Synthetic or conventional?

[OZ-T]

So, I've heard mixed reviews on using synthetic in these quads. I used to run it in my 02 without any problems and liked it better because the transmission shifted so much smoother and the engine seemed to respond and run better period. But when I got my new machine and talked to people about it, they say to avoid synthetic because it makes the clutches slip. I never noticed this on my old machine, and most of those guys were on utilities that had automatic clutches so maybe it is different than manual clutches? Like I said, I never noticed any clutch slippage when I ran synthetic before. Plus I firmly believe synthetic preserves the life of your engine longer, I run it in all my rigs and motorcycle too without any issues so can't see why it would be bad for the quad.

What are your thoughts on this and what do you prefer to run and why? I have ran conventional the first 2 changes because of the break in period, but now everything is broke in and I am ready to start putting the good stuff in her.

[CJM]

The motor oil you use must be wet clutch compatible. I run rotella T 15w-40 in everything from my quad, lawn mower and my truck among other things. Never an issue and its what most people like to run in their toys.

[KKiowaTJ]

Only time I used rotella, I blew a motor. Looked it up and made by Pennzoil, Explained it all. I also don't fall for the synthetic is better BS, Its not going to do anything but cost you more money per oil change. If you change it often dino is just as good as any high dollar oil.

I have ran 10w-40 Honda gn4 and Honda filter since I got my 400 and still as good today as the day I bought it less me burning up a clutch. Its really comes down to what you want to run. As mentioned, Just make sure its wet clutch oil and you cant go wrong.

[DragonGunner]

The motor oil you use must be wet clutch compatible. I run rotella T 15w-40 in everything from my quad, lawn mower and my truck among other things. Never an issue and its what most people like to run in their toys.


I have read where alot of guys on this forum run the Rotella and swear by it. I run Spectra 10w-40 oil in mine. The KTM motor I have I run full synthetic. Full sythentic is good stuff if its made for the engine, can go alot longer between oil changes too. Most oils out there are good, its more important to make regular oil changes when needed no matter what oil you use IMHO.

[CJM]

Yea honestly I liked running mobil 1 20w-50 in my 400ex years ago, seemed it lasted longer than using rotella. Been running rotella in the 450 tho with no issue.

[KKiowaTJ]

I think I read 1000 posts on rotella oil for 400's, 450's, I6 4.0L's etc and im almost positive im the ONLY person who has had a bad experience with it. I figured id put it in a jeep motor first, For the fact it has zddp in it. No motor need zinc added to it but I figured id try it. It was a tight, Strong motor and it didn't make it home before blowing a piston to pieces you couldn't recognize and a huge hole in the block.
After that, No way in hell I was going to put it in my shop let alone any other motors. As mentioned though, Im the only one who had a bad run in with it. I put it on the list with quick mistake and Pennzoil.
I had good results from Valvoline bike oil in my R1 when I had it, Ran the snot out of it and was as clean coming out as new going in. But as long as you change the oil regularly and keep everything clean, You wont have a problem.

[CJM]

Id say its possible that the oil wasnt the culprit-but in your case it was the least common denominator so it is possible. Unlikely but possible.

Heres a good story for ya as well: Changed oil in my work truck, no issues. Ran snot out of it one night about 2 days later and motor sounded like a bucket of bolts. Called other worker, we checked it out and nothings leaking and no low oil. Called it into the boss, sent me home. Started itup again after letting it sit..no noise and no noise since. 300k on a 6.0 work van lol.

[KKiowaTJ]

Weird things happen! I highly doubt is was the oil too, But was the only thing I did different in years on that vehicle. I think it was a valve or push rod that did it, But it went and I kept going with it to the floor until I made it to the next town lol.

[Thumpin440ex]

Oil didn't cause the problem. Rotella T in everything I have as well.

John

[MtnEX]

My 400EX likes the Rotella fine. I like how it seems to cling to the parts in the top end and stay for long periods.

