440 vs 416

[mopar 400]

Ok heres the deal I'm running macums 416 ss 10.8.1 compression, and I have a sparks X6 exhaust with an FCR 39 carb. She runs pretty damn hard, but I was wondering how much jumping up to a 440 with 12.0:1 compression ratio will help me? I know the gas will be more expensive, but that is not a problem. Anyone jumped from the 416 to a 440 please tell me some info on it. Was it worth it? or should I go and do a full 465? Thanks for any help.

[Steve-o 400EX]

The 440 produces great bottom end, but does not rev as quick as a 416. Unless u want to spend some big bucks to do the 440 right, I would stick with what ya got now. Although you could keep your 416 and stroke it to a 440. From what I hear, if ur gunna do a 440, thats the way to go.

[frogburner]

Stay with your 416 definetly... The 440 is not as reliable as the 416 and does not rev as quick... If you want to spend some wise money I would suggest this...

Stay with your 416,, but go to a little bit Higher comp. piston..

Go with Some sort of cam?? I have a HOTCAM Stage 1 and it gave me LOTS of LOWEND... I have heard though that Stage 2 puts out strong the whole powerband...

Bore the Valves.... Lots of people will probably diagree with me,, but Remember the 4-stroke theory... MO' Air--MO' Power...

But If you do decide to go higher cc's go to the 426,,,


Do you root around in the woods alot??? If So your 440 will get very HOT...

[Steve-o 400EX]

This is true, i'd say put some more cash into ur 416 if anything. Dont get the 426, there is hardly an increase in power over the 416. There is plenty more u can to to the 416 to make it quicker.

[lex luger]

ofcourse it won't rev as high, high compression motors don't, depeneds how you ride, iam guess you dont MX at all, because your considering a 440-465....thats ALOT of heat for oil cooled motor on the MX track...

[Chef]

If you get a 440, done right, it will rev just as fast as a 416. Mine makes power quicker, and farther into the RPM range, than any other 400 motor I have ever come across, be it a 400-490. The last 416 I rode felt sluggish. You do a 440 the right way and you can tell all your 416 buddies to go home.

[JustRace]

Here is what mickey dunlop had to say about the 416 vs. 440

"I have read on the forums here how everyone thinks a 416 is faster and revs quicker than a 440 kit with the same compression. I think most people are not running as high a compression ratio with the 440 kits as they think they are and when you put a cam with it, you end up with lower cylinder pressure making the machine rev slower than the higher compression 416 motor. Just my thoughts anyway. Without talking to each individual, it's hard to figure out why people think the 416 is faster than the 440. Any time you put a longer duration cam in, you have less time to build cylinder pressure. This is why it's important to put a higher compression piston in when you install a longer duration cam. You can get more torque the higher you go on the compression ration and your cam will give you the mid-range to top-end without losing low-end."

[mopar 400]

Well I have read what you guys think and I do have a bit of $ into the 416. I have a Hot Cam stage 2 and it seems that this cam made a big difference, but does a 440 seem to pull harder then the 416. I have run against a few 440 kits and they dont pul away from me, but I dont think they were done right. If i was to do it the right way, Heavy duty time chain, hardened rockers, 12:1 compression, port and polish, and the other little things that may "pop up", will it be worht the $? Or will I be still looking for more. I do a lot of Dune riding, and a bit of trails, so it is not purely a drag bike, but I want to be able to hang with the fast dales and Shee's.

[mopar 400]

Rico or Jeff whats your thoughts?..........:confused2

[Steve-o 400EX]

Originally posted by lex luger
ofcourse it won't rev as high, high compression motors don't, depeneds how you ride, iam guess you dont MX at all, because your considering a 440-465....thats ALOTTA head for oil cooled motor on the MX track...

Not rev as high, rev as quick which means build rpms faster.:rolleyes:

[Steven]

My 440 builds revs much faster than does my 400EX with a slip-on and jet kit.

Why??? 11.5:1 compression versus 9.1:1 compression.

Ross builds a very light 89mm piston. This business about a 416 reving faster than a 440 is irrelavant. Its all about compression and cam. Both motors being built equal, the 440 is going to make more power.

If done right, it won't overheat. But you can't sit idle with 11.5:1 compression and an 89mm piston... thats asking for trouble.

[Chef]

Originally posted by Steve-o 400EX
Not rev as high, rev as quick which means build rpms faster.:rolleyes:

Yea...lol

Even so, it should rev just as high. Mine peaks out at about 9400...then hits the limiter at 10,200. Granted, its not your regular 440...l:blah

[Ketch]

Gary, I was riding with you last week end I have a plan for this we talked about it last week end a little. The main thing is to replace the rod that's the weak link. So if you have the cases
split to change the rod get the crank done with al the goodys
and then the sky is the limt. I'm also going to work on Brake line clamps this week end.:)

I hear the 416 is much quicker :rolleyes:

The 465 must be even slower :rolleyes:

glad I had my boots on for this one :D


No replacement for displacement and yes hp to weight ratio numbers matter also but BS and bling dont do a thing for speed and acceleration.

If the motor is done "CORRECTLY" the larger CC's will make the diff. if either of them is done 1/2 arse then who knows.

Do it right either way you choose and you will be happy.

