


THANKS AGAIN TO EVERYONE WHO'S POSTED :)

[bongwater200]

Pappy..... just a couple answers to your questions.

First off, on the ride height issue. Your measurements changed the way they did because when you switched the crossover around, you allowed the shock to sag farther into the shock's stroke before it got into the main spring. Your shock linkage does not create a linear rate, it is a rising rate. By sagging farther into the travel, you are now getting a lower motion ratio from the linkage which causes the spring to be "stiffer"

Does that help you understand at all?

Second, on the hard anodizing. All metals are somewhat porous. (just like powder coat) By hard anodizing the shock body, engine cases, or other similar products, you plug those pores so that the contaminants in the oil can't penetrate into the aluminum. Without anodizing, if you change the oil, the new oil will pull those contaminants back out of the oil and VOILA! Instant contamination of fresh oil. The hard anodizing also keeps the piston from eventually wearing out the shock body. It is the best thing you can do for ANY aluminum bodied shock.

[Pappy]

yeah i just wanted it further explained by someone other then myself. im sure with the new info posted here others will be busily making changes and figured we could answer some of thier questions in a format that they could understand and institue in thier shock set ups...thx


yeah the hard anodizing is deff. a big improvement. does anyone know if any other shock manufactures anodize thier shock bodies..inside or out? and if the hard anodizing is so good....why dont others use it?

and a few more...lol

modracer mentioned keeping a log for different track conditions. maybe he or someone else could explain a good system for doing this. i can imagine alot of the mx guys will be interested.


back to shock oil.

are there different types widely used like with the bikes?

is the level in a quad shock as critical as say a bike?

what intervals are recomended between a rebuild and fluid change?

whats the average cost for a rebuild or fluid change and approx. time for these services?

also.....maybe someone will post some info on shock fade.

[bongwater200]

Originally posted by Pappy

back to shock oil.

are there different types widely used like with the bikes?

is the level in a quad shock as critical as say a bike?

what intervals are recomended between a rebuild and fluid change?

whats the average cost for a rebuild or fluid change and approx. time for these services?

also.....maybe someone will post some info on shock fade.


Fork oil height in a bike is important because there is no gas pressure on top of the oil like there is in a shock. The oil height measurement changes the volume of the air at the top of the fork tube, as well as the amount of pressure required to compress that air. This changes the way the forks handle small bumps more than large hits. In a quad shock or a rear bike shock, oil capacity is important, but not AS important as in a fork. (that's where nitrogen pressure kicks in)

Different oils.......... There are just as many different choices for quad shocks as there are for bikes, in fact, we use all the same stuff for the most part. Oils differ in viscosity, lubricity, and even the rate of heat transfer. You would need a VERY detailed spec sheet on each oil in order to know which one was better. Most shock builders just use what they have figured out to perform the best over the years.

Recharge/rebuild intervals...... I know people who have their shocks recharged every 3-4 races, and I know people who run them all year before they do anything to them. If you race a lot, I suppose its best to have them recharged 2 or 3 times during the year as long as they perform well, and have them completely rebuilt after the race season.

I think most people charge around $75 to recharge a shock if it doesn't require any new hard parts. (other than seals) My shock guy gets them back to me in about a week with shipping usually.

Shock fade.......Shock fade is caused by the oil getting thinner and flowing too quickly through the valves. The absolute biggest factor in shock fade is OIL TEMP. This gets back to my previous statement about the different qualities of each oil. If an oil is too thin or doesn't take heat very well, it will cause a lot of fade. The higher quality oils will maintain their viscosity and flow rates even under higher heat loads, causing shock action to remain much more consistant. Cheap junk oils will just thin out right away and have you bouncing all over the track.

[Pappy]

thx bongwater:)

people keep pm'ing me and emailing me questions so bear with me:D


whats the difference in Long travel vs. standard?

will the average rider notice the difference if they are both properly set up?

is it pointless to run LT fronts and a standard rear?

is the current practice of raising the rear shock mount up to accomodate the LT rear worth the effort? or would it be better to switch to a no linkset up?

also...with a longer or shorter swing arm....will the effects on the rear shock be the same as wider a arms?

