Camber

[Stickman400]

Hey guys, I just got done converting my '06 front end to the '04-'05 style and noticed that my camber was pretty negative compare to what it was before I swapped everything over. I measured and found out it was a little over 5°. I turned the bottom heim in once and got it to a little under 5°, probably 4.5 or so, is this close enough or should I take the upper out a turn and get it to 4 exactly? I know 4 is usually what is recommended but will a little more hurt? I also have to adjust the toe quite a bit, is that normal with the '04-'05 spindles? I figure it is since it was perfect before hand. And is there any other little things I should know about doing this swap? Here's some pics, I PC'd the new ones black with red hubs to go along with my color scheme I got going already, I eventually plan on PC'ing the calipers red and getting Walsh MX arms with black lowers and red uppers so it should look pretty good in the end. I'm also debating getting red rings for the Hipers.

http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/20140419_192931_zpssgyqf35y.jpg (http://s683.photobucket.com/user/Stickman400/media/Quad%20Pics/20140419_192931_zpssgyqf35y.jpg.html)
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/20140419_192914_zpsbfpxotqa.jpg (http://s683.photobucket.com/user/Stickman400/media/Quad%20Pics/20140419_192914_zpsbfpxotqa.jpg.html)
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/20140419_192840_zpsdv108hih.jpg (http://s683.photobucket.com/user/Stickman400/media/Quad%20Pics/20140419_192840_zpsdv108hih.jpg.html)
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/20140419_192903_zpstqjm55gp.jpg (http://s683.photobucket.com/user/Stickman400/media/Quad%20Pics/20140419_192903_zpstqjm55gp.jpg.html)
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/20140419_192852_zpsz37tljrm.jpg (http://s683.photobucket.com/user/Stickman400/media/Quad%20Pics/20140419_192852_zpsz37tljrm.jpg.html)
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/20140419_193419_zpsbrj7yjbu.jpg (http://s683.photobucket.com/user/Stickman400/media/Quad%20Pics/20140419_193419_zpsbrj7yjbu.jpg.html)
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/20140419_193426_zpsfbfbblt7.jpg (http://s683.photobucket.com/user/Stickman400/media/Quad%20Pics/20140419_193426_zpsfbfbblt7.jpg.html)
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/20140419_193408_zpsvvvcdd4k.jpg (http://s683.photobucket.com/user/Stickman400/media/Quad%20Pics/20140419_193408_zpsvvvcdd4k.jpg.html)
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv192/Stickman400/Quad%20Pics/20140419_193438_zpsio4dykdq.jpg (http://s683.photobucket.com/user/Stickman400/media/Quad%20Pics/20140419_193438_zpsio4dykdq.jpg.html)

[CJM]

Did you just swap spindles or did you get arms, tie rods and so forth? If you just put the spindles on that wont work right really. You need the entire frontend in most cases. Id put the camber to 4 degrees, I run about 3 degrees myself overall and like it alot actually.

[Stickman400]

Just swapped the spindles and hubs. Those arms are +2 Janssen Motorsports, but I have no idea if they are for the '04-'05 450 spindles on an '06 or just the '06+, they may be for either from what the rest of this quad was put together like. The tie-rods I'm assuming came with the arms. I put it at 4 degrees, I think, my angle finder isn't the most precise, I think one side may be 3 and the other is 4. I need to get a digital one. And when I adjusted the toe somehow they keep moving on me and I got one side to an 1/8" in and the other 1/4", I tried 3 times and somehow it kept moving even though I was holding everything from moving when tightening it up.

[CJM]

Roughly 3 degrees would be 1" and 4 degrees would be about 1.25". Put a framing square on the ground, measure up to about 18-19" and use a tape or ruler to go across from the sidewall to make a right angle. Check the link, about 2-3 pages in it has the chart and the directions.

http://www.houser-racing.com/upload/documents/Install_Guides/House_Racing_Honda_400EX_Regular_Travel_A-Arm_Install_Guide.pdf

No idea why the toe keeps changing, but if you change toe you must change/check the camber again. If your running out of adjustment with the heims you could always switch to frap ball joints (check ebay) and reverse the locknuts if need be. Looks like those arms can take the frap BJs from the pic.