[twisted threads]

Originally posted by Chef
If you get a 440, done right, it will rev just as fast as a 416. Mine makes power quicker, and farther into the RPM range, than any other 400 motor I have ever come across, be it a 400-490. The last 416 I rode felt sluggish. You do a 440 the right way and you can tell all your 416 buddies to go home.
Thats right you build the 440 right and you will love it. I have raced many 416's they are fast but not fast enough.;)

[Steve-o 400EX]

Originally posted by 440EX4me
I hear the 416 is much quicker :rolleyes:

The 465 must be even slower :rolleyes:

glad I had my boots on for this one :D


No replacement for displacement and yes hp to weight ratio numbers matter also but BS and bling dont do a thing for speed and acceleration.

If the motor is done "CORRECTLY" the larger CC's will make the diff. if either of them is done 1/2 arse then who knows.

Do it right either way you choose and you will be happy.

Yea this is true. If the 440 is done right it will rev quicker and be much faster. I just think that people got that assumption because many people dont put the big bucks into their 440's like you or chef. Thats why i recommend 416's unless they want to spend a good amount a cash.

[NTPRacing#19]

this is a good thread! im deciding on a 416 or 440 this summer for MX.

[GrounD PoundeR]

I have to disagree with the 416 train of thought. If your saying a 416 will keep up with a 440, then you have seens Chads 505 or known as a 440 stroked 6mm. He was putting everyone to shame down here and I'm talking about raptors and a boy who had his 650 on alcohol. Granted TC built his engine, but still you talk to an engine builder to be for sure. If you put to bike side by side that everything was the same except the engine bore the 440 should win. Granted there is user head space involved with that.

By the way if you think your 416 is that bad PM Chad maybe he'll drag you for pinks.:D

[Steve-o 400EX]

Originally posted by GrounD PoundeR
I have to disagree with the 416 train of thought. If your saying a 416 will keep up with a 440, then you have seens Chads 505 or known as a 440 stroked 6mm. He was putting everyone to shame down here and I'm talking about raptors and a boy who had his 650 on alcohol. Granted TC built his engine, but still you talk to an engine builder to be for sure. If you put to bike side by side that everything was the same except the engine bore the 440 should win. Granted there is user head space involved with that.

By the way if you think your 416 is that bad PM Chad maybe he'll drag you for pinks.:D

:huh WTF?? We are not saying 416 is as fast as a 440 dude. It is if the 440 is not built correctly, but we are talking about how a 416 is better than a half assed 440. A well done 440 will smoke a 416, but if you dont do it right then a 416 will come out on top.

[NTPRacing#19]

something smells worse then my nuts do

[Steve-o 400EX]

Originally posted by NTPRacing#19
something smells worse then my nuts do

What would that be??:confused:

[Chef]

Originally posted by GrounD PoundeR
I have to disagree with the 416 train of thought. If your saying a 416 will keep up with a 440, then you have seens Chads 505 or known as a 440 stroked 6mm. He was putting everyone to shame down here and I'm talking about raptors and a boy who had his 650 on alcohol. Granted TC built his engine, but still you talk to an engine builder to be for sure. If you put to bike side by side that everything was the same except the engine bore the 440 should win. Granted there is user head space involved with that.

By the way if you think your 416 is that bad PM Chad maybe he'll drag you for pinks.:D

Just so you know your facts son, its a 465 stroked 6mm to get a 505. That is 92mm piston, not 89. An 89mm stroked 6mm is a 472 ;)

[Steven]

Again, i think it comes down to compression and cam when comparing a 416 to a 440 and how quick they rev up.

When my other 400ex wears out, I think I'll make it a 416 with a hotcam stage1. With about 10.5:1 that would be a nice bike.

[GrounD PoundeR]

Like I said before if built the same. If your not going to build the egine to handle the mods well.... cut one to many corners you end up with a circle.

I agree if a 416 is built better, and has other mods done to the engine than a 440 the 416 will haul.. The question that should be asked is what mods he is planning on doing to the engine beside a big bore kit. I just purchased a 425 true 10.8:1 kit for around $140. and a TC cam for around another $140. or so. I plan on getting a port and polish done $150. - $600. pending on who you go to. Then you have to figure getting the engine bored so there is another $60 & gaskets. So all together I'm spending roughly around $600.00. Thats a pretty sweet deal and not needing to replace a bunch a factory parts is a bonus. If I'm not happy with the power I can still stroke it or put a higher compression piston in or change it to alc instead of gas.

Now if you got the cash lets talk nos injection. How many Bens do you got to throw down or for me what will the wife let me spend. Then you got the kids...Oh boy I'll be needing a second job.:eek:

[Castor-426ex]

just do a 426:D :D

[JD400exrider]

(Quote from ground pounder)

Like I said before if built the same. If your not going to build the egine to handle the mods well.... cut one to many corners you end up with a circle.

I agree if a 416 is built better, and has other mods done to the engine than a 440 the 416 will haul.. The question that should be asked is what mods he is planning on doing to the engine beside a big bore kit. I just purchased a 425 true 10.8:1 kit for around $140. and a TC cam for around another $140. or so. I plan on getting a port and polish done $150. - $600. pending on who you go to. Then you have to figure getting the engine bored so there is another $60 & gaskets. So all together I'm spending roughly around $600.00. Thats a pretty sweet deal and not needing to replace a bunch a factory parts is a bonus. If I'm not happy with the power I can still stroke it or put a higher compression piston in or change it to alc instead of gas.

