Moto 440 vs. 440ex [Archive] - ATV Riders Forum

redrizza

04-18-2003, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by QuadTrix6
i agree but i guess for arguments sake equal riders....then who would win :devil

Well, a completely built up mx 440EX would be about neck and neck with a MOTO440. But, the Dale will break before the Honda, so I choose Honda. But, realisticly, if reliablility wasn't a factor, than the Dale... Those things go like hell man.:scary:

nismo

04-18-2003, 08:18 AM

but isnt the moto440 feul injected wouldnt that make a bit of a difference? i would go with the moto440 for speed and honda for reliablility. just my .02

Steve-o 400EX

04-18-2003, 08:35 AM

It would depend on how built the ex is and how good the riders are. If you spent as much money on the 400ex as you did buying the moto 440, i believe the 440ex would win. The canondale is like $12,000, after buying an ex for $5,000 that would give you about $7,000 to spend and that cash would make the ex hella fast. But all in all It does depend on rider skill and what exactly was done to the EX.

DaveEX7

04-18-2003, 11:50 AM

Id rather buy a brand new 400ex (5699) and make it a 440 with all essential engine parts(7000) then waste my other 5 grand on another 440

ex kid

04-18-2003, 12:14 PM

lets call it a sparks built 440 with pep shocks and roll a arms and swing arms etc. etc..... on the same track with the same rider (a class/pro rider) the cannondale would post a faster time, but with more of a b or c class rider the lap times would be close

DaveEX7

04-18-2003, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by ex kid
lets call it a sparks built 440 with pep shocks and roll a arms and swing arms etc. etc..... on the same track with the same rider (a class/pro rider) the cannondale would post a faster time, but with more of a b or c class rider the lap times would be close

Are you talkin flattrack, or MX?

KASCHAK

04-18-2003, 04:45 PM

QuadTrix6 what in the h3ll is that lil bouncing flame thing under your name??? :confused: :confused: :huh :huh :huh

honda400exrider

04-19-2003, 01:34 AM

Originally posted by SpeedDemin85
Id rather buy a brand new 400ex (5699) and make it a 440 with all essential engine parts(7000) then waste my other 5 grand on another 440

I've heard that in some places or all over they have dropped the prices to 5300? Cause us farmers don't pay tax :devil so would it be possible (in Long Island, NY) to get a brand new 400ex OTD?:devil

If it was a drag race, and the 400 had 7 grand to dump in the motor, I would bet my mother the 400 would win!:p

I have never ridden or seen a Moto, so as far as the track goes, I have no idea who would win.

ex kid

04-19-2003, 02:05 AM

either mx or tt. i've just herd dales are harder to ride fast unless your fast.

anywhereEx

04-19-2003, 02:19 AM

Well of course if you went dumping a huge ammount of $ in a ex then it could be faster but you have to realize what the moto has on it. It has all the aftermarket parts you would want to go out and buy including suspension. So once you got the outer part of a ex up to the moto's standards then you would not have a whole lot of $ left for the engine.

Also once you go putting a fortune in the ex motor then neither are more reliable then the other... Both will need the extra care...

And yes the efi and mapping does make a huge diffrence...Nothing like plugging in and putting the power where you want it in the rpm range so that you can have the engine running at top notch for any terrain/condition....

And no dales are not harder to ride fast....

DaveEX7

04-21-2003, 03:23 AM

I just went for another ride at the coal hills this past sunday (easter), and there was a speed up there, and there was this kid with a 440 from C/C Racing, and I seen them race up one of the hills, and the 440 from C/C beat it, but not by alot.....

After seeing that, I think its definately on the riders experience.

flaneledholes

04-21-2003, 04:40 AM

Moto=efi ex=carb, doesnt that say enough? moto will win, but not by much... but it wil smoke the 440... Hands down..

Ryan

04-21-2003, 06:53 AM

Originally posted by flaneledholes
Moto=efi ex=carb, doesnt that say enough? moto will win, but not by much... but it wil smoke the 440... Hands down..

