What is the "issue" with ATV MX RACING?

[Logan #34's Dad]

It appears to me that ATV MX Racing is becoming less and less "popular".
At the 1st ATV National in Georgia this year the numbers were down by over 200 riders.
Most of those were very low counts in the youth classes.
I'd like to here peoples thoughts on this and how you'd fix the problem.

My 2 cents:
I think one of the main issues is, All these tracks Nationwide that refuse to allow quads to race, practice, ride at their tracks.
What parent is going to go out and buy his son a youth ATV to ride around IF the kid has nowhere to ride it.....
When you cut down an already low pool of riders, That won't be good for the sport.

[blacknblue#2]

Your exactly right, the lack of tracks to ride kills quad mx, How many ppl have the benefit of having enough land to build their own private practice track on. Plus cost.......I know aftermarkets kept quad mx alive in the mid 90's/early 2000's but I feel like they also helped kill the sport in the late 2000's. How many average ppl can afford a several thousand dollar setup.....Not many, and if they don't have it their not competitive. I have friends that are into old cars they can buy similar to parts for a car less than they can a quad. Take cam shafts for example, price a cam shaft for a quad and one for a V8 of any sort. Now your getting guys like me who come thru the haydays of quad MX while I was living under daddys roof, I dropped a ton and I mean a ton of cash on quads for about a 10 year span that I would kill to have back. I now have a mortgage and kids, I remember what I spent when parts were cheaper and know that I cant afford to do that ever again so I switched to bikes.......Jerk it out of the crate and ride the piss out of it in any class. With that being said I bought my boys their first ride this weekend........knowing what I spent on quad when I was racing, knowing I want my boys to race and knowing parts wont get any cheaper I bought them a........BIKE. I know my kids will probably end up a weekend warriors just like me but if theres a chance one of them has a skill to make it to the pro ranks I don't want to waste 16 years of throwing money at a quad that will never make any of that money back. It makes me sad, quads were and still are a big passion in my life and always will be. If the big 3 or big 4 would have all released a TRUE MX quad in 2004 and the National series had put a limit on setup then I think it would have done better.

[BlasterEaten250]

^^ what he said. I spend half the money on my dirt bike than my 4 wheeler, yet I ride my bike twice as much. Simple math!!! Make aftermarket for ATV's cheaper or start updating them with something other than bold new graphics. And this is coming from a person who was always a die hard quad guy. It's hard to stay committed to something the manufacturers put absolutely no effort into.

[quad2xtreme]

1) More competition from alternative sports than used to exist
2) More widespread news of injuries and deaths have many parents wanting to protect their kids
3) Internet
4) Video games
5) Most revenue from operating tracks come from bikes that don't like quads because quads flatten tracks either repacking the soil or whipping it off the track in berms until back to hard pack.
6) Bikes can exist without quads but quads cannot exist without bikes
7) Quad racing is comparatively boring IMO...and I raced quads myself. When I flagged or scored, I way preferred bike races even though I never raced a dirt bike in my life.
8) I've figured out at my own track that quads race but they don't practice much. They are too busy saving funds for next big race or are in repair mode. As tracks don't see much revenue in quads, they started cutting them out. Tracks aren't going to lead with "build it and they will come" as they've been there and failed. It will take an organized, grass roots effort for quads to form clubs and get track time. I know only 2.5% of my revenue comes from quads practicing at my track and I am the only track in VA that allows quads every weekend. Recent example...222 riders in a weekend...6 quads on a Saturday and 2 on Sunday. That was a whopping 3.6%. Revenue from bikes = $5,350, revenue from quads = $200. Not hard to see why many track owners just say it isn't worth the added effort of pushing the dirt back onto the track, dealing with split practice class, etc.

[brian250racer]

6) Bikes can exist without quads but quads cannot exist without bikes(?)

I am not sure I would buy into that one. But I could be wrong, it's happened plenty of times before!

If the original question was only in regards to the ATV-MX Nationals, I can honestly say unless a race comes close to my house, I just can't afford to travel to them. And on top of that, the vacation time necessary to cover all the travel time... During our local districts 24(+/-) races, with myself and 2 kids racing, I can easily drop $250-300 a weekend(gas, gate fees, entry fees). I know there are only 10 round of the nationals, but even when the Unadilla race comes up(45 minutes away from home), the last time I raced that one it was close to a $500 weekend. Simple math applied to actual track time equals out to getting considerably more race time/track time staying local.\
*Disclaimer* These are only my opinions on the matter and can no way be used against me.. And like I said before, maybe i'm wrong...

[quad2xtreme]

Just meant that tracks can survive on bike only revenue (lots of them do) but no track is going to survive on quad revenue. After awhile of low participation of quads at open practices, they just get cut out of the program. I've seen it happen over and over.

