hardened rockers???

[hsr]

i have a web cam (all around) heavy duty valves springs, and a wiseco 11:1 compression piston. i guess it is to late to be asking this but everything is installed and i decided NOT to harden the rocker arms. has anyone not hardened the rockers and had good results? 50% of the people say you should and the other say you dont have to . Now i realize it wouldnt hurt to have them hardened but i was just wondering if everything will be ok without??? please help

[EXDUNER127]

Dude, I would have highly recommended HR's because you r just gonna have to spend more in the long run, cause that cam is to hard on your rockers and it will wear them out thats why im getting a hotcam so I dont have to woory about HR's. I know you didnt want to hear this but racing is expensive!

[400MXer]

It depends i think....if you've got a drop in cam then they will be alright. if you have a full race cam then yes you need them.

Not positive on that though. I have a full race cam and my builder siad that i should get them.

[hsr]

bump

[quadrcr87]

you should be fine i got the mid to top cam from web and they said i didnt have to

[shamisc]

If you read the bright orange paper that comes with the cam, it says they HIGHLY RECOMMEND Hardened Rockers. I did the same thing you did last summer. I said oh hel!, they'll be alright, WRONG!!! They destroyed my cam!! I just bought a new mid-to-top cam from WebCam along with their hard welded rockers! If you don't have anything wrong with your cam yet, order just the rockers!! It's cheaper to get just the rockers instead of 2 cams within a years time. I got mine from Magic Racing for $250 w/ $125 core charge, seems pricey but it sounds like goood insurance to me. You got to pay to play, this stuff don't come cheap! Just make sure that you follow their break-in instructions and you shouldn't have any problems. They say to start it up and let it run at no less than 2000 rpms for 10-15 mins. I just turned my idle screw up and pushed it out in the yard and let it run for 15 mins. Make sure your bike has good fresh oil, and enough of it. Hope this helps 'ya. ;)

[quadrcr87]

i only have experience with a 250x not 400 so it might be different

[Mr_Bub400ex]

u got a harder cam, harder springs, so the only thing not hardened is going to fail which in this case is your rockers. give C&D a call, i believe they just quoted me $210 for hardened rockers. not sure but its around there

[Mxbubs]

DO GET THE HARDENED ROCKERS!

If you dont, you WILL destroy the rockers and the cam.

Dont ask me how I know this.:D

[crashinmatt]

well, i dont know if this helps, but i bought a WB "track" cam last spring and put it in without hardened rockers. ive been runnin it almost a year, and when i took my head cover off a month ago, there was no sign of any wear. i was always told if u get heavier springs, then u should harden them due to more stress on them. plus break in and makin sure the clearances r correct is very important. but i believe the "track" cam is identical to one of the WEB cams, not sure which one. but WB's instructions doesn't call for hardened rockers, and the cam with same profile from WEB does. go figure.

[Colby@C&DRacing]

I agree Get The Rockers..... The web cam will eat those stock rockers for lunch beleive me I have had no good experience with the web cams and stock rockers:(

[wilkin250r]

WebCams takes a normal camshaft and grind some parts off, then builds up the material by welding on top of the surface where the rockers sit. Then they grind it back down to the desired profile. As a result, the lobes now have a different, harder metal on the surface then a normal camshaft. Basically, you need to do the same thing with the rocker arms or the camshaft will chew them up. This is why you hardface the rockers, because you have basically hardfaced the camshaft.

Hotcams creates a whole new camshaft, which is the same metal as the stock camshaft. If it's the same metal, just a different profile, you obviously don't need to hardface your rocker arms. This is why Hotcams are known as "drop in" cams, because you don't have to hardface the rockers, it's the same material as the stock cam.

With a drop in, I'd reccomend new rocker arms, because your old ones are already "grooved" but they are not necessary.

[shamisc]

There again, Hardness issues! Hard materials on soft materials ain't kosher!! HotCams states that you should NOT use hard faced rockers or HD springs!! Even with the stage 2 HotCam, it's still a mild cam. Just a little more than stock. I would think your best bet is the XR400 cam. JMO!:rolleyes:

[Big - D Racing]

Who cares about hotcams, the issue is with a web cam. I had the 450/451 grind and I was told by web no need to run hardened rockers all though it never hurts to have them. I ran it with stock rockers for 10 months with no problems at all.

Do any of you guys know if maybe Webcam uses diff a hardness when the metalize certain cams and how hard the cams are?

BTW WB track cam=Webcam 450/451

Side note: Had the hotcam stage1 running w/stk rockers and aftermarket springs for over 6 months and no measureable wear at all.

[CBRSLIDER]

Had the web 450/451 and stock rockers in for just over a year. I changed my oil after every race and just tore the motor down. WHAT A MESS!!! The stock rockers are toast. The cam is junked. The head may also be a total loss. GET THE HARD FACED ROCKERS. I am now buying new rockers and a new hotcam. Nothing like adding about $200 to my motor that I didn't plan to be doing so soon. And that doesn't count the possible head that may need to be replaced. Get the extra insurance. WISH I WOULD HAVE.