Now if you got the cash lets talk nos injection. How many Bens do you got to throw down or for me what will the wife let me spend. Then you got the kids...Oh boy I'll be needing a second job.

You could not have said it better ground pounder :eek2:

[Steve-o 400EX]

Originally posted by GrounD PoundeR
Like I said before if built the same. If your not going to build the egine to handle the mods well.... cut one to many corners you end up with a circle.

I agree if a 416 is built better, and has other mods done to the engine than a 440 the 416 will haul.. The question that should be asked is what mods he is planning on doing to the engine beside a big bore kit. I just purchased a 425 true 10.8:1 kit for around $140. and a TC cam for around another $140. or so. I plan on getting a port and polish done $150. - $600. pending on who you go to. Then you have to figure getting the engine bored so there is another $60 & gaskets. So all together I'm spending roughly around $600.00. Thats a pretty sweet deal and not needing to replace a bunch a factory parts is a bonus. If I'm not happy with the power I can still stroke it or put a higher compression piston in or change it to alc instead of gas.

Now if you got the cash lets talk nos injection. How many Bens do you got to throw down or for me what will the wife let me spend. Then you got the kids...Oh boy I'll be needing a second job.:eek:

Yea thats pretty much what I was tryin to get at.

[raptor_02]

there is no doubt a 440 is faster than a 416. But the important fact is it takes about 1500 to build a good 440 and about 500 to build a good 416. It really comes down to how much power you need and how much money you got. Down at Macon in my qualifier I had a MOTO440 on my left and a fully YZF built quad on my right. So how the heck do I expect to pull the holeshot against something like that. But if I weren't riding like a big girl I would have made the main :grr Anyways if your a competitive racer that runs B or A class I'd say you have to have a 440. Don't think a 416 could run with the Dales, YZF, or CRF quads. But if you don't race go with a 416. Less money and if you ever blow it up you can always get it bored again. That's just my opinion. Or if your a slow C class racer like my self a 416 would be good :D

[GrounD PoundeR]

Thats why I said how much cash does he have to work with. I'm doing my engine right now and it will cost around 600. when its all said and done, but if I went with a sparks cam it could cost me close to 1000. according to his recommendations that need to be done to the engine.

Most 440 kits are not true they can range from a 435 to 440 and then you have the compression not being what they say they are also. So I was told to go with a 425 10.8:1 for how I wanted it set up for XC. Tom told me that was the engine to go with and compression. Who am I to argue with that logic. I wanted a 440 kit running about 12:1 compression and he was totally against it. I could have paid him more money for the 440 kit, but instead he told me would be for my better. How many people will tell you not to buy the more expensive item and go with this one that is a little cheaper. Not bad at all if you ask me, but order your stuff in advance.

[BigThumper33]

If you don't think your going to do good Raptor_02, then your not. Who cares what everyone else is running, just because they have more ponies doesn't mean they know how to use them. My last race of the season was in open b class. I got 4th and was the only one in the whole class with stock suspension, and I don't consider myself "extremely good" or anything. Its just being able to use what you have, and a lot of people spend more money on their quad when they should be spending it on race fees to actually get some practice. I'm going with a 416 for this upcoming season, I doubt worry about anything.

[RED121572]

I have a few things on my mind. First of all, this thread is FULL of good info. Thanks for everyone taking there time to share your knowledge.

I am very new to this "440" bit. Im currently building one.

Heres a beef.....a true 440 uses a 89.5mm piston right? If thats true, then why is it advertised that an 89mm piston is a 440?? An 89mm piston would be a 435, right?:confused:

I bought a wiseco 440 kit and the piston is an 89mm. Which would make it a 435??

Now, with the kit, I recieved a 12.5.1 piston. The cam that I currently have and plan on keeping is an WB's All around cam.
Im looking to get strong bottom end as well as improved top end. Would it benefit me greatly to shell out another 130 for a hotcam stage 2?

Any input is welcome.

[raptor_02]

Originally posted by BigThumper33
If you don't think your going to do good Raptor_02, then your not. Who cares what everyone else is running, just because they have more ponies doesn't mean they know how to use them. My last race of the season was in open b class. I got 4th and was the only one in the whole class with stock suspension, and I don't consider myself "extremely good" or anything. Its just being able to use what you have, and a lot of people spend more money on their quad when they should be spending it on race fees to actually get some practice. I'm going with a 416 for this upcoming season, I doubt worry about anything. i had alot of badluck that weekend too. But i'm running the Nationals at London so hopefully I will place well there!

[GrounD PoundeR]

If your going to fork out some cash for a new cam why not get a TC cam? Several people on Exriders have had trouble with the hotcam stage 2. TC cam price should be about the same.

That only my opion though.

Big Thumper is right. I went a ATV park in Texas and my quad beat several quads that I wouldn't think it would stand up against and that list includes a raptor 660. Almost had a tear come out after that.:D

[RED121572]

TC cam? Can I use it with stock rockers? Which TC cam would you reccommend for me?

[Chef]

Originally posted by raptor_02
there is no doubt a 440 is faster than a 416. But the important fact is it takes about 1500 to build a good 440 and about 500 to build a good 416.

Where do you find the 1000 difference? If they are both built "good", as in the same, there should only be about 100 bucks difference, boring vs sleeving.

