New honda.. (yes yes again) [Archive]

trueblue450

06-12-2003, 04:49 AM

Just read this from BLUETRAX.. just wanted you to know.. I'll believe it when I see it..

"OK, rumors appear true!! HONDA is displaying an
all new 450 in an aluminum frame this September at the Dealers
Show. It's about time! So start saving your pennies. Looks like
yami was eager to beat HONDA to the punch when they heard HONDA has
been testing for the last year on this new thumper. HONDA couldn't
pick a better rider to test the new sport either, try TIM FARR!!!
Apparently, Tim has for the last month riding this new protype down
in Costa Rica and working with HONDA to make this the best RACER
made. As far as the aluminum frame, it could be an all new "SPAR"
design which is very similiar to thier 250R dirt bile and their
street bikes. Two nights ago, I heard on the internet that HONDA
might be aquiring the bicyle giant CANNONDALE and their fuel
mapping/spar frame technology. Apparently CANNON aluminum welding
manufacturing techniques are superior, even though HONDA has been
doing SPAR setups for years. Maybe we'll se a fuel injected turbo
intercooled aluminum spar framed thumper, well.....maybe, HEH!
Could you imaging HONDA making quads near Bedford PA, we could
literly ride to thier back doors to say hello (since HONDA's are so
reliable, no parts would be needed no be replaced, HEHE!!) As far
as #'s, the stock 450 thumps out 50hp without fuel injection. Could
you imagine boring and stroking this combo?? I could- easily.....
hint, hint. Anyway, stay tuned"

flyin#5

06-12-2003, 04:53 AM

well that would be the sweetest thing ever if that was true... and honda buying cannondale:eek2: that would be like a dream come true! 2 of the best brands together! thanks for makin me think about that.... now i have a flooded keyboard:(

Blysster

06-12-2003, 04:56 AM

Originally posted by 300EX_Man
Just read this from BLUETRAX.. just wanted you to know.. I'll believe it when I see it..

"OK, rumors appear true!! HONDA is displaying an
all new 450 in an aluminum frame this September at the Dealers
Show. It's about time! So start saving your pennies. Looks like
yami was eager to beat HONDA to the punch when they heard HONDA has
been testing for the last year on this new thumper. HONDA couldn't
pick a better rider to test the new sport either, try TIM FARR!!!
Apparently, Tim has for the last month riding this new protype down
in Costa Rica and working with HONDA to make this the best RACER
made. As far as the aluminum frame, it could be an all new "SPAR"
design which is very similiar to thier 250R dirt bile and their
street bikes. Two nights ago, I heard on the internet that HONDA
might be aquiring the bicyle giant CANNONDALE and their fuel
mapping/spar frame technology. Apparently CANNON aluminum welding
manufacturing techniques are superior, even though HONDA has been
doing SPAR setups for years. Maybe we'll se a fuel injected turbo
intercooled aluminum spar framed thumper, well.....maybe, HEH!
Could you imaging HONDA making quads near Bedford PA, we could
literly ride to thier back doors to say hello (since HONDA's are so
reliable, no parts would be needed no be replaced, HEHE!!) As far
as #'s, the stock 450 thumps out 50hp without fuel injection. Could
you imagine boring and stroking this combo?? I could- easily.....
hint, hint. Anyway, stay tuned"

...Then I woke up and realized this was only a wonderful dream.

:blah: :devil: It sounds too good to be true..

spincr4hire

06-12-2003, 04:58 AM

Originally posted by flyin#5
.... now i have a flooded keyboard:(

did you pee on it? :confused2
J/K:p

JHF219

06-12-2003, 05:50 AM

it sounds good but i highly doubt it !!

phatswinn

06-12-2003, 05:51 AM

once again..ill believe it when i see it, its hard to believe they would just put out a 50hp quad with a turbo and fuel injection...to dam hard to work on

insane250Racer

06-12-2003, 07:08 AM

AHH MAN! HONDA BUYING CANNONDALE WOULD BE SWEEET I LOVE HONDA AND THEM BUYING CANNONDALE WOULD MAKE ME FEEL ALOT MORE SECURE ON MY DALE!