That doesn't mean anything :huh .

Anyways, if I had 13,000 to buy a C-dale Moto or to buy a 400ex and put the rest into the thing...... I would build a crf450 quad. You can build them for less then 13,000 :o .

OutlawEX

04-21-2003, 08:25 AM

Originally posted by Silverfox@C&DRacing
I think on this I would pick the MOTO 440 to win :blah

Chef

04-21-2003, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by flaneledholes
Moto=efi ex=carb, doesnt that say enough? moto will win, but not by much... but it wil smoke the 440... Hands down..

Well, when I raced a moto back in September, one of us got smoked, hands down, but the one that got smoked didnt have black plastic...

DaveEX7

04-21-2003, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by Chef
Well, when I raced a moto back in September, one of us got smoked, hands down, but the one that got smoked didnt have black plastic...

Not to many other quads can beat your line-up of quads anyway.... but still like someone else said b4, if I had an extra 13000 stuck under the couch, Id use it on the EX.

04-21-2003, 03:08 PM

:blah :blah :blah

ESR250R

04-21-2003, 04:01 PM

i just went to a race at a local track and there were about 5 cannondale's there. the only one that didnt get atleast one dnf in the motos was a cannondale moto. the other cannondale were having difficulty running and a few were overheating (only 85 out). one guy there actually put his cannondale on the trailer and decided to take out his backup bike (ds650). it seems that cannondales are good quads while they are actually running but are quick to have problems.

jcv400ex

04-22-2003, 02:50 AM

Originally posted by SpeedDemin85
Id rather buy a brand new 400ex (5699) and make it a 440 with all essential engine parts(7000) then waste my other 5 grand on another 440

Coming from a guy that rides a 250ex....:rolleyes:

Hands down, the Moto wins. Been there done that, writing a book about it so I don't have to keep repeating myself.....and reliability issues??? A properly built 440 on race gas is NO WAY as reliable as a bone stock Moto. Our motor has taken 2 complete laps on a MX track in the A class with no oil....2 seperate times. (one burnt the oil line, two oil drain bolt fell out) and that motor is at tight as a new one....

DaveEX7

04-22-2003, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by ESR250R
it seems that cannondales are good quads while they are actually running but are quick to have problems.

Kinda reminds me of Yamaha's.

Narly R

04-22-2003, 03:57 PM

Well get this! I went to a harley shop and they had dales, so they prolly didnt know much about the dales, but the guy there said that a blaze and moto would go from 100-110!:huh I was like WTF I know they cant go that fast!!!!! If there like a 440ex then its prolly more like 80, right? Whats the top speed of a Moto and a good built 400ex? just wounderin!

4TheLuvOfIt

04-23-2003, 03:01 AM

YamaWarr0121

04-23-2003, 03:56 AM

Originally posted by Narly R
Well get this! I went to a harley shop and they had dales, so they prolly didnt know much about the dales, but the guy there said that a blaze and moto would go from 100-110!:huh I was like WTF I know they cant go that fast!!!!! If there like a 440ex then its prolly more like 80, right? Whats the top speed of a Moto and a good built 400ex? just wounderin!

also, the moto is geared differently, i think 14/38 for mx, while the blaze, cannibal, glamis, and speed are all geared for normal use. anyway, who cares how fast they can go, when do you know a time that your sitting 5th gear tapped making ur top speed matter? ...never in anytype of racing ive seen cept 1/4 mile drags...

Steve-o 400EX

04-23-2003, 04:16 AM

Originally posted by YamaWarr0121
also, the moto is geared differently, i think 14/38 for mx, while the blaze, cannibal, glamis, and speed are all geared for normal use. anyway, who cares how fast they can go, when do you know a time that your sitting 5th gear tapped making ur top speed matter? ...never in anytype of racing ive seen cept 1/4 mile drags...

