The CVT world is under attack...WHY? Your thoughts...

[Logan #34's Dad]

I don't know if any of you noticed BUT the CVT machine has been seriously limited as to what classes they can be ran in.
The powers that be have decided to limit the age a rider can be while riding a CVT machine which eliminates it from a few classes.
NOW, they have decided that a CVT cannot be run in the Girls Sr. Class as well. See: http://atvmotocross.com/2014/01/16/competition-bulletin-2014-4

In my opinion this is all a step backwards. A CVT is a great platform to get into racing - as most of us began - with the advantage of building the machine little by little as your rider develops and ages. Not everyone (Most People) has the money to purchase a race machine outright BUT they can afford to buy parts as needed or as the budget allows for a CVT. I absolutely know that a top notch CVT is just as expensive as any 90 Mod but the difference is a CVT can be built over time whereas a 90 Mod cost a ton - used or new. NEW is just ridiculous!
I don't understand why they even messed with these rules...leave well enough alone. If it was not broke - don't fix it. If a parent wants to keep his rider on a CVT till he/she is 16 then that should be their prerogative. Not that I think that is a great idea but....

[heathmxracing]

My opinion is that there are a group of people out there that are concerened that CVT engines are starting to make their way into aftermarket chassis. There are already a few out there now. With the way the rules are now it's basically open as to what can be done. Just think about a 90cc 2-fast in a Roberts/JB/Cobra chassis with all of the super lightweight titianium parts everyone is running now.

[Logan #34's Dad]

I guess I understand that but why not just make the class a "shifter" class with a hand clutch then? Don't put an age limit on the CVT because someone feels that kids should be on shifters by the time they are 13.. leave the classes as they were... 90 Auto Sr, 90 CVT Sr... why limit the age?

[LT80]

Didn't they try some stupid mini rules in Texas? I heard that it almost ruined mini racing down there.
When we started racing it was a 12-15 90 limited class. Now they can't be 15 on a CVT?!?!
EXCUSE ME but I thought the sport was hurting and we need all the attendance we can get in any class.
Ya know, I got to thinking. In years past when the PG was doing their yearly rule changes, Rich Hetrick was always in the heat of things helping them make GOOD class decisions. I didn't hear anything like that this year.

[bone1980]

I think more so the cvt class is under attack by our own parts dealers.the price to maintain these things is crazy!! one example a $20 spring that cost dealers $3. they are playin the shi- out of us but we roll with it cuz the kids love it.WE ALL KNOW THIS BUT HAD A LET IT OUT. now back to your thread, yes your right I believe the CVT is very important to a young or even older but new rider. without cvt these kids [ most kids] would not learn good racing skills. I seen fresh racers get on shifters ''cuz cheaper to maintain'' and look lost on the track! forcing a kid to do this as these new rules are doing so in time I think u will see less kids at that gate or unfortunately more kids getting hurt.

[stevo7706]

Denying a kid a clutch lever is just WRONG. A teenager on a CVT warrants a full investigation by the Child Protection Service.

[Logan #34's Dad]

Denying a kid a clutch lever is just WRONG. A teenager on a CVT warrants a full investigation by the Child Protection Service.

Now that's funny right there...

[greenmachine70]

Denying a kid a clutch lever is just WRONG. A teenager on a CVT warrants a full investigation by the Child Protection Service.
Funny but true. Rediculous when the cvt rider is a foot taller than the announcer on the podium..and he just beat a track full of 8-10 yr olds. Cvt is way too expensive to race at nat level and especially in the rain/mud. It just gives a kid a crutch and holds them back in my opinion. How can an 8yr old dirtbike rider figure it out on a much faster machine but parents are afraid to let quad kid learn it?

[stevo7706]

I believe clutching a 2 stroke around a motocross track should be a MANDATORY experience for a young quad racer. A rite of passage, so to speak. Could be the most challenging,rewarding and fun time in their racing career....even if they don't win

[wickpan]

IF they were going to change class rules should have been done when 2014 class rules where first let out.Not 60 days before gate drop.As far as CVT My girl is a late starter in racing,yes they need to go to a shifter quad but rule changes at this time of year is bull"""""". In any class"

[LT80]

As far as the 12-15 girls ruling:::From the rule announcement:::: "Furthermore, as there are other classes available for Girls (12-15) to compete on CVTs, they will not be excluded from competition."
After reading that, what's the big deal? They can race in other classes.
Am I wrong in thinking that girls can (and should) race and compete with the boys?

I agree their perseption of rules, who to ask (dictate), and when to change is just plain wrong!!!

I think it should be MANDATORY that we all are rich and have money and time to waste on this sport. <EG> :D

[bone1980]

I haven't done any nat.races yet but im yet to see a kid over 12 on a cvt. this is going to be my son third year on a cvt he's 9 next year we'll be shifting.going back to what I said before if your kid is a late starter and at a older age the CVT is the only thing that's going to help them SAFELY to develop racing skills.

[ontargetracing]

well good thing I just bought a new 90cc cvt motor for this year.. complete bs...! and complete opposite of how things are here on the west coast. WORCS has done the same thing but with 90cc shifters.. they only allow them in the 250 classes... I am not sure where these organizations get the ideas but I would sure like to have a talk with them.. I remember when the apex mxr 85 and cobra rmc were the bikes to have in the production classes now everyone on a shifter is scared of a cvt.. Have a production and a mod class and run what you brung..! its not nascar and we don't need parity of manufactures... hell, drr and apex are the only ones who make a competitive production cvt and there are a few core company’s who support those classes only.. and now we just say F them...! great idea guys

[wickpan]

well said.It is funny that boys & girls can race then till there 15years old but just girls have to start shifting at 12yrs old.In the same boat,new quad and new motor
Casandra Warwick #120
Fly racing
Elka suspension
powermadd

[jay-r]

We have run the nationals for 2 years and the only thing that is consistent is crazy rule changes. Spend big $$ to build a competitive engine for one season and the next season a rule change right before season will make it worthless. I am so happy to be out of the quad world and onto bikes. FYI, girls 9 to 13 national class on bikes can only run 85cc shifters. If my 9 year old daughter can do it, I think 14 year old boys will be fine shifting quads. Lol. One big problem is that there is no such thing as a production race quad. Everyone is building race quads around classes, not classes around race quads. Totally backwards.

[stevo7706]

Rule changes always make some upset, but if it's true that the changes are an assault on CVTs, then so be it. IMHO,CVTs don't belong on a motocross track (beside the little ones). Shifting is a skill that's an integral part of the racing experience. Why would you NOT want to shift?

[asadad00]

Frankly I'm glad my 10 year old doesn't have to think about shifting while he is trying to clear a 50" double that time will come soon enough, for me its about safety first and I like cvt's I can rebuild it myself with no special tools in about an hour. Four stroke shifters are the way of the future but not glad about it, I theink ontargetracing is on it the shifters are scared of the performance of those little cvt's. We have a shifter quad and its not as reliable as our 2fast ends up costing more in the long run.