400MXer

06-12-2003, 07:24 AM

The things about Tim Farr are true. when he broke his colar bone, it was testing the new honda quad. and he is going to be racing the yamaha in australia at the australian four stroke championship. A guy i know from nationals lives a few houses down from tim and he's good friend with him.

Glow Plug

06-12-2003, 07:36 AM

:) sounds to good to be ture

tants

06-12-2003, 07:52 AM

sounds kinda sketchy:ermm:

twisted threads

06-12-2003, 08:50 AM

IM getting sick and tired of all this talk of a NEW Honda!!! After hearing that how am going to get to sleep tonight!!;)

RoadkillerRyan

06-12-2003, 09:09 AM

awsome!! hope this is true

JHF219

06-12-2003, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by RoadkillerRyan
awsome!! hope this is true

hey thats my avatar

QuadTrix6

06-12-2003, 09:25 AM

Originally posted by tants
sounds kinda sketchy:ermm:

yea, too good to be true

400grl

06-12-2003, 10:12 AM

I believe it.....I thought Yamaha was rushing their quad for some reason.....and this would make sense. They figure that they are going to get some serious competition when that Honda comes out, so they probably decided to put out their quad early and give themselves a few months of sales before the Honda got announced. Another good reason to NOT buy that Yami the first year.

We all know Honda's been working on something - persistant rumors of an aluminum frame won't die - and it's pretty known that Tim Farr got hurt testing the new quad. The whole Cannondale-Honda thing has always just been a fantasy of mine - now if THAT'S true.....what a quad we would have on our hands in a year or two!!! Makes sense - they have the money.

Maybe I'm just too guillible, but maybe not.;) :D

400exBro

06-12-2003, 10:19 AM

FAKE!!!

i will believe it when i see it....

but in away it makes since with yammy realeasing the quad early to make profit...

06-12-2003, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by 300EX_Man
Just read this from BLUETRAX.. just wanted you to know.. I'll believe it when I see it..

"OK, rumors appear true!! HONDA is displaying an
all new 450 in an aluminum frame this September at the Dealers
Show. It's about time! So start saving your pennies. Looks like
yami was eager to beat HONDA to the punch when they heard HONDA has
been testing for the last year on this new thumper. HONDA couldn't
pick a better rider to test the new sport either, try TIM FARR!!!
Apparently, Tim has for the last month riding this new protype down
in Costa Rica and working with HONDA to make this the best RACER
made. As far as the aluminum frame, it could be an all new "SPAR"
design which is very similiar to thier 250R dirt bile and their
street bikes. Two nights ago, I heard on the internet that HONDA
might be aquiring the bicyle giant CANNONDALE and their fuel
mapping/spar frame technology. Apparently CANNON aluminum welding
manufacturing techniques are superior, even though HONDA has been
doing SPAR setups for years. Maybe we'll se a fuel injected turbo
intercooled aluminum spar framed thumper, well.....maybe, HEH!
Could you imaging HONDA making quads near Bedford PA, we could
literly ride to thier back doors to say hello (since HONDA's are so
reliable, no parts would be needed no be replaced, HEHE!!) As far
as #'s, the stock 450 thumps out 50hp without fuel injection. Could
you imagine boring and stroking this combo?? I could- easily.....
hint, hint. Anyway, stay tuned"

honda is much to concerned with reliability and durability to use something from another company, maybe taking there idea and doing it right but not the same one, thats not hondas style, and it wont have 50 hp or i highly doubt so, even yamahas quad isnt gonna be like the bike motor ill bet, its detuned to a 440 and id say is got high 30s low 40s in hp i think out of a stock quad from manufactuers thats as much as there gonna put off the showroom floor but im sure motor builders can squeez alot more out

as for cannondale and honda i wouldnt want to associate honda dn cannondale and i don think honda will either i think honda has the ability to make a quad much better than a cannondale ,cheaper too

bluebaron

06-12-2003, 10:28 AM

welli shure hope so:(

bansheerider_13

06-12-2003, 10:38 AM

well i dont believe the tim farr part because if that is recent the last month he has been riding the nationals and lets face it he wouldnt have time to be a good tester

and 400girl i though tim got hurt at the 12 hourrace thing but i could be mistaken

400grl

06-12-2003, 10:45 AM

I read that he got hurt while at an event while riding the Honda.....not too sure of the details.