Ray

CBR think about your options b4 jumping in further.

I am thinking that all that happened because the cam was "hard welded" and most likely the reason it ripped through the softer faced rockers.

Now I know that certain members have had better sucess with the stk rockers and that same cam but they had been testing different oil cooling set ups etc, and I have to admit I have not seen any recent results from them either, so far its only been shown that the hard cam and soft rockers survived in the short run only. Maybe we will see some info from those who had better success etc.

I also have to admit that I am more than a little curious why "The cam is junked" since it should have done the damage not been the victim etc.

What I am thinking is if you allready have rockers that have been worn down why not have them metalized or hardwelded etc and just pick up a new cam (if its junked) and be back at it. That should save you some $$$ over buying everything new etc and even more if the cam isnt really trashed.

Please tell what happend to the head as I cant see what the mis match of the cam and rockers could have done there, and I am beginning to think about if there isnt other problems that could have contributed or caused some of the damage you describe. It just doesnt seem that a worn rocker would damage the head, but please let us know your thoughts on what happened there.

[CBRSLIDER]

440,

Not a problem. I'll take some pics of the damage. From what I understand, the normal damage from a hard cam on the soft rockers is a line gets worn into the rockers. My situation is actually different. It actually looks like someone put sand in the top end. The rockers and cams lobes have grooves worn into them. It will be better to understand when I take the pics. But the head also seems have had the races grooved also. Believe me it is a real mess.

Also the reason that I am going to the new stock rockers and hotcam is two fold. First is that the time to get the current rockers hardwelded is about 2-3 weeks and about $65 a rocker. Hence the season starts in about 2 weeks and I don't have the extra cash to pay for the rockers and cam to be fixed. Second is that the new stock rockers and hotcam will be had at a substantially lower price than retail due to my current sponsors. They are really hookin me up. Remember they need me to be racing to get their name out there.

I'll try to get the pics today when I get out of work and get some sleep.

Ray

wow it sounds like you got yourself a real mess there. Hope it all works out etc.

Thanx for the input and I will be looking for those pics.

[CBRSLIDER]

Finally got some pics of the carnage. Unfortunately they aren't as good a quality as I expected from my camera. Actually looks like I used Chadexers camera. But if you look close in the pics you can make out some of the damage.

[CBRSLIDER]

this one and the one above show the scoring on the cam lobes. the pic quality is bad but there are actual ridges worn into the cam.

[CBRSLIDER]

another.

[CBRSLIDER]

sorry for the poor quality pic, but this and the one above show the signs of the worn, scored rockers. once again they are worse than they look in the pics.

[CBRSLIDER]

this one and the one below it are just close ups of the scored rockers.

[CBRSLIDER]

:(

[CBRSLIDER]

rrr

[CBRSLIDER]

this pic shows the scoring in the race where the bearing sits and also the scoring in the race where the cam itself rides.

[CBRSLIDER]

last one

[CBRSLIDER]

Well there is the carnage. Fortunately my sponsors have been great to me and have really helped me out. I just pressed the cam sprocket onto my new hotcam cam. Just waiting on the new stock rockers. Compared the hotcam to the webcam and can't wait to see how the new cam works. I was actually running a stage 2 profiled webcam and the new cam is a stage 1, which should move my power to the lower end.

later
ray

[hsr]

hey cbrslider , thanks alot for the useful info, i just had a few questioins for ya

-did your machine start "ticking" like a mother when the rockers started to wear. i heard that that is a good sign that they are starting to wear?

- did the worn rockers affect the performance of the machine at all ? loss of power etc.?

-did you only notice this once you took it apart to look at it or did you expect this to happen

-finally, how long did it take for them to go ,

answers would be GREATLY appreciated , thanks alot man

[hsr]

bump

[CBRSLIDER]

HSR,


-did your machine start "ticking" like a mother when the rockers started to wear. i heard that that is a good sign that they are starting to wear?

-actually no I never heard them ticking. I adjusted the valves several times during the year that I had the cam in.


- did the worn rockers affect the performance of the machine at all ? loss of power etc.?

-I never noticed any performance loss. I did notice half way thru last race season a very had starting habit developed. I even went thru the jetting to try and cure it. I don't know if the worn rockers or cam lobes were causing the intake to not work right but something went wrong. It even started rough with a new high amp battery.


-did you only notice this once you took it apart to look at it or did you expect this to happen

-yep I just found it when I took the motor down for a fresh piston and rings. No I did not expect it.




-finally, how long did it take for them to go

-it happend in just over a year.

I had a nice talk on the phone with my motor builder today but unfortunately he was not able to inspect the parts. We kinda narrowed the culprit down to extended idle. He explained that the cam needs to be bathed in oil and when the motor is just idling for extended periods of time, it starves the top end of that much needed oil. Thus resulting severe carnage in the top end. SO don't let the motor idle for more than a minute at a time. Also use a good oil.

As for the hardened rockers. I forgot to ask if that would have helped or if they would have beened ruined also.

If I get any more info on this I'll pass it on. I would rather everyone else learn from my hard expensive lesson than to learn on their own.