[rageatvsupermom]

First I want to say I mean no disrespect to anyone because we all have the rights to our opinions. With that being said I have a few opinions of my own.
From my views these past few years, the CVT's seems to be the quad that is pulled off the track the most with mechanical problems. This year was a wet year and guess who did the most complaining when it was wet...the CVT parents. It seems to me they can't race in all conditions so why would you want to continue to race something that can't handle
what mother nature throws at us? So my question is for all the CVT classes would it have been acceptable to just pull a name out of the hat for the National Champion in each of the classes?

I do not understand the logic that you have to spend 20,000 dollars on a quad to be competitive...do people do it...yes but that does not make the rider better. Some racers are just more talented regardless what they ride. Here locally there is more complaints and lost riders because of the cost and time to maintain a cvt. Yes there are the few who get lucky but there are very few of them. The argument that the cvt can be built up slowly makes no sense to me, you can build any quad up slowly for your budget. Why would anyone want to keep a kid on a cvt when the adult classes are all shifter's. I guess you could put a cvt in a bike and race it in the c class but why would you want to unless you were physically unable to shift/or use a clutch. The whole safety issue makes no sense...if you think racing a cvt is safe then I guess I need someone to break that down for me. Racing is not safe regardless of what you race so accept that now and save yourself the heartache.

I think that many who are in the position of having a say in the rule making are biased....they have a financial stake in racing so instead of what is best for the sport it is what
is best for their business. We are loosing options in what quads are manufactured and are considered production. We are left piecing together stuff that was not intended for the purpose it is used.

I honestly don't know the answer but as a parent I would want my kid off of a quad platform they can't grow up with and carry on into adult hood. To me that makes no sense.

[ontargetracing]

If a cvt breaks or can't handle the rain then so be it. Its my choice.. and SHOULD be my choice. I will build whatever I think is the most competitive bike for the class that we run and that my limited budget allows. NO ONE should be telling me my daughter can’t run a cvt bike in the girls class... but the boys still can.. I don’t think they should limit the variety quads that can race in a class. They all have their strong points and weak points. Heck, I saw a nearly stock raptor 125 do really well in the girls class at lorettas just because of the rain. If they made a cvt 450 would it be banned from the 450 class? Or would they have 450 shifter.. DRR's and APEX's are a production quad (well apex was). Why did the girls class change last year to 90 mod? because thats what a girl or two wanted.. not the ATVA.. Why did they make the last minute change to shifter only this year???? hmmmmm how much pull does JB have? sorry, that’s my conspiracy theory.. either way, I think its a class structure issue.. 90 mod should be just that a 90cc quad that is modified cvt, shifter, single speed, auto clutch whatever.. and constant class/rule changes is the stupidest thing I have seen.. lets limit the kids who can race some more... great way to grow the sport..!

[greenmachine70]

Rage Mom nailed it! Everything I wanted to say but not enough time to write it...lol
I will say this, when my son moved to a shifter I actually got to enjoy other races that day with him, instead of wrenching on the cvt, belts, springs, rollers, variators, gears, frames.....need I go on. ALso when the season was nearing the end and we were close to a championship in points, I was on my knees praying every lap it would make it through to the checkers not because I had a crappy engine but because we all know they just dont last long at WOT turning the knobby tires, these motors were meant to turn a 12" scooter street tire and only one not 2. Those little quads are not actually made to do what we do. The bad part in all of it is the big companies dont support the kids racing on quads at all. So its CVT also high dollar to race nat level or a high dollar custom mini JB, Fisher etc. or you need to be a fabricator or pay one to make a raptor into a mod with a bike motor but then you get beat by all the high dollar lightweight chromoly framed mods. Its a vicious cycle. When we raced minis they didnt have 2fast kits. I know these new kits are more reliable but still not reliable enough imho

[Logan #34's Dad]

The following classified add it and example of why the sport is dying or dead... I believe this is on the extreme level BUT give a call to one of the custom quad builders and get a price on a new one... Can you imagine a new family wanting to get into quad racing and they come across a classified add like this?
http://www.atvriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?506187-2011-jb-mod-for-sale
There is a place for CVT's.... It is the best platform to get started into racing. Most of us buy a DRR/Apex/Polaris/Eton/ and our kid rides around the yard, then we say, hey lets go check out this racing thing...and before we know it, we are sucked in this vortex of atv racing. We show up to a local race, see a built DRR and get smoked and our own competitive juices kick in and we start building lil Johnny's quad - SOME of us one part at a time. Once we get it up to racing standards and lil Johnny wins a few local races we venture to the closest National race. Lil Johnny - ON HIS CVT - does pretty good at the National race and then that family becomes one of the circus members following the National schedule. This family should not be mandated into buying one of the high dollar modified quads to keep coming. Let them choose when and IF they want to make that commitment.
And for those people that say a 15/16 year old that stays on a CVT is at a disadvantage or will never make it on a shifter....Check out Cory Powers 450 results... A couple National Championships later....
I say if the system was not broke / DON'T FIX IT!
Again, I believe our biggest problem and why the overall numbers are down is because quads are being outlawed at more and more local race tracks and organizations. And until the AMA/ATVA start addressing that issue...we will die.

[jay-r]

$16k. I am sure it costs more to build it than that. This is the problem. If you want to compete at the top level, you will have to line up against machines like this. $16k will buy you 4 to 6 new 85cc dirt bikes. A good rider can take a bone stock bike and win anywhere. When you decide to sell the bike, there are many more people that would consider a used $2500 bike. With a top level race quad like this, there are only 4 or 5 riders in the country that would consider buying it. We had fun racing quads. It just doesn't make sense anymore.

[JAG Motosports]

Its the $$$$$ and quads demand way to much of it. Since switching to bikes my life has gotten alot easier and cheaper.

[stevo7706]

You can buy a brand new 85cc dirtbike engine for around $1500 at your local dealership. If youth quads had classes similar to dirtbikes,that may be the only engine you would need between 7-15 yrs of age. ONLY PROBLEM is it comes with that PESKY clutch attached to it. What were they thinking!

[thequadfather+2]

"I honestly don't know the answer but as a parent I would want my kid off of a quad platform they can't grow up with and carry on into adult hood. To me that makes no sense."

I dont want to offend anyone either....with that being said I want to point out that we are not going to grow up on a quad, we're not going to ride a quad as an adult. Infact we are not going to ride beyond the CVT age limit. Our plan has never included a shifter, we don't have the desire to shift anything. We have been on CVT's since 2009 and will be on them until we are done. we have a dirt bike, they shift it just fine.

Actually, we enjoy riding CVT's. I didn't complain about any weather and we made ALL laps at Aonia and drove the quad back to our pit...I did see a bunch of 90 mods being towed off and they all looked like shifters to me. The statement that all the CVT parents complained about the weather is stretching it a little. Actually we made all the laps at Bowling Green and Loretta's too. Now I did complain about washing all the mud off. You guys seem like you think that everyone can't wait to get off CVT's or don't ride a shifter because they can't shift....seriously, it's not rocket science. I could probably teach a monkey to do it. If kids are riding shifters I assume its because they want to, I don't really have anything to say about that because it doesn't concern me since we don't ride them. In the end we ride CVT's because thats what we have always rode and we enjoy it, thats where we will be for a couple more years and then we'll watch from the stands....

[chunky0071]

"I honestly don't know the answer but as a parent I would want my kid off of a quad platform they can't grow up with and carry on into adult hood. To me that makes no sense."