For me it matters, because if ur top speed is higher, then ur cruising speed will be higher. I do a lot of dirt road riding up at my mountain house and its usually 5th gear cruising and we dragrace a lot. But this is for me, everyone does different things with their quads.

raptor_02

04-23-2003, 05:09 AM

MOTO 440 is way better than a built 440ex. That's facts!!!!!! It would take atleast 17000 to make a 440ex on Par or better than a MOTO 440.

anywhereEx

04-23-2003, 05:14 AM

AnywhereEX dont know what he's talking about! He has had 4 different quads in the last month! He needs to give me my plastic! Thats what he needs to be doing. He is just trying to find a quad fast enough to keep up with his mentor Russ!

/\ That is plain funny... Hopefully things work out for Budds creek this weekend and I will bring them. Can't help it when yall came to visit yall basically moved in and could not pack anymore parts in your montero:eek:

For me it matters, because if ur top speed is higher, then ur cruising speed will be higher. I do a lot of dirt road riding up at my mountain house and its usually 5th gear cruising and we dragrace a lot. But this is for me, everyone does different things with their quads.

And yes the top speed of a cannondale is quite a bit faster. My speed has the Blaze map in it right now and it is faster everywhere in the powerband then the 400. Higher top speed and that map is not built for it so go figure which is faster.

As for honda reliability I will not knock it because I have owned quite a few of them and gave then h$ll and they somehow stood up unlike my yamaha moto4....Go figure a 8 year old trashing out a 80 in less than 6 months to where it would take a complete frame up rebuild just to drive it. I will say that the cannondale is pretty meticulouse built and if you hear of problems some of it is due to the fact; if you have a race quad you have to take care of it like one. Not all do and problems will arise fast if not. Also it does not matter who builds your race quad things will happen causing most of us little guys to sit the race out no matter what brand machine we own. The only reason you do not see the same with the pro's is because there is so much $ backing them.

04-23-2003, 02:18 PM

MOTO 440 is way better than a built 440ex. That's facts!!!!!! It would take atleast 17000 to make a 440ex on Par or better than a MOTO 440.

:confused: :huh

I couldnt disagree more :eek:

Send me your 400ex and half that amount and it will deff kick some moto arse :macho :cool:

Fact is that the EFI, DOHC and liquid cooling of the c-dale are excelent assets to performance but with lots of cubic dollars the ex can be close in hp and still has the edge in handling (with the suspension you get for those $$'s) and the motor wont be producing the high rpm hp numbers we hear about the moto, but it will be more linear and useable if built right.

I have rode the moto more than once and I liked it a lot, but just not as much as my EX. The power in the higher rpms is excelent and it pulls hard but it just isnt the same overall.

For the record the moto is the best overall performing factory stock quad that I have ridden and if cannondale gets bought up and the new company starts making them again its the only current model quad I would even consider buying (not the moto but a lower model that would get modded out).

jcv400ex

04-23-2003, 04:00 PM

No way....

A 432cc 400ex is not even close to a 432cc stock Moto. Even with 13:1 compression and on race gas....it's still down in HP througout the RPM's. Playing around with the timing and fuel mapping on a stock Moto with the stock exhaust, I've seen dyno runs between 48 and 51 rwhp. And there isn't any handling edge either. A 400ex, 50" wide and Ohlins suspension under it, overall it will handle the same as a Dale. The Dale will be better in some situations, with the stiffer aluminum frame, and the 400 will be better in some with the steel frame. In the end, it evens out. Cannondale was not dumb, and copied the 400ex frame geometry.
If you price in the $5699 retail of a 400ex(we all know you can get them cheaper...see below) and add all the components that a Moto comes with stock, your up over $15,000. (suspension, wheels&tires, clutch, a-arms, steering stablizer, axle, etc) The only way to get to the suggested retail of a Moto, is to sell all the stock 400ex parts you've replaced, and get a 400 below the retail price.

