Torque spec's

[KKiowaTJ]

I know, Get a manual or search. I did a couple and didn't find exactly what I wanted. I have a few parts to hang and the rest to dial in. But before my quad looks good sitting with a smoked clutch and out of whack alignment, Id like to get her running like a top and then add the bling.

Mainly clutch torque spec's: I have read/told don't need to just tight/snug. Others say you need a torque wrench(s) and get it spot on. The best was make sure 110% of the surfaces are clean of any old material.
With that said, Do I go buy/borrow torque wrenches I need or can it be done with 1/4" and hand tight case wise?

I was told for the 5 star pattern that holds the clutch, Go around in a pattern and you want them tight, But not 1/2" drive tight.
The oil lines was 'just don loose the dowel pins or O-rings.

Im looking for the torque spec's mainly, plate/basket bolts and side cover bolts. If anyone has them close or off the top of their head would be great, I just want to do this right the first time lol. Thanks in advance for any advice or tips and tricks

[2001400exrida]

don't torque the side cover bolts, the torque value on those little 8mm is so light that you're better of just snugging them. Also the 5 bolts for the clutch springs stop when they are tight. So, once they stop, don't turn anymore.

[KKiowaTJ]

Cool, Thanks. I know its a 'you dumbass' question, But I wanted to double check. Thanks for the help

[Stickman400]

Yea, the last time I changed mine I tried looking through my service manual for the pressure plate bolts, oil line bolts and side cover bolts and there wasn't any. Just "snug them down firmly" or something along those lines.

[2001400exrida]

Cool, Thanks. I know its a 'you dumbass' question, But I wanted to double check. Thanks for the help

naw it's good to check. i snapped one in the clutch one time trying to torque it. literally once it stops, it's done lol can't tighten anymore.

[KKiowaTJ]

I have read the 'sticky' in the 400 section and almost have this down in my sleep so it goes smooth. But never ran across the torque spec's, But as mentioned 'snug' and 'tight' is about as far as you get. So with my gorilla hands ill use 1/4" for the side cover and 3/8" for the PP/basket.
I did read, As you mentioned, When the 5 bolts in the star pattern are 'tight', There is no more to it unless you want to break the bolt(s) or pull out threads. So I do feel a little better that I cant screw it up too much lol. Hopefully, So easy a caveman can do it! Only thing I don't have is a plastic razor blade to clean the aluminum cases, But can always make something.
Thanks for the extra help

[Blodg]

You will be scraping on the clutch cover gasket surface for days with a plastic blade. At least in my experience. I started with a plastic chisel actually made to remove gaskets and after several hours of working on it I was barely scratching the surface (literally). I went to a normal razor blade and you need to use care to not gouge the soft aluminum but I was done in a few hours. It really would have taken me days the other way but I guess it also depends how much gasket material you have left on the surface.

[KKiowaTJ]

Even though I know it will throw little bits everywhere, I thought about using a pistol grip grinder and a scotch brite pad that wont warp or do anything but lean and polish. If i have a lot to do and can cover the motor, Ill go that route. Otherwise ill get a paint scraper thing or vice grips and blade lol.

[2001400exrida]

A scotch brite works just fine and regardless of what some say u won't have to lap surface I build a motor and cleaned gasket areas with gasket removal scotchpad. While many laughe at me and said it would need lapped amazingly all things seem to be holding together.

[KKiowaTJ]

I see no harm or foul using a non abrasive scotch brite or even another attachment to take off the gasket material. As long as it don't take material from the cases, I don't see where it would hurt. More or less just using a high speed eraser is all, I have used them before with no problems. But I can see if you used a lot of pressure it could if you went too long in one spot.

Guess ill start slow and if its taking longer than expected, Ill get out the pneumatic tools!

[Blodg]

A scotch brite works just fine and regardless of what some say u won't have to lap surface I build a motor and cleaned gasket areas with gasket removal scotchpad. While many laughe at me and said it would need lapped amazingly all things seem to be holding together.
I didn't see an issue with you using scotch pad but what do you mean "it all seems to be holding together"? How long have you ridden it, I thought you just started it for the first time a couple days ago? To say something held together well I think you would need to ride it for a few years. Anything less than that should be considered a failure.