With that said, 99% of the clutch slip stuff is hog wash to get you to buy expensive motorcycle oil. In fact if you look at oil analysis and MSDS sheets you'll find gobs of the stuff in the motorcycle oils they swear makes it slip. I have also heard the synthetic oil crap too. They started that up when most of the OEM's didn't have a synthetic on the shelf yet.

I hate to be the one to break the news, but Honda/Yamaha/Suzuki/Kawasaki/Polaris/Harley don't make friggin oil!!!
What they do is private labeling, and likely to the lowest bidder. So you may get Pennsoil for a while and Havoline next time around.


What I have decided overall is that I like 15w50 Mobil 1. I have had fantastic results with it in my Kawasaki. It only holds 1.25 qts. So I buy the 5 gallon jugs on sale and that's 4 oil changes right there. Cheap and good. When my EX is rebuilt I will break in on Rotella, probably 2 drains and then switch it to the 15w50 Mobil 1 also.

[DragonGunner]

My 400EX likes the Rotella fine. I like how it seems to cling to the parts in the top end and stay for long periods.

With that said, 99% of the clutch slip stuff is hog wash to get you to buy expensive motorcycle oil. In fact if you look at oil analysis and MSDS sheets you'll find gobs of the stuff in the motorcycle oils they swear makes it slip. I have also heard the synthetic oil crap too. They started that up when most of the OEM's didn't have a synthetic on the shelf yet.

I hate to be the one to break the news, but Honda/Yamaha/Suzuki/Kawasaki/Polaris/Harley don't make friggin oil!!!
What they do is private labeling, and likely to the lowest bidder. So you may get Pennsoil for a while and Havoline next time around.


What I have decided overall is that I like 15w50 Mobil 1. I have had fantastic results with it in my Kawasaki. It only holds 1.25 qts. So I buy the 5 gallon jugs on sale and that's 4 oil changes right there. Cheap and good. When my EX is rebuilt I will break in on Rotella, probably 2 drains and then switch it to the 15w50 Mobil 1 also.


I've heard good things about Mobile as well.....as far as cars, my wife had a almost new Chrysler Sebring with over 170,000 miles before we sold it, ran perfect and always used full synthetic Mobile......but then again I have over 150,000 miles on my chevy Blazer with Penzoil non synthetic.

[2001400exrida]

be careful with mobil 1. there was a point in time when this stuff was jaso (wet clutch ) approved. It no longer is. I would not recommend running mobil 1 in a wet clutch application such as the 400ex.....as mentioned you need jaso ma oil.

[2001400exrida]

Only time I used rotella, I blew a motor. Looked it up and made by Pennzoil, Explained it all. I also don't fall for the synthetic is better BS, Its not going to do anything but cost you more money per oil change. If you change it often dino is just as good as any high dollar oil.


i agree the oil did not cause this. synthetic oils offer better protection for longer periods of time, so if you're looking to not change your oil as regularly you can go longer between changes with synthetic. Synthetic does have it's place and especially in extreme conditions with performance built motors.

[LxMxL97]

I think I read somewhere that synthetics dissipate heat better than conventional oil is there any truth to this?

[chronicsmoke]

I run rotella and change it every 3-4 hours and inspect filter.

I get it in 5 gal pails and it lasts me a summer.

[miller821]

Mark me down for Rotella. I run the T6 in my LTR and CBR and have had no problems at all.

I've always ran the 15-40 Rotella in my 400, but am debating on whether I want to switch or not.

[MtnEX]

be careful with mobil 1. there was a point in time when this stuff was jaso (wet clutch ) approved. It no longer is. I would not recommend running mobil 1 in a wet clutch application such as the 400ex.....as mentioned you need jaso ma oil.

That's what I am saying... JASO don't mean doo-doo...

These places have just quit paying for that certification even when they know the oils will pass. And even if they did not, many of those JASO certified oils are loaded with moly and things people swear make wet clutches slip.