The way to solve the quad crisis is through the formation of riding clubs that guarantee turnout. If a club guaranteed 50 quads, most tracks would groom and open for them. If it just keeps being 2 or 3 quads here and there and the owners have to make special provisions and offer dedicated track time, it won't be long until that $75-$100 isn't worth it compared to the bikes coming in to practice. In some cases when there are 2 tracks near each other and one has quads and the other doesn't...the one without quads will actually pull in even more bikes. So you can possibly get 2-3 quads but lose 10 bikes to another track.

Sort of like a restaurant...they pull items off the menu that don't generate as much revenue. It isn't that they aren't making money selling raisin cookies but it is a hassle to make them and put them out there when they are selling 90 chocolate chip cookies for every 10 raisin cookies. Soon enough they factor in the time and energy and conclude the net contribution to the bottom line from raisin cookies isn't worth it.

If I didn't make it clear, FORM CLUBS, FORM CLUBS, FORM CLUBS!!!

[matt14c]

It just costs too much damn money. Pretty simple. Cheaper and easier to race bikes or hell even cars. I raced motocross pretty heavily back 2002-05. Had a decent job and still lived at home. Had a quad/trailer/tools stolen and got out of it. Still had a quad but just trail rode and rode recreationally. Getting back into racing now again but doing Hare Scrambles. Shockingly there is many more events closer to me and the cost is cheaper. My local MX track is $35 to practice for quads. You want to race you have to have their membership card which is just them not AMA or anything. Thats $30 then to race is additionally another $35. Also the cost to be competitive is much lower than motocross! You don't need $4,000 in suspension. I don't have to drive hours upon hours to get to races. I can do the entire district 14 hare scramble series and the furthest course is a little over 3 hours away. Which is damn reasonable. I just bought wheels and tires for my quad and my mustang. Quad wheels and tires were $1100 the cars were $1400. Someone else made the comparison for cams. etc etc. I love riding. I miss the competitiveness of racing but what I've spent in the last 2 months on parts on a VERY mild build XC quad really has me shaking my head. Thats for me. I can't imagine for a whole family or couple children. I grew up on quads. But if I had children Id buy them bikes before quads. From what I remember it being to seeing what it is now. I don't see quads lasting much longer on the tracks. Id start trading in the long travel suspension for an oversize tank.

[josborn]

This has been an interesting pattern to watch over the last 18 years. I wondered when it would start to get to this point. Here's what I have seen. New family comes in races local for a year maybe 2, and then gets talked into Nationals. "That's where everyone is at". So they do. It usually lasts 4-5 years depending on the kids age, parents credit limit, whatever. They get out because they are burnt out or just plain out of money. Now what does that do to the local tracks???? Its the same idea as support local businesses, keep them around, keep them open, except now your paying Walmart (Nationals) double or triple in price. And now a lot of the local tracks are like hey you guys got Nationals why should we run you whenever you got no place else to go?? Or not many show up because they are saving money for national or training for nationals. Tracks giving up on quads locally is a byproduct of the National machine. From a third party perspective it looks like some master plan to rid the planet of Atv racing by giving us a Utopian (Nationals) society, yet we don't realize the effects of it at home. You are sleeping with the smallpox blankets you fools! Ha ha. Seriously just how I have seen it progress.

If you really want to turn it around, ride local, support local, numbers talk.

[blacknblue#2]

This has been an interesting pattern to watch over the last 18 years. I wondered when it would start to get to this point. Here's what I have seen. New family comes in races local for a year maybe 2, and then gets talked into Nationals. "That's where everyone is at". So they do. It usually lasts 4-5 years depending on the kids age, parents credit limit, whatever. They get out because they are burnt out or just plain out of money. Now what does that do to the local tracks???? Its the same idea as support local businesses, keep them around, keep them open, except now your paying Walmart (Nationals) double or triple in price. And now a lot of the local tracks are like hey you guys got Nationals why should we run you whenever you got no place else to go?? Or not many show up because they are saving money for national or training for nationals. Tracks giving up on quads locally is a byproduct of the National machine. From a third party perspective it looks like some master plan to rid the planet of Atv racing by giving us a Utopian (Nationals) society, yet we don't realize the effects of it at home. You are sleeping with the smallpox blankets you fools! Ha ha. Seriously just how I have seen it progress.

If you really want to turn it around, ride local, support local, numbers talk.

While I agree with everything said, I feel we are way too far gone to turn it around. I know your track shows no favoritism to either side but your one of the few. A local track to me (buckeye hills) has an awesome track, They do let quads ride however if a quad shows up we get utterly disrespected by the bike guys. to the point its not fun for the quad guys to even go back. we do it for fun. Not to get flipped off, cussed, roosted and plain out disrespected by a bunch of spoiled kids. Us quad guys can face it. Dirt bikers killed us!!