[2001400exrida]

i gave it a good ride yesterday for a proper break in. changed oil, then rode it again for awhile. probably put an hour total on it. i hate to jinx myself and i know i'm speaking too soon, but i'm just saying, so far so good. a few years to be a successful build? lol race motors are a success if they hold together for a full season man. if it comes apart during the season i failed.

[LxMxL97]

I'm not trying to argue with you and high jack this thread but an hour of total ride time is not enough to properly break in a motor

[2001400exrida]

it absolutely is plenty of time to get it broke in or at least 80% broke in. the first 20 minutes of motor time are the only time you'll get a good shot at breaking it in and getting proper ring seat. after 2 oil changes and an hour on the motor i consider this motor to be broke in without a doubt and it's going to be getting nothing but hard run time from here on out since it's a race motor. i know guys that give there motors 1 warm up ride and hit the track the next day, it's up to the individual and is a debateable topic but i have had good luck using motomans method of break in.

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

here's his quoted text about the timely matter required for good ring seal
There's a very small window of opportunity to get the rings to seal really well ... the first 20 miles !!

[KKiowaTJ]

Ill look at the link, But IMO a 2 stroke was ready 5 minutes after I rebuilt the top ends. I rode till I blew them and would net 60 hours a piston. One heat cycle and through the gears and never had a problem in the years I rode like that on my CR250.

These motors, I take them as a car motor! I have no clue and don't want to come off like I know how to change a 400's plug, I never have yet in the two years and however many hours lol. I have no idea so I read all and wait for one to go and rule that one out. So far, Outside of the XR400 parts build, IMO the 406 is what I feel as a dependable build. But I also would P&P the head, FCR and a header so everything flows perfect.
But my luck, I have a hacked together 416 that is tired as hell, Just no smoke yet lol.

That being said, Unless done already, I would heat cycle it a couple times and then go ride it never leaving the throttle at the same position for around 15 miles/ couple hours and IMO its broke in, Oil changes of course. Some like to break them like you are going to ride them, I just choose to run up and down the rpm to let everything settle.

To each their own, If it blows he is out a motor, Holds together a season he had a successful build. Only way to find out is build it and try.

[CJM]

Way I always broke stuff in was to make sure it ran ok for a few mins, checking for leaks and issues then go ride the piss out of it (ride it like you stole and and someones giving chase!). 2 strokes, fire it up, check for leaks and never look back lol

I never had an issue doing this with the 400 and probably put a good 100-150hrs or better on each build riding all day every single sunday and sometimes both saturday and sunday for an entire year. What does the 400 motors in is heat, jetted right your good. But anything abused and revved to the hill all day long will fail much sooner than someone who pokes along. 2 things did my 400 in: 1. age, it was an originally 99 and had ALOT of hours, 2. I sunk it bad once in a lake. Those 2 things Im sure caused the crank bearings to begin to fail and or the rod to bend slightly. After I sunk it I broke it down and checked and redid it-but it vibrated badly. I had enough and had a 450 at that point so I sold it. By that point though I had owned it for 5 years, put countless hours on it and rebuilt it 3x

As for cleaning the gasket surfaces:
-Remove all gaskets as much as you can
-Single edge razor blade to get whatever didnt come off easy
-green scotchbrite and go easy on it.
-600 grit sandpaper to lap it
-brake clean (NOT carb clean, it leaves a residue)
-Clean cloth
-Put gaskets on.

Never had one fail done that that way.

[KKiowaTJ]

LMFAO... I went out because of this snow storm we are getting, All I have is a can of brake cleaner lol. I didn't get a chance to get a scraper, But can make one easy enough. Lapping, Had to look that up, But I have always done that, Just called it scuff/ruffing the edges up a bit for a better bite and seal. Not too much, But I know I cant mate two shinny pieces together with out a leak.
I think ill just do it old school and not be in a hurry. Take my time and make sure I don't put any gouges etc in it. How long is it in the book by chance for the repair? I ask so I can ballpark my time because I have my son and cant bring him out into the cold too much and don't want to let him nap and let jesus watch him lol.

