416 or 440

[dads400ex]

Just a question for you guy's about the 416 and 440. Everybody seems to be really talking up the 416 over the 440 now, how come, what is better about either one? Just wondering for now but you never know when a rebuild might be needed.

Thanks,
dads400ex

i am not positive bout the 416, but the 440 is awsome, it probaby has more torque than a 416, but the 16 may be faster

[Tommy 17]

most people buy the 416 bc it runs cooler and it doesn't cost as much... the 440 needs a new sleeve the 406 416 and 426 use the stock sleeve and cost 100$ less... the 440 will run hotter and for the average rider won't even tell the differnce really on a race track... thats why i only have a 406 bc its runs cool and still gives me the power i need... they say the 416 revs quicker too...

[Dave400ex]

The reason guys are getting the 416 instead of a 440 is because of the Price, and the Reliability.

[Evan]

I am wondering the same thing, but I am looking for torque. I remember reading somewhere about the 440 being oversquare which has less torque or vice versa, I cant remember. What is the very best cam to get for bottom end. Also I have heard that a well built 416(hardened rockers, stiffer valve springs, larger intake valves, cam, lowered valve guides etc,) will beat a 440 all over, is this worth it or should you go to the 440. It seems to me that that the walls of a 416 would be thin since you are just boring it .80 over, making it better for overhauls and the 440 if you damage your cylinder walls.

[Dave400ex]

If you want Bottom End call TC Racing Engines. Everything Tom does is for Torque. He has a XC Cam that is all Bottom End. Call TC and tell him what you want and what kind of terrian you ride, he will tell you what to get.

the 440 kit with race fuel doesnt run any hotter than a 416 and they do have alot more power and if it it done correctly it has more speed has anyone ever put a 440 kit on there 400 and been dissapointed also about reliability i had my kit put on last year at the begining of the race season i race x-country outlaw and gncc i raced 21 2+ hour races plus all the riding i could find time for and i have had no problems with my engine i have 9 friends and 5 of us have 440 kits and 1 has 426 2have 416 and one is stock and all of the 440 have more speed and power than the others

i hav one on my 400, i must of had it jetted wrong, though, cause it fouled a plug afetr every ride, then it blew da piston, but when i gett it back, it will be perfect

[Matt Fisher]

x-rider, you are correct that a more oversquare motor makes less torque than a more undersquare one. However, that's assuming a bunch of things, a major one being that they are the same displacement.

A 400EX motor bored to 440cc will make less torque than one stroked to 440cc's, although the bored-out one will have other advantages, such as better RPM ability, quicker revving, etc.

Both motors will make much more torque than a 400cc motor.

Your description of a built 416 motor is for higher rpm. The stiffer valve springs, larger intake valves, cam, lowered valve guides etc. all come into play at high rpms. If you did all these things to a 440 motor, it would make more power than a 406, 416, 426 etc. Larger cams and valves normally decrease intake velocity and low-end torque, but make more power at higher RPM's.

Another thing that's really in favor of a bigger motor is it "hides" the bigger cams, carbs, etc. Take an 11:1 406 motor built with a 39mm carb, larger valves, long duration/high lift cam, fully ported, big exhaust, etc. and then drop an 11:1 440 piston in there. The power peak would be at a lower RPM, and it would really help out the low and mid range power. For pure drag racing, it might not make much difference in times. But for any type of riding that was less than full throttle all the time, the bigger motor would be better.

[Evan]

Thanks for the info Matt, I will try to use it. So if I am doing MX which I plan on doing this year, a 440 would be better? What would be best for torque if all of those things are for a high reving motor. So would the best motor be a 416 with a slightly stroked motor? Thanks for your help.

[oynot400]

Originally posted by Matt Fisher
A 400EX motor bored to 440cc will make less torque than one stroked to 440cc's, although the bored-out one will have other advantages, such as better RPM ability, quicker revving, etc.

Both motors will make much more torque than a 400cc motor.
This is true with any engine. A longer stroke will have more torque than one with a shorter stroke. I agree that a engine that is bored and stroked to a 440 would be the ultimate way to go, however money is always a decideing factor.
I have mine bored to a 440 with a WB Track cam. One of the guys that I ride with has a 440 w/ a stock cam. I don't know if he has a higher compression ratio than I do but he has more bottom end power than I do. However, once I hit the midrange I walk right away from him.
I have only gone against one 416, this guy has had everything done to it and is running a high compression. I can't get close to him. That and he is a way better rider than I am, that and 100 lighter!
I don't think that there is anything wrong with either kit.
I hope this helps. ;)

[MIKE400EX]

OYNOT400
Switch 400's with the 416 owner and see how he fares, if he pulls you by even more >>> than you know who has the healthier motor!