I just bought a pair of works triples w/o rezzies. how do i know which skill level i am? i just said advanced, is it that big of a deal? also they are being set up for woods, will they still be good on a small mx track? thanks

[bongwater200]

Hmmm....... LT vs. Std. This opens a whole can of worms! LOL If you had one of each and BOTH were setup absolutely correctly, you'd have a damn hard time telling the difference. The benefit of LT is that you have a bigger shock body with a higher volume of oil, and it makes it a little easier for the shock guy to valve because of that. You might also get a little less fade from LT because of the extra oil capacity. In all honesty, there ISN'T that much more travel with LT. Its more of a valving issue. Honestly, if you had a Std travel setup that was dialed in properly and a LT that wasn't, the Std would kick its *** in performance.

As far as running LT in the front and Std in the rear. NO, it isn't pointless. The front end takes the most of the pounding, and it also passes more of the pounding on to the rider's arms. You should always have the best FRONT end that you can afford.

As far as the rear LT setups...... its the same as the front end. The main benefit of the LT rear shock is oil capacity. Is it worth the effort? If you're truly using your Std travel shock to its limits, then maybe it is. Otherwise, probably not.

I can count on one hand all the no-link setups that work properly and still have fingers left over to pick my nose.

The length of the swingarm makes the same effects on the shock as longer a-arms, but you also have to factor in the mechanical effects of the linkage. Longer arms need firmer springs and valving.

Another thing I was just thinking of....... A lot of people love their shocks when they get them but get disappointed after they have them rebuilt/recharged. You should ALWAYS have the same people take care of your shocks whenever possible. If you had shock guy "X" build your shocks, he valved them according to the oil that HE uses. If you send them to shock guy "Y" to change the oil and he uses a different oil, your valving changes accordingly. So always send them to the same guy or AT LEAST make sure the same oil is used.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Crazy400exMan
I just bought a pair of works triples w/o rezzies. how do i know which skill level i am? i just said advanced, is it that big of a deal? also they are being set up for woods, will they still be good on a small mx track? thanks

i kinda have the same questions as you:ermm: i know how to ride ...and i can ride pretty good.....but with my bad back i cant do it all the time. so while the shocks are set up for me to race...i find them a bit stiff on the days when i just ride normal. but thanks to the new info here i can simply adjust the shocks and be happy:D

id say (like posted earlier) be complete honest with yourself and the shock company. i think this may be another issue in the "who's best" problem. take a rider who orders brand x shocks...he tells brand x he is a newbie and ride trails with small jumps. so he gets his new shocks...and they are the bomb. now fast forward 3 months. the same rider has alot more riding abiltity and has found his way to the local mx track. after a few weeks he is doing some good size jumps and bottoming the shocks...etc. i would bet that 99% of the "i need better shocks" syndrome happens this way. or worse yet a buddy with brand z shocks rags on him that his are junk...lol hopefully with the info in this thread maybe johnny wanna bee can now adjust his shocks or atleast know what course of action to take to remedy his problems.....and thats progress:cool:


now...onto some more questions:D

what are the main set up differences between MX and XC.?

are the shock manufactures adding larger rezzies to help with shock fade as seen with some newer versions of existing shocks? or another reason?

what can you tell or how do you tell your shock company in terms they will fully understand what you need? (alot of people especially younger riders get intimidated)

how are spring rates measured...as in what is the normal rate of increase/decrease?

thx again:)

[kabd69667]

Originally posted by bongwater200
The benefit of LT is that you have a bigger shock body with a higher volume of oil, and it makes it a little easier for the shock guy to valve because of that.


So if i were to order a pair of LT elkas (just an example) today, i'm going to have a better chance of them being set up correctly compared to a standard shock?

Originally posted by Pappy
what are the main set up differences between MX and XC.?



Originally posted by QuadTrix6
Motocross and supercross may require stiffer suspension while harescrambles, trails and GNCC will require a softer more plush ride.
Big indoor Supercross tracks or freestyle riders will need much stiffer shocks from the big jumps and perfectly groomed, non rutted tracks and smooth ramps but would not be good on the out door mx tracks because they can not handle the ruts and little bumps with out being very harsh. GNCC quads will need softer compression to soak up the rocks and roots and be plush.

[Pappy]

thx quadtrix but i was looking more of what the manufacture does internally to the shock;)

[QuadTrix6]

Originally posted by Pappy
thx quadtrix but i was looking more of what the manufacture does internally to the shock;)

They will use stiffer springs and a valve with a smaller hole to slow the shaft speed travel for MX. :D

[BigAl]

Pappy,you are pretty good at getting responses. good and bad LOL!