Im thinking all said and done 3-4 hours taking my time total. I for see o-ring or dowel/gasket trouble knock on wood, But I always end up doing it the hard way lol.

[jcs003]

engine break in:

http://www.duncanracing.com/TechCenter/atv_breakin4strk.pdf

john

[2001400exrida]

there's no way i'll go by that method jcs. i know duncan knows there stuff but they are telling us to let it idle for 10 minutes then shut it off, and repeat 2 more times? so that's 30 minutes of idle time before you go ride the thing? terrible idea! i'm not saying this will make a motor blow or not run, but i'd bet those rings don't seal properly using the duncan method. it's a controversial topic but as motoman has shown it is proven that a good hard breakin is beter for ring seal.

[jcs003]

there's no way i'll go by that method jcs. i know duncan knows there stuff but they are telling us to let it idle for 10 minutes then shut it off, and repeat 2 more times? so that's 30 minutes of idle time before you go ride the thing? terrible idea! i'm not saying this will make a motor blow or not run, but i'd bet those rings don't seal properly using the duncan method. it's a controversial topic but as motoman has shown it is proven that a good hard breakin is beter for ring seal.

seems motoman doesnt understand tribology. more to breaking in an engine then matching the rings to the bore.

john

[2001400exrida]

not just motoman but the rest of the world, lol. even guys who don't agree with the hard break in procedure still don't recommend allowing it to idle for extended periods during initial startups. the main purpose of break-in is certainly ring seal.

nothing against duncan i just think it's bad advice to tell somebody to let their engine idle for 30 minutes total during the first startups. I've actually never seen another motor head recommend that. from cars, to nitro cars, to atv's to airplanes, any break-in technique that i have researched specifically says not to allow long idles

[jcs003]

not just motoman but the rest of the world, lol. even guys who don't agree with the hard break in procedure still don't recommend allowing it to idle for extended periods during initial startups. the main purpose of break-in is certainly ring seal.

nothing against duncan i just think it's bad advice to tell somebody to let their engine idle for 30 minutes total during the first startups. I've actually never seen another motor head recommend that. from cars, to nitro cars, to atv's to airplanes, any break-in technique that i have researched specifically says not to allow long idles

most certainly is not just for ring seal. like i said motoman doesnt know enough about tribology; and im know you know nothing.

here is a tidbit for you. the piston and bore are only theoretically round and at full expansion there will be a significant friction force between the piston, oil and bore. if you look at the stribeck curve there is interactions between all three. of course tolerances play a significant role. see contact mechanics.

and where does duncan say 30 minute idle time? can you read?

john

[Blodg]

The Duncan instructions most certainly do recommend a total of 30 min of just idle before riding. Which is the exact opposite of what all the cam manufacturers recommend when breaking in a new cam. It doesn't specify but I wonder if the Duncan instructions were just referring to a new piston and rings?

[jcs003]

The Duncan instructions most certainly do recommend a total of 30 min of just idle before riding. Which is the exact opposite of what all the cam manufacturers recommend when breaking in a new cam. It doesn't specify but I wonder if the Duncan instructions were just referring to a new piston and rings?

10 minutes of idle time and at least 30 minutes of cool down. nowhere does it say idle for 30 minutes.

john

[Blodg]

Read it again jcs. I said a total of 30 min before riding, what is 10 x 3?

[KKiowaTJ]

Motomans idea of 'heat cycle' is nowhere near what mine and reasons I have always heat cycled. Its to let the cam, Crank, Bearings and seals to find their place in a new motor. Shut it down to cool so the part expand and retract. You have assembly lube still on some parts that need to get comfortable in their new spot.

I honestly could give a **** less about rings when im breaking in a new motor, As motorman mentioned you can always throw another set of rings on the piston to seat them if they did not get done correct. Im more worried about tolerances and the lower end for the long run.

But if you think about it, Duncan and motoman are close. He didn't warm up and cool off to check oil, Or didn't list he did nor did Duncan, But im sure that was done per manual and to be sure either was not taking off with less fluid(s). Going all out, Or going in % stages, If its with-in the same 20 mile/couple hours, They will break in the same.
As long as you don't keep the motor at the same rpm and accelerate and decelerate through any break in, You will seat the rings to the best of its ability IMO.