I dont want to offend anyone either....with that being said I want to point out that we are not going to grow up on a quad, we're not going to ride a quad as an adult. Infact we are not going to ride beyond the CVT age limit. Our plan has never included a shifter, we don't have the desire to shift anything. We have been on CVT's since 2009 and will be on them until we are done. we have a dirt bike, they shift it just fine.

Actually, we enjoy riding CVT's. I didn't complain about any weather and we made ALL laps at Aonia and drove the quad back to our pit...I did see a bunch of 90 mods being towed off and they all looked like shifters to me. The statement that all the CVT parents complained about the weather is stretching it a little. Actually we made all the laps at Bowling Green and Loretta's too. Now I did complain about washing all the mud off. You guys seem like you think that everyone can't wait to get off CVT's or don't ride a shifter because they can't shift....seriously, it's not rocket science. I could probably teach a monkey to do it. If kids are riding shifters I assume its because they want to, I don't really have anything to say about that because it doesn't concern me since we don't ride them. In the end we ride CVT's because thats what we have always rode and we enjoy it, thats where we will be for a couple more years and then we'll watch from the stands....

I agree.
With that said yall are nuts. If a kid can ride and is capable of winning they will learn how to shift easly! Cvt's can't take the weather really you have never seen an XC race then! Our XC quad runs an hour plus no problems, mud, rain, and shine it goes. It's not the cvt it's the parent. Quit blaming cvt's and blame yourselfs. And yes our Malossi is moto capable any day of the week. My son has been on a cvt for 4 years but guess what he rides a 300ex every day but hey shifting was so hard to learn NOT! CVT's are not the problem they are however part of the answer with out them we all need to forget about our kids racing and teach them golf!

[stevo7706]

Oh,we're not NUTS!. I mean what parent would knowingly buy a clutchless, money draining, POS mini quad with nowhere to ride and only a handful of competitors to race against? The parents that migrate/quit to other less expensive, less fustrating, and WAYmore competitive sports like motocross or golf.....those are the NUTS!

[jungleboy213]

Let me throw my 2 cents in...
We rode cvt's for 3 years. In 2012 at Loretta's be bought a shifter. My boy was almost in tears because he couldn't even take off in first gear without killing it. Now, he wouldn't have it any other way. He loves his shifter.
CVT's are in fact a great base quad to start in. When we started, he had no clue about racing. Neither did I. He had to just worry about the gas, brakes and turning. I had to learn on what parts work and what didn't. I told him when I think he's ready to go faster, I'll make his bike faster. More expensive route? You bet. But, he learned that way.
Last winter, we were racing a shifter and a CVT at a local indoor series in 2 classes. As soon as he came off the track to win another championship on his Cvt, he looked at me and said he didn't want to ride this any more. That is when I knew it was time to focus on the shifter.After that, I liked going to the races and enjoyed the races. I wasn't wrenching on a cvt most of the time.
I think the cvt IS a good platform to start on, for the riders and the parents. Kids will learn basics of riding and parents will learn basics of turning a wrench.
Look, I know the chances are slim of my boy being the next John Natalie or Joel Hetrick, but the life lessons that he learns on the track and in the pits are why we do this every weekend. It makes him happy. When he's happy, we're happy.

[edwardsp&b]

Whew......that was a lot to read. A lot of good points all around.......Here is my take.

I have been through it all, and here is what I learned. A CVT is a great platform to start riding/racing on! When we first started all this mess, it was a local series with a good turnout. We had a built stock quad from the MAN Mr. Marc at Hotquads. The CVT enabled my son to learn how to race at an early age. It made him want to understand how to get better holeshots, get through turns faster, and how to go out and compete without worrying about just getting the bike off the gate or making it 5 laps without stalling. Yes we had mud races that we didn't make it through.......Ben has blown motors, busted cases and transmissions, and I cant count how many frames we broke.....Last count was 7, with me having to replace 3 frames. That is what made me realize that it was time to go to a better suspended quad. There has been comments made on here about these motors not made for these quads originally, but its not the motor that is the problem. When your son starts pounding big doubles and triples, a DRR or Apex frame cant take it. That is why we went on up to a mod.

Now, as far as the new rules on CVT's and age limits, I cant say which way the rules should go. I do think that if the sport is going to grow, they need to keep a limited or beginner class for CVT beginner riders up to around 13-14. They had this once a few years ago, but it only lasted one year. That blame goes on the rule makers. They announced the class at the end of December and after Lorrettas that August it was gone again. How does a class grow when it only stays for one year. If a parent wants to keep a kid on a CVT it should be there choice. But I think they should have made 90CVT age limit at 13, then move every 90 CVT or shifter into a 90 open class.

As a parent, I switched my son because he was bombing his CVT out on every jump and it was completely destroying the quads he was riding. I spent a ton of money on a JB mod, knowing that I could get my money back after he was done riding it. I felt better because I knew if he jumped anything it wouldn't break the quad in half when he landed. Was it expensive???? YES!!!! Most of us are in business for ourselves. (You almost have to be to follow the traveling circus) If customers are banging on your door waiting in line to purchase a custom quad you are making, you will jack the price up a little over time. That's supply and demand ladies in gentlemen...... I own the only transport refrigeration repair company within hundreds of miles of where we are. I charge a lot more for the parts I stock, and the repairs I do than a dealer in a big town like Atlanta. Can you blame JB racing, or others that are charging a normal persons yearly salary for a quad when the line is out the door wanting to buy them.....I would too!!!! Business owners ask yourself the same question........

Bryan

[stevo7706]

I share the same sentiments as others here, but let me ask. Since millions of kids ride/race dirtbikes without a CVT, would you think a CVT is the "best platform" or "answer" if ALL classes shifted? Would your race experience as a parent or rider be different if CVTs were not even allowed in quad racing?

[Logan #34's Dad]

I share the same sentiments as others here, but let me ask. Since millions of kids ride/race dirtbikes without a CVT, would you think a CVT is the "best platform" or "answer" if ALL classes shifted? Would your race experience as a parent or rider be different if CVTs were not even allowed in quad racing?

My point is, the "average" family cannot afford to get started in atv racing when/IF a new race quad is $15,000 dollars. There has to be an Entry Level machine to begin with....
The differance between bikes and quads is that you can buy a new dirtbike for under $4,000 that is race ready and a new race ready 90Mod is $20,000. When a new racer shows up at a National event and sees all the Renegades and 40' motorhomes with 30' trailers filled with brand new atv's for ONE little rider... thats pretty discouraging.
I truly believe that OUR Pro's on the track are NOT neccessarily the BEST riders in the world, they are the ones who were able to afford and sustain the costs of this sport. There are many many great riders that could not afford it and had to go to a real job to raise thier families...SAD.
ALL racing is about money but this YOUTH atv racing is on the extreme side. It's sad that I can buy a full on race 450 for alot less than I can a YOUTH race atv.
Bottom line...until the big atv companies build a Youth full race machine...Parent's will be stuck with the over priced mods. I wish there was a larger market for the machines so that someone would take the plans and have a machines mass produced and then the costs would come WAY down.