Losts of good info in this thread, but there is so much, I'm not sure I can answer anything that hasn't been already.

I posted some stuff earlier about sag, that was based off of bike setup, and it seems like you guys have pretty much proved me wrong, so I guess I'll take it like a man.

I think crossover spacers on the front shocks may be the most important, and most overlooked adjustment, but the only way I have been able to improve mine is by trial and error.

On my triple rates without ZPS, the top spring travel is 90% used just for "race sag" ( me sitting on the quad).
But that changes depending on your preload setting.

The middle spring is for braking bumps etc. and that is where you will notice a harsh or smooth ride.

I have tried measuring travel and all sorts of stuff, but the only thing that seems to work, is to play around with the spacers and see what happens.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by kabd69667
So if i were to order a pair of LT elkas (just an example) today, i'm going to have a better chance of them being set up correctly compared to a standard shock?

well from whats been posted i must assume that the LT shock allows the builder to do it better:confused: can someone clarify? and of course..why:D

[Pappy]

Originally posted by QuadTrix6
They will use stiffer springs and a valve with a smaller hole to slow the shaft speed travel for MX. :D

dont ya just love when an answer breeds more questions:devil: :blah:

ok...so i presume that there are many different valves available each with its own set of +'s and -'s. does anyone know what they may be?

and what about the type or viscosity of the oil used? seeing that there is a different demand on teh shock for mx and xc would a builder use different oils for each set up?

[Pappy]

Originally posted by BigAl
Pappy,you are pretty good at getting responses. good and bad LOL!

.

lol...like i said at the begining...i have to play both sides. and being "dicky" at times is part of it. we havent really ever had a shock thread like this without bashing so i figured id try and keep everyone on the same page from the begining:macho

I think crossover spacers on the front shocks may be the most important, and most overlooked adjustment, but the only way I have been able to improve mine is by trial and error.


from what ive gathered thats pretty much the only way. i was hoping some secret would pop out but not as of yet:scary:

[Rip_Tear]

WOW at this point in time from what I read on here this is my situation.

Get my rear shock rebuilt (not sure who by)
But I really am lost at what is the "best" way to get everything set up is, and getting front shocks! :huh I just don't know if I can handle this, I will definately be asking for help deciding on what I do! It won't be till later this year if this year.

But the thread is really helping me understand what happening with the shock and how to properly adjust the shock.

Another question, which is "better" pro and cons etc of a shock with a resivor piggy back or remote? Is there a difference? Thanks!

[modracer5]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pappy

modracer mentioned keeping a log for different track conditions. maybe he or someone else could explain a good system for doing this. i can imagine alot of the mx guys will be interested.

Here is what i keep track of in my log:
1. Track name and location
2. the outside temp and general track condition
3. setup of my bike ie.. ride heigth behind lower control arm and @ foot peg, toe setting, amount of caster in the frontend, amount of camber, tire size. type and air pressures, i also make note of the compression and rebound settings on my shocks and the location of the clip for my preload adjustment.
4. i keep track of the changes that i make at the track so i always know how to get back to my BASELINE setup.
5. i keep track of how many laps i race...pratice etc...basicly the amount of time on the shocks....so i know when i am due for a rebuild...i generally take my shocks to be rebuilt every 6 months but i try to ride alot. i also use this number to keep track of the hours on my motor.
6. i also try to make a side note if i think that i could have been better in a certian aera of track if i had made an adjustment so i can make that adjustment next time.

these are the things that i keep track of...i can be kind of an *** when it comes to setups and info kept correctly...i think it comes from my years in oval track racing.

[BigAl]

Here are some opinions on rezzies and oil.


Piggyback resevoirs, are generally smaller, and closer to the shock, that means they may not dissipaete heat quite as well.

Remote cans, are a pain to get mounted solidly out of the way, and you have more leakage issues, and the possibility of tearing off a hose.

If your name isn't Gust, Farr or Balllance, I'm not sure it matters besides personal preference.


Oil.

Heavier weight oil is supposed to increase the damping effect of the shocks without changing the shim stack or other internal valving components.