Im no motor guru but have had a few apart. Reading both, They both sounded like they went the distance, Just a cleaner piston and cylinder on the one. Good brain food and more of a headache down the road lol, But seems I have a fail safe if I do screw up the seating.
I do know that no piston/rings match the bore, Unless you take the piston to the shop doing the work so they can bore match it. That and along with chamfer the ports so the ring don't catch a lip. But that's just old tech that I wont let go and I could be FOS but it never failed on me when I did it that way. I guess that's where the term 'competition' comes into play, Not only on the track and skill, But by who can keep you out on the track the longest.

Great info so far, I know one will be against another, But there is common ground shared so the more the better!

[jcs003]

Read it again jcs. I said a total of 30 min before riding, what is 10 x 3?

it was implied that it was to idle for 30 minutes straight. you read it again!

john

[2001400exrida]

30 min total is what I wrote.
And that is the first 30 min of run time

[jcs003]

30 min total is what I wrote.
And that is the first 30 min of run time

i stand corrected you did say "total." i apologize for misquoting. but that is irrelevant of the nature of the disagreement and my argument is based on science and my 6 years in engineering school and 10 years working as a mechanical engineer. you base your argument on what some guy off the internet says that contradicts decades of tried and true methods.

john

john

[2001400exrida]

Not some guy on the internet but also a previously built motor and the fact that most of the people I talk to are on the same page with not letting it idle for that long. And especially not 3 times with nothing but 10 min of idle. I don't care what your qualifications are. Duncan definitely has some knowledge on the subject. Fact is its now been shown to affect proper ring seal. Google it don't take my word for it. Better yet call a shop and ask what they suggest.

[jcs003]

Not some guy on the internet but also a previously built motor and the fact that most of the people I talk to are on the same page with not letting it idle for that long. And especially not 3 times with nothing but 10 min of idle. I don't care what your qualifications are. Duncan definitely has some knowledge on the subject. Fact is its now been shown to affect proper ring seal. Google it don't take my word for it. Better yet call a shop and ask what they suggest.

so let me get this straight: the mechanical engineering and a race engine building company that has been around for close to 40 years are wrong but you are correct???lmao

john

[2001400exrida]

Nope never said that. By all means Duncan knows there stuff. What I did say is that through my research Duncan is the only company I've seem recommending 30 minutes of nothing but idle. Everybody else I talk to specifically says thats a no no. Don't get offended about it I'm just telling you what my thoughts are. To each there own, if u don't want a proper ring real let that baby idle I don't care. You won't be breaking my motors in.

For a mechanical engineer you are having a tough time grasping the concept of the ring seal. I'm not impressed in the amount of effort it has taken us to try to explain the reasons most builders suggest running through rpm and engine braking.....are you so set in duncans method or can you just not fathom the science behind this?

don't take my word for it, (it's obvoius you're not going to do that) but for the rest of the people breaking in motors, here is plenty of other opinions on it. none of which sugggest 3 heat cycles of pure idle time.

this has been debated on this forum before. as i see happening in this thread, everybody has their own opinion, but i do think this day in age many people have had such great results from motomans method that it's more of a staple now for break in vs the old school 2 stroke guys who always did heat cycles and idle time.

http://www.atvriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?221866-How-To-Break-in-an-engine/page2

[jcs003]

Nope never said that. By all means Duncan knows there stuff. What I did say is that through my research Duncan is the only company I've seem recommending 30 minutes of nothing but idle. Everybody else I talk to specifically says thats a no no. Don't get offended about it I'm just telling you what my thoughts are. To each there own, if u don't want a proper ring real let that baby idle I don't care. You won't be breaking my motors in.

For a mechanical engineer you are having a tough time grasping the concept of the ring seal. I'm not impressed in the amount of effort it has taken us to try to explain the reasons most builders suggest running through rpm and engine braking.....are you so set in duncans method or can you just not fathom the science behind this?

i am by no means claiming duncans method as gospel. however, this is a safe approach seeing how most builders do not have the manufacturing equipment to machine to tolerances where a break-in cycle can be done through motomans method. you seem to not understand the mechanics of this. like i suggested. learn about tribology, contact mechanics/dynamics, then you will see why it is better for your engine to take a passive approach to engine break in. some people are just so stubborn they refuse to learn more about what goes on. soon jerry hall will be publishing a paper on the nature of engine break-in. included; will be, the science, engineering, machining associated with engine break-in.

john

[2001400exrida]

ok your right, take the passive break in approach. baby that thing all day long through the gears, let it idle, keep a constant rpm.....it's your motor. you are proving your own point about people being stubborn and refusing to learn more about what goes on. with newer higher tolerance motors methods have changed.

will either method leave you stranded no? but i think we've seen with motomans tests that one does work better than the other.

[jcs003]

it's argued and proven by motoman that the passive approach during break-in on these new high tolerance 4 stroke motors is less effective. he has posted proof of pistons and power output.

that's why i go with his method and not yours or duncans. also i've had good luck with his method so why not?

http://www.ctracing.com/four%20stroke%20break%20in.htm

http://www.rays-shop.com/2012/02/how-to-break-in-your-nice-new-4-stroke-engine/

http://www.lasleeve.com/downloads/4-stroke-break-in-procedures.pdf

here are just a couple.

john

[2001400exrida]

all 3 of those links vary greatly in their description. one says to idle at 2k rpm, the other says a very low idle for the first 5 min. have you figured out yet that there are many varying opinions on this topic? the only thing i can't agree with is the extended steady rpm idle time.

i can post link after link debunking extended idles and heat cycle methods, but i really don't care, i just don't think that 30 minutes of idle on break in startup is recommended for proper ring seal.

[jcs003]

all 3 of those links vary greatly in their description. one says to idle at 2k rpm, the other says a very low idle for the first 5 min. have you figured out yet that there are many varying opinions on this topic? the only thing i can't agree with is the extended steady rpm idle time.

i can post link after link debunking extended idles and heat cycle methods, but i really don't care, i just don't think that 30 minutes of idle on break in startup is recommended for proper ring seal.

i give up. apparently you are not very bright and dont understand the science behind a passive method. this is why engine builders love guys like you. you put food on their table.

john

[2001400exrida]

my builder recommends the method that i used. "hard" break in. once warm. now if you want to go and say mixxer don't know anything about these motors you go right ahead. better yet jack rousch doesn't know anything about motors either right? i'm trying to explain to you that this is a method that some prefer. you can go scientific on my @$$ but the only food i put on the table is max power baby!

http://www.trx450r.org/forum/93-engine/206103-max-power-engine-break-procedure.html

continue reading that thread and you will see how many others do the same method.

here's some more guys saying they have done the ride it hard method with no issues. http://www.trx450r.org/forum/93-engine/146556-best-way-break-new-piston-cam.html

[jcs003]

rocksalt seemed to have an understanding of what goes on.

john

[KKiowaTJ]

Interesting on how many methods there are. CT and LA seem to have cut and pasted theirs from each other, Only minor differences.

Im kinda in the middle of everyway mentioned, Except 'jetting' to break it in. Unless im going bigger, No reason to change it what so ever, More so for the fact that's what the motor will be ran on.

Id have to chalk it up to technology making it easier to get your motor broke along with, No offense, But kids and daddys money, If it blows he will buy new! That generation jumped on board with the plug and pin it method.
But the fact a lot of motors didn't blow has made it almost mainstream with the way you break them in. Great food for thought on all links and methods, Really comes down to if you want to try it or play it safe!

This 'mixxer' guy, I have read many reviews, Threads, Links etc on this guy and I have no idea 'who' he is. But, I have noticed he is a 50/50 builder. Some of the guys were happy, Some said they received chit back. Mainly on the P&P side, He leaves alot of un-happy customers from lack of 'finishing the job'.
Like I said, Don't know him, But in the last few months I have read and herd that name in many posts.

But as it was mentioned, Im not breaking in you're motor, John's not breaking in mine, It comes down to what the owner deems 'the best method possible' for his application. The only thing I can stand with is, These are race geared motors that are being built.
In racing you don't always have the 'break in' time when you have to swap in the pits. I know I have had motors that were never fired go out to a C heat and the green dropped and throttle down! Now these are sprint car motors im talking about, But I would think its one in the same as its a motor, Just 7 more pistons and 620hp more lol.

What I do know, Is I have a knack for starting threads that get derailed and this time, Don't get yourselves banned! This is good info in all directions, But we have to keep it civil or we get vacations or a lock.

[jcs003]

sorry KKiowaTJ. i get carried away. i will try to be more respectful to the OP from now on.

john

[KKiowaTJ]

sorry KKiowaTJ. i get carried away. i will try to be more respectful to the OP from now on.

john



Nah, Not in that sense, Just don't cross any on you're part or ryan to get you guys both a vacation or they lock the thread so good links and info go away. That's all I meant.

Im the one who is notorious for starting a thread that takes a turn for the worst. I don't wanna see you guys get banned is all, even for a week. No reason to apologize, You did nothing wrong but provide info.

[2001400exrida]

This 'mixxer' guy, I have read many reviews, Threads, Links etc on this guy and I have no idea 'who' he is. But, I have noticed he is a 50/50 builder. Some of the guys were happy, Some said they received chit back. Mainly on the P&P side, He leaves alot of un-happy customers from lack of 'finishing the job'.
Like I said, Don't know him, But in the last few months I have read and herd that name in many posts.


he is John from Venom performance, been in the game for a long time. Most of the negativity that you will find towards John are the big drag builders. Many of the west coast guys hate him because he reveals all trade secrets. Time and time again these guys will bash and insult John, I personally think he is a great aspect to the sport and has tons of helpful info. It worry's me that you said he leaves lots of unhappy customers and send chit back? I have never heard this before, and of course there might be 1 or 2 because you can't please everybody, but I am concerned about your statement. I'm not sure what you mean by not finishing the job either, like leaving a head half ported? lol. He does this as a side job, he has a day job. He is not in it to make a living, but i can assure you he doesn't do chit work. This is my experience..... I've dealt with John for the past 2 years now and I have to say i think he does a great job, his turn around is fast and he doesn't BS. You ask him something and he'll give it to you straight. He bleeds honda red.

[KKiowaTJ]

Its the web, For every happy guy, There are a few to be there to say the opposite. That's where the mixed reviews of john/mixer came into play. The ones that had complaints, Were shavings left, Not ported thoroughly and or not ported at all. But as I said, I only read these skimming through old and current threads and posts.
I have no ill feelings toward a guy I don't know and it sounds like competition for P&P IMO. I said 50/50, For the fact if a few liked, There is a few who would be against it. Id say unhappy because they wanted something for nothing, Or that's how they came off from not liking the end result.
I don't know him, But was kinda curious as his name has been thrown around quite a bit the last few months and threads showed he was pushed to a yami450 site or just stays there now? Either way, Im not a pissed or shun because others don't like, Just curious about him/who he was with all the chit chat.
I bet they don't like it, To F'N bad a guy tells the 'secrets', Truth be told its not the 'secret' its how the job is done. He must have made an impact in P&P world or there wouldn't be any info or his name floating around. To each their own, Just wanted to know 'who' he was etc instead of going off posts and the like.

[2001400exrida]

yeah too many of the guys on the honda site were jacking around and even some of the mods on the org were just being straight mean. he is really making a name with the hvp porting on the yamaha heads now. the guys over there treat him with respect and they mods don't allow people to talk him down. it's too bad that he doesn't go to the org very much anymore, but honestly besides all the great old posts on trx450r.org, that site is going downhill fast. too many kids and new guys posting complete nonsense. John has some awesome old threads on the org, but now the new stuff that he posts is great too but you have to go to yfzcentral to find it. He has been banned from both forums for head butting some of the other builders, but in the long haul he's a great aspect to any forum.

[atvrider13]

Wow did this thread get way off track. Out of all of the information that is on forums its amazing how whenever I try looking up an answer to a problem or find a thread that pertains to what im looking for its filled with a buncha crap and you can never find what you were looking for. My advice to all is try to keep these threads informative and not try to load them up with stuff that has nothing to do with the original question.