[Keith J]

I can't disagree with your last statement about not having a worthy base machine to start from. Matter of fact I can't disagree with anything in your whole statement there. It is completely ridiculous the amount of money these little machines cost.
However, I think you are missing a few things. No where does it say in the rules that you have to run a new quad(I know you realize this, just hear me out). I can find at least 3 90 mods on the first page on the classifieds here that with a little work, a minimal investment and the right rider, can be competitive at the nationals. All of them were under $8k. How much did you sell the mod bikes you built for? Were they competitive? A fully built top national level CVT 90 can reach $15k as well. If you want to race bad enough, you can find a deal or make something work. Also, there is no way you can go buy a stock motorcycle and win a stock class. There is stock, and there is "stock". Those quotation marks are significantly expensive.

I know of first hand a kid that was an absolute top tier cvt national rider that got beat at our local level by a local kid on a machine worth less than half of what the national kid was riding in the 14-17 yr old schoolboy class. The local kid had been shifting for a couple years and the national kid had not. The difference on the track was obvious just by listening to their bikes.
I agree with what was said about if you don't plan on moving the kids up into the shifter bikes and continue racing, then let them stay on a cvt until they can't ride them anymore. If your kid plans on racing until adulthood, the earlier you start them shifting the better. This is all just my opinion.

Also, one last thing. In our sport, any kid can show up at the big stage and race. I know, we did last year. We had no business in that field of riders. You can't do that in motorcycles. You have to be the "cream of the crop". You have to have the total package to win nationals, quad and rider. That is why it is nationals.


Personally I despise these CVT's. They do have their place though. There would be far fewer riders racing today without them.

[Logan #34's Dad]

I guess one of the issues is, the father that takes his child to the local motorcycle shop there is not a shiny new JB Mod or Robert's Mod sitting in the show room - THANK GOODNESS cause no one would race due to sticker shock! - There are the Polaris mini's, Yamaha's, Honda's, Kymco's, DRR's...ect. So, dad buys one of those and the "Ball" starts rolling.
I was forced to build my CanAm Mods due to financial reasons...I was able to piece it together as money allowed. I'd done anything to be able to drop the funds on a JB or Robert's... Logan would have done much better on the smaller machine but I just could not afford to buy him one. He still could race a mod this year but I got a deal on a 450 that I could not refuse so I'm moving him up. He has gained 25 pounds since last year and I know he'd been real hard to beat but that how it goes. I sold both CanAm's and used that money to buy 450's... NOW, BIG DADDY can race! Look out 30+C! LOL.

[rageatvsupermom]

I guess one of the issues is, the father that takes his child to the local motorcycle shop there is not a shiny new JB Mod or Robert's Mod sitting in the show room - THANK GOODNESS cause no one would race due to sticker shock! - There are the Polaris mini's, Yamaha's, Honda's, Kymco's, DRR's...ect. So, dad buys one of those and the "Ball" starts rolling.
I was forced to build my CanAm Mods due to financial reasons...I was able to piece it together as money allowed. I'd done anything to be able to drop the funds on a JB or Robert's... Logan would have done much better on the smaller machine but I just could not afford to buy him one. He still could race a mod this year but I got a deal on a 450 that I could not refuse so I'm moving him up. He has gained 25 pounds since last year and I know he'd been real hard to beat but that how it goes. I sold both CanAm's and used that money to buy 450's... NOW, BIG DADDY can race! Look out 30+C! LOL.

That is the problem for everyone, and it is going to get worse. Many of these companies if they have not already will soon stop producing quads for riders under the age of 16. This comes from our awesome government who believes they know what is better for us than we do. Quads have not been given a fair chance in my opinion. But that is another thread for another day.

I did not mean to offend anyone but honestly, there are more ways to skin a cat. I don't understand why more people do not try to find blaster frames or something comparable. No one said it had to be a jb/walsh mod frame. What was the frame you used? Was it not a ds450 frame? Did it cost you 15,000? I don't care to be told what I can and can't do either but at some point we all have to adapt. Keeping a kid on a cvt regardless if there is 5-10 kids who have made the transition to big bike easy, the majority have not. I don't know what the answer is but many people only see what they believe is best for them personally and not what is best for the whole group. I honestly did not think it was a bad thing but I don't have a kid on one and spent thousands of dollars trying to keep one together. Good luck to everyone and hope that our sport can turn around before it is too late.

[stevo7706]

I guess it does come down to what experience you want out of youth motorsports. Simple or complex. Less expensive or expensive. Fun or not so fun. Engaging both sides of the brain or one. And more. There is a reason why CVTs are not part of motocross racing and (almost) ALL of motorsports (I can only think of two others, scootering and snowmobiles). The future of this sport is dependent on what parents expect out of racing. Judging from what I read,hear and see, CVTs are a cancer in our sport.

[Logan #34's Dad]

"a cancer".... I completely disagree.
Most racers (younger generation) began on a CVT and without CVT's this sport would have been dead along time ago. Racers around Joel Hetrick's age and younger more than likely started on a CVT either locally or at Nationals. And the same system they came through is still in effect.
Dad's go to the local dealership and see a mini quad... usually a Honda, Polaris, Yamaha and some times a DRR or Apex...buy it for little Johnny...little Johnny starts going fast in the back yard, dad builds a ramp... Dad then takes lil Johnny to the local county fair race...then the ATV racing bug hits DAD and sometimes the kid...now they head to the local race series to give it a shot. Once there they see all the hopped up Drr's and Apex's and start pouring money into the machine he bought. Dad meets some of the best people in the world with the same sickness as him. Before he knows it..he has a ton of money into the machine...lil Johnny is winning locally so they choose to try a National on their hopped up CVT. Lil Logan - I mean Johnny! - does well at that National and now they join the National Circus. Run the CVT until it become clear that, now not so lil, Johnny needs to upgrade to a better machine. Then Dad has to try to justify to Momma why he needs to spend SO much money on an ATV for a sport with no future...avoids the divorce... and puts Johnny on a mod for a couple years and then Johnny is old enough for a full size atv and jump on a 450... then the ATV carousel is FINALLY over... GO HONDA TRX450r!
THEN looks back on it all and WISH lil Logan - I mean Johnny! - liked his PW50 more than that DRR!

[nitrofish]

My point is, the "average" family cannot afford to get started in atv racing when/IF a new race quad is $15,000 dollars. There has to be an Entry Level machine to begin with....
The differance between bikes and quads is that you can buy a new dirtbike for under $4,000 that is race ready and a new race ready 90Mod is $20,000. When a new racer shows up at a National event and sees all the Renegades and 40' motorhomes with 30' trailers filled with brand new atv's for ONE little rider... thats pretty discouraging.
I truly believe that OUR Pro's on the track are NOT neccessarily the BEST riders in the world, they are the ones who were able to afford and sustain the costs of this sport. There are many many great riders that could not afford it and had to go to a real job to raise thier families...SAD.
ALL racing is about money but this YOUTH atv racing is on the extreme side. It's sad that I can buy a full on race 450 for alot less than I can a YOUTH race atv.
Bottom line...until the big atv companies build a Youth full race machine...Parent's will be stuck with the over priced mods. I wish there was a larger market for the machines so that someone would take the plans and have a machines mass produced and then the costs would come WAY down.


I agree with the Rock. Dumping the training wheels this season, I should get to relax in between motos now.:)

[thequadfather+2]

we have enjoyed CVT's. If we started over and did it all again I would do t exactly the same way.