The last time I rebuilt my shocks, I went up from 10w oil to 15w oil. This was supposed to help with bottoming resistance. I don't know if it helped.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Rip_Tear


Another question, which is "better" pro and cons etc of a shock with a resivor piggy back or remote? Is there a difference? Thanks!

well ive read a ton of threads where this very issue sparked mini ww3:eek2: lol

from what ive gathered it really doesnt matter to the shock since supposedly both carry the same amount of oil in the rezzy (unless the small amount in the line isnt factored in the rezzy amount but noone to date that ive read has verified that or commented that it makes a difference)

lmfao..new question

how much better to a die hard racer will the new oversize rezzy be? does it have to be a racer for it to add signifigant life to the shock? geuss if you broke it down and could actually measure oil temp differences after a 20 minute moto or 2 hour race you might convince me otherwise...until then thats something i wont lose sleep over!!:)


as far as the durability of the piggy back vs. remote? same deal...ive heard proponents on both sides banter about it. IMO its personal preference. i have personally seen remotes hanging off quads at the end of races ...BUT that was due to the improper mounting by the owner. i dont think anyone likes the chincy hardware supplied by the shock builders. so a set of billet mounts would take that arguement away from the piggyback fans.


man its been along times since a thread made me think this hard:ermm:

sorry abotu reposting again...but i still want to know if this setup is correct....here are the measurements i took

frame clearance at the foot peg=8 inches
free sag measured at the grab bar=28 inches
rider sag measured at the grab bar=25 inches

[Pappy]

Originally posted by nacsracer27
sorry abotu reposting again...but i still want to know if this setup is correct....here are the measurements i took

frame clearance at the foot peg=8 inches
free sag measured at the grab bar=28 inches
rider sag measured at the grab bar=25 inches

if you compare your measurements to jeff's table then yes you are in the ball park. you gona buy me a hot dog and beer since we are both at the game now:confused: :p

Originally posted by Pappy
if you compare your measurements to jeff's table then yes you are in the ball park. you gona buy me a hot dog and beer since we are both at the game now:confused: :p only if you buy my ticket;)

[Rip_Tear]

I got to thinking about my question and well heres a thought, tell me what you think. :D

With a remote rezzy you can easily replace the remote part? But on a piggy back you would have to get the whole upper part of the shock replace? How likely is it that you brake a piggy back rezzy?

Thanks! (the thread seems to be slowing ddooowwwwnnnnn.....)

Originally posted by Rip_Tear
I got to thinking about my question and well heres a thought, tell me what you think. :D

With a remote rezzy you can easily replace the remote part? But on a piggy back you would have to get the whole upper part of the shock replace? How likely is it that you brake a piggy back rezzy?

Thanks! (the thread seems to be slowing ddooowwwwnnnnn.....) i tihnk its more relavent to break a piggy back becasue it is stationary to the shock body..so if something gets thrown at it..it wont move and take the force..and havea chance of breaking/puncturing it..a remote rezzie is attached to the frame....so if something gets thrown at it..it would circle around the frame...i ahve mine setup to were i can slide then around the frame with a little bit of muscle...but wont move under riding

Originally posted by Rip_Tear
How likely is it that you brake a piggy back rezzy?



It can break off in MX at the holeshot when everyones tires are rubbing and quads are banging into each other and that is why one major shock company strongly recommends you do not get piggyback and prefers remote rezzies. :macho :cool:

Originally posted by Pappy
yeah the hard anodizing is deff. a big improvement. does anyone know if any other shock manufactures anodize thier shock bodies..inside or out? and if the hard anodizing is so good....why dont others use it?


I know Axis, PEP, and TCS hard anodize. Im not sure about the other companies.

Originally posted by QuadMX18
I know Axis, PEP, and TCS hard anodize. Im not sure about the other companies. my TCS rear rebuild is hard anodized

Originally posted by nacsracer27
my TCS rear rebuild is hard anodized

Not all of them are. TCS offers many many different set ups, but you can get the shock hard anodized from them.

well i knew about shocks before...but this thread has allowed me to learn a ton thx guys. and please forgive me for playing devils advocate at times.......but i felt it was necessary to keep the thread going and keep away the bashing.

Glad you started this one because the last one I did didnt seem to work out as well due to the flaming.