[GrounD PoundeR]

Yes you can use your stock rockers. Your best bet is to call TC up and tell him what you want your bike for. He has two types of cams XC & MX. I have the XC for cross country. At that high of compression you might want to think about upgrading your internal parts not because of the cam. TC talked me out of a 440 kit so I'll see when its all done how it stacks up to a 440 that a couple of people I know have.

[honda250xrider]

hmm it only cost you guys 500 bucks to do a 416 right?, i have spent a 2,000$ into my motor, that includes hardend rockers, aftermarket cam chain, bore, sleeve, stroke, piston, vavles, clutch, and a few other little things.

[Steve-o 400EX]

Originally posted by honda250xrider
hmm it only cost you guys 500 bucks to do a 416 right?, i have spent a 2,000$ into my motor, that includes hardend rockers, aftermarket cam chain, bore, sleeve, stroke, piston, vavles, clutch, and a few other little things.

Yea but to do a 416 right ya dont need valves, rockers( if ya get a hotcam or xr cam), cam chain, sleeve or stroke. Thats what cost ya so much. But i woulda done the same thing if I was buildin up a 250x.;)

[Steve-o 400EX]

Originally posted by Chef
Where do you find the 1000 difference? If they are both built "good", as in the same, there should only be about 100 bucks difference, boring vs sleeving.

Not really. With the 440 you have to add in all the extra's like carb, I would do springs, guides and valves, clutch, cam chain, port and polish and personally i would get a piston other than wiseco, most likely a JE or Ross. So it may be a little more than $1000. There is a lot they need to get the max performance and reliability out of a 440.

[Chef]

You have to have a carb on a well built 416 to get the best performance out of it. Either way, thats only 400 bucks difference, 550 at the most.

[NTPRacing#19]

yea it would be worth while to carb on the quad if it gets bored. it would make it perform to its full potential

[mopar 400]

All right I was thinking all about what you guysare saying and I want to hear your feeling on strokin the 416 instead of going with a bigger bore. I was thinking this may keep the reliability a little better and if it does ever blow I can go and bore then. I talked to my engine builder and he told me to go 440 all the way. I like the fast revs of the 416, and I think if I stroke it to a 440 it might run better than just boring with a 98.5mm piston. I also like the fact that since I already have the 416 kit installed, and it hasn't even been a year yet, if I stroke it, it will not cost as much as a full kit. What do yuo guys think about this?

[Mr_Bub400ex]

i want to do the same thing...

[Steve-o 400EX]

Originally posted by mopar 400
All right I was thinking all about what you guysare saying and I want to hear your feeling on strokin the 416 instead of going with a bigger bore. I was thinking this may keep the reliability a little better and if it does ever blow I can go and bore then. I talked to my engine builder and he told me to go 440 all the way. I like the fast revs of the 416, and I think if I stroke it to a 440 it might run better than just boring with a 98.5mm piston. I also like the fact that since I already have the 416 kit installed, and it hasn't even been a year yet, if I stroke it, it will not cost as much as a full kit. What do yuo guys think about this?

From what I've read, the stroking idea is the way to go. It will keep it more reliable, just might be a little more expensive.

[BigThumper33]

Would'nt a stroked 416 to a 440 rev even slower than a bored 440 because of the longer rod? I always thought the longer the rod, the more torque the engine produced, and the shorter the rod the faster it will rev.

So wouldn't the stroked 440 be even more of a bottem end slinging beast than a basic 440 which is already known for good bottom end?

[Castor-426ex]

the cost is going to be more significant with a stroker due to the complete gasket kit, splitting cases, parts, and anything out of spec you find in your engine...while you have it apart you might as well check everything according to the manual for excessive wear....however...me running a 426 and on my final bore to the stock liner...i will stroke the crank if there is a next go around...even if i have to go with an aftermarket sleeve

[raptor_02]

Originally posted by Chef
Where do you find the 1000 difference? If they are both built "good", as in the same, there should only be about 100 bucks difference, boring vs sleeving. the reason I say their is about a 1000 dollar difference is because if you build a 440 and want it to last you have to have the best of everything.
440
piston=190
cam=375
resleeve=100
heavy duty connecting rod=275
hinson clutch kit=500
gaskets=40
heavy duty cam chain=100
+ the additional cost of racing gas

416
piston=180
cam=375
heavy duty cam chain=100
gaskets=40

These are both of the engine setups that I had in mind if I went with a 416 or 440. The cam is the Agressive Drop In Cam from sparks which won't work with Hard Faced Rockers or Heavy duty Valve springs. A 416 doesn't really need the extra clutch work or the heavy duty connecting rod. Sparks reccomends all 440's get the heavy duty rod so i'd say it would be a smart purchase. So if you add it up it is really probaly around 800 more to do a good 440. Is it worth the money??? I don't know, haven't rode either. You can acctually do a 416 for under 500 bucks but if i do one i will be getting the aggressive cam which is 200 bucks more than the original. If you get a 440 i reccomend running racing gas. I was about to get a 440 on pump gas and a guy from sparks talked me out of it cause he said a 440 on pump gas runs very hot. So it's basically how much money you have and how much you need more power.

[BigThumper33]

not to mention heat issues you may come across with the 440s...