[Scott]

Just wanted to mention a couple of things.

1. I was thinking I read somewhere that 440 kits are only actually displacing 432cc's. True or false?

2. Anyone with questions about building a 400 should read Rico's link with the comments from TC, FST, and Dunlop.

[oynot400]

Originally posted by MIKE400EX
OYNOT400
Switch 400's with the 416 owner and see how he fares, if he pulls you by even more >>> than you know who has the healthier motor!
I would like to, but I only rode with this guy once and will probably will not see him again.
As far as the true displacement I would have to run the numbers to see what it comes to. I don't remember what the bore and stroke is. I should have the formual at home to figure displacement.

[Sparky416ex]

If you do any woods riding get the 416 the 440 will have a ton less reliability. The 416 will have more torque. And it wont need racing gas or anything like that. You just run premium. I'd go for the 416. Go here http://www.profabatv.com/ they do all kinds of 400 engine mods. This guy has done this for a long time and he will tell you to get the 416. Check out the site!!

[Sparky416ex]

If you do any woods riding get the 416 the 440 will have a ton less reliability. The 416 will have more torque. And it wont need racing gas or anything like that. You just run premium. I'd go for the 416. Go here http://www.profabatv.com/ they do all kinds of 400 engine mods. This guy has done this for a long time and he will tell you to get the 416. Check out the site!!

[kabd69667]

Originally posted by Sparky416ex
If you do any woods riding get the 416 the 440 will have a ton less reliability. The 416 will have more torque. And it wont need racing gas or anything like that. You just run premium. I'd go for the 416. Go here http://www.profabatv.com/ they do all kinds of 400 engine mods. This guy has done this for a long time and he will tell you to get the 416. Check out the site!!
That guy seems kind of expensive....just my opinion though

[400MXer]

heck yeah he is. he wants $65 per rocker arm, for hardened ones. Fischer cycle will get them to ya for $45.

[400MXer]

Keihin FCR carburetor. Includes extra jets, helpful hints and advice on jetting and adjusting the accelerator pump for fine tuning. Available in 39mm, $545 and 41mm $595

that's how much he wants for the FCR carbs.....aren't they cheaper....everywhere else?

[Dave400ex]

That stuff is Expensive. Call TC Racing Engines. His stuff is cheaper than everybody else`s and I think it`s better. He will build you a Torque Monstor. When I called him all Tom talked about was Torque. Now, he does have a 416 National Motor and 440 National Motor built for MX. I am very happy with my Pipe and Tom`s service. I will get everything from TC. Plus, he takes the time to explain everything on the Phone. If you don`t need it, he tells you that. I told him I wanted to do the Clutch when I did the Motor. He told me there was no reason to. Just run it til it dies. Anyways, Call TC and he will hook up a Motor Package for you at a Good Price.

[Matt Fisher]

oynot 400 hit the nail on the head.

Adding just displacement will have the biggest increase in power in the low rpm range. The cam shifts this power peak higher, also resulting in more peak power.

I really don't believe there is a "best" way to make power. Some guys swear by 383 chevy motors (a stroked 350), while others insist that a 377 (a bored out 350- ok, really a de-stroked 400) is the way to go. Both make more power than a 350.

Unlike the car motors, different cranks and blocks aren't readily available. Because of the high cost involved with stroking a 400EX, I'd say skip it. Also, a shorter stroke motor usually revs better, something that's important in racing. A 440cc motor will always have more power potential than a 416. The key to either is the combination of the parts involved.

I'd have to disagree with the thought that a 416 will have more torque, also a 440 won't inherintly need race fuel, this is more a factor of the compression ratio (among other things).

x-rider, are you willing to run race fuel, and what kind of budget do have for engine mods? You could run a high compression piston with race fuel and get the same basic top-end power as a 440 motor on pump gas. I'm in the process of doing the exact opposite.

Scott, I haven't seen this thread, could you point it out?

The pistons in the 440 kits range in size from 88.5 to 91, depending on which kit you get from which company.

[Scott]

The thread Rico posted is in the Open Forum and the Title is Honda 400ex tips.

[oynot400]

Originally posted by 400MXer
Keihin FCR carburetor. Includes extra jets, helpful hints and advice on jetting and adjusting the accelerator pump for fine tuning. Available in 39mm, $545 and 41mm $595

that's how much he wants for the FCR carbs.....aren't they cheaper....everywhere else?
If you are looking for a 39mm FCR I will have one for sale hopefully next week. I would like $450 for it. Let me know.

[patrick delao]

Further on Matts point I run a 440 with 11to1 and a XR headgasket which is .025 thinner then the stock 440 headgasket bumping my compression up a little more and I have NO problem running pump gas, Also have the XR cam and degreed the cam 4 degrees for more bottom end and the timing degree key. Hope this helps.