I've ran the 15w50 Mobil 1 in my 450 which makes twice the power of my 400EX and also has been ran with a full manual clutch and also a Rekluse clutch set up to slip a bit too much. Been running it 6 years, no problem.

Rode and raced 4 years full manual, and 1 year on the same frictions in the Rekluse. Actually broke a friction disc is what finally made me change them. They were still in spec friction wise, they had just been hammered so many times it finally broke a finger off and broke the disc. I kept the leftover discs for an emergency. 6 years total use so far in the 450. Engine also has never been rebuilt and still has the same compression it did since the day the rings seated. Been open for things like fishing out fingers, still looks brand new inside.

99.9% of clutch problems fall into 3 categories...

1- your clutch was already wore slap out and would have started slipping this oil change if you put vegetable oil in the sump.

2- your new clutch had a QC issue or you had a break-in issue

3- you couldn't resist the temptation of cheap frictions

[2001400exrida]

rekluse suggests running rotella in all of their clutches. Don't get me wrong, mobil 1 syn is a great oil. I used to run it in my f4i, but once they lifted the jaso approval that means it's not suitable for wet clutches, i quit. Does that automatically mean you will have problems, no. But i do prefer to run a wet clutch approved oil in my machines. the friction modifiers are what you want to look out for mostly and of course the moly.

[KKiowaTJ]

Nascar runs mobile and wix and goes 180+mph, So will I. LMAO

I go by the ratings sometimes, Just like royal purple was good oil, But that's because they never submitted any samples to be tested. Now is just synthetic oil in a cool bottle.

I stay away from moly, Make sure its for a wet clutch application and change it often. That's about the best bet for any oil and motor, Change it often and the harder its used, The sooner the change. It really comes down to what you, The owner wants to buy and spend on oil. No real wrong answer unless using shipping oil and then, Its a 400, Most likely love it and run better lol.

[MtnEX]

rekluse suggests running rotella in all of their clutches. Don't get me wrong, mobil 1 syn is a great oil. I used to run it in my f4i, but once they lifted the jaso approval that means it's not suitable for wet clutches, i quit. Does that automatically mean you will have problems, no. But i do prefer to run a wet clutch approved oil in my machines. the friction modifiers are what you want to look out for mostly and of course the moly.

Look up some MSDS, product data sheets, oil analysis, etc... you really should.

I think you will be shocked what you see.

Last time I looked up 15w50 Mobil 1 and Mobil 1 4T motorcycle and Mobil 1 20w50 Motorcycle... what I saw was the 15w50 and 20w50 motorcycle were nearly identical... and the Mobil 1 4T motorcycle had quite a decline in zinc... which explains a couple of experiences I had with it failing in extreme high-shear spots like galding in the one-way clutch.


Anyways, it's good to look and compare to JASO certified oils. If you look at a lot of them you will find considerable amounts of friction modifiers that are rumored to cause clutch slip.

As far as Rotella... well they don't and won't pay for JASO certification. I don't blame them. And if people aren't bright enough to catch on let them pay the premium for JASO dino oil.... cause DUH... if it is certified to go in a tractor, it has to be wet clutch OK. Tractors have wet clutches and wet brakes for that matter.

In the end, the reason you want to run motorcycle oil or diesel oil or racing oil in a motorcycle/ATV engine has (to me) zero to do with JASO and everything to do with ZINC CONTENT. Zinc content is the reason you don't want to put car oil in your quad, and also the reason you will eventually probably have to start to watch diesel oils too. They cut the content down a bunch some time ago for API certifications, citing it had to be below a certain level because it was killing CAT converters! Nevermind this is your last line of defense against high pressure metal to metal contact.

Motorcycle, diesel and racing oils don't have to meet the new certification requirements on zinc content.