I had also heard that Honda was real close to announcing their quad at the dealer show last year, but for some reason at the last minute they pulled the plug.

Makes you wonder!

remlapr

06-12-2003, 10:59 AM

Man I hope it has a STRONG full aluminum frame - forget the fuel injection. And remember, this is how the Yamaha started - just rumor, and now it's on their site and being shipped to the dealers...

Black400

06-12-2003, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by 400exBro

i will believe it when i see it....

but in away it makes since with yammy realeasing the quad early to make profit...
What he said:cool:

KrazyKid300ex

06-12-2003, 01:32 PM

where is the dealer show going to be? i want to go to one. are people allowed in or just dealers

400exrules

06-12-2003, 01:36 PM

here's a pic of the new honda right off the market, hehe dumb ole yamaha better swallow there pride and forget about the YZF :blah:

Rip_Tear

06-12-2003, 01:46 PM

It would be cool, and I can believe the part about Tim. But Honda buying C-Dale, is very unlikely. Just think about this too. How long did we actually know about Yamahas new quad before we actually knew? So Honda could pull anything... How long did we know the 400ex was comming out before it actually did? We can always look for the best, but expect the worst. Besides, the 400ex was fast enough before, its fast enough now! Only thing I would like is liquid cooling now... but I won't complain.

roostin_dale

06-12-2003, 04:39 PM

if honda and dale go together:eek2:

its like a dream come true......i would cry

cheetah

06-12-2003, 04:48 PM

Even if Honda did buy Cannondale they would screw it up and proabably detune the he11 out of it.:rolleyes:

Sparky416ex

06-12-2003, 05:05 PM

Originally posted by 400MXer
The things about Tim Farr are true. when he broke his colar bone, it was testing the new honda quad. and he is going to be racing the yamaha in australia at the australian four stroke championship. A guy i know from nationals lives a few houses down from tim and he's good friend with him.

yeah thats true he broke his collar bone testing the new honda 450....this is true

im gonna have to believe it...it all comes together....yamaha released it first but honda made sure they came out with one soon after so they didnt loose the 450 market sale...its true...ive heard about aluminum frames on the new honda too...its TRUE!!!

Carl Nevins

06-13-2003, 12:49 AM

i dont know anything more than what i was told by jeremiah jones at a mx race on 5/25 but he said he was testing both the honda and the yamaha to run in the pro production class next year. He said that the honda will debut in september.

wb300ex

06-13-2003, 02:47 AM

wooo hoooo

brim400ex

06-13-2003, 03:15 AM

It's to bad honda doesn't give us an official word on the new quad and keep us from jumping ship. I know if they gave us something to go by, the wait would be a little easier. But as of right now, blue is starting to look good. Hey honda, tell us that Big Red is not dead!

MoparTrav

06-13-2003, 03:54 AM

if honda would buy cdale, would that mean the price of the new quad (if there is one) will be 10,000$ +

400grl

06-13-2003, 05:43 AM

Maybe Honda just doesn't care if Yami yanks some sales for a few months - maybe what Honda has is good enough that they know people will be dumping their Yami's like a smelly load as soon as they see what Honda is releasing! Maybe.....;)

400exrules

06-13-2003, 06:06 AM

why would honda detune the cdale's??? they've gotta have a good reason, otherwise that would be gay

JHF219

06-13-2003, 07:08 AM

here is the deal yamahas quad is not detuned a whole lot it wouldnt take a lot of money to bring it back to the stock bike HP

Honda is a pooo c they are scared to release something with big par!! i can promise you that honda didnt make thier motor direct off the bike i bet the cylinder and the block cases are different i bet its barely above 30 HP cause honda has been scared to do anything big since 1989 !!(250R)!! now i dont doubt the alumninum chassis one bit i can see honda stepping on that boat hell they were the first in dirtbikes they werent the first in atvs but i can deffinetley see them improving what cannondale started !! i think Honda might follow yammis lead and jump on the long travel boat also !!