And dont "play" with us because your loving playing both sides :)


First off, on the ride height issue. Your measurements changed the way they did because when you switched the crossover around, you allowed the shock to sag farther into the shock's stroke before it got into the main spring. Your shock linkage does not create a linear rate, it is a rising rate. By sagging farther into the travel, you are now getting a lower motion ratio from the linkage which causes the spring to be "stiffer"
Is this to mean that turning the spacer to let the longer end point down into the main spring will allow more sag a lower ride height and a larger "sweet spot" before the force transfers into the main spring?

I still am interested if anyone knows if its possible for the plastic type spacers to wear and allow the transfers at a different rate or time etc.


people keep pm'ing me and emailing me questions so bear with me I think it may be better if the questions were posted (dont worry no one is gonna bash you or whatever) so that people with similar problems could get more from this all.


I just bought a pair of works triples w/o rezzies. how do i know which skill level i am? i just said advanced, is it that big of a deal? also they are being set up for woods, will they still be good on a small mx track? thanks These are things that you (or anyone getting new or revalved shocks) need to discuss with the shock builder. The more info you give and the more you discuss what you intend on doing etc will only benefit you in the long run, and being truthfull is worth a ton.


Hmmm....... LT vs. Std. This opens a whole can of worms! LOL If you had one of each and BOTH were setup absolutely correctly, you'd have a damn hard time telling the difference. The benefit of LT is that you have a bigger shock body with a higher volume of oil, and it makes it a little easier for the shock guy to valve because of that. You might also get a little less fade from LT because of the extra oil capacity. In all honesty, there ISN'T that much more travel with LT. Its more of a valving issue. Honestly, if you had a Std travel setup that was dialed in properly and a LT that wasn't, the Std would kick its *** in performance.

As far as running LT in the front and Std in the rear. NO, it isn't pointless. The front end takes the most of the pounding, and it also passes more of the pounding on to the rider's arms. You should always have the best FRONT end that you can afford.

Please be patient with me on this one because its directly related to my problems getting it all dialed in.

I agree that either set up correctly will perform well, but have thought from the very begining that the longer piston stroke would allow advantages over the shorter ones and also be able to offer a more plush ride due to not getting into the stiffer part of the spring and valving till compressing beyond where the std travel gets stiff. I have kind of looked at it like the diff gained with using an aftermarket shock with a longer stroke on std a-arms compared to the stock shorter stroke stocks.

Now the comparison of the LT front and std rear is where I am finding most of my troubles. The fronts can be so push they borderline soft but the rear no matter what I have done will not get near this point. You are absolutely correct in your statement about the front passing the pounding to the rider and this was extremely reduced with the lt set up.

Now since you seem to be knowledgable and state that the mix match is not pointless why am I having so much trouble getting it dialed in.

I know thats a vague question but it seems to me that since the front has so much more to work with (travel) it is just allways out performing the rear (this has been the feeling with every adjustment made) and then I am adjusting the rear to either have a lower ride height (it sits too high compared to the fronts) and then later raising it to allow a better ride over deep whoops etc. but then with the rear too high it throws off handling and pushes into the fronts. The few times I have adjusted the fronts thru pre load increase to bring the ride height close to the rear the front became harsh and feed back was increased a lot and it seemed to push to the rear too much.

Should reversing one or two of the transfers to transfer to the stiffer springs sooner allow the front height to be raised without the harshness of the added preload as attempted in the past?

Isnt this so much fun :)

Originally posted by nacsracer27
sorry abotu reposting again...but i still want to know if this setup is correct....here are the measurements i took

frame clearance at the foot peg=8 inches
free sag measured at the grab bar=28 inches
rider sag measured at the grab bar=25 inches

Hope this helps.

You need the height measurements from the frame just in front of the peg and just behind the lower a-arm mount. You can use the bottom of the frame of if you run a belly skid just mark a line in the center of the frame. You can allways adjust the 1/2" or what ever to the bottom of the frame rail.

I think that the sag numbers you posting are confusing the people who may know the answer.

You have shown us that there is 3" diff from free sag to race or rider sag. Now not knowing what set up you have and what the total travel numbers are I cant completely answer or help (and maybe not even if I had them LOL) but you should be getting around 33% of total travel in race sag. So if you assume a total rear travel of 9" then your darn close but you still need to determine what the total height of the grab bar is with the shock fully extended and do the same for the fronts. Then get the correct ride height numbers also and if there correct or close for your use then your are seriously close to where you need to be.