[2001400exrida]

Wow did this thread get way off track. Out of all of the information that is on forums its amazing how whenever I try looking up an answer to a problem or find a thread that pertains to what im looking for its filled with a buncha crap and you can never find what you were looking for. My advice to all is try to keep these threads informative and not try to load them up with stuff that has nothing to do with the original question.

where you wanting the torque specs? OP's original question was answered early on on page 1 i do believe. Yes this went on a tangent when break-in was discussed but you will find the answers to the original question early in this thread.

[atvrider13]

where you wanting the torque specs? OP's original question was answered early on on page 1 i do believe. Yes this went on a tangent when break-in was discussed but you will find the answers to the original question early in this thread.
No just observing a thread gone bad .

[KKiowaTJ]

yeah too many of the guys on the honda site were jacking around and even some of the mods on the org were just being straight mean. he is really making a name with the hvp porting on the yamaha heads now. the guys over there treat him with respect and they mods don't allow people to talk him down. it's too bad that he doesn't go to the org very much anymore, but honestly besides all the great old posts on trx450r.org, that site is going downhill fast. too many kids and new guys posting complete nonsense. John has some awesome old threads on the org, but now the new stuff that he posts is great too but you have to go to yfzcentral to find it. He has been banned from both forums for head butting some of the other builders, but in the long haul he's a great aspect to any forum.



I see. It happens in every motorsport or 'competition' sport around. That's the nature of the beast and what works for one guy in one area, Wont make it past a trail head in another area.
I chalked it up to a head butting match(s) with other builders. That's why im gonna follow cronic's thread and do my own lol. Buy a spare head and take a shot! IMO any advice givin, Has some truth to it. It might not be the correct way, But if it limps me back to the truck/shop, Wasn't too bad of advice lol.




No just observing a thread gone bad .



I got Duncan, LA and motomans links to different types of break in options. I didn't have them before, Didn't 'need' them, But now I do for when the time comes I dont have to post 'whats the best method'.
I know where you are coming from though, They have a tendency lately to wander off to something un-related, But good info non the less, Just depends on how ya look at it.

[400man]

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/ky2stroker/epic_haters_gonna_hate_memes_640_37_zps08b2b6ea.jp g (http://s417.photobucket.com/user/ky2stroker/media/epic_haters_gonna_hate_memes_640_37_zps08b2b6ea.jp g.html)


I torque my side cover bolts with a quarter inch drive screw driver and 5/16 quarter inch drive socket

[chronicsmoke]

I chalked it up to a head butting match(s) with other builders. That's why im gonna follow cronic's thread and do my own lol. Buy a spare head and take a shot! IMO any advice givin, Has some truth to it. It might not be the correct way, But if it limps me back to the truck/shop, Wasn't too bad of advice lol.

Haha hell yah!

I'll have some updates too on that I got my spare head and all my tools I'm going to play around with the chamber tonight.

I'm asking John @ Venom for tips & advice and he is without a doubt one of the smartest I have talked to when it comes to the theory. Where a lot of the negative comments come in are when goes on rants in a condesending manor which leads to controversy with other builders/enthusiasts.

Great guy to discuss with but I can see why he has a negative following as well as a positive. the guys local to me seem to be happy with his work

[KKiowaTJ]

If you 'jump in' this sport and really have no clue of what it can do and what 10% actually means, You will be a hater if the masses lean that day. IMO, What I read, Is a guy who took an art, And dumbed it down to be able to explain it to you , me or a 'newb' 100% to the sport, How to do it in you shop and that while it is tricky almost anyone can do it.

Some think that a P&P job should snap chains with the 'new power'. Some want to try, But would not chance it and send it to him. That's where you get the footsie fights lol. One will blame 'that's cause X wasn't done' and in reality 'his' P&P is of the same exact nature. From there goes the ban stick or told to let it go.

I might have to join YFZ central so I can read some fresh material and or see if there is a 400 sticky floating around. Or never know, Might just have him do it for the fact sometimes it cheaper to pay to have it done. When I say a 50/50 builder, 50% like his work and 50% had a problem with this or that. Either way, 100% is running his P&P done head, Some just decide to think 'more' could have been done and or it wasn't cleaned poor excuses if you know the jest of how motor work, works.
Good/bad/ugly, He is still around on the web, email, phone or a forum somewhere to fix any problems if there are any. But everyone wants something for nothing these days!