[MtnEX]

Nascar runs mobile and wix and goes 180+mph, So will I. LMAO

I go by the ratings sometimes, Just like royal purple was good oil, But that's because they never submitted any samples to be tested. Now is just synthetic oil in a cool bottle.

I stay away from moly, Make sure its for a wet clutch application and change it often. That's about the best bet for any oil and motor, Change it often and the harder its used, The sooner the change. It really comes down to what you, The owner wants to buy and spend on oil. No real wrong answer unless using shipping oil and then, Its a 400, Most likely love it and run better lol.

Right... my 400 loves the Rotella. So I switched the Kawi to it during break-in. What I kept running into was after a couple of hours it lost the absolute superb shifting with a nice positive click/snap. I would drain it and it was like water. So I tried the synthetic Rotella. I tried a few motorcycle oils and finally decided to just start going up on viscosity. I didn't really want to jump straight to a 20w50 so I researched a lot of oils that were for motorcycles and a lot that were odd viscosity and compared to 5w40, 10w40, 15w40 and 20w50. So then I tried the 15w50 Mobil 1 and was satisfied. I could ride all weekend on the stuff and feel no change.

I do change often in the Kawi, probably too often. Pretty much during service from the last time I rode it... rather it's a race or a day ride or a weekend ride. But it is nice if I am in a pinch for time, or forgot to pick stuff up when I used the last of it. I can go run again and not worry.

[2001400exrida]

As far as Rotella... well they don't and won't pay for JASO certification. I don't blame them. And if people aren't bright enough to catch on let them pay the premium for JASO dino oil.... cause DUH... if it is certified to go in a tractor, it has to be wet clutch OK. Tractors have wet clutches and wet brakes for that matter.


rotella is jaso certified for the exact reasons you explain it's very common in tractors. the zinc content of rotella has gone down several years ago.

royal purple is fine by my standards i've never had a reason to believe it's not a quality oil. I've seen kkiowa say it's a crappy oil a couple times, do you have any links to websites or any factual information i'd certainly love to learn about the flaws in this oil because i would probably stop running it. I've heard the same about amsoil being a crappy product. I've run it as well with no issues. But royal purple is 8/qt and amsoil is 12

rotella always goes in my clutch side, but i do run a synthetic in the motor, wehther it be amsoil, royal purple, or the hp4

[MtnEX]

That is new for Rotella because it wasn't for years. I have even called and spoken with them about it years ago.

I never knew they gave in and got the certification. They probably didn't. Probably self-test labeled.

There are also JASO diesel certifications! It might be high time to check the data sheets on Rotella and double check the content because this may be the diesel oil coming that I was alluding to before... with lower zinc content in the name of emissions. (STUPID).

Rotella runners really ought to check into this before pouring more into their quad/bike or their old hot rod car.

[2001400exrida]

i don't know if it has always been but Rotella is JASO ma certified. If i was home i'd snap a picture of the back of the bottle. I pay attention to what i pour in the clutch and for me it has to be JASO, now whether or not the actual jaso rating is the real deal or not is another question. Something tells me it's more of a label than anything, but it certainly does certify wet clutch application so it means something to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_Rotella_T

[MtnEX]

I see it on their website. That's not a certification from JASO (not that I care) just another one in their list of "spec ok" applications according to them. JASO certifications are a separate logo thing all together that they can't put on their bottles without paying the piper. Again, though, not that I care.

What concerns me after looking is the JASO DH-2 listing.... this may be the dang new lowered zinc/phosphorus content oil coming for diesel.

Better start checking for some data before you keep pouring it in... just sayin'....

Remember the poor hot rod owners of classic car engines eating cams and stuff when the new API stuff hit the shelves?

[2001400exrida]

the jaso rating on the shell bottle means that it meets the performance requirements of jaso. I suppose they could claim this without it being true but i'd guess they say it meets jaso because it actually does. either way i've had great success as many others have. but when it comes to the race 450 it's rotella in the clutch a good synthetic in the motor.