Finding out how to get to the ultimate setting is still part of this thread LOL

I am with Kenny on the Piggy back v/s remote rezzy and though I have the piggys I am not all that concerned with them breaking since these things are pretty damn tough. Not that it cant happen but I am not thnking this happens any more often than ripping the remote off the frame and ripping the line.

Hopefully we dont get too side tracked with this one since either way the set up and fine tuning should be the same :D

Since were getting into valving I have a few thoughts or questions to those who know.

How much does increasing the preload effect the rebound or compression? How about decreasing it?

I have seen some changes when doing this and have compensated for most of the issues with the rear but only have comp adj on the fronts so how should we tackle or deal with this.

Now add to this the potential new softer or stiffer spring and how it relates to changes in the preload v/s rebound etc.

inquireing minds gotta know :)

[bmw500hp]

Originally posted by Pappy
thx bongwater:)

people keep pm'ing me and emailing me questions so bear with me:D


whats the difference in Long travel vs. standard?

will the average rider notice the difference if they are both properly set up?

is it pointless to run LT fronts and a standard rear?

is the current practice of raising the rear shock mount up to accomodate the LT rear worth the effort? or would it be better to switch to a no linkset up?

also...with a longer or shorter swing arm....will the effects on the rear shock be the same as wider a arms?

These are some good questions. They have been asked many times before but the outcomes are sketchy. Opinions for the most part.

Obviously these mods involve decisions that should be placed at the the onset of the project. Changes are costly if not decided before investing. And some end up like an attempt to fit the square peg into the round hole!

Having heard conflicting answers from novice to pro on many of the and realizing some of hte info is both subjective and objective it would be great to get some facts from those experienced with the combinations.

Anyone have some cold hard facts? :macho

Originally posted by 440EX4me
Hope this helps.

You need the height measurements from the frame just in front of the peg and just behind the lower a-arm mount. You can use the bottom of the frame of if you run a belly skid just mark a line in the center of the frame. You can allways adjust the 1/2" or what ever to the bottom of the frame rail.

I think that the sag numbers you posting are confusing the people who may know the answer.

You have shown us that there is 3" diff from free sag to race or rider sag. Now not knowing what set up you have and what the total travel numbers are I cant completely answer or help (and maybe not even if I had them LOL) but you should be getting around 33% of total travel in race sag. So if you assume a total rear travel of 9" then your darn close but you still need to determine what the total height of the grab bar is with the shock fully extended and do the same for the fronts. Then get the correct ride height numbers also and if there correct or close for your use then your are seriously close to where you need to be.

Finding out how to get to the ultimate setting is still part of this thread LOL i was talking about the footpeg measurement..i measured that right in fron of the foot peg mount...sorry for the confusion i sjut figure it would be easier to call it foot peg..but i ahve a TCS rear rebuild and TCS SCS fronts...my rear shock fully rebounded is 32 inches at the grab bar.....the front right behind the lower a-armn mount is 9 inches fully rebounded....then free sag is 7 inches..then rider sag is 6 inches..hopes this helps you out more

Originally posted by nacsracer27
i was talking about the footpeg measurement..i measured that right in fron of the foot peg mount...sorry for the confusion i sjut figure it would be easier to call it foot peg..but i ahve a TCS rear rebuild and TCS SCS fronts...my rear shock fully rebounded is 32 inches at the grab bar.....the front right behind the lower a-armn mount is 9 inches fully rebounded....then free sag is 7 inches..then rider sag is 6 inches..hopes this helps you out more

Now get the measurements from under the foot peg (like you did below the back a-arm mount) and then measure the travel numbers on the front frame or bumper (like you did on the grab bar).

Then that should do it, well get you started anyhow :)

Originally posted by 440EX4me
Now get the measurements from under the foot peg (like you did below the back a-arm mount) and then measure the travel numbers on the front frame or bumper (like you did on the grab bar).