[jaspurx]

once you go over 440 ( 465 ) the question is why not go all the way ( 500 )? four stroke tech has them in stock , and knows all the ins and outs of the mill !! the quick revving 416 would be my choice , but with some other mods of course!!!

[JD400exrider]

I would have to aggree the 440 is going to be 800-1000 more than a 416 if done to last and handel the extra power. Installing a rod would be a no brainer in my opinion. (Just saw my friends rod come right out his cases on his built 440) Raptop -02 Ask X rider on how his cam ran on stock springs.
I almost bought that cam and sparks told me I did'nt need heavy duty valve springs, however would be wise if you are going to race.
My feeling is when building a 416 or 440 with a more aggressive cam that rev's higher should have better springs to prevent floating a valve. The stock springs may work but installing a better spring that will handel the heat better and a slightly more heavy. To heavy of spring lickley will rob power.
As for the bigger carb. That would be in order for either 416 or 440

[Stock 400 rider]

Anyone knows wich gas shouls I run in a stock 400?And in a 416?440?

One more thing, What do you guys mean by ROCKERS?
I'm not from US or even Canada, I might know what it is, just not familiar with the name or expression
Thanks

[YZROOSTINYA]

I would suggest getting some porting and switching to a xr head gasket on your motor.

This is directed to whomever started this thread. I felt a large diff with just those mods alone and you have a carb also. I KNOW if I had a fcr 39 my quad would be way more powerful.


this is what my kit cost

piston and gaskets = 175
cam = 145
boring = 50
porting = 175
exhaust = 450

the only thing i see next would be to go to a fcr carb

I am very happy with where I am at right now.

if I was building a 440 I would just add larger valves, go with a full race port, definitly a fcr39 , springs and maybe going to a HD rod or possibly doing a 416 stroked since i would most likely split the cases anyway.

I already see the need for a HD clutch kit on my 416 as it is.

if I was building a 440 I would just add larger valves, go with a full race port, definitly a fcr39 , springs and maybe going to a HD rod or possibly doing a 416 stroked since i would most likely split the cases anyway.

I figure I will run into you sometime this year at Tower so maybe (if you can convience me you wont wreck it LOL) you will have a chance to see how well one can run without the lg valves, FCR (but I do intend on having one later this year so hurry up ) HD rod or $500 builder porting.

I know some of these other things will help but the major part of the battle is over and I only expect small gains from here out, well at least till the stroker idea wins me over. :)

[ChadEXer]

Originally posted by Chef
Just so you know your facts son, its a 465 stroked 6mm to get a 505. That is 92mm piston, not 89. An 89mm stroked 6mm is a 472 ;)
Chef, easy on him there! It was my fault because I told him it was a 440 stroked 6mm. He!! I cant remeber what it is. I do know its a 505!! Do you know the link to that displacement calculator?? I do remember Tom telling me when he built my motor that he stroked them further than most other engine builders. Not for sure.
I think this 440 vs 416 stuff is entertaining!!

[YZROOSTINYA]

440-

sounds good, don't worry, I can handle it!

if I can handle 130mph wheelies on my streetbike and 60mph endo's I think I can tame your quad, hahahaa

I won't wreck it and we switch to see what you think of mine.:D

u going up this weekend?

OK guys this is gonna be long (really long) and hopefully thorough as well. I have discussed many of these ideas with some of you b4 and in countless threads here as well. I have found much of this info the hard way and hope to be able to help some of you before you have to go thru the stress and BS that I was forced to.

I suggest anyone who is looking to mod there engine internally read this and the following posts thoroughly since it should be both informative and potentially one of the last times I get into this amount of detail due to outside time restraints (I need to earn a living too you know J )

There are a lot of misconceptions on this motor, and almost as much confusion as what you really want from your motor anyways. I guess since we cant be straight with ourselves how can we expect the people with the knowledge to be so with us.

A lot of the comments I have seen (not just this thread either) are based on second hand info, here say and recommendations of engine builders, and this just adds to the confusion. Not that all the builders are bad or any for that matter, and I do think most have honest intents to make us happy etc. But this confusion can get frustrating and very expensive.

I am relying mostly on my personal experience and results of my questioning and investigation into a lot of the myths about this motor and how it responds to mods etc. to put together a (hopefully) complete answer to address many of the questions on the mods and over bores for the EX engine. As most of you know I am not a professional engine builder but just a off road enthusiast that enjoys tweaking internal combustion engines almost as much as riding quads. I have found most of my experience on this motor from necessity since I was blessed with purchasing a used 01 400ex with a IMS 440 kit in it that was producing under 100psi on a mechanical compression test (but oddly had little to no cyl wear or obvious problems) and since that time helping countless riders mod, update or correct there engine problems etc.

For the record I have not done some of the higher end mods to date as I am considering a 465 or 505 stroker motor (guess what this is as hard to get info on as why the majority of 440’s ran like crap) and see no sense what so ever to change a perfectly good conn rod or drop 450+ plus on a carb till I prove to myself I had pinched every bit of power from the current one and the engine was wanting more (as of this time I have decided on the FCR39 as the stocker truly isn’t flowing enough or this engine even with the smaller cam profile) cause I hate to waste $$$ on a fad or just what everybody else is doing etc.