[quad2xtreme]

This has been an interesting pattern to watch over the last 18 years. I wondered when it would start to get to this point. Here's what I have seen. New family comes in races local for a year maybe 2, and then gets talked into Nationals. "That's where everyone is at". So they do. It usually lasts 4-5 years depending on the kids age, parents credit limit, whatever. They get out because they are burnt out or just plain out of money. Now what does that do to the local tracks???? Its the same idea as support local businesses, keep them around, keep them open, except now your paying Walmart (Nationals) double or triple in price. And now a lot of the local tracks are like hey you guys got Nationals why should we run you whenever you got no place else to go?? Or not many show up because they are saving money for national or training for nationals. Tracks giving up on quads locally is a byproduct of the National machine. From a third party perspective it looks like some master plan to rid the planet of Atv racing by giving us a Utopian (Nationals) society, yet we don't realize the effects of it at home. You are sleeping with the smallpox blankets you fools! Ha ha. Seriously just how I have seen it progress.

If you really want to turn it around, ride local, support local, numbers talk.

I've posted this same thread before. Quads are busy running to participate in Nationals at tracks that don't even support the ATVs outside of taking their money for these big races. An example is Muddy Creek in Tennessee. So local track owners are like you don't race here so why should I add ATVs to the practice schedule. If you want to practice, call Muddy Creek and ask them to let you practice. MX Sports isn't a great for the sport. It is great for them making some money but just about everything they do has a negative impact on the grass roots efforts. The quickest way to bring ATVs back is to end Nationals! We can't run against Nationals in D13 because we have 15 quads that go to Nationals regularly. That represents 30 entries. That takes us from a great turnout of 70 entries down to 40 entries. We don't dare compete. So, ATVs only get 14 races a year instead of the 26-28 that we schedule for bikes. The only district race we have that competes with National is at Budds this weekend...because the National is in Texas and some of those 15 won't go.

Also look at the statistics on the age groups in quad racing and it goes exactly along with what you are saying. There is more quad participation from age 5-16 then it drops off. The adult classes are lucky to have 3 or 4 on the line. Bikes are 50-50 between youth class entries and the adult classes. People get into quad racing then get out of it...at least a the district level. We have bike guys racing that are 60 years old.

[quad2xtreme]

I am back to bigger organized practice events. We have a club renting out track next weekend so it is closed to the public. The club has 450+ members and figures 150 will be showing up. If quads could form a club and all agree on a practice track, they could rent the track for the whole day or weekend and not deal with bikes at all.

In all honesty, they don't run well together. "C/D" quads do well with bikes because they build 2 nice ruts in turns that most bikes guys like actually. It is the A/B quad riders that whip all the loose dirt off the track in the turns until it is back to hard pack. Bikes don't like hard packed turns plain and simple. Neither group gets a "primo" track to their liking if they are mingled. Owners hate the extra time in the dozer to put all the loose dirt back on the track. It isn't just the cost of diesel but the time and hours it puts on the dozer.

We are widening our track and making some alternate lines especially in turns so there is a bike lane and a quad lane to better deal with maximizing the experience for both. We are committed to both but it is a lot of extra work...and I probably wouldn't do it if I weren't an ex-quad racer myself. It's hard watching the side of the sport you love die off and yet my wife and I can't financially afford to fund it beyond the things we've been trying. Meaning those who advise on the "you build it and they will come approach" is long gone. In reality, that is the worst business advice ever. Almost all small businesses fail and simply investing in a dream without knowing the market is destined for bankruptcy 99% of the time. Riders expecting somebody else is going to step up and build a business around quads isn't going to happen. Quads are almost getting to "special event" status where the number are so low it takes forming clubs to continue having any monetary power.

My post isn't about South Fork though...we support ATVs every weekend for practice including this weekend when there is a D13 race for quads and a National going on. I am speaking in general what it would take for ATVs to be mainstream and desired at all local practice tracks. I see more and more tracks in PA supporting quads besides Breezewood. Maybe that is a big part of why quads are still way more popular in PA than NC and VA. Not sure what came first the chicken or the egg but at this point it is what it is. Most tracks don't support quads. The way to opening the door is showing them some guaranteed income numbers. Get some tracks that aren't supporting quads to open up for riding based on organized club turnout. Then it can progress from there.

[honda250xrider]

I remember in 2006-2008 there would be roughly 15 quads at the practice track which was a decent turnout considering they do not hold any races and are not affiliated with any AMA club etc. Now when I go there there is maybe two quads there including myself. I also remember that when I tried to race some local tracks that the quad turnout was terrible and it felt like i was racing myself.