"Judging from what I read,hear and see, CVTs are a cancer in our sport." I'm with Rocky I disagree. I think the cancer of the sport are the ones who think their ideas and opinions should be the rule of law in the sport. To be honest if someone doesn't like CVT's then they can choose not to ride them. Worse than anything is when they don't even have one (have never owned one) but they offer opinions about CVT's all together. It's like bike trolls coming on an ATV forum and telling everyone why they hate quads and how they should be banned.

Its a small sport with low numbers and I fail to see the benefit of criticism from individuals that have never even rode in the class they are crying about.

[stevo7706]

There's no malice in my opinion(s) here on this forum. We all have our opinions on whatever subject and this forum is a way to exchange our thoughts and ideas about this sport. Baseless assumptions, prejudice and name calling deflect from exploring different ideas and points of view. If you strongly disagree with my OPINION that CVTs are cancer, then offer your intelligent reasons why you think otherwise. Maybe I can learn something.

[hensonfamfun]

There's no malice in my opinion(s) here on this forum. We all have our opinions on whatever subject and this forum is a way to exchange our thoughts and ideas about this sport. Baseless assumptions, prejudice and name calling deflect from exploring different ideas and points of view. If you strongly disagree with my OPINION that CVTs are cancer, then offer your intelligent reasons why you think otherwise. Maybe I can learn something.

Well I guess if you think a CVT is cancer then not really anything or anybody is going to say anything that will change your mind because that's a pretty strong statement. So I guess you mean that those of us that have CVT are a problem because that's what it sounds like to me. We just made the jump to shifting by choice by the way. Cvt's were a huge platform for us and allowed us to learn to ride. I would not have changed a thing.

[thequadfather+2]

if you read the thread you will see all kinds of people who have rode CVT's and, based on their experience, believe its a great way to go. I don't know what else you are wanting to learn. You are the one that declared CVT's a cancer to the entire sport so I think we are all waiting to hear an intelligent, rational reason how you came to your opinion. We have offered opinions based on experience which is probably the preferred method to offer up an opinion, not the only way but probably the best way. Most everyone gave their experience......what else is there?

[jake55]

the statement that gets me is, "were done! switching to bikes! selling our quads."
why???
you spent the money, have the quad, have the spare parts, why sell out? then why complain about how much money you lost? keep the dang thing and race it locally, heck, it's been stated several times that the base starts at the local track. bikes are cheaper to buy, so even for a working class guy it's not that big a deal to keep the quad and pick up a used dirt bike and race both at your local track. trust me, I'm not a rich man and have been able to keep a fleet of quads and bikes.
as far as cvt versus shifters, again, I paid for my cvt's and I'm gonna race them until we age out. I also run a shifter. yes, we all know at some point you have to shift, so it's not that big a deal to pick up a used shifter and race them both. again, I'm not a wealthy person. the wife and I both work and give up on things for our selves so as the kid can race.
racing of any kind aint cheap so stop griping about cost. heck, have you ever priced a top of the line BMX pedal bike? it will blow your mind.

and if you are a quitter, so be it, but no need to be a loud mouth and distract any possible new comers to our sport.
nothing worse than hearing, "we love it, but screw it, were out"
shut up and race or shut up and stay home, either way, unless your promoting the sport, just shut up.

and one last thing, for you guys who think you can switch to dirt bikes and lay around in the pits instead of working on cvt's. just wait, those little ktm's and cobra's are just as big a pain in the butt and will still cost you a bunch of money. been there done that.

[wickpan]

Well said just pick up a shifter but still going to run the cvt.Now lets go racing"

[LT80]

IMO, the cancer is the PG. That's promotors group OR politics group as it really is.
They are the ones that listen to only certain ppl to make the rules and classes. Thus unappropriat rule/class changes.
One guy shouldn't have a say in rules/classes cuz he may make money, but it's alright for another company to to do the same.
I hope that helps you understand that aspect of it Mr.Stevo.
"CVT's don't have a place in motocross". Huh? The lil KTM's/cobra/etc don't have a clutch yet are raced and a great starting point. Maybe not a exact CVT, but same thing IMO.
CVT's have a place because Joe the plumbers employee that lives in the trailer court could never start out on a shifter for cost reasons. They have no dealer options for a mod shifter, no idea they are even made. So they buy a CVT and starts the learning process with his/her child. Alot of kids work right beside their parents forming yet another family bond. The same happens with the ever popular wrench demanding mod quads.
I see no difference between CVT's and mods as far as maint. If you want your kid to race, you maintain, CVT or mod.

This shifting nonsence:: ok, 1996, my daughter is at Lorretta's waiting to beat up on the boys (in both motos) in the 90 limited class and she seen a 90 mod for sale. Seeins I refused to pay that kind of money to buy a mod, She went down to the guy with $100 and rented it for the weekend. She (never being on a shifter) jumped on and got 3rd place. No biggie shifting. Now if my frail lil girl can do it with no issues, surely others can too.

I'd like to thank the thequadfather+2 for his common sence reply's. Best of the bunch IMO.

I think the vast majority has spoken and CVT's will be around for a long time making kids smile.

[stevo7706]

I apologize for offending anyone with my choice of words. My comments were not meant for those who have a CVT, but the technology itself. I've just never experienced or heard, in any motorsport, the SOURCE of so many complaints and parents actually quitting, to be the transmission of a racing machine. My views probably will not change. I've learned the rewards may be great for some. I just hope the risk to our sport is less, that's all.

[CRBOGGAN]

If you look around at the track the dads you see thrashing on cvts after every moto still do the same when they swap to shifters. This is not for all but something for everyone to pay attention to lol. Now for my son and myself weekdays are for cleaning testing and maintaince weekends are for racing and fun. Yes some times stuff breaks lol that is part of racing. I have been around gocart drag and several other types of racing they are all the same. Last night at the races quadfather and myself talked about this. Our boys and Dawson pig started this about the same time then Henson came around if you think cvts are all work look at the records of theses 5 boys lots and lots of laps and very few DNF. But lots of fun and family time. We will never make a living at quad racing or any other type of racing but we will always be in some type of racing. Remember these are kids not grown men supporting family's have fun do what you want if you don't like it you have several options it's your call.

[jake55]

Well said just pick up a shifter but still going to run the cvt.Now lets go racing"
yes sir, race both, cvt and the shifter. have for a couple years now and will continue to do so. when we race local, we run the quads and the dirtbikes. it's not that big of a deal.

[wickpan]

no its not,she learned how to shift on sat and she is ready to race.

[oscarmayer]

I know everyone has thoughts and opinions, but I think this thread caused more harm than good. This thread did not help resolve an issue, nor did it help get word to any ruling organizations about what the parents truly want. In my humble opinion it caused lots of rifts between people in the same sport and that's very bad in my books.
Please everyone, remember we are all in this together. No mater if you run a CVT or not. We are a group of parents who's kids race and have fun together. the more that get emotional and leave the sport the harder it makes for race organizations to survive. So let's respect our fellow parent and lets keep politics out of racing. Lets just go out and let the kids ride and have some fun. After all, that is exactly why we all do it, and if that is not why you do it, your doing it wrong.....

see ya'll on the track and god bless.