Ray

[hsr]

hey thanks alot for taking the time to answer my questions , they helped alot , you see i just had a webcam (mid-top) heavy duty valve springs , new valves , new piston and rings , (wiseco 11:1) getting it ready to race this summer. i haven't even got a chance to start it yet. The guy that i had do my motor is very good , and has a good reputation in my area. i trust him 110% and he said that the hardened rocker arms weren't a "must." I know that webcam reccomends hardened rockers but you can do without them. Well i guess what im trying to say is that my motor is already put back together and i dont't have the $ to put hardened rockers in it anyways so i'll just have to wait someday until they go (hopefully that day doesn't come very soon). i appreciate your reply. I'll just have to watch the idling like you said and change the oil very frequently, that's about all i can do.
hey i just noticed you are from johnsonburg, im from st marys if it's the same johnsonburg im thinking of? , well anyways thanks agian later

[CBRSLIDER]

st marys pa? elk county?

[hsr]

yep , that'd be the place

[bmw500hp]

[i], it starves the top end of that much needed oil. Thus resulting severe carnage in the top end. SO don't let the motor idle for more than a minute at a time. Also use a good oil.
Ray [/B]

HSR, Mickey Dunlap has mentioned that his oil cooler kit may "eliminate the need for hardened rockers".....by routing a dedicated line that delivers cooled oil directly to the valvetrain.

I was unaware of a lack of flow issue at low rpm...:eek:

[Big - D Racing]

I can have mine idle for an hour and not have to worry about nothing. Why? THe Four Stroke Tech Oil cooler puts oil directly on the cam and rockers while it is idling. That's why a $120 investment in that kit is worth every penny, not only does it protect while it idles it also lowers oil temp up to 40 degrees. And yes hardened rockers would have saved them. And with web cams you do need hardened rockers I know because I had a web cam 450/451 grind without hardened rockers and it ruined them. The 463/9i grind is the exact same, both will ruin them. Check them in a month after riding and you will see signs of wear. Get them hardened now before it is too late.

Cant tell a lot from the pics but it does look like the cam got scored worse than the rockers, but tell us if thats what you see in person.

I have heard about the oiling issues b4 and am making a decision soon on what way to go about it all. I like the idea as much for cooling as the other issues like additional oil in the top of the engine etc, but am still not sure which one or way to go etc.

The web cam 450/451 should deff be used with hardened rockers and I believe from a conversation with them that most all of the cams for the ex need them also.

May have said this allready but hard cam surfaces need hard rocker surfaces or one of them is going to wear.

I have to wonder what caused the wear on your hotcam stk rocker set up because I have not seen any others like that. I guess you could have your engine guy take a look and let us know etc.

PS thanks for the pics, and I was lmfao with the "chadexr camera" thing.

[bmw500hp]

Is this dispute really stemming from necessity or the fact that it's hard to justify the $$$$ spent on a cast part with a secondary process involving little to no material.

After spending225.00 monthly on Blue Cross and Blue Shield, any more insurance is a real tough thing to stomach!

Core + 125.00 for ( hardening)....Just what is involved in the hardening process justifying 125.00 in expense. Someone please ease my pain and explain :confused:

Core + 125.00 for ( hardening)....Just what is involved in the hardening process justifying 125.00 in expense. Someone please ease my pain and explain

More bad news, as its about 225.00 to 250.00 or so I am told.

[86atc250r]

Hmm... Last I checked the Web 450/451 was not a hardwelded cam - only ground. In fact, the one I measured had a smaller base circle than stock. Have they changed it?

Were you running the 450/451 or a different cam Ray?

Also, not sure about oiling issues at idle. Last time I adjusted my valves my o-rings gave it up. Let the engine idle for a few minutes and they were leaking all over the place. If enough oil is in the top end to leak past tightened covers at the ends of the rockers, I have a hard time believing there is not enough there to adequately lube the cam at idle speeds - especially considering oil into the top end must travel thru the cam before being dispersed elsewhere.

Ray, I think you'll be really happy with the Hotcam vs the Web 450/451 grind for the racing you do. I have two identically prepped engines, one with a Hotcams Stage 1 and the other with a 450/451 (no hardened rockers and no trouble so far) - the Stage 1 Hotcam engine is a much more XC friendly engine with nice power throughout the band, not so sure it isn't faster as well.

[bmw500hp]

Originally posted by 440EX4me
More bad news, as its about 225.00 to 250.00 or so I am told.

Oh well, the next time I go out to buy a 14ft box trailer, I'l just pay with a pocket full of hardened rockers...:blah

Oh well, the next time I go out to buy a 14ft box trailer, I'l just pay with a pocket full of hardened rockers...

:eek: :D LMFAO

Well if I ever get tired of getting ripped buying parts for the quad I can allways just pick up some things for the boat to fill the "I just got taken" feeling.


Just curious but is that a bunch of hardened rockers in your pocket or are you just happy to see me :D :blah

[wilkin250r]

Last time I checked, you could send your rockers in to get the hardface put on them for $75 per rocker...