[Stickman400]

I was trying to use those Houser instructions that I have left over from when I installed my 400 arms, but it's hard to read the tape in fine increments like they state in those instructions. I just used a magnetic angle finder/plumb level to see if it was close. I'll have to mess with it again this weekend, I bought a 24" Craftsman digital level that has a built in angle finder so that should make it really easy. And my tie rods are rusted on the ends so I'm thinking it was spinning the heim joint when I tighten them down, so I'll just soak them in some WD-40 next time and see if that helps. And one of the main reasons I did this swap was because of this thread: http://www.atvriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?417166-04-05-spindles-are-they-better&s= Most of the guys in there said you only needed the spindles, hubs and camber adjustable a-arms.

[Stickman400]

I just checked it with that level and the right was 85 and the left was 85.5, so I need to adjust it again anyway. I'll be sure to set the toe perfect first.

[CJM]

The arms in most cases are different, so its kinda tough to adjust them in many cases. Im not sure which way it was, but the 04-05 and 06+ upper arms are the difference (possibly 04-05 are longer), ones longer than the other. IE I wound up with arms for an 06+ (seller and I think) at one point b/c the upper arms were to short. I had an inch of negative camber and the dang ball joint threads barely engaged the nuts. But some arms are made for both like my JD arms.

As for the chart, I just rounded up, but 18" up on the square for 4 degrees is 1.25" so its not that bad in most cases.

[Stickman400]

Well I went out and tried to adjust it again today and didn't get very far. I've loosened and tightened the jam nuts on the tie rods so much that the inside jam nut is rounded off and you can't even get a wrench on it now. And left hand threaded 12mm 1.25 pitch jam nuts seem to be very hard to come by, so I think I'm just going to buy a set of heim joint tie rod ends and new tie rods. Sounds kinda stupid but I was planning on getting some eventually so I'll just get them now and be done with it. They'll also help the steering some, and the steering is already insanely light so it'll feel like it's got a steering stabilizer with those.

EDIT: HOLY HELL they are expensive. May have to try and find some nuts instead.

[CJM]

I went with oem TRE for that very reason. I tried some tusk ones and wtf they were crap compared to oem.

[Stickman400]

Well I don't know why, but Walsh has insanely high prices, lol. Guess that would sound funny to any other person since that is very obvious when browsing their site. But they sell American Star tie rods for $225, which is insane. But American Star sells them on their own site for $170 for the top of the line XS tie rods with a lifetime warranty against bending and breaking and with fully sealed, self lubricated heim joint ends. So why in the world would you pay $55 more when you could get them that much cheaper?? So I may get them now since I found them cheaper, guess I should start looking other places before going straight to Walsh. Here's a couple links to the sites.

American Star: http://www.amstarmanufacturing.com/ProXSTieRods.html
Walsh: http://walshracecraft.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.details&ProductID=87446

[CJM]

Why are you so interested in using heims for the TRE? Id much rather a sealed ball joint.

As for walsh: yep insane pricing.

[Stickman400]

This bikes only going to see a race track or some occasional sand, so I don't really need a sealed ball joint. The only time it's going to see mud or water is if the track I'm riding is wet, or if it's raining, and more than likely I won't be riding if it is that kind of conditions. So since I don't need a sealed ball joint I might as well go with the heims which are easier too turn and last just as long, especially where and when I'll be using them.

[CJM]

Gotcha. Perhaps contacting american star directly is what you should try?

[Stickman400]

Well I got lucky and the stock jam nuts were the same size as what I had. I got it all back together and set earlier today. Couldn't get the camber perfect, just as close to 4 without going over as I could since you can't fine tune it with the way the heims are. One sides exactly 4 and the other is 3.3, but if I took it another turn out it would have been over 4, so I left it. Didn't get it out to ride it but there is going to be races here later this month so I'll find out how good it handles then. Thanks for the help Marc, since you seem to be the only one on here anymore....:uhoh:

[CJM]

Your welcome for the help bud. Sorry you cant get it dialed in right. Perhaps the heims are worn out? I mostly moved to the 450r org site these days. Sadly anyone worthwhile doesnt post much here if it all anymore.