[jake55]

I know everyone has thoughts and opinions, but I think this thread caused more harm than good. This thread did not help resolve an issue, nor did it help get word to any ruling organizations about what the parents truly want. In my humble opinion it caused lots of rifts between people in the same sport and that's very bad in my books.
Please everyone, remember we are all in this together. No mater if you run a CVT or not. We are a group of parents who's kids race and have fun together. the more that get emotional and leave the sport the harder it makes for race organizations to survive. So let's respect our fellow parent and lets keep politics out of racing. Lets just go out and let the kids ride and have some fun. After all, that is exactly why we all do it, and if that is not why you do it, your doing it wrong.....

see ya'll on the track and god bless.

that's what I was trying to say, you just said it nicer.

[bb49]

I'm dis-appointed in the ama. they changed girls class to no cvt hows this fair. my daughter rides a cvt along with my son were going to do some nationals. What am I going to tell her your a girl but can't ride with them because u don't have a 12,000 dollars quad. this is total bs

[bb49]

I guess all the dads were crying last year in the girls class when they got smoked by the cvt's

[Logan #34's Dad]

What everyone needs to do is make contact with whoever is making these decisions and voice your concerns. Problem is, no one know who that is or how to contact them.

[oscarmayer]

^ every racing organization has a website. if you log onto it and search for a "contact us" section you usually can email them or the site admin and let them know via email and in a polite, diplomatic way know your concerns with rule changes and request an official rebuttal to the last minute changes. if enough people do this in an organization, they usually will listen and consider the change. but the key is being polite, posing a good argument and "just the facts". opinions should stay out of this sort of debate as it tends to make race organizers uncomfortable.

[LT80]

I'm dis-appointed in the ama. they changed girls class to no cvt hows this fair. my daughter rides a cvt along with my son were going to do some nationals. What am I going to tell her your a girl but can't ride with them because u don't have a 12,000 dollars quad. this is total bs


OK, one more time, it's the Promotors group that makes the rule changes.
Other than that, I agree. :)

[Ride1Rob]

I haven't done any nat.races yet but im yet to see a kid over 12 on a cvt. this is going to be my son third year on a cvt he's 9 next year we'll be shifting.going back to what I said before if your kid is a late starter and at a older age the CVT is the only thing that's going to help them SAFELY to develop racing skills.
Strange how beginner dirtbike kids start racing at late ages and do just fine developing race skills. A CVT is nothing more than a crutch at any age above 7. When we were racing quads I only saw one rider in the whole state of Florida under 10 on a shifter. Now that we run bikes I see loads of 7 yr olds on shifters. Race skills are developed through proper training not being on a non shifting machine.

[Logan #34's Dad]

Strange how beginner dirtbike kids start racing at late ages and do just fine developing race skills. A CVT is nothing more than a crutch at any age above 7. When we were racing quads I only saw one rider in the whole state of Florida under 10 on a shifter. Now that we run bikes I see loads of 7 yr olds on shifters. Race skills are developed through proper training not being on a non shifting machine.


I agree with what your saying...however, My issue is, IF the ATVPG begins to demand that we have to ride a shifter.. the sport will completely die IMO. To get into a shifter the initial cost is very high. A parent can start with a lower cost CVT from the local dealer and get his rider introduced to racing on it...maybe build it as he goes until he believes his rider is ready for a modified machine.. that system has worked well so why mess with it.

As far as comparing bikes to quads...If the bike world had a CVT type system that ran how these current quad cvt's do...you can bet your butt they'd be on them. Also, bikes have the early progression of auto Cobra's to shifters...and IF your not on the shifter you'll get smoked SO you have to move to a shifter by design. Our system is a little different and it has worked so why mess with it... It's my opinion that the more they get rid of CVT's the more the sport will fail. I know that in my area...kids on CVT's are more common than kids on shifters. Dad's slowly build the CVT up as Junior's skill develops and because DAD wants to beat Lil Johnny...before ya know it, you have a ton of money in the CVT and want them on it as long as possible.

[LT80]

"Race skills are developed through proper training not being on a non shifting machine"
A correct statement for sure!

"A CVT is nothing more than a crutch at any age above 7".
A well needed crutch for the family man.

"I only saw one rider in the whole state of Florida under 10 on a shifter"
Makes ya think they do need CVT's eh.

"Now that we run bikes I see loads of 7 yr olds on shifters."
You're right, bikes have factory options for shifting bikes. Mini quads non. Well, except for the Yamaha 125.

[stevo7706]

I would imagine if the bike world wanted CVT's they would have CVT's. Doesn't seem like a major engineering feat to overcome. I guess the kids don't want CVT's, what do you think?

[josborn]

Just FYI, I have been getting a few parents asking about rekluse clutches for their kids 65cc bikes here in Ohio, meaning whether they are legal in the OMA (omxa.net). I know it's not the same as a cvt transmission setup, but I see vet guys getting real interested in these semi auto clutches for bikes, I think it will trickle down to the kids too. Maybe this would be middle ground?

[LT80]

I would imagine if the bike world wanted CVT's they would have CVT's. Doesn't seem like a major engineering feat to overcome. I guess the kids don't want CVT's, what do you think?

I don't think anyone ever asked a kid. It's all us parents fighting. The kids seem to be happy on anything. :)

[stevo7706]

I was thinking...we have talented mechanics installing every kind of engine into a quad, why not install a CVT into a dirtbike? It may be the biggest thing to hit the motocross scene since the monoshock. Picture a 2fast motocross bike among 40 shifter bikes at the starting gate. You may not finish the race and the bike would be the only one torn down between motos.......but getting that holeshot would be PRICELESS!

[Keith J]

The Ktm 50's are CVT.. They seem much more reliable than the quad cvt's..

More expensive, but more reliable..

[oscarmayer]

I will say that after talking to parents who own, have owned and race/raced CVTs here is my take on CVTs.
They are an ok starter platform. costs? They are just as expensive if not more than a shifter. when guys are required to spend $5-$6K on a engine just to be at a "national" competition level is crazy in my mind. you can get 2 shifter engines build to the hilt for that cost for the class you can run them, and they do not require rebuild every 2-4 competitions events. A stock cvt runs $2900+ for the starter 50cc bike, but trust me, that will NOT help much more past riding around a large field. to compete you'll spend another $2k minimum just to get going in a starter 50cc class and just to finish w/o breaking down. then the real costs start. I was told in their first year, not including cost of initial purchase and extras for competition, they spend another $3600 in parts and repairs on average for a first year rider with a new bike and just trying to stay running for the season. then you have the costs of competition, but I am leaving those out.

if you take a shifter like a raptor 125, that is $3400, change the shocks, exhaust, and tune the carb, and your at $3900-$4200 total start. that will be competitive in it's class to start and aside form changing the oil and plugs, will usually make it a season or two w/o too much trouble (baring crashes). So in the end, I have to admit being non-bias, I do not agree that CVTs are cheaper. They seem to cost nearly double a season at least in the starter low running class. if your rider is competitive and you demand the best, you can mortgage the home at that point (one guy claimed $85k for national racing in a year to stay in the top 3 spots for a full season). I know people who have upwards of $12k into a CVT. I know guys with a $8900 custom shifter than don't hardly spend another dime the whole season on anything except fluids, and basic wear and tear items. please understand, I respect CVT and think they have their place, but I personally do not agree with the statement of budget minded.

now here's some info I do not often disclose. We were sponsored by a Chinese ATV manufacturer. they made scooters and ATVs with the CVT engines, the same ran in the DDR and APEX bikes. They even had access to "performance parts" for them. Yes the same imported parts guys here spend hundreds on. Those parts cost a tiny fraction of what people pay for them. a clutch upgrade kit costs what? $250-$300? the factory sells them to a dealer for $50-$75 each kit. who's taking advantage? why is CVT so out of control? because people are not thinking and will spend the $. If everyone in CVT started saying I'm not paying that and started moving to shifters the CVT market would more than ever drop pricing to get you to come back. I do not agree with any place charging thousands on a motor.
Anyway, I am by no means trying to offend or start any sort of a debate. CVTs have their place, but I just want to make it clear, they are NOT cheaper.