I do agree with the national thing. I did it back in the day and I think the reason most people do it is the perception thing. You get to say "I" race nationally; also its the notion that hey I race against some of the best people and you get to see where you really stack up.

I often think to that Mini dads are predispositioned to want to race national's. They want there kid to be in the spotlight and many still think or dream that they can make it racing. Lets face the facts racing does not pay the bills. Most of the Pro riders are financially well off to begin with either from family or businesses. I don't think many people realize this and think that they are making huge amounts of money.

The real question is how do we get riders to start racing locally? I think there needs to be a change of perception how its marketed or goes about im not sure.

[quad2xtreme]

Ironically, we had 10 quads show up for practice Saturday when there was a District 13 race at Budds Creek. Wish we could get these 10 riders to pay $45 each on a Friday or Monday for a fully groomed and watered track. Or better yet, 20 riders for the same $450. Some tracks rent for $300-350 a day but do zero grooming. We fully face jumps and landings, rip, and drop 10,000+ gallons on the track. Truth is, a Friday rental is just good pre-prep for Saturday and Sunday's practices. Monday rentals is just inheriting an already moist track so it doesn't take much effort either.

We have a private track rental this weekend so I am putting my wife's MX suspension on my Baldwin motor (I sold off my MX suspension years ago when NCMP stopped allowing quads). With her suspension on my motor, pegs, seat, steering stem, and bars, I will be able to bust some laps. It is strange but her quad feels foreign to me. She has a great Walsh steering stem but it isn't +1 and her bars aren't the same bend (and have softer rubbers in the Flexx bars). And she runs great Houser bounce peg setup but the pegs are higher. You combine all this together and I just don't feel right on her quad...in fact, about the worst feeling Honda 450 I've ever ridden. Normally I can jump from one to the next and adapt but hers is just weird...and she won't let me move her bars or levers.

[Ex_Rider43]

Ironically, we had 10 quads show up for practice Saturday when there was a District 13 race at Budds Creek. Wish we could get these 10 riders to pay $45 each on a Friday or Monday for a fully groomed and watered track. Or better yet, 20 riders for the same $450. Some tracks rent for $300-350 a day but do zero grooming. We fully face jumps and landings, rip, and drop 10,000+ gallons on the track. Truth is, a Friday rental is just good pre-prep for Saturday and Sunday's practices. Monday rentals is just inheriting an already moist track so it doesn't take much effort either.

We have a private track rental this weekend so I am putting my wife's MX suspension on my Baldwin motor (I sold off my MX suspension years ago when NCMP stopped allowing quads). With her suspension on my motor, pegs, seat, steering stem, and bars, I will be able to bust some laps. It is strange but her quad feels foreign to me. She has a great Walsh steering stem but it isn't +1 and her bars aren't the same bend (and have softer rubbers in the Flexx bars). And she runs great Houser bounce peg setup but the pegs are higher. You combine all this together and I just don't feel right on her quad...in fact, about the worst feeling Honda 450 I've ever ridden. Normally I can jump from one to the next and adapt but hers is just weird...and she won't let me move her bars or levers.

i agree with you on everything you said earlier. Nice track you have its the 1st time i hear of it i will tell my canadian friends about it so we might stop by your place next time we go down south to practice.

[quad2xtreme]

i agree with you on everything you said earlier. Nice track you have its the 1st time i hear of it i will tell my canadian friends about it so we might stop by your place next time we go down south to practice.

You part of the Canadian crew that stopped at NCMP for like a week and setup a swimming pool?

[jake55]

well now, the age old question comes up again. I'm no expert but I believe it's the tv thing. we are getting some tv exposer now and it has to help right? hopefully.
our pro riders need prime time tv exposer to grow this sport.
walk down your neighborhood street and ask a handful of kids to name a pro bike rider. even if these kids don't ride almost all of them can name 1 or 2 of the riders, weather if be Reed, js7 or who ever. fan or not, they see them on mainstream tv, commercials and so on. then ask the same kid to name a pro quad rider. you will get the same answer out of all of them. uhhhh, I don't know of any.
kids today want a superstar to look up to, imitate and wanna be like when they grow up. if our pro's aren't seen, the kids will never know about them and will pick tiger, LeBron or some other stick and ball superstar to "wanna be like"

I think the Daytona deal is the start to turning this sport the right direction. all day was a steady stream of bikers and spring breakers and so on coming into the speedway, some just stopped for pictures from inside but many stopped to watch. I personally spoke to many bikers that stopped, most seemed empressed with what they were seeing.
I even ran into a group from my hometown, they were their for bike week and stopped by, as tourist, not as fans. well, now they are fans and are planning a large group for high point, Indiana and red bud to come and watch. small step, yes, but that's just one group that I personally know, how many others will be doing the same? time will tell.