Then that should do it, well get you started anyhow :) i already stated all of my measuerments..just not in the same post..here are all of them

fully rebounded rear shock(measuered at the grab bar) 32 inches
fully rebounded front shock(measured right behing the lower a-arm mount) 9 inches

free sag(measured at the grab bar) 28 inches
rider sag(measured at the grab bar) 25 inches

free sag(measured behind the lower a-arm mount) 7 inches
rider sag(measured behind the lower a-arm mount) 6 inches

free sag frame clearance(measured in front of the foot peg mount) 8 inches

Originally posted by nacsracer27
i already stated all of my measuerments..just not in the same post..here are all of them

fully rebounded rear shock(measuered at the grab bar) 32 inches
fully rebounded front shock(measured right behing the lower a-arm mount) 9 inches

free sag(measured at the grab bar) 28 inches
rider sag(measured at the grab bar) 25 inches

free sag(measured behind the lower a-arm mount) 7 inches
rider sag(measured behind the lower a-arm mount) 6 inches

free sag frame clearance(measured in front of the foot peg mount) 8 inches

The reason I asked you to post the other measurements is because thats how I have done it. This may not be the correct way or maybe it is but it cant hurt to have extra info.

What we do know from your meausrements so far is that the rear has 4" of sag and 7" race or rider sag. We also know that the quad has a ride height without rider of 7" front and 8" rear.(cant figure with rider without the rear measurement) We can also think that there is 2" sag and 3" race sag in the front but I am not sure if just measureing on the frame is correct or not for setting the front sag.

From what we do know from your measurements and using the basic ride heghts posted by Jeff (quad shop) and the sort of sag standard of 33% it appears there may be some room for improvement.

If you are using a stk rear shock travel is about 9" if aftermarket just about 10" so the rear sag should be around 3-3.5 inches give or take. This is one of the areas that I find contradicting. How can you get the proper ride height while maintaining a race sag even close to the range.

Even if you went on the high end of say 4" it would raise the rear about 3" and its possibly too high as it is.

Maybe the reduced amount of front sag is the real issue to be addressed. 6" ride height seems very low unless your racing TT, and I think if you raised the front first you may find it easier to get the ride heights flatter and the sag closer to the 33%.

If anyone knows how to fix this better please post it now because we need to know.

[Doibugu2]

Great info guys.

Here is my question. I don't like to mess with things I really don't know about.

But can someone tell or show me how to change my height and sag on my shocks. I have Elka's and I'm not postive I know how to change them.

Also, how do I adjust the preload on the front shocks?

I know these are kind of primative questions, but I'm a little behind on the learning.

Originally posted by Doibugu2
Great info guys.

Here is my question. I don't like to mess with things I really don't know about.

But can someone tell or show me how to change my height and sag on my shocks. I have Elka's and I'm not postive I know how to change them.

Also, how do I adjust the preload on the front shocks?

I know these are kind of primative questions, but I'm a little behind on the learning.


just ride the dam thing doug and quit askin questions....:eek:

well.my rear looked like it was sitting kinda high..plus last time i measured my front tire was flat....i readjusted my shocks and got all the measurements again

free sag(measured behind the foot peg) 8 1/2
rider sag(measured behind the foot peg) 7 1/2

free sag(measured at the grab bar) 27 inches
rider sag(measured at the grab bar) 24 inches

free sag(measured behing the lower rear a-arm mount) 8 inches
rider sag(measured behing the lower rear a-arm mount) 7 1/2 inches

only thing i did hear was mess with the pre load

heres a before and after pic of the second time i adjusted

before
http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/nacsracer27/MVC-002F.JPG.html

after
http://pictureposter.allbrand.nu/pictures/nacsracer27/MVC-003F.JPG.html

[Doibugu2]

Originally posted by Rico
just ride the dam thing doug and quit askin questions....:eek:

I haven't even started since hatfield!:(

[monkeyboy]

Originally posted by Doibugu2
I haven't even started since hatfield!:(


:mad: :mad: :scary:

[cdalejef]

Sorry Monkey this thread doesn't apply to forks!

Originally posted by Rico
just ride the dam thing doug and quit askin questions....:eek:

Dont take it wrong, but thats what I hear from all my riding buds who's suspensions arent set up right either :cool:

I get mine about 80% setup at different tracks and then ride...

I'm not good enough to waste my riding day turning knobs and spankin it on the side of the trail...

I guess using mine for both MX and XC I don't see spending the next 3 years trying to perfect them.. They might not be 100% dialed in but that sure doesnt' slow me down that much...Just add's more blisters to my hands I guess...:(

Originally posted by Rico
I get mine about 80% setup at different tracks and then ride...

I'm not good enough to waste my riding day turning knobs and spankin it on the side of the trail...

I guess using mine for both MX and XC I don't see spending the next 3 years trying to perfect them.. They might not be 100% dialed in but that sure doesnt' slow me down that much...Just add's more blisters to my hands I guess...:(

Point well taken and I am sure the blisters and fatigue are part of it.