Originally posted by WarriorMan
Now, he does have a 416 National Motor and 440 National Motor built for MX

I've rode one of Toms 416 national motors and let me tell ya,,,,it's friggin awesome,,of course it's not cheap,,I think it was $1,500,,but man what a monstor,,it never stops pullin. I'd put it up against piped shee's and 250R's any day.

[Matt Fisher]

Is there a cam sprocket that will allow advancing/retarding of the cam? Or is there another way on this motor?

Patrick's a good example of a combo optomized for bottom end power. The XR cam's pretty mild, this will help to build cylinder compression (different from static compression), his higher compression, and ignition advance all contribute to what I'd imagine is very strong low-end, good mid, and not too much top end. It'd be a very fun trail or play motor, with really snappy throttle response.

Keep listening when it gets hot out for detonation, all of the factors you listed make that more likely to happen.

[Evan]

I agree stroking is not worth the money, I would only do that if I tore something up and had to go in the bottom end. Yes I run race gas, I buy it 30 gallons at a time, so high compression is no problem. I think what I will do is start with a 416 and put a bottom end cam in it, then if that isnt enough go to a 440, what does everyone think. What would be the best setup for a 416? TC cam? Larger intake valves, porting and polishing, carb, etc.

[oynot400]

To figure displacement the formula is...
Bore (squared) * .7854 * Stroke * # of cylinders = displacement

So a stock bore and stroke is 85mm X 70mm,
8.5 * 8.5 * .7854 * 7 = 397cc
I figure that the 440 kit should have somewhere in the 89mm range for a bore, so the true displacement is around a 435cc.
Hope this helps :)

[patrick delao]

Matt even with all these mods I feel my mid is the strongest. But over all I feel it has great power everywhere from bottom to top.

[Dave400ex]

Rico, sounds awesome. If you look at a Sparks 416 National Motor Kit, $1,500 for a TC 416 National Motor Kit is cheap. So it really had that much Power? Man I want to build my Motor now.

X-Rider, after hearing Rico say stuff about the TC 416 Motor, I would get that if you have the money. You would have arm pulling power. If you don`t want to pay that much, call TC (814-723-3514) and you can just get the Parts you want. He sells everything seperate, I think. The TC 425 Piston kit is $120 and the TC XC Cam is $179. I don`t think a 416 Piston would be any more than a 425 Piston. I would call Tom and ask him about it. You still have the Stock Pipe don`t you? That 416 National Motor might include the TC Pipe. I would buy his Pipe too. I love mine. If sound is a concern then don`t buy it, but if you do a TC Motor it would work the Best.

[Evan]

I am not sure about money I am trying to buy a truck and put my 250R back together, if my Scrambler sells then money wont be a problem. Yes I have the stock pipe and I dont think I will get a pipe just yet, like Rico said on a 4stroke I dont think a pipe will make a big difference and I like the sound how it is, plus if I get on a track or drag race someone it would be funny to see the look on their face when a stock sounding quad goes by them hehehe. I will either go with the TC 416 or the Sparks 416, what are the price differences vs power differences, anyone know. Also would it be better to get a complete package, like cam, boring, porting, polishing, stiffer valve springs, larger valves, shortened valve guides, carb or just get a cam, carb and boring. If I am going to do it I am going to do it right.

[Dave400ex]

A Pipe doesn`t make a huge difference on a Stock Motor, but if you build a TC or Sparks 416 you would notice a much bigger difference in Power with the Pipe.

Well Sparks is a lot more money. I haven`t heard much about the Sparks 416. You might get a little more Power, but I don`t think it`s worth the money you will save by getting the TC 416. I got the total for the Sparks 416 kit at $2939. So around $2900. The TC kit is around $1500. That`s what Rico said. You would have to call and ask Tom to know for sure. I don`t think you are gaining enough power for $1400. Getting the Complete package would be the way to go. You would get a lot more Horsepower. If you have the money, get a Complete Package.

[Matt Fisher]

The more work you do, the more power you'll make. Remember- speed costs money, how fast do you want to spend?

Since you run race fuel, you may want to consider a high compression (12.5:1 or more) piston in the stock bore. Fairly inexpensive way to make more power. Right now I have a GT Thunder 12.5:1 piston, their cam, and WB slip-on. In talking with GTT, when I go to an 11:1 440 kit, I'll gain a little torque, but not much horsepower.

Assuming your bore isn't out of spec, this might be an economical way to go. In any case, run a 12.5:1 or so piston for max power, no reason to leave any on the table.

Have you seen the "Gabe" muffler mods? Cheap way to get more flow. When you modify the motor, it'll move more air through it, so the need for a better flowing exhaust really increases over a stocker.

Generally, any cam that requires shorter valve guides and stiffer springs is going to be more top-end power oriented, and have more power potential than a drop-in cam.

It all comes down to money- the question is whether $450 spent on a FCR carb, or head work, or exhaust with your combo will make the most power?

Patrick- I'll bet your combo runs similar to mine. I love that midrange hit! Great fun. How did you degree the cam? Did the XR gasket fit around the larger cylinder bore?

[patrick delao]

On the cam degreeing my friend owns a machine shop and he had this degree wheel that tells you how much to advance it or retard it, but its very little. If you have your cam timed and your looking at your sprocket the top bolt will have to be machined to your right. See your sprocket stays still but your cam behind it moves forward toward the front of the bike. The sprocket is tough and had to machine the holes less then a 1/4 to get 4 degrees. That what powrolls said was great for bottom end. On the XR gasket I called Cometic and they sent me a 440 XR head gasket like I said the Cometic stock EX 440 head gasket is .043 and the Cometic XR 440 is .025. Hope this helps.

whats up, my first reply to this site, so ill try to make it worth it....
ok first of all, i owned a TC full race 416ex last season.....i had the 11:1 piston, full race cam, head work, stock carb at the time and onlly a slip on white bros pipe....it hauled BUTT....i ran my share of 440s and raptors down in races and even drag races ....i had the hole shot 4 out of the 10 races i was in by atleast 4 or 5 bikes....BUT, with this 416, your bike will rev higher, and i had a white bros CDI on...well during a TT race, i reved the bike to the limit and i was switching gears like crazy, but it just reved TOO high and the motor went BLAM!!!!! oh well for that motor...if i was to get that kit i would deff keep the stock cdi atleast when racing TT.....

Now with my current set up, still using all Toms stuff for my 440 with a carb and full curtis sparks racing pipe, theres not many raptors or 416s around here who will line it up with me....i dragged a esr 330r last weekend and pulled him from the gate till the end and he was soooo mad that a 4 stroke beat him.... this time i put the stock rev limiter back on and to tell you the truth its about the same but now with the dependability...IM NOT blowing this one up,hehe.....i went ahead and putt all after market stuff in the motor including a racing rod and tru=welding the crank etc etc....so mine should be good to go for this season.....but when comparing the two, the 440 i have now would have walked on that 416 i had, but again its all what you put into it and what parts you use.....TC all the way man
hope this helped a little bit, i know it was long,hehe
Jason

Thanks for the info, looks like we got ourselves another well knowledged member,,,and welcome to the site..:D

I'll let you in on a little secret,,,if you put some exriders.com stickers on your quad it will go like twice as fast as it does now..no kiddin..we've done some extensive testing on this and it really works:eek:

[Sparky416ex]

theres a reson why tims stuff is more expensive than tc's ITS BETTER. i have family members that have done stuff from tc and tim tim woops it

[Evan]

NC440EX Where in NC do you race, have you raced at rolling hills cycle park in reidsville, I plan on racing there this year, it will be my first race so I dont expect miracles.

[Dave400ex]

Good to hear you like your TC Products. I`ve never heard anything bad about TC.

X-Rider......i live in madison, the same county as reidsville, being rockingham......rolling hills is where i got all those hole shots at, i raced there last season for the first time, but not every race, just when i was able ....i will probably race the full season this year there, as well as the other places i race like blank ankle in asheboro (TT), eastbend (TT&MX),birch creek(TT&MX), a track i want to find in lexington i heard was nice, aswell as a new track that might be in the makings here in my own town....a guy that owns all the big go-kart tracks here is wanting to put in a tt track and maybe a mx track with one of his parks......should be fun!!
you should come ride with us, we practice allot on saturdays at rolling hills, but cant on the wed.'s that its open because im in college full time.....but anyways, thanks for having me rico, take care!
Jason

[Evan]

Cool I have practiced there on saturdays several times and I am trying to remember if I saw you, do you have a pic of your quad. Here is what mine looks like. If I see you there it will proably be when you go by me cuz I aint that good on that track, I have only gotten to ride my 400 on it 1 time, and I am supposed to race this year, man I going to have to do a lot of practicing. You will know me when you see me cuz I will have the 400EX with stock exhaust and all the suspension work.

hey x rider, i dont remember seeing that bike, but i really like it, nicely set up, ....youll be ok on that track, i actually like riding on their bigger track that they use for the amas.......those uphill and downhill doubles are allot more chanllenging.....just let me know sometime when youre going......i dont have a pic yet, but im trying to remember to carry some photos to lab with me so i can scan them.....ill post asap.......lata
Jason