OFFROADREDNECK

06-13-2003, 07:53 AM

If honda does get off there ***** and make a new sport quad based on the CRF 450 motor, it will be very detuned. Honda is big on the idea of keep it simple so it is very reliable, when it comes to sport quads. Just look at the 400ex no grease fittings anywhere. When I asked the head wrench at the local honda dealer he said the do that so that way you dont have to worry about greasing anything. when something wears out bring it in and have it replaced. There is nothing wrong with this theory except that it hinders performance greatly. I fell honda will release a new sport quad this summer or fall, but it will probably be a very detuned 450 motor or a liquid cooled, bored version of the 400 motor. I dont think it will be fuel injected or have an alum. frame. I think they are just trying to do enough to get by the Z400's. I dont think it will be a out of the box racer like the new YFZ is supposed to be, because that isnt were the largest share of the market is. They wont buy the rights to the cannondales because since the company is gone they really dont have anything to fear from them anymore. I feel cannondales are the best thing out there right now, which is why I sold my 400 and bought one, but once again honda see's that they hold almost none of the market shares. I hate to keep bringing the whole market share thing up, but that is what they go on. If they can keep the largest market share by selling utitlty quads and a little bit sportier sport quad, then they arent going to risk any money or lawsuits by making something like everybody is dreaming of. I feel that is one of the major factors in the demise of the 250r. Just my 2 cents worth.

Jay300ex

06-13-2003, 08:12 AM

Just throwing some thoughts out here.

Fuel injection, turbo?? $$$ Bling - I doubt that.

Would it have engine oil circulating through the frame?

Aluminum is going to be strong enough for us to call it a Honda?

10k 400ex's in stock, Yamaha releases their new quad. Rumor, Honda buying Cannondale.

I'd just like to think that since the other manufacturers have released what people want nowadays, Honda is next, and it will probably be a doosy. I'd just hate to think of them releasing these dream stockers, and then we can't ride ATV's anymore for stupid reasons.. grr.

I work at a Honda shop, I work on Honda's a lot, and have asked about the new quad. There is no word yet.

Jay

Sparky416ex

06-13-2003, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by JHForman250R
here is the deal yamahas quad is not detuned a whole lot it wouldnt take a lot of money to bring it back to the stock bike HP

Honda is a pooo c they are scared to release something with big par!! i can promise you that honda didnt make thier motor direct off the bike i bet the cylinder and the block cases are different i bet its barely above 30 HP cause honda has been scared to do anything big since 1989 !!(250R)!! now i dont doubt the alumninum chassis one bit i can see honda stepping on that boat hell they were the first in dirtbikes they werent the first in atvs but i can deffinetley see them improving what cannondale started !! i think Honda might follow yammis lead and jump on the long travel boat also !!

first of all honda wouldnt WASTE THERE MONEY BUILING A DIFFERENT MOTOR!...they would keep the same 450 in production...i think its funny you say they are afraid to release something that compares with other bikes....they knew that the raptor wouldn't hurt there sales to bad....and obviously they were right....400ex's are still selling like hot-cakes....when they released the 400 its was AWESOME....yamaha-suzuki are the one following hondas lead....

another thing the 250R didnt come out in 89

and the new yamaha does not have an aluminum frame...cannondale does though

JHF219

06-13-2003, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by Sparky416ex
first of all honda wouldnt WASTE THERE MONEY BUILING A DIFFERENT MOTOR!...they would keep the same 450 in production...i think its funny you say they are afraid to release something that compares with other bikes....they knew that the raptor wouldn't hurt there sales to bad....and obviously they were right....400ex's are still selling like hot-cakes....when they released the 400 its was AWESOME....yamaha-suzuki are the one following hondas lead....

another thing the 250R didnt come out in 89

and the new yamaha does not have an aluminum frame...cannondale does though

You must not read very well !! i never said yamaha had the aluminum chassis !! my yamaha reference was about the long travel front !!

I never said the honda 250r came out in 89 im saying that is when honda quit making them cause they were scared and you havent seen anything that compares to the original 250r since !! not saying the 400ex isnt nice but still not as good as the R!!

I dont think yamaha and them are following hondas lead i think they borrowed ideas from them but i think they made a far superior product(granted they are not as reliable)(we dont know the yammis reliability yet) but the suzuki is nice minus the chassis !! they have long surpassed the 400ex they have all the nifty new high tech **** that the honda doesnt !!

How much you wanna put down that honda is using different cylinder?? and the block is different?? you wanna know why they had to redisign it a little?? cuase of reliability in a quad chassis !! Mark my words its not the bike motor !!