[MtnEX]

It always has... has to work OK in wet clutches or it could not be put in tractors.

The new JASO DH-2 thing is what needs looking into.

[400man]

has anybody ever tried putting lucas oil stabilizer (the thick, tacky oil that pours like molasas) in their 400? on the bottle its says its safe for wet clutches, and to only use a small percentage of the total capacity.

[CJM]

has anybody ever tried putting lucas oil stabilizer (the thick, tacky oil that pours like molasas) in their 400? on the bottle its says its safe for wet clutches, and to only use a small percentage of the total capacity.

Never put it in a bike/quad, but I use that stuff in my truck and our work trucks we put it in. I think it works for the money.

[400man]

yea i put it in my s10 and sonoma every oil change. seems like it helps my oil pressure stay up longer. i may have to try some in my 400. id guess the only bad part is it might make the clutch feel sticky when its cold? but it would really lube uep the topend

[KKiowaTJ]

I have mentioned it twice and here I didn't say bad, Just the same synthetic as mobil 1. Only reason I got away from it, You cant tell whats in it, The dark dye makes it hard so you have to strain it to see and send in a couple samples.
I don't claim its a 'bad' oil at all, If you have any reason to question it, Send in a couple samples next oil change. I just don't like the fact they push it like it 'does more' for a motor, When it does the same as mobil 1 and other synthetic's.
But as for anything outside of just an opinion, There are many people who are happy running it.

[KKiowaTJ]

has anybody ever tried putting lucas oil stabilizer (the thick, tacky oil that pours like molasas) in their 400? on the bottle its says its safe for wet clutches, and to only use a small percentage of the total capacity.


I do, But only add a Dixie cup, Not flush full, But around 4oz or so. I run it in all my stuff and have always had great results. It keeps the motors from dry start up and so far flawless results on my end using it auto or bike/quad.


Edit: To get in the tank the best with out the mess and stringy tacky crap, Go to a dollar store and buy a big flavor injector/turkey baster thing, Fill it to proper oz and stick the needle in the small hole. If you try a funnel, Unless you warm it up, It will make a mess with the small sump tank hole.

[MtnEX]

That is the sort of thing that drives me nuts with today's cars!... In the winter time...

They all call for really thin oil... like 5w20 for example. But then if you run it, they rattle like hell on cold start up in the morning.

That seems to come from 2 sources and it is hard to be sure which you are dealing with....

One is simply the or a lifter needing to pump up after sitting overnight.

The other scares the poo out of me... and that is the possibility that the oil is so thin it runs back down off everything like water sorta rather than clinging and so it sounds like hell on startup.

I remember when I was a kid my dad bought a car that was like that, and finally he got mad and started upping viscosity... and sure enough it stopped that mess of rattling on cold startup in the morning.

[KKiowaTJ]

Think that's bad, Next time you are at a parts store, Mobil 1 make 0w-20 for some Toyotas. Its as thin and sounds like a quart of $8 dollar water. But you have to use it in some of their motors. They have the tolerances so tight, That's the only oil that will lubricate. If you run thicker, It wont get pumped through the motor and melt down. But, For the owners who use it, They say it works fine and have up to 200k on some motors with minimal work done.

[GAZ-V-21]

Ive been using lucas 10w 40 semi synthetic motorcycle oil for 3 years and I love it.

[Crosshairs]

Oils are a personal choice for the most part...all of the oils mentioned in this thread are perfectly fine to use....
I run Amsoil 0W40 in my 400....and Amsoil 10W30 in the woman's 250....Ive never had any issues....Just use a quality oil and change it at the recommended interval and you should be fine.

[OZ-T]

Just went with synthetic, my quad really seems to like it. And I love the smoothness in shifting. Never had any clutch slippage yet, despite my Honda dealer telling me it would make them slip.

[MtnEX]

Yep... they are full of dukie... like selling you Honda dino juice at synthetic prices... lol...