[jake55]

$85K for top 3!!!!!!!!!
now that's funny right there. what's even funnier is that someone would believe that and go off and tell others.

[hensonfamfun]

Finished in top 3 on a cvt at nationals and did not spend anywhere close to that 85k is crazy. Must have had ten quads We have made the change to shifters and sold all our cvt stuff. Honestly not a ton of difference in cost to build engines. My experience is shifters have cost more. of course I bought mine from a Guy who is supposed to know what he is doing and he absolutely tore us a new one and have spent thousands to get it right. Oh and he is supposed to be reputable. Now back to the link. Cvt and shifters both have issues and in my opinion one is not better than the other. I can make these statements because we have done both. Biggest problem with people and having trouble with cvt is that they don't properly maintain them and it breaks when you don't. 3 years of cvt and had one race we didn't finish because of a bad torque spring. Btw we raced as hard and as much as anyone. We are going to stick with shifting but In my opinion there is not a ton of cost difference. My opinion.

[wickpan]

Ya all Cassy ask is it ready to race.She don't care cvt or shifter:)

[Keith J]

How much do you think the Mr. Ford spent on his CVT bikes and and all the travelling? I bet it is over $85k...

I don't think the guy was saying that you HAVE to spend $85K to run in the top three at nationals, just that you can..

[stevo7706]

Thanks for your insight Oscarmayer. Your observations align with our experience with CVTs. I'm sure many have spent near 6 figures for a SHORT rise to the top of this sport. Talent aside, the number of competitors makes it possible. Drop the cost of competing and the competition will increase. Until more kids are competing in quad racing, spending BIG money to compete against a small number of racers doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[edwardsp&b]

Thanks for your insight Oscarmayer. Your observations align with our experience with CVTs. I'm sure many have spent near 6 figures for a SHORT rise to the top of this sport. Talent aside, the number of competitors makes it possible. Drop the cost of competing and the competition will increase. Until more kids are competing in quad racing, spending BIG money to compete against a small number of racers doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

The high price on a CVT motor to build is because of all the extras you have to buy to make it work. You cant replace the cylinder, get port and polish work and case match work, without buying a PVL to make it work. Then, your running to many rpms to get it clutched right. So you have to go buy the overrange clutch system. Point is, to build a national caliber motor you have to put it all together at once. You cant piece a great running CVT motor together over time, or you will run yourself crazy.

Now, what if you have a kid that is one of the top national riders in his age group, but you have a great running stock cylinder motor.......I can tell you, after turn 1 he will be in the far back of the pack......Bottom line, racing costs money. Not being a dick, but this aint little league. You spoke of Mr Ford, what if your kid is just as fast as Mr Ford's, and you can afford to go out and buy the motor......Do you do it??? For most of us that's a yes!!!!!!

Also keep in mind, when Leo Decuzzi (last name not spelled right, but the guy that brought DRR's to the states) first brought them here they weren't thinking of racing, nor jumping 90 ft doubles.....These quads weren't designed to take the beating our kids are giving them....Yes they were designed a lot better than your kx 50s, or Honda 90's, but they still weren't designed to do what we are doing with them......Its going to tear up and its going to cost money....and lots of it.
A lot of these CVT guys developed these aftermarket parts on there own after seeing there own kids tear them up. Dad's coming up with designs like the slipper clutch, and slipper sprockets. It probably cost them a lot for just R&D, and getting them mass produced.....So should they charge a little more to cover their time....I would!

The last thing I want to mention is for you to go back and remember your high school economics class when they were discussing supply and demand. If I have 20 goats that I want to sell for 20 dollars a piece, but on the sale day, I have 100 people want to buy my goats, Im gonna raise the price.....Any business would!!! These guys are feeding and housing their families with the money they make off of these parts, what would you do?????

Oh and I believe that there has been more than 85k spent on just one race season.....Go ask Baird's daddy......He said one time that they had over 10,000 dollars worth of just titanium bolts for Lane's quads......at that rate 85k doesn't take long to get to!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bryan

[jake55]

really doesn't matter if an individual spent 8k or 180k. fact of the matter is this...... in 70cvt for 2013, the 44 and the 55 could have switched bikes and the results would have been the same. money or not, that 44 is just crazy fast, it's the rider more than the motor in my opinion.

[jay-r]

Keith J, Ktm 50s and cobra 50s are not cvts. They are single speeds. The single speeds work well on the little bikes. The same setup on a heavy mini quad requires more maintenance than on a bike that weighs less than half as much. There are less variables to tune than a cvt. But, quite limited by the single speed transmission vs Continuously Variable Transmision.

All forms of racing are expensive. The cost of the racing is only determined by the size of your bank account and level of addiction. Quad racing will always cost alot more than dirt bikes as long as there are no race ready production quads.

Money can't buy championships. But, there is a strong correlation in the mini quad world.

[stevo7706]

Damm!...$10,000 for a bag of bolts. How much were the NUTS!

[jay-r]

There is one extra zero in that figure. The Baird's put together a titanium bolt kit that is $1000 per quad. That is off the shelf bolts. There is alot of custom titanium work on their quads also.

[Keith J]

really doesn't matter if an individual spent 8k or 180k. fact of the matter is this...... in 70cvt for 2013, the 44 and the 55 could have switched bikes and the results would have been the same. money or not, that 44 is just crazy fast, it's the rider more than the motor in my opinion.

If you are referring to the 44 being the younger Ford kid, then yes, I completely agree, he is goofy fast..haha

All i was saying was that I can see how a person could spend $85K in a year competing at the national level. Especially if you had to have two different bikes..The Fords had at least 4...
I knew the Cobra's were SS motors, but I was mistaken about the little KTM's, thanks for the correction!

Money can get you out front for sure and make it easier to stay there. The kid matters a lot, but having more HP gives more of a margin for error in the riding.


I really don't know what the point is I am trying to make anymore....hahaha I finished my daughters bike!! well, close

[edwardsp&b]

really doesn't matter if an individual spent 8k or 180k. fact of the matter is this...... in 70cvt for 2013, the 44 and the 55 could have switched bikes and the results would have been the same. money or not, that 44 is just crazy fast, it's the rider more than the motor in my opinion.


I agree Rob. Im not talking trash about Ford. Make sure you understand that. I don't blame him for what he spends on his kids racing, if I had it like that I would do exactly the same.

I wasn't there the last year or so, but Ive ran against them and Bryce is an excellent rider. Bost is also an excellent rider who could hang with them with the right setup. And your son has turned into a great rider too. Jake has made tons of improvements when I saw yall last year from when yall first showed up to a National a few years back!!

BOTTOM LINE and the point I was trying to make earlier is this.......The holeshot is the most important part of the race. If you don't have your motor built to the hilt and jetting on the mark you will be a few lengths behind the leader and they will not be caught. Ive seen my son do it, Ive had Bassani do it to us more times than I can remember. Why did Bassani win all those races a few years back??? For one DJ was a great rider, and Don was an even better mechanic/tuner. If you don't have the motor to be really close to the front after turn one, the race is over.
Bryan

[jake55]

also keep in mind, at Balance last year, 70cvt moto 1, a so called "out dated" rt motor took second on the hole shot, I honestly believe that rider had it but lifted at the last second, again, it's rider more than motor. all the hp in the world will not help if the rider does not use it.

[hensonfamfun]

I agree Rob. Im not talking trash about Ford. Make sure you understand that. I don't blame him for what he spends on his kids racing, if I had it like that I would do exactly the same.

I wasn't there the last year or so, but Ive ran against them and Bryce is an excellent rider. Bost is also an excellent rider who could hang with them with the right setup. And your son has turned into a great rider too. Jake has made tons of improvements when I saw yall last year from when yall first showed up to a National a few years back!!

BOTTOM LINE and the point I was trying to make earlier is this.......The holeshot is the most important part of the race. If you don't have your motor built to the hilt and jetting on the mark you will be a few lengths behind the leader and they will not be caught. Ive seen my son do it, Ive had Bassani do it to us more times than I can remember. Why did Bassani win all those races a few years back??? For one DJ was a great rider, and Don was an even better mechanic/tuner. If you don't have the motor to be really close to the front after turn one, the race is over.
Bryan

Personally I'm tired of this internet talking and debate! Thanks Rocky for the thread!! Lets have this discussion in less than a month while the kids are running around playing with their buddies they haven't seen in 7 months, burgers are on the grill, quads are washed, cold one in hands, (yes plural) and the fragrance of racing fuel fills the air at Aonia!!! Man I miss it like a fat kid misses cake!!! First round on Visnic...........guess you need to budget for 86k now Visnic!!!!!

[jake55]

mr. Henson...............just cause I bring a very large cooler filled to the point the lid wont close tight, doesn't mean i'll share. I'm kinda stingy on some things.

[jake55]

Personally I'm tired of this internet talking and debate! Thanks Rocky for the thread!! Lets have this discussion in less than a month while the kids are running around playing with their buddies they haven't seen in 7 months, burgers are on the grill, quads are washed, cold one in hands, (yes plural) and the fragrance of racing fuel fills the air at Aonia!!! Man I miss it like a fat kid misses cake!!! First round on Visnic...........guess you need to budget for 86k now Visnic!!!!!

the more I think about this, Henson, your correct. first round is on me, no problem what so ever!!!!! i'll have my cooler at your trailer all weekend, that way everyone who comes over for you to wash their quad and fix them a big ol' burger can have something cold to drink while they wait, I figure the line will be as long as the line at sign up. thanks Henson.

[oscarmayer]

I never spoke of nor asked Mr. ford anything (I have no info or experience to offer him since he is way above my abilities financially ).He is a very nice gentleman and respects others. I highly respect the Fords. They have come a very long way in the racing scene and have made a lot of changes that I respect.

I spoke to a different parent that was from out of state (i cannot remember their name or I would mention it) a the pro challenge racing there. they were just finishing the season and estimated a $85-$87k spending yr. I was like Holy MOO!

so in short others spend tons too.

[LT80]

I think that we forget that there are many other venues for racing other than the rich ppl nationals.

I sucked a bunch of campers out at JB's last yr. I couln't believe it.
Monster motorhome pulling a monster trailer. Had to be 200k easy......50cc rider....:D

[chris p.]

lt80: EXACTLY !!!!! we used to show up with a 6x8 trailer and my old truck that looked more like a crop duster and feel out of place......until we fired up the quad and watch everyone's jaw hit the ground.it was a great feeling to watch my son finish ahead of the $$$$$ guys and go home with a 1st place trophy.just saying....lol

[Logan #34's Dad]

i'm sure many have spent near 6 figures for a short rise to the top of this sport. Talent aside, the number of competitors makes it possible. Drop the cost of competing and the competition will increase. Until more kids are competing in quad racing, spending big money to compete against a small number of racers doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

agreed!!!

[Logan #34's Dad]

1718107458
Personally I'm tired of this internet talking and debate! Thanks Rocky for the thread!! Lets have this discussion in less than a month while the kids are running around playing with their buddies they haven't seen in 7 months, burgers are on the grill, quads are washed, cold one in hands, (yes plural) and the fragrance of racing fuel fills the air at Aonia!!! Man I miss it like a fat kid misses cake!!! First round on Visnic...........guess you need to budget for 86k now Visnic!!!!!

Sorry Man, The forum was getting boring. LOL.
Did I mention that WE are ALL DONE with mini's? Wooo!

[ontargetracing]

lots of discussion about the pluses and minuses of CVTs.. but the single point is they should not be banned or have age limits. it is a type of transmission nothing more! same as a lot of cars, utv's, even 1000cc 4x4 quads. If someone chooses to run one they should be allowed to whether they finish in the front of the pack or the back. Oh and the ATVA promoters group should stop making stupid last minute rule changes based on bogus one sided information.

[oscarmayer]

I could not agree with that more sir! if someone wants to run CVT at 18 yrs old, let them. I think a class should be determined by engine size not transmission type. in a 50cc class ok, past that, NO.

[stevo7706]

I've often wondered why there isn't racing based on skill level. Quads have a unique position as a platform to adopt the best, successful ideas from 2wheel AND 4wheel motorsports. Bracket/time trial racing could easily solve many problems expressed about our sport. IMHO, "run what you brung", outlaw racing would bring renewed interest and excitement to quad racing (and maybe a spectator or two). Is skill level racing too far a stretch for quads?

[ontargetracing]

Hate to bring up this thread again... But how did that rule change work out for the girls class this year ? Maybe they should seriously reconsider changing the rules for the boys class next year.

[oscarmayer]

^ you are sooo mean! LOL

[Logan #34's Dad]

Hate to bring up this thread again... But how did that rule change work out for the girls class this year ? Maybe they should seriously reconsider changing the rules for the boys class next year.
Crap, its been so long... what was the rule change again?

[ontargetracing]

I know they were going to change the age limit on the CVT class.. cant remember exactly what it was either.. 12 I think. They also changed the girls class this year from "production" to shifter only. The #'s were terrible.

[LT80]

Crap, its been so long... what was the rule change again?


Tires on the ground except when jumping..something like that I think....:p

[jake55]

Tires on the ground except when jumping..something like that I think....:p

soooo, when rocky flipped upside down in front of you did you protest him!!!!!

[LT80]

Nah, Sometimes you just have to let it go..
I did see rocky drive past joe "cheatin" byrd and give him the thumbs up tho..Then later I hear him explain: joe, I tried ramming them off the track like you but it didn't work so well for me! What's your secret??