06-13-2003, 10:37 AM

i heard yamahas new front shocks on that suck and lack travel only hear say

400grl

06-13-2003, 11:48 AM

MMMMMmmmmm...could be. I haven't heard of that one brand of shock before (not the Showa's)

GETSOME

06-13-2003, 12:08 PM

I think we have been had by an "Urban ATV Legend" started by some goofy college kids

An alternate version of the legend claims the new honda will have a CNC machined titanium frame with magical a arms and a fantasy land swingarm

wilkin250r

06-13-2003, 12:39 PM

I don't think it is that far fetched to imagine Honda buying the Cannondale ATV line, fuel injection would be a nice addition. Honda always does something revolutionary with their new high-perfomance lines. The 250r was certainly better than the LT250 and LT500. When the 400EX came out, it was the biggest, baddest thing out there. What else was there to compare, the Warrior?

Honda's new quad is going to be one of two things. Either a 450, or a big 650 to compete with the Raptor and Bombardier. I can't see it being air-cooled. Whatever it is, it will be de-tuned, you can bet on that. You'll probably see HP in the low 40's. However, I don't think it will require as much money as the 400EX to get some big HP out of it.

OFFROADREDNECK

06-13-2003, 03:14 PM

Ok enough is enough. I think everone should put in five dollars and what they think the new honda sport quad will be and who ever is closest will win the pot. Have the mods here collect the funds and take the ideas and judge who wins!!!! I have always said if you aint got the balls to put up the cash then shut your *****!!! just tell me where to send my five bucks!!! A 650 honda, yea right keep dreaming.

born-to-race

06-13-2003, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by MoparTrav
if honda would buy cdale, would that mean the price of the new quad (if there is one) will be 10,000$ +

That's exactly what I was thinking.

Sparky416ex

06-13-2003, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by JHForman250R
You must not read very well !! i never said yamaha had the aluminum chassis !! my yamaha reference was about the long travel front !!

I never said the honda 250r came out in 89 im saying that is when honda quit making them cause they were scared and you havent seen anything that compares to the original 250r since !! not saying the 400ex isnt nice but still not as good as the R!!

I dont think yamaha and them are following hondas lead i think they borrowed ideas from them but i think they made a far superior product(granted they are not as reliable)(we dont know the yammis reliability yet) but the suzuki is nice minus the chassis !! they have long surpassed the 400ex they have all the nifty new high tech **** that the honda doesnt !!

How much you wanna put down that honda is using different cylinder?? and the block is different?? you wanna know why they had to redisign it a little?? cuase of reliability in a quad chassis !! Mark my words its not the bike motor !!

"cause honda has been scared to do anything big since 1989 !!(250R)!!" yep thats it...what does that make you think?

oh and i never said that you stated the yamaha has an aluminum frame....it was just a statement

no hard feeling dude...i just dissagree with your opinions about honda being a "pooo c"

Sparky416ex

06-19-2003, 03:12 PM

anyone heard any news???

GETSOME

06-19-2003, 03:56 PM

Yes, honda will be comming out with a titanium framed, quadrupal a armed, magical 850 twin with bold new graphics and a very sano gas tank with a 3.5 gallon reserve.

Honda4trax250x

06-19-2003, 04:07 PM

i hope those are true

:eek: :eek: :eek:

lol

quadfamily

06-19-2003, 04:25 PM

they're just going to put 450 stickers on the 400Ex and it should be alot faster

cyba888

06-19-2003, 04:30 PM

Honda is known for their reliability. They have never made turbos for their engines so I highly doubt they will have one on a quad. Even Honda cars dont have turbos. Thats also a reason why their engines last ;)

trueblue450

06-19-2003, 05:09 PM

who says it would be a 4 stroke??

why not a cr250 2 stroke again.. with 250r geometry.. with aluminum frame?? that would scream... why not HONDA?? why not? :eek2:

toby400ex

06-19-2003, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by 300EX_Man
who says it would be a 4 stroke??

why not a cr250 2 stroke again.. with 250r geometry.. with aluminum frame?? that would scream... why not HONDA?? why not? :eek2:
Cough cough....because 2 strokes arent going to be made anymore in a while. Also, someone said honda hasnt put turbos on their motors before, honda just came out with a 4stroke turbo charged personal water craft.

bradley300

06-19-2003, 05:32 PM

honda buying cannondale designs makes perfect sense.

cannondale's frame is flawless, its honda geometry, and honda has proved they love aluminum.

buying dale designs would cut r&d time and money buy hundreds of thousands of dollars. honda is also very good with EFI, if the dales systems can pass the honda reliability test, they have cut even more r&d.

they already have a motor, the crf 450. my guess is if this is the motor they use, it will have a real thick head and base gasket to lower compression and a slightly smaller cam to give a smoother power.

My bet is on a xr650r motor though and here is why-
it has close to the same hp, and slightly more torque, hence an much smoother powerband than a crf. the 650 is much more reliable than the 450 because there is not nearly as much stress b/c of the lower power per cc. the aluminum frame will be used to cut weight the bigger motor adds. the EFI (if its even there) is nothing more than an attention getter.

this quad will be slightly faster than a raptor, but handle like an R. JMO

GETSOME

06-21-2003, 04:58 AM

Originally posted by quadfamily
they're just going to put 450 stickers on the 400Ex and it should be alot faster

Here is someone with a sense of humor I can appreciate.

Until I see it come out, its just an Urban ATV Legend

06-21-2003, 09:01 AM

Ok if the rumors about cdale having to file chap 11 then i could very well see honda buying them out and think about this no they would not charge 10 k for a quad ok yeah lets do what cdale did b/c look how good it was for them...:rolleyes: nah they are in a money making business how many $10k atvs are you gonna sell not enough to make it worth it!!!! And i just love this guy so i htink im gonna put in him in eveyrone of my posts form now on!!:macho i think im going to throw him ontop of a 250r and see how he looks lol..Umm yeah some one in a different forum was saying how he talked to the owner of some riding place like in NC where tim far was riding and too not buy the yamaha (which he was going to buy from him) but instead just keep waiting...So why would someone miss out on selling a customer a quad if it wasnt true...eh??Damn Cajuns!

GETSOME

06-21-2003, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by Keyser_Soze
Ok if the rumors about cdale having to file chap 11 then i could very well see honda buying them out and think about this no they would not charge 10 k for a quad ok yeah lets do what cdale did b/c look how good it was for them...:rolleyes: nah they are in a money making business how many $10k atvs are you gonna sell not enough to make it worth it!!!! And i just love this guy so i htink im gonna put in him in eveyrone of my posts form now on!!:macho i think im going to throw him ontop of a 250r and see how he looks lol..Umm yeah some one in a different forum was saying how he talked to the owner of some riding place like in NC where tim far was riding and too not buy the yamaha (which he was going to buy from him) but instead just keep waiting...So why would someone miss out on selling a customer a quad if it wasnt true...eh??Damn Cajuns!

OK......

Got Huevos?

06-21-2003, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Keyser_Soze
Ok if the RUMORS about cdale having to file chap 11

ok i'd like to say they really did file bankrupcy (spelling) and i would also like to be the first to tell you welcome to the 21'st Century.

Sparky416ex

06-21-2003, 05:56 PM

Sparky416ex

06-21-2003, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by 300EX_Man
who says it would be a 4 stroke??

why not a cr250 2 stroke again.. with 250r geometry.. with aluminum frame?? that would scream... why not HONDA?? why not? :eek2:

honda will not make a 2-smoke quad....honda is very into making atv's scooters, cars, lawn mowers, ect. that emmit a very low amount of fumes

they just released a car that emmits almost nothing...and the new watercraft also emmits almost nothing

forum

06-21-2003, 06:08 PM

well this is what i have to say. i'd have to say its almost worth 2 cents. atleast 1.

Is there gonna be a new honda sport quad based on the crf450 engine sometime this year??? ... YES!

Aluminium frame?? not sure, I was told it would be expensive to produce so there are doubts about it.

Fuel injection?? i have no hard evidence of this but I personaly doubt it.

The only thing I do Know is That me and Fleshwound will be riding the new honda starting next season. They could be released as soon as august when there bikes come out. but its not forsure. Me or fleshwound have no more knowledge about this machine. I have posted what I know. people can believe it or not. ANd don't ask ware i heard it from. cause I can't tell you that. (its nothing special anyway)