A lot of my time was put into finding the “best value” rather than just purchasing a pile of overly expensive parts and finding a way to make them work together. It had boggled my mind why a larger bore engine (88.5 J&E/ims kit) wasn’t all that much faster if any faster than a stk machine with basic intake and exh mods almost as much as why the he!! a Roll design/ Axis suspension set up was over 3K. What I am getting at is there are better ways to mod your motor than sending it off with 2600.00 to your favorite builder if you just don’t have or are not willing to spend that kind of money. Sure there are gonna be differences and it may not perform exactly as well but that can be changed with some more $$$$ laterJ





[quote]0Thats right you build the 440 right and you will love it. I have raced many 416's they are fast but not fast enough. [quote]
That’s pretty much correct and to the point, but it’s the who what and why that needs to be addressed so all the confusion will be cleared up. Remember a properly done up 406 416 or 426 etc will be a major advantage over stk but the 440 will be just the same over the others as well as the 505 above the 440 etc.


[quote] WTF?? We are not saying 416 is as fast as a 440 dude. It is if the 440 is not built correctly, but we are talking about how a 416 is better than a half assed 440. A well done 440 will smoke a 416, but if you dont do it right then a 416 will come out on top. [quote]
Well its about time the popular opinion here has changed because not too long ago a lot of members thought just the opposite. I will still question the average 416 out performing a low comp 440 in many instances but the potential is deff there for that to happen and it has.

[quote] Again, i think it comes down to compression and cam when comparing a 416 to a 440 and how quick they rev up.[quote]
That’s true for any engine. But there is a lot more to it than just those two componets when you are talking about a quick revving engine. Things like piston weight and skirt length, stroke and rod length and head/valve design will also play a big part.

[quote] Most 440 kits are not true they can range from a 435 to 440 and then you have the compression not being what they say they are also. So I was told to go with a 425 10.8:1 for how I wanted it set up for XC. Tom told me that was the engine to go with and compression. Who am I to argue with that logic. I wanted a 440 kit running about 12:1 compression and he was totally against it. I could have paid him more money for the 440 kit, but instead he told me would be for my better. How many people will tell you not to buy the more expensive item and go with this one that is a little cheaper. Not bad at all if you ask me, but order your stuff in advance[quote]
I am confused by the motives of some of the engine builders because some of there beliefs make perfectly good sense and others seem to be driven by other forces. I don’t know if its just a striving for being different to set themselves apart or the ability of so many high performance aftermarket parts to drive up the final price and profit. I am sure that most builders are truly trying to produce the best product they can for a price that will allow them to remain profitable etc.

When you throw in the 425/426 in to the mix things get even more interesting since most people will show concern for the sleeve thickness in this set up while another seems to push it. I personally would only think of the 425/426 bore as an overbore etc for your 416 in the future because to me the potential risk of heat related problems in this air cooled engine from running the thinner walled sleeve seem to make the slightly more expensive 440 sleeve mod very attractive.

I question why TC would advise against the 440 12:1 but then I question almost as many of his thoughts as I praise. I have heard comments on the stock rod in this configuration but that shouldn’t be addressed in the manner you said either.

The fact that I am currently running a very similar set up to what you were steered away from and it runs like a bear only makes me question things more. Maybe I (as well as many others since this is a very popular set up) are missing something. I have thought about the potential for the stk rod to have problems etc but am figuring if it does then its time to stroke it since the cases will be split etc.

[quote] Heres a beef.....a true 440 uses a 89.5mm piston right? If thats true, then why is it advertised that an 89mm piston is a 440?? An 89mm piston would be a 435, right?

I bought a wiseco 440 kit and the piston is an 89mm. Which would make it a 435??

Now, with the kit, I recieved a 12.5.1 piston. The cam that I currently have and plan on keeping is an WB's All around cam.
Im looking to get strong bottom end as well as improved top end. Would it benefit me greatly to shell out another 130 for a hotcam stage 2? [quote]

You have to love the way the aftermarket guys make their advertising so easy for us to understand etc. They have marketed (mostly wiseco and IMS) 440 kits in most every size but a true 440. I know most have a 440cc kit avail but not all and with the way the big mail order guys like WB are locking everything up in our sport you will have trouble just getting pistons for the 440 period. Try to see what you can get from J&E on a 440, it’s a joke believe me.

The original kit in my machine had the 88.5mm J&E piston and with the current Ross 89.5 it’s a true 440. I am sure that set up correctly any of the so called 440’s would produce plenty of power etc.

The cam you have should be fine for exactly what its called all around use. I doubt it will be the best MX or XC cam but should do ok for both and you already own it so unless you intend to extract every possible bit of power from your machine for a certain type of use I would say you should just run it. I don’t have the specs handy for the WB cam but I know the track cam is very well suited to the typical 440 and it’s a very popular grind that’s made by web cam (web450/451) and sold under many different names and brands etc. and the hot cams fall right around the same idea as these. Depending on how you will use your quad you may want to forgo the above advise and look into a cam more suited for the racing you do etc.

[
Wow I guess its as much about money as it is power huh, and for some its almost just the opposite as many have to look into their pocket and then figure how much performance they can afford etc. so a lot of these mods will not be seen in all the motors that get done, and they will run none the less but possibly with just a little less power.

So knowing this lets be honest and admit that most of the bigger costs you guys are posting are not exactly “required” and are more in line with wants or extra performance mods etc.