04-23-2003, 04:43 PM

OK what ever I just make this crap up anyhow.:rolleyes:

Hope you were amused :D :blah

BTW from WTF you wrote I think you missed WTF I meant. LOL

Chef

04-23-2003, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by jcv400ex
No way....

A 432cc 400ex is not even close to a 432cc stock Moto. Even with 13:1 compression and on race gas....it's still down in HP througout the RPM's. Playing around with the timing and fuel mapping on a stock Moto with the stock exhaust, I've seen dyno runs between 48 and 51 rwhp. And there isn't any handling edge either.

Can I call BS on this one, ppppppplllllleeeeeeeeaaaaaaaasssssseeeeeeee?:blah

oldsandman

04-23-2003, 06:20 PM

jcv400ex has it right...I have both and their is no comparison.

04-24-2003, 08:09 AM

I stand behind my prior comments, and will be pleased to prove them if ya like.

Just send me one Moto, one 400ex, and the $8500.00 and I will take care of the rest :D

honda400exrider

04-24-2003, 10:43 AM

AlaskaSpeed

04-24-2003, 11:18 AM

I have to say that I recently raced an LRD 440EX; and this guy didn't spare expense with the motor. He is running the full LRD exhaust as well, the thing is sweet. He easily has as much into his 440EX as a stock Moto costs, and when we raced; I pulled him from 3rd gear on. As for reliability....he ended up blowing a head gasket on one of the passes....lmao...........JIM

DaveEX7

04-24-2003, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by Chef
Can I call BS on this one, ppppppplllllleeeeeeeeaaaaaaaasssssseeeeeeee?:blah

Yup;)

ESR250R

04-24-2003, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by AlaskaSpeed
I have to say that I recently raced an LRD 440EX; and this guy didn't spare expense with the motor. He is running the full LRD exhaust as well, the thing is sweet. He easily has as much into his 440EX as a stock Moto costs, and when we raced; I pulled him from 3rd gear on. As for reliability....he ended up blowing a head gasket on one of the passes....lmao...........JIM

thats funny because i was watching some "A" riders at a local track and i watched a lrd 440ex beat a cannondale moto in not one, but 2 holeshots. both riders are great riders and both weight about the same. i see that everyone is dogging the 400ex now that cannondale came out with there quads and the z400's are out, but i still see all honda's in the front at the tracks. everyone is talking about honda introducing a new quad. i think the 400ex is a great quad, i dont think its outdated at all. my friend has a 416 ex with a hedrick pipe and that thing rips for a 4 stroke. (still doesnt compare to the R):macho

jcv400ex

04-24-2003, 03:56 PM

ESR250R

04-24-2003, 04:06 PM

well heres a picture of the 440ex that whooped all over that moto. the kid riding it was a "A" rider whos name is mike striminiski. it isnt even his quad (he actually rides a lobo/lrd aluminum framed pv 250r). it was the first time he had ever ridden the quad. the guy he beat's name was guy sutton (very respected racer in dist 15). i wish i had some pics of the race but my camera was dead. so pull your bs meter out your *****

http://www.readsracing.com/hangtime_april_19_20/page/image9.html

actually it wasnt a lrd 440ex it was a ct 440ex (my mix up).

jcv400ex

04-24-2003, 04:13 PM

Originally posted by ESR250R

actually it wasnt a lrd 440ex it was a ct 440ex (my mix up).

honda400exrider

04-25-2003, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by jcv400ex

:eek:...startin to look like flamin to me...:eek:

James70214

04-25-2003, 01:47 PM

Ok first off you can get motos for around 10g's now. Say you get a 400 for 5grand and put another 5 into it, say 3000 into the motor and that leaves you enough for axis shocks. You still need axle,a arms swing arm, tires, rims, steering stem, nerf bars, handle bars, brake lines and many other things. For 3000 your 400 would have a well built Sparks motor or TC motor. The moto will definitely beat it. You are looking at 13000-14000 for a well built 400ex. So for 13000 you could take your moto and have South Bay do work and absolutey annihalate your 400ex competition.

RUFIO

04-27-2003, 12:47 PM

How about my a piped, jetted and fliterd 400ex (Mine) Vs. a 440ex with hot-cam piped everything............I thought i was going to be destroyed so bad, he took me by 1/2 a quad the first run and on the way back i had him by about the same....Whats that about does it need to be worn in or something first?

ESR250R

04-27-2003, 12:53 PM

alot of things can be the cause of him loosing.
1. didnt know how to ride
2. didnt have it broken in
3. weight difference
4. incorrectly jetted

ive seen piped 400's and ive seen 440's and trust me the 440's are alot faster.

04-27-2003, 04:19 PM

#5. It wasnt set up correctly and isnt making anyware near the amount of power it should due to low cyl compression etc.

raptor_02

04-28-2003, 03:09 AM

Originally posted by ESR250R
thats funny because i was watching some "A" riders at a local track and i watched a lrd 440ex beat a cannondale moto in not one, but 2 holeshots. both riders are great riders and both weight about the same. i see that everyone is dogging the 400ex now that cannondale came out with there quads and the z400's are out, but i still see all honda's in the front at the tracks. everyone is talking about honda introducing a new quad. i think the 400ex is a great quad, i dont think its outdated at all. my friend has a 416 ex with a hedrick pipe and that thing rips for a 4 stroke. (still doesnt compare to the R):macho how come Jason Luburgh always gets good starts on his DALE?? He is doing it against fully modded Z's. I love my 400ex and wouldn't trade it for anything, well......... i would trade it but it would have to be for another honda or a DALE. But the fact is the motor in it really does suck for racing. It's great for any other type of riding except racing. If the 400ex was so good I think we would see more of them in the PRO PRODUCTION class but no one wants to ride one because they no they will be underpowered vs the competition. Another fact is the only guys I see taking up for a 440ex vs a DALE is the guys who own a 440ex. I'm just going by what I have seen, not by what I own.

danyeo

04-28-2003, 09:18 AM

Hey Lenny, how about you dump 8500 into my Cannibal and i let you work on it, lol. Have you ever raced Derno? I got an HMF slip on but may hold off putting it on since i can ride my quad in a few local areas behind Raritan High school, a patch of woods you can see from highway36 by Natco Lakes or by IFF. But if i have a loud pipe forget it, cops would be there in no time. For a stock quad the Dale is loud, just wondering how a piped and remapped Dale like Derno's compares to your 440. Where did you ride the Moto at?

anywhereEx

04-28-2003, 12:45 PM

Hmf quiet inset helps alot. I just got one and it is well worth it if you need to quiet it down some. I know that FDO can get 47 out of port and blaze mapping....Not bad

04-28-2003, 03:04 PM

Hey Lenny, how about you dump 8500 into my Cannibal and i let you work on it, lol. :D sure no problem LMAO

You see the really funny thing is that I dont think I even got that much into this one yet and I see the post about the 17K going into a quad and thought whew what could we build with that. :devil :macho

I rode the moto at a demo day at NJORVP and no I have not had a chance to do an official drag but hope to when he gets the new "funky" speed/moto/blaze or whatever mapping right LOL. From recent rides I dont expect there to be that much of a diff as so many people expect.

But the fact is the motor in it really does suck for racing. It's great for any other type of riding except racing. If the 400ex was so good I think we would see more of them in the PRO PRODUCTION class but no one wants to ride one because they no they will be underpowered vs the competition.
Thats somewhat true for this year but not true for last year at all. You will still see them out there as the ex has been around a while now and some have found it easy to work with and are competitive on them with the strokers and larger bores etc.

Remember that the 400ex is what started this 4stroke performance war between the mfg's and there are plenty of aftermarket parts and motor knowledge around also. The only things the 400 lacks for racing (especially a 2 hour xc) is liquid cooling and DOHC and some dont even find the cam/cams thing important since most 4stroke motors dont rev high enough in XC to get all the gains of the DOHC anyhow. The liquid cooling would be great though and would make everything more stable on the longer races by "controlling" the temps.

danyeo

04-28-2003, 04:37 PM

Yeah, give me 17k and i would still be happy with my stock Cannibal but i would get a jet ski for those 95 degree days in July when sucking in dirt comes in second to hanging outside Jenkins sippin a Pinta Colada.

04-28-2003, 05:44 PM

And they crack my nuts for jumping in the boat or skis when the hot summer stuff rolls in.

now how about some lt suspension for the xp :D

danyeo

04-29-2003, 04:05 AM

Originally posted by anywhereEx
Hmf quiet inset helps alot. I just got one and it is well worth it if you need to quiet it down some. I know that FDO can get 47 out of port and blaze mapping....Not bad
Yeah i saw that on the HMF website, looks good. Hopefully it keeps it under 100 decibels.
Back to the topic. I myself saw a 440 race a Piped raptor at Claytons which is loose sand. Both quads had Sand Sharks on. The 440 had cam and carb upgrades as well. They were pretty close, the 440 had a slight edge as they dragged a bunch of times. And i know a piped Raptor should be close to Dales so i could see how a 400 with 6000-8000 can run with Dales in drag situations. Of course if you wanted it totally setup for mx then i guess you would want to spend more. The 440 and Raptor i saw got blown away though by modded Banshee's and 250r's.

LapTraffic

05-01-2003, 03:00 AM

Looks like Im getting to the party kinda late, but as for the top speed question, that's just a function of gearing, and having a motor strong enough to pull it. There was a guy on Cannondaleriders 'Desert Racer' who was hitting over 100mph with 14/37 gearing

not too shabby

05-01-2003, 05:50 AM

This just in.

A certain members old red cannibal was recently uncrated only to be beaten by 6 bike lengths by a 416 with a female rider :D :macho :devil

LapTraffic

05-01-2003, 06:08 AM

Try starting the Cannondale, its the green button on the left handle bar :)

jcv400ex

05-01-2003, 06:10 AM

And it does have more than one gear....the shifter is still on the left...:o

DaveEX7

05-01-2003, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by LapTraffic
There was a guy on Cannondaleriders 'Desert Racer' who was hitting over 100mph with 14/37 gearing

not too shabby

Not shabby at all..... what did he have on his C-dale?

LapTraffic

05-01-2003, 11:50 AM

He didnt go into it but from what I gather it's the typical Map and full pipe and that's pretty much it. After that it cost quite a bit of money to upgrade. Southbay has an amazing upgrade but it's $$$$

Im not sure what size tire he was running in the rear either.

DaveEX7

05-01-2003, 11:53 AM

Where was he riden at, that he could go 100mph?

LapTraffic

05-01-2003, 12:01 PM

I cant remember the race, it was a desert race of course.

This is the thread where he said the over 100mph, his next response was that it took about a mile to get to that speed.

http://www.cannondaleriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1191

Im not sure because I get confused keeping real names with the user names but I think they are ACE racing out of Nevada... NIc Grundland is one of their riders. Again, dont quote me on that, but Im pretty sure.

DaveEX7

05-01-2003, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by LapTraffic
I cant remember the race, it was a desert race of course.

This is the thread where he said the over 100mph, his next response was that it took about a mile to get to that speed.

http://www.cannondaleriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1191

Im not sure because I get confused keeping real names with the user names but I think they are ACE racing out of Nevada... NIc Grundland is one of their riders. Again, dont quote me on that, but Im pretty sure.

Well anyone who can get their quad goin 100 has gotta have alotta work done to it.

05-02-2003, 03:33 PM

Try starting the Cannondale, its the green button on the left handle bar

And it does have more than one gear....the shifter is still on the left...

Funny guys :blah

I think he knew how to start and shift it pretty well. I wasnt there so I dont know all the details etc so dont get on my arse cause I need all of the 440cc's to do that :macho