Dont confuse set up with fine tuning and testing because there different.

Some of us dont have the time to make our adjustments etc before the ride so a lot of the fine tuning and feedback etc happens during it.

I know you have made changes to your suspension for mx v/s xc and you have to agree running one while set up for the other doesnt help your speed or fatigue levels..

Originally posted by 440EX4me

I know you have made changes to your suspension for mx v/s xc and you have to agree running one while set up for the other doesnt help your speed or fatigue levels..


You ain't chittin but it's the price i have to pay for loving both sides of racing. I had to do some serious talking to myself:huh about not getting into TT racing. It looks like fun too but 1 quad can only do so much....:p LMFAO Oh yeah the rider ain't worth a chit either...:scary:

[MX26]

I didn't read all the way through this post, but I wanted to get a question in.

I've heard in years past that the very same shock(setup and all) can have a totally different feel on a different set of a-arms. Is that true? Would it be possible to get a longer life and better ride out of your shocks if you chose the right a-arms? Thanks

Originally posted by Pappy



as far as the durability of the piggy back vs. remote? same deal...ive heard proponents on both sides banter about it. IMO its personal preference. i have personally seen remotes hanging off quads at the end of races ...BUT that was due to the improper mounting by the owner. i dont think anyone likes the chincy hardware supplied by the shock builders. so a set of billet mounts would take that arguement away from the piggyback fans.


man its been along times since a thread made me think this hard:ermm:

Aint that the truth.;) along wit a little bling :cool:

I remember WW3:eek2:

I dont think the crossover rings were addressed yet?

The crossover rings are a MAJOR part of the shock.Before I explain the rings I just want to note that if the main spring is to soft or stiff adjusting the crossovers will just hide the "soft" or "stiff" spring to an extent...

With that said...:D

A TRIPLE RATE shock with the properly picked springs can be enhanced greatly with the right crossover rings depending on a riders class and style.The main spring is the most important spring and most of the suspension travel is with this spring. This spring is usually the same weight as the rider. The other two rates are SOFTER and HARDER then the main spring.

Now the crossover rings come into play with the 2 other rate springs. I guess you can call them high and low rate springs and call the middle medium rate.NOTE, the main spring does not compress completely before the other two springs come into play.

One of the 2 springs is a very hard 900 pound spring This spring is for the sharp fast hits the suspension takes. using a small crossover ring on this spring rate will allow the spring to strut its stuff over high speed whoops, down hill sections that flatten out fairly quick etc.

Using a large crossover ring on this spring makes the spring change back over to the main spring sooner then with the small ring which softens the ride but will possibly bottom out sooner if the other springs are fully compressed.

Usually you want the crossover to be that certain size so the shock is just about rebounding when fully compressing on the crossover ring



The other spring rate is the softest of the 3 rates, the weight of this spring is usually around 10-80 pounds
A small crossover ring on this spring allows for a softer ride for the initial travel of the shock. changing the crossover ring to a thicker one will "crossover" to the other springs and will stiffen up the ride.

Now, people think they have a triple rate shock when what they really have is a dual rate, and as for REARS, some people think they have a dual rate when they really have a single rate with a lowering device, other wise known as ZPS or SSD, ETC.

A true triple rate shock with this lowering device is used with all three springs plus a 4th spring(lowering device)
The softest spring on some of these shocks out there isnt even used 5% of the time. Why? because its fully compressed when the bike is sitting with a rider on it, which
makes the other two springs the only effective springs in the shock travel.

I believe the only two shocks out there with true triple rate springs and lowering device is the elka quad rate and the pep ZPS triple rate. I guess wayne at pep is keeping it real and calls it a triple like it should be called;)

So with that being said, How many springs would a true dual rate REAR shock have?;)


Knowing that there are true triple rate shocks out there and "so called" triple rates out there set up can be different when trying to raise and lower your ride height.

with a true tripple rate that is set up for you all you would do is move the clip up or down.

The so called triple rates you can add smaller or larger crossover
ring to achieve the same thing.But you cant do that on a true triple rate because it will effect the ride(IE if you changed the rings on the soft spring on a true triple rate it would effect the ride)

I know some people might say who cares about that, but i thought I would mention it.:D

if anyone would care to add please feel free, I cant think anymore:confused2