There is no way you can say that a 416 426 or 440 is not going to out perform a stock engine without an FCR carb and a aftermarket rod (that’s a lot of $$$ for splitting the cases etc.) you also don’t need to be spending $200+ on a cam or $700 on a complete Hinson set up etc.

I get crazy with all the hype and fluff that goes on with this stuff and the constant attempts to extract hundreds of $$$$ from my pocket for stuff that’s not worth half of the usual prices we see. Sure you would see gains or benefits from a lot of these mods but that doesn’t mean they are requirements but just the extra mods that you could do.

In all honesty I have to say the difference in the cost of the “required” or typical stuff to make it work right” between the 416 and 440 is seriously only about $150+ and that’s for the sleeve and installing it. Every other 440 mod listed would work just as well in the 416 and isn’t required of either. As an example wouldn’t you want a stronger rod, hd timing chain or the correct octane fuel in your 416 as you would in a 440?

A lot of the costs of building an engine for better performance will come from the add-on’s etc and the tricks to getting the 440 to perform well are almost free (search “have you decked the cylinder”). Sure there are major benefits in performance from running a FCR carb etc but there not worth a crap if the piston and cylinder or cam and valves aren’t set up correctly. So talk every popular part and mod you like but your still getting the best bang for your buck from the higher cylinder pressure from the piston and better flow from the “bigger” cam. Just those two mods will make it a new machine, and everything from there is a bonus.

So from my view here I see it as: piston kit $120-180, Sleeve and installation $120-200(440) or bore and hone $60-110(416), gaskets $35-40, Cam $120-200. So you can get into a 416 and freshen up your old 400 for just over $335 if you shop well and can do all the assembly work yourself, and most importantly you don’t have any other motor problems. The 440 (don’t buy the kits cause there is no benefit) can be done for a little more and if you get lucky and buy the right piston and end up with acceptable piston to deck measurements you can get the compression right with just using the thinner Cometic gaskets, and if not your looking at around $40-60 to have the cylinder decked.

Now if there are other concerns in the engine like burnt valves, overly weak valve springs or worn rocker pads etc you will be looking at the potential for around $200-300 more to buy new valves, springs and retainers etc and around $225 for replacement rockers (may as well look at the hard facing of you old ones and getting a hard welded cam, but remember some new cams are designed to be soft and run with the stk rockers so if you mix them up the cam can wear prematurely) plus the cost of lapping in the valves etc. And yes some if not all of this you could do yourself.

As far as the other expensive mods I would want them in any motor I would have. Why would I want a better carb in a 440 but not in a 416?

f I can handle 130mph wheelies on my streetbike and 60mph endo's I think I can tame your quad, hahahaa

One very big difference in that I dont have to repair your street bike LMAO.

Sounds like a plan but wount be up for about 3 weeks

[YZROOSTINYA]

pm me when you go up

[monkeyboy]

R U guys roket cintests????????:confused:

Sure monkeynutz y not. :D :devil

[400exRacerX]

My 400 is a 416 13:1 stroked to a 440 with all the goodies and this things revs!! Its also puts out some insane bottom end. All together its a great motor and I have no complaints.

[Chef]

Originally posted by raptor_02
the reason I say their is about a 1000 dollar difference is because if you build a 440 and want it to last you have to have the best of everything.
440
piston=190
cam=375
resleeve=100
heavy duty connecting rod=275
hinson clutch kit=500
gaskets=40
heavy duty cam chain=100
+ the additional cost of racing gas

416
piston=180
cam=375
heavy duty cam chain=100
gaskets=40


Ok....

If both have the same compression, and one needs race gas, then obviously the other one does too. As far as the clutch, stock clutch hardware is junk, no matter what anyone tells you. Its gonna last about 6 months in a good 416. Why wait? I say do the clutch right then. If the 416 kit is done any good, you will want a carb. You will especially want the carb if that Sparks drop in cam isnt just a waste of 375 bucks. I wouldnt want to risk losing a rod in any motor, especially one that has been built. You can buy a Hot-Rods Rod for 140 bucks. get it installed for 120, and your at 260 on that. This brings it down to like a 10 dollar difference, and thats just for the piston. A "Good" motor consists of beefing up the bottom end, and gettin some more horsepower out of the top. End of story.

[ill_lil_romey]

the reason I say their is about a 1000 dollar difference is because if you build a 440 and want it to last you have to have the best of everything.
This issue has been beat to death but everytime it is brought up you guys give some great info, but the bottom line is, that you cannot half-***** a 440. If you want to build a 440 that will run with the best of em' and do it right, then be prepard to shell out about 1200. Bottom line. For the economic minded rider or amature racer a 416 is more practical. Just my opinion on the subject at hand.

[raptor_02]

Originally posted by Chef
Ok....

If both have the same compression, and one needs race gas, then obviously the other one does too. As far as the clutch, stock clutch hardware is junk, no matter what anyone tells you. Its gonna last about 6 months in a good 416. Why wait? I say do the clutch right then. If the 416 kit is done any good, you will want a carb. You will especially want the carb if that Sparks drop in cam isnt just a waste of 375 bucks. I wouldnt want to risk losing a rod in any motor, especially one that has been built. You can buy a Hot-Rods Rod for 140 bucks. get it installed for 120, and your at 260 on that. This brings it down to like a 10 dollar difference, and thats just for the piston. A "Good" motor consists of beefing up the bottom end, and gettin some more horsepower out of the top. End of story. it's obvious that your going to defend your 440 regardless what anyone has to say. I'm just passing Info I have learned from some inteligent people on here. I'm no engine builder and it sounds like your not either. A 416 does not need race gas. It would be smart to run it on race gas but it isn't needed as bad as a 440. 440's run hotter than 416's so race gas would be needed more for a 440. If I went with a 440 it would be a 12/1 piston to where a 416 i would go with a 10.5/1 or 11/1. Somewhere to where I can run pump gas. A stock clutch will last much longer in a 416 than a 440. I don't think the drop in cam at sparks is a waste of money with a FCR carb or a stock carb. Sparks claims his 416 national motor will smoke other companies 440 national motors:D . I don't know if that's true but give him a call, lol. What are you going to do if you blow up a 440???? You can always keep boring if you blow up a 416. That's the end of story. Go with the 416. This old air cooled engine can't take a half***** 440 kit and if you talk around to people you will hear about bunches of 440's blowing. More than 416's I gurantee that:cool:

[Chef]

If my 440 blows up, I will bore the sleeve, again...lol It already seized one piston because of bad fuel, it had rust and junk in it...I do know that the Sparks 416 motors aint gonna touch my 440...:blah

[raptor_02]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chef
If my 440 blows up, I will bore the sleeve, again...lol It already seized one piston because of bad fuel, it had rust and junk in it...I do know that the Sparks 416 motors aint gonna touch my 440...:blah [/QUOTE i don't know what you have done to your 440 but if its a good one i'd say it would smoke a 416 national. After thinking it over to build both a good 416 and a 440 the cost would be pretty close. But I think if you put 500 in a 416 and 500 in a 440 the 400 won't last near as long. That's just my opinion. I think you can get away with half assing a 416 but not a 440. Anyways I don't even need to be commenting cause I can't even make a main event in the damn C class :grr How bad does that 440 smoke that craptor????? I'd love to have that kind of power out of my ex

[Chef]

lol, the one you should be asking about is the black one in the fore ground :p The Banshee has T-5's, Cool Head with 16cc Domes, V-Force Reeds, Timing Advance, Wiseco Pro Lites, Pro Flo w/ K&N, and a lightened Fly Wheel.

Oh yeah, The 440 smokes the craptor by a good 90 feet in the 300. :)

[Porkchop]

lol the sad thing about your banshee Chef is that my 400's gonna roost all over it at whinchester bay! :blah tee hee hee

[Chef]

LOL! Are we gonna be down there the same time? I am gonna be at Coos Bay, in a cabin thing...you gonna be around?

[Steve-o 400EX]

Originally posted by raptor_02
it's obvious that your going to defend your 440 regardless what anyone has to say. I'm just passing Info I have learned from some inteligent people on here. I'm no engine builder and it sounds like your not either. A 416 does not need race gas. It would be smart to run it on race gas but it isn't needed as bad as a 440. 440's run hotter than 416's so race gas would be needed more for a 440. If I went with a 440 it would be a 12/1 piston to where a 416 i would go with a 10.5/1 or 11/1. Somewhere to where I can run pump gas. A stock clutch will last much longer in a 416 than a 440. I don't think the drop in cam at sparks is a waste of money with a FCR carb or a stock carb. Sparks claims his 416 national motor will smoke other companies 440 national motors:D . I don't know if that's true but give him a call, lol. What are you going to do if you blow up a 440???? You can always keep boring if you blow up a 416. That's the end of story. Go with the 416. This old air cooled engine can't take a half***** 440 kit and if you talk around to people you will hear about bunches of 440's blowing. More than 416's I gurantee that:cool:

All I can say is, I agree.

[jaspurx]

well if a 440 pops , it just gets bored to 465 , or even 500!! so far i have not heard of a four stroke tech 500 going sour!! i would say i believe what sparks says about his 416 smoking a 440 , he was smoking everything on the track way back when half theese guys on here were not even a thought of the future!! he knows what he is doing.he was in on a 416 that smoked everything at baja a couple years ago.

Well I guess all the BS controversy over this will never end :grr

Do what you all like and have fun riding it, but just try to keep up OK :D :blah :macho

[mopar 400]

Well after reading all your guys thoughts, I think the next thing I am going to do is get a Full port and Polish and three angle valve job, then maybe in the future when the 416 blows! get a 440. Thanks for all the great responses.

[TagRider]

My 416 rips like John Holmes through a virgin:devil

[Steve-o 400EX]

Originally posted by TagRider
My 416 rips like John Holmes through a virgin:devil

:eek: :eek2:

[jaspurx]

a 416 is bore lob , a 440 is bore job. the idea of a 465 and 500 is not the best solution for those of us with gnc aspirations! but a 416 stroked near 440 should just eat some competition!! has anybody done this?

[hondaboy400ex]

ok for most ppl that ride alot and not on a track its a big deal to have a realible quad and for a 440 u going to sacrfice alot but for a 416 u will have a alot better realible so thats u anwser **** u all i just felt like saying that

Oh just do something, even if its wrong ;) :blah

BTW I just re read thru this post and I think its all in there so I am going to move on.

Just one last thought,







Dont end up like this

[mopar 400]

LOL, that is great!