The XC Race Project

[MtnEX]

Well, I have decided to go ahead and start my 400EX XC Race Project.

I currently race a 450 and know I should probably go ahead and get a second one just like it to fill this position, but I don't know that it will ever happen, and I already have the 400EX.... and stuff for it is so much cheaper and there is so much more out there for sale for it, etc. And some of the pricey parts are already on it, and some of the more pricey parts I can actually get from or share with from my 450.

So my plan is... I am going to do a few things to it as a primer... and then transfer some stuff over to it, and go run some practice. Then make a final decision.... keep going or sell. It has been a while since I have rode it. So I'll be getting the pulse back this week and kinda go from there. Going will be slow, and budget will be tight.

Preliminary plans... (share opinions)

Suspension first!

Rear?... Thinking GT Thunder XC link and reworked stock rear shock? Need to check with Derisi too.
Front?... Fox Float X Evols or KFX450R front shocks reworked.
Swinger?... Stock?
Arms?... Gosh, I don't know. I don't have complaints but havent raced it. Also need to take some measurements.

Protection!

NEED a stabilizer
DG Nerfs & Pro Armor Pegs
Skids - PRM
Bumper - PRM... may do something different later
Grab bar - Gotta check my options there... Like PRM, Like the PRM Control... Like Marks Off Road. Dunno how they rig up though.

Wheels/Tires!

Hiper Tech 3's with a couple ring colors (4)
Black Aluminum Rims (8)
Raw aluminum Baja's (2)
Stock fronts (2)

Big ITP GNCC's ~ Small ITP GNCC's ~ Maxxis Razr & Razr2 ~ Holeshot HD's ~ Holeshot XC's

Frame!

Totally undecided on the frame. It is the darker gray color :ermm: Gotta decide rather to touch up, or clean and scuff real good and paint. No clue at all period yet on color if I do that. Silver close to engine color maybe, gunmetal, Hammered finish, white, blue.... or something crazy like lime green

Body!

Think I have decided to retain 99-07 Rear fender and seat setup for easy service. So keeping the stock red rear and recovering seat with a FX gripper seat cover. Keeping '00 side panels around but will likely at least switch to smooth. Keeping '00 Baja Bug Eye front clip. Might consider cutting down and installing 250R looking hood whatever that is called. But more likely might try to pick up an 05-07 front clip and a plain stock 450R hood (will 450R hood work?)

Power!

Really really undecided here. I really need to ride and also get into the motor to see what all is on the MUST list first. Also really need to balance cost, and the fact I am used to a built 450 now, and then try to build accordingly without just killing some of the things I like about the 400 motor in the process. (So really open to opinion here) Best feature is it is really hard to stall and is nowhere near as exhausting to ride hard.

CRF Cam Chain
New or manual tensioner???
New cam? Dont know what stage.
Wiseco piston of whatever bore size is needed, don't know what compression. VS ebay 416/426/440 cylinder/piston kits
Sparks key???
Not likely to mess with flywheel.
Won't mess with bottom end unless needed.
Any XR parts or gaskets good to put on the list?

Exhaust!
Yoshimura Full exhaust is staying. I think it may be good with the motor work.

[DragonGunner]

For XC I like +1 arms best, then stock...I ran +2 but even with rims that set in it still feels to wide. I love the +1.25 swinger alot better than stock, makes for a better ride for anything.

Go 11:1 compression with whatever you decide....I'm a fan of higher compression more than bigger bore....someone well be along to correct me, but been there done that...lol. Save the money from the big 440 kit and use it for a port job. Go bigger on cam, like a stage 2 hot cam.

[Longdong]

Rear grab bar, check out mud motorsports! Best grab bar on the market IMO

[MtnEX]

Rear grab bar, check out mud motorsports! Best grab bar on the market IMO

This one?

http://www.mudmotorsports.com/Mud-Motorsports-Mud-Motorsports-Drop-Grab-Bar---NEW-detail.htm?productid=-394505

How does that mount up to an EX? They don't have the removable grab bar like other quads.

[MtnEX]

For XC I like +1 arms best, then stock...I ran +2 but even with rims that set in it still feels to wide. I love the +1.25 swinger alot better than stock, makes for a better ride for anything.

Go 11:1 compression with whatever you decide....I'm a fan of higher compression more than bigger bore....someone well be along to correct me, but been there done that...lol. Save the money from the big 440 kit and use it for a port job. Go bigger on cam, like a stage 2 hot cam.

Yeah, I am trying to freshen up on the Sparks key and compression and octane requirement for this air cooled beast.

Me, I like my motors to be able to run on pump gas, but I feed them 110 when I race and try to run it all the time. I buy it local though and so I am not sure I want to commit to having to rebuild a motor if they take the 110 pump out, ya know?

So I need to look at what I can do on 93 and on 110.

Like if I need to stick to 10:1 and no key for 93 that is OK. But if I can run 11:1 with no key on 93 that is what I will likely do. Just keep in mind I will ride the guts out of the thing now in bad conditions... summer heat, mud, etc. If that key install ain't too bad and I can run the key and compression with the 110 that is how I will set up if all I have to do is go back with the key to run 93 if I had to.

All in all, I think about the studs too. I don't know how far I can go without needing those too.


I am leaning towards a bigger cam though for sure. I am sort of thinking that being I ride a 450 already I am still going to feel like the 400 has a lot of stall resistance and ability to lug, even with a big cam. And I do have that full exhaust.

I have ridden a stock one with a stage 1 cam and really good tune. It pulls hard enough to slip a new stock clutch with me on it, yet is still much less tiring to ride than a 450. BUT... I have to shift it a LOT was what I noticed. Had to downshift to stay in the meat for corner exits and stuff. So I am confusing myself a little there.

Anyways, despite what I don't know, what I do know power wise is that I want more power, and I want to retain the good hard to stall quality, and I want smooth stout power out of it rather than jerky fatiguing power, and I don't want to have to shift myself to death to keep it happy.

I also found myself all over the limiter a lot when winding it up. It's quite a transition 450-to-400 so I want to minimize that as much as possible. This whole idea of mine might not even work out for me... but I'd like to try it rather than assume it's too much change.

[Longdong]

This one?

http://www.mudmotorsports.com/Mud-Motorsports-Mud-Motorsports-Drop-Grab-Bar---NEW-detail.htm?productid=-394505

How does that mount up to an EX? They don't have the removable grab bar like other quads.

Yes that's it! You can mod your sub frame yourself or send it into mud and they will weld tabs on it for you. If it bends or breaks you just order the piece that need fixed. It's 5 pieces that bolt togather. Check there Facebook page out and they have pics of a 400ex sub frame. All of are xc quads are now prm front bumper and a mud grab bar.

[Longdong]

This one?

http://www.mudmotorsports.com/Mud-Motorsports-Mud-Motorsports-Drop-Grab-Bar---NEW-detail.htm?productid=-394505

How does that mount up to an EX? They don't have the removable grab bar like other quads.

Yes that's it! You can mod your sub frame yourself or send it into mud and they will weld tabs on it for you. If it bends or breaks you just order the piece that need fixed. It's 5 pieces that bolt togather. Check there Facebook page out and they have pics of a 400ex sub frame. All of are xc quads are now prm front bumper and a mud grab bar.

[jcs003]

best set-up on a budget.

high compression-will get alot more torque and improve acceleration

cam and valves to takes best advantage of the compression enhancement.

correct gearing for the trails

correct tires

GT thunder suspension set-up-HLS fronts with a revalve for an xc-link

beadlock tires

flex bars-fasst flex or atv fourplay flex bars

john

[MtnEX]

best set-up on a budget.

high compression-will get alot more torque and improve acceleration

cam and valves to takes best advantage of the compression enhancement.

correct gearing for the trails

correct tires

GT thunder suspension set-up-HLS fronts with a revalve for an xc-link

beadlock tires

flex bars-fasst flex or atv fourplay flex bars

john

What do you think on compression? 10:1 11:1... sparks key... I want to be able to run pump gas if I have to without tearing the motor down and reducing compression.

What do you think on cam? Stage 2, Stage 3, etc?

Which HLS shocks? Standard? Elite? Standard with add-on remote rezzie? I do have a line on some of these shocks.

What do you consider correct gearing? Mine is a 2000 and has 14/38 gearing that was on it when I got it. I have never tried any other gearing.

[beastlywarrior]

I would stick with the 11-1 no key and stage 2 hotcam

[MtnEX]

Will that run on 93 no question?

And if I added the key with it, would 110 be enough?

[Longdong]

Forget the key! I had no noticeable gain of any kind with it. The best thing you can done is suspension first. I would get the best shocks you can afford! Next a 450 carb... That will make a difference!

[MtnEX]

Forget the key! I had no noticeable gain of any kind with it. The best thing you can done is suspension first. I would get the best shocks you can afford! Next a 450 carb... That will make a difference! I am not sold on beadlocks...... I have seen a lot of beadlock rims fail this year at the races. I would save your money.

I already have plenty of tires and wheels luckily.

Yes, suspension is most important to me. On this quad though, I do want to rebuild it totally for piece of mind. So while I am in there I am going to spend a little on pumping up the motor. I DO NOT WANT TO RUIN IT THOUGH.

I am going to try a GT Thunder rear end I guess unless I happen across something else to go back there at a real good price.

Up front I have the GT Thunder/HLS option possibly. I know of a used set I may be able to get and send over to be freshened up. And I have KFX450R front shocks I can mod up for it. But I will likely run Fox Float X Evols on the front. I haven't decided about arms yet.

Surprised about the Sparks key. I am out of touch now... but remember reading a lot of reviews on it being nice. Maybe just on a stock bike?

[HondaRacing83]

For the swingarm i would do a stock 06+ 450 conversion its longer. Stick to the stock bug eye front plastics. I love them so much done up right like more than a 450 and i ride a 450. Before my 450 i had a 05 400ex with a maier 450r hood and still would have rather had the bugeyed. I love a good done up older 400ex

[HondaRacing83]

Post some pics of the 400 now

[MtnEX]

Does the 06 R swinger use the same carrier and axle, etc?

My axle bearings were out so I just bought stuff to fix that... lol.

How much longer? I am thinking Ed used that on the Teixiera Tech build?

I have always looked at it and thought it could use a longer swinger. But I never did fool with it. I didn't really know if I would also need +forward arms along with it too?


I don't have any pics of it right now. It would probably break the camera... lol. It did look like my avatar pic when I spiffed it up last. It's all torn apart now.

For sure keeping the plastics I have now no matter what and won't be messing with them any unless I get nicer ones just like them. Really like the plastics and the headlights a lot. I would even race them too. I have a set of those cool Nac's Racing headlight covers... if I can figure out where I stashed them last... ugg...

[HondaRacing83]

I think its an inch and a quarter longer. But yeah i miss my 400ex lol

[jcs003]

11:1 or higher and a stage 2 cam. race gas is worth it.

the HLS shocks you get depends on your budget. you just got to call GT thunder and discuss everything with lazarus.

john

[DragonGunner]

What do you think on compression? 10:1 11:1... sparks key... I want to be able to run pump gas if I have to without tearing the motor down and reducing compression.

What do you think on cam? Stage 2, Stage 3, etc?

Which HLS shocks? Standard? Elite? Standard with add-on remote rezzie? I do have a line on some of these shocks.

What do you consider correct gearing? Mine is a 2000 and has 14/38 gearing that was on it when I got it. I have never tried any other gearing.


I use to run a sparks key...helps in stock motor....Sparks will tell ya don't run with high compression. 93 octane well work with 11:1 stage 3 is more for drag, stick with stage 2, I run a 99' EX....I run the 14 tooth front, only in very slow tight woods, or for extreme hill climbing. For XC type I'll run either 15 or even 16 depending on track and tires I use....step up to the 15, you will see a BIG difference, for one you won't be shifting as much.

[400man]

yea im not a fan of the degree keys. I tried one and didn't tell any difference, and plus to me it seemed less "reliable" cause the way its designed. to me it looked like it could shear easier than a stock key. I don't have proof of that, just something that made me think when I was looking at it one day.

on gearing, id stay with a 14 tooth front, enless you plan on going 50-60+ a lot then id stay 15t. and something to think about on your rear sprocket, when your spinning and sliding around in the woods, if you got a smaller rear sprocket, like a 36t, you will loose a lil bottom end but have more wheel speed, good for climbing long steep rutted hills, where you just hold it wide open and feather the clutch. if you got a big back sprocket like a 38-39t, you will have more torque and low and, but noticeable less wheel speed when spinning.

Brakes. I noticed no one mentioned this yet......use yfz450 front calipers. they bolt on with no mods, are dual piston and the pads last way longer, and th stopping power is night and day difference, even with stock lines. The rear id upgrade to Honda 450r brakes, that's the caliper, rotor/hub, stay, etc.. you get better ground clearance because of the smaller rotor, which will help if you decide to use a sprocket/rotor guard setup instead of a skidplate, and the design of the caliper makes changing brake pads way easier than with the 400ex caliper.

[DragonGunner]

Good info 400man. I have a 36,37, 38 and 39 rear tooth. I have ran the 39 rear for the tight swampy XC races and works great, cuts down on wheel spin, but lose a little top end. The problem I don't like the 36 and 37 is that you get better top end, but wheel spin is terriable in the woods if its wet. You can't find traction and you might as well be on a 2-stroke, in wet condition I couldn't keep up with the 2 strokes, put the 38 back on and while they are spinning in the corners I'm already hooked up and gone. Also with a different rear sprocket you going to get another chain length most likely.

[MtnEX]

OK, sparks key out!

I guess I will do 11:1 and stage 2 on the cam. Any starting issues with this setup as XC is dead engine starts. I can tune these things to start scary fast which is a bonus sometimes.

400man I am thinking you got the 400 with the Shamrocks and full flight arms? What width arms are they? How are you sitting on width?

As far as gearing I can play around with that a little. I am going to put a chain and sprocket kit on the list for it. That will probably come with stock sizes. But I have a 38t and a 39t I think will fit it too. I will see what the kit comes with and collect up some sprockets and play with gearing. I am going to drill out my Kawasaki to use the Honda size too so I can mess with it on both some. I have also found that I like different gearing racing than trail riding on the Kawasaki. So it will likely be the same on the Honda, plus I will be changing the power on the thing to, so...

[MtnEX]

I will be taking my motor down for inspection and checking on price and turn around on boring if it needs it before making any decisions.

But again, I wanted to bring up the ebay kits. I get good deals on pistons so I probably wouldn't do one. But all things considered, what is wrong with going with one of those kits with say a Wiseco piston, along with a bolt on cylinder and gaskets? I am pretty sure I have seen them in a few different compression options and in 400, 416, 426 and 440cc.

[400man]

Im running the Alba a-arms, the are +2's and have a curved bottom arm for extra clearance, and a bracket that lets you run either standard or long travel. and yea I got the douglas 4:1 beadlocks (shamrock style). Ive never measured it really, but the width changes with your suspension travel when your accelerating and braking hard. I can measure it tomorrow if you want? with the front end up high and squished down low. the few races ive done I have not had any problems with being too wide, although when the trails got pretty tight I did have to watch myself.

heres the latest pics of mine that I have on my computer.

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/ky2stroker/Photo12041312_1_zpsf3f71cae.jpg (http://s417.photobucket.com/user/ky2stroker/media/Photo12041312_1_zpsf3f71cae.jpg.html)


http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/ky2stroker/Photo12041313_zps2e4d6b02.jpg (http://s417.photobucket.com/user/ky2stroker/media/Photo12041313_zps2e4d6b02.jpg.html)

[MtnEX]

Yes SIR! Measurements would be great on those particular arms. And how they have been durability wise. Been eyeballing them and they seem like a no-brainer in a way as someone is finally offering some OPTIONS on the arms. Not adjustable yet, but at least an A/B choice on shock lengths and more if you make your own bracket!

A sitting there measurement would be great, and if you can get one where they are sorta widest that would be good too.

How have those nerfs been too? I am looking at what I believe is the same thing but has net heels. I don't "need" them but they are something I am looking at. I don't think my foot can get pulled back into the tire on mine but it can and has bumped the tire before, which is a shock of a surprise... lol.

[MtnEX]

Went out and froze my butt off a bit to check a few things.

This gave me my first taste of discouragement really. Should tear it all the way down to the bare frame. Dread that swinger pivot bolt. I bet there is zero chance it is not stuck because I didn't know it was an issue until the quad was already 8 years old. So adding that to the list.

Also adding frame clean up and a new color. I have that really minor surface rust here and there and I have the old dark gray frame anyways. Not sure what I am doing there. Don't know if I will clean and scuff the whole thing, spray with rust converter for good measure, then paint it new color. Or if I can find someone to blast and powder coat it. I have no idea what that kind of thing usually costs? Guess it comes down to a lot of work and lesser cost and finish quality vs less work and greater cost and greater finish quality.

I also did measure my stock front end and sadly my memory serves me well. It is narrower than the rear. I think it is maybe 44" at most with stock wheels and ITP XC's. I didn't check to see if the stock wheels are 3+2 or 4+1.5 like the Kawi. I am surprised I had no big complaints with this but then I never raced it. I don't know that the GT Thunder ball joint kits can add any width, so I guess I need to add arms to the list for certain.

[400man]

aite, mine measured about 47 inches at the very bottom/outside of the tire, the widest part. this is at normal stance with sag in the shocks. I stood on the bumper and it stayed the same, maybe a half inch wider. then I pulled the front end up to get the shocks full extended, and it measured about 46 inches at the bottom. this is the alba +2 arms and elka stage 2 shocks with douglas 4:1 wheels and gbc xrex 21inch tires.

I measured my stock/spare bike with stock arms and wheels and HLS dual rate shocks and 23 inch xrex tires, and it measured the same way, it had 45 inches at the widest point, and 43 inches with the front end up high.

I know some guys who use who race, that when they get to a tight spot they get on the gas hard and lean back to get the front end high to narrow up the stance and sorta "squeeze" through it lol.

[400man]

I washed my bikes yesterday while it was 50 degrees outside, its done dropped to -1 outside this morning :eek2:
just to give an idea on the measurements and comparisions. I measured my tires too. both fronts gbc xrex, rears are pretty worn itp 21 inch gncc holeshots and maxxis razr XC's (20 inch). XC's measure 19 inches and the gncc's are about 20 inches. the front 21's measure 20 inches and the 23 inch tires measure a lil over 22 inches.

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/ky2stroker/Photo01051336_zpsb4611080.jpg (http://s417.photobucket.com/user/ky2stroker/media/Photo01051336_zpsb4611080.jpg.html)

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/ky2stroker/Photo01051340_zpse678358d.jpg (http://s417.photobucket.com/user/ky2stroker/media/Photo01051340_zpse678358d.jpg.html)

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/ky2stroker/Photo01051341_zpsf9809e4d.jpg (http://s417.photobucket.com/user/ky2stroker/media/Photo01051341_zpsf9809e4d.jpg.html)

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/ky2stroker/Photo01051337_zps8a2ce17e.jpg (http://s417.photobucket.com/user/ky2stroker/media/Photo01051337_zps8a2ce17e.jpg.html)

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/ky2stroker/Photo01051338_zps5ec0c4af.jpg (http://s417.photobucket.com/user/ky2stroker/media/Photo01051338_zps5ec0c4af.jpg.html)

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/ky2stroker/Photo01051336_1_zpsf3617cac.jpg (http://s417.photobucket.com/user/ky2stroker/media/Photo01051336_1_zpsf3617cac.jpg.html)

[MtnEX]

Thanks a lot... helps a bunch.

I was figuring about 44" static stock... +2 +2 so 48" static with arms, -1 -1 for your wheels, so 46". But you are 47" static.

Maybe these stock Honda wheels are also the 4+1.5 offset too?

[MtnEX]

Here's another thought I had.

I don't no way need it. But I am thinking about adding a Clarke tank to the list because I have always wanted one. Seems like it would be nice being it replaces the side panels and all.

Only negative I can dream up is that I am thinking there have been times I fiddled with things and just took the left side panel off to get at things. Carb/fuel line related I am thinking.

I guess it also nixes going to aftermarket 1-piece plastics which would also be nice for no split and no split in the graphics. But I don't know that I am likely to buy those.

[MtnEX]

For the swingarm i would do a stock 06+ 450 conversion its longer. Stick to the stock bug eye front plastics. I love them so much done up right like more than a 450 and i ride a 450. Before my 450 i had a 05 400ex with a maier 450r hood and still would have rather had the bugeyed. I love a good done up older 400ex

OK... going to hit you up again on what is needed on the 06+ 450R swinger deal... and also anything you know on suspension setup for that.

And do you have a pic of yours with the 450R hood.
I will for sure be running bug-eye for a while but may pick up the clip and a stock R hood?

[HondaRacing83]

I ran a 450r maier hood on my 05.
http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a488/brandonsmith789/null_zps5d632a07.jpg (http://s1280.photobucket.com/user/brandonsmith789/media/null_zps5d632a07.jpg.html)
I dont know much about the swinger conversion i never did it i think you just need swingarm axle and carrier

[ben300]

I ran a 450r maier hood on my 05.
I dont know much about the swinger conversion i never did it i think you just need swingarm axle and carrier


i believe you also need the 450r rear brake as well. dont quote me, but i believe you would.

to get the suspension correct on that, your gonna need to find the compressed length of the shock wiht teh frame sitting on 2x4" so that the shock builder can built the correct lenghth shock. theres lots of information on this on this site, just search for it. i believe chronic smoke is in the process of doing this to his 400.


honestly, i think the 450 swinger is uneeded and is an uneeded expense. just set your rear shock off to a reputable builder and get their recommended xc link (whether it be gtt or derisi or what ever), and the bike will handle 100000000000x better than it originally did.

if you look at the guys in the past that have ran 400's in the sport 15+ class at GNCC and have won and been very successful (garon davis, colton white, michael spalding, marshall goings, dan dayak), they all use stock swinger with either a stock (revalved/resprung) shock with after market link, or after market shock with after market link.

[400man]

i believe you also need the 450r rear brake as well. dont quote me, but i believe you would.

to get the suspension correct on that, your gonna need to find the compressed length of the shock wiht teh frame sitting on 2x4" so that the shock builder can built the correct lenghth shock. theres lots of information on this on this site, just search for it. i believe chronic smoke is in the process of doing this to his 400.


honestly, i think the 450 swinger is uneeded and is an uneeded expense. just set your rear shock off to a reputable builder and get their recommended xc link (whether it be gtt or derisi or what ever), and the bike will handle 100000000000x better than it originally did.

if you look at the guys in the past that have ran 400's in the sport 15+ class at GNCC and have won and been very successful (garon davis, colton white, michael spalding, marshall goings, dan dayak), they all use stock swinger with either a stock (revalved/resprung) shock with after market link, or after market shock with after market link.


I didn't know derisi had a linkage for the 400ex. I never been on their site, so I just now look it up, and I found one for the 450r, and it looks just like the gt thunder linkage, is it exactly the same?

[chronicsmoke]

Im tuned in for this one MtnEX! Looks like it's going to be sick when it's done.

I agree with ben300 about the swingarm, Unless you have the complete setup already on hand, a simple rebuild to the GT linkage is what I would do. The problem with the 06+ swinger is that the linkage and shock will be different so even if you wanted to use the stock 450r linkage, you would have to have the shock built for it as the shock mounting location on the frame is different, no stock honda shock would match those specs and the builders don't have these specs in their files from my experience.

Now would the 06+ swetup be worth it? Maybe but it will be quite a bit more money. I think with a GTT 06+ link or even an LT 06+ 450 linkage say (DC6) would be amazing if you did the leg work to get the and got the measurements for it.

I haven't sent my shocks in to Stadium yet i've been too busy snowboarding since the snow started flying haha but when I do I'll send you some updates on how mine turns out. I'm pretty pumped to try a 450r LT setup on the 400

You can make any 450r hood fit the ex with some creativity.. I put this on my bug eyed 400 before buying a 1 piece front fender
http://imageshack.us/a/img6/8979/pddp.jpg

[MtnEX]

Santo is a friend of mine. The guys at Derisi do amazing stuff for the 450R's. That much I can assure you. Had I known I was going to end up racing, I never would have gotten the Kawasaki 450R. I would have just gotten a second 400EX or sold and got two TRX450R's.

I'll text him and see if he even fools with links and stuff for the 400EX anymore or wants to. I know he's done tons of them in the past and still reworks shocks for them when someone asks. I just assume the bulk of his business is 450's now. If he ain't too too busy I will see if he has done any conversions on the swingers to have all that figured out.

Wish I had a 450R around for a day to see what the arm differences are to see how in depth the changes would be if I asked him to have some of his arms build for my 400. Probably more trouble and expense than it is worth.

[MtnEX]

Well a new idea has been born in this brain of mine tonight...

Since this is and old quad coming to a new age, it's sort of a throw back retro and an update at the same time. So I am thinking of trying to implement some simple something from each of the Honda race quads. Even if it is something as minor as a rip-off replica sort of thing in my graphics, to old school style bolt-ons I have, to literal part swaps like say the swinger, etc etc. Most likely thinks that won't cause a lot of headache or expense.

I have some pretty sick ideas brewing already...

[MtnEX]

He fellas... I for sure need to do something on my seat latch situation.

The round rod on the frame latch is way wore down so I need to replace that piece or have someone weld me a new rod on it to latch to.

However, there is one thing that has me a little concerned. This bolt here on the body side of the latch is missing because I believe it is stripped out. It seems like I thought I just lost a bolt and found out I was wrong. Don't remember for certain.

Anyways is this going to be an issue? If so, what will I need new? Don't know if it is a nut of some sort embedded in the rear plastic or in the rear of the seat pan or what.

1718106832

[Stickman400]

There is little brass inserts that go in the plastic that isolate that bolt that holds that plate down, but it really isn't a big deal if you lose it. I ran my seat without that bolt for quite some time because it wouldn't clear my airbox mount for custom purposes, never had an issue. If you really want I think I have some extra inserts and bolts for that in a bag out in my shop because I bought an entire assembly off ebay for mine when my latch got worn down also. I could send them to you for the price it would be to ship it. Lmk.

[MtnEX]

OK, I will hit you up when I get to that point messing with it if it looks like it is going to be an issue.

I am starting to think that I may end up wanting to leave the latch wear instead of having it fixed or replacing and use the first notch and raise up my seat and plastic so I can retain my darn air box lid after the lift for the GT Thunder XC link. IDK...

All the planning before doing is turning out not to be so bad actually as I am not finding these things out after the fact.

[MtnEX]

What am I missing???

What is the "draw" to convert to 450R front shocks????

Costs $400-470 to revalve, respring, machine, etc.... and you gotta buy a pair of 450R shocks to send? From the looks of ebay, every 450R owner is well aware 400EX owners will buy up their shocks so they are pricey for the pair.

Through GT Thunder it looks like $740 + cost of R shocks to revalve, respring and add a link for OEM Honda shocks... or $200 more than that through Jet.

I know that is cheaper than new aftermarket shocks. But if you shop around some it is kind of hard to accept as there are some deals out there... and there is quite a bit of used aftermarket out there you can buy and service up. So I am kinda stumped?

[MtnEX]

What am I missing???

What is the "draw" to convert to 450R front shocks????

Costs $400-470 to revalve, respring, machine, etc.... and you gotta buy a pair of 450R shocks to send? From the looks of ebay, every 450R owner is well aware 400EX owners will buy up their shocks so they are pricey for the pair.

Through GT Thunder (to do all 3) it looks like $740 + cost of R shocks to revalve, respring and add a link for OEM Honda shocks... or $200 more than that through Jet.

I know that is cheaper than new aftermarket shocks. But if you shop around some it is kind of hard to accept as there are some deals out there... and there is quite a bit of used aftermarket out there you can buy and service up. So I am kinda stumped?

[Stickman400]

It's mainly for the savings in cost. But after you do that do your 450 shocks, your have an aftermarket pair of shocks. They do the same thing any aftermarket pair would, at a much lower cost. You're not really paying for special metals and designs when you buy an aftermarket pair of shocks (some you are, but you aren't gaining what the price is worth), you're mainly paying for a name after a certain point, there isn't a whole lot you can do with such a basic design as a coil-over shock on an atv. Also, I went out to my shop today and found those seat latch parts. Turns out I don't have those brass inserts, I guess it didn't come with them, but I do have the bolts and both brand new plates. So If you want them when you get to that point I'm more than willing to ship them to ya.

[MtnEX]

Thanks! Mine are wore slap out.

[Blodg]

The reason so many do the 450R shock conversation is because they work absolutely fantastic and you get a fully adjustable shock at a fraction of the cost of buying aftermarket.

[2001400exrida]

I don't see many guys putting rebuild 450 shocks on their 400's. Most of what i see are people just putting the oem 450r fronts on the 400's. If you're going to do suspension, i would look for a good used set from a 400 or find some aftermarket. The price of purchasing 450 shocks and then having them fully serviced is going to be very close to what you would pay for a new aftermarket set and you can find the used ones very reasonably priced.

the stock honda 450 shocks are a very good template shock that can be setup to almost any style and preference of riding, which makes them popular and therefore is the reason the price on them stays around $150-$200 for a good used set.

ultimately it's up to you but as you mentioned if you look around you can definitely find some good priced used front shocks.

[400man]

I don't see many guys putting rebuild 450 shocks on their 400's. Most of what i see are people just putting the oem 450r fronts on the 400's. If you're going to do suspension, i would look for a good used set from a 400 or find some aftermarket. The price of purchasing 450 shocks and then having them fully serviced is going to be very close to what you would pay for a new aftermarket set and you can find the used ones very reasonably priced.

the stock honda 450 shocks are a very good template shock that can be setup to almost any style and preference of riding, which makes them popular and therefore is the reason the price on them stays around $150-$200 for a good used set.

ultimately it's up to you but as you mentioned if you look around you can definitely find some good priced used front shocks.



or, just find a pair of 450 shocks that's already been rebuilt by a shock builder.......

[ish416]

First thing, front shocks.

Bolt up your stock KFX450 shocks to the front of your EX. I did on mine and it is a world of difference. I have ridden on Elka Stg 3, Works Triple Rate Pro series and Honda 450R GT Thunder rebuilds.

Those shocks performed nearly identically to the stock KFX450 shocks. They actually perform a lot better on the EX than they do on the KFX. It's impressive how good they actually are on the EX compared to how bad they are on the KFX450. With a modest rebuild, I would think that these could easily rival the highest end shocks designed for the EX.

The reason everyone runs Honda 450R shocks is because most people think that Honda goes with Honda. Also, most people just slap them on their EX without a rebuild and don't realize how terrible the stock Honda 450R shock actually is (still vastly superior to the stock EX shocks). It can be built to be a nice shock but at that point you would be better off just purchasing a top tier aftermarket shock.


As for the 450R swingarm, it doesn't really do much. At least the one we used. I think it was an 04-05, it added half an inch I think. It helped keep the front end down and add a bit of stability through the whoops. We did this years ago on my friends EX. I want to say that the linkage and everything was at the exact same point on the 450R swingarm as it was on the EX.

If you decide to do it, you will need the swingarm, carrier, axle and rear brake setup.


The frame will need to be gusseted at the front shock tower. Otherwise, it will break from any sort of punishment. I have had this happen on several EX frames.


As for the body and ergo's, you know what you like.


On to power.

This tried and true build will work perfectly and I think give you everything you want from an EX. It will basically be more power everywhere, especially where the EX lacks, the mid to high rpm. It should be very similar to how the KFX450 was stock but it's not going to choke out on the top end like the KFX did with its stupid pancake intake.

An 11:1 piston of whatever size needed, a stage 2 hotcam, ported head, an 04-05 450R carb or FCR (the carb is the most under-rated upgrade on an EX), XR400 OEM gaskets, CRF timing chain with your choice of manual or automatic tensioner. I would also HIGHLY recommend a larger oil cooler and SPAL fan setup and that should do it.


Expect a PM from me on 450HQ about the airbox before next weekend, haven't had time to mess with it lately. Also, I could send you my KFX450 fronts that are mounted to my EX. Might give you an idea of where to go with this build and shouldn't add much to the shipping costs.

[Stickman400]

I don't see why everyone is saying you're going to be spending the same if you bought a set of used aftermarkets compared to stock 450s, then have then re-built. Remember, you have around $850 TOTAL into a pair of 450s that are built FOR YOU. Also, you can do this with ANY set of 450 shocks, not just Honda 450R shocks. Most buy Honda because as ish said, most people want Honda parts on a Honda. But most builders know the Honda 450 shocks the best because that's what most are having built because of the Honda 450s popularity.

If you buy a NEW set of aftermarkets the cheapest are going to be around $800-$1000 (for a decent set with pre-load, rebound and compression settings), and then they might not even be setup for you (Elka has a bad rap for not setting up a new pair for a rider).

If you buy a USED aftermarket pair, sure they're going to be cheaper, around $500-$700 if you're damn lucky, but you'll be lucky if they are setup perfectly for you. So then you have to turn around and send them back out to be setup for you and the total would be around $700-$900 depending on what they need and who you send them too. Factor in the shipping and it's almost identical to what you have into a pair of 450 re-builds.

So in the end you can either have a set of used aftermarkets that are re-built and like new setup for you, just to say you have aftermarkets shocks (bear in mind you will more than likely spend slightly more that the 450s in the end). Or you can have a set of 450 rebuilds that are like new and setup for you but you can't say they're aftermarket. But when someone sees how they perform and they ask what they are and you say "Oh, they're just stock 450 shocks I had re-built" they'll say "WHAT?!?!?" As compared to "Cool, Bro" with the aftermarkets. Atleast that's how I look at it.

[ben300]

I don't see many guys putting rebuild 450 shocks on their 400's. Most of what i see are people just putting the oem 450r fronts on the 400's. If you're going to do suspension, i would look for a good used set from a 400 or find some aftermarket. The price of purchasing 450 shocks and then having them fully serviced is going to be very close to what you would pay for a new aftermarket set and you can find the used ones very reasonably priced.

lots of guys put them, and rebuild them on 400ex's. espeically in the XC community. In fact, TONS of guys go with stock revalve/resprung shocks period on their bikes in the XC community. they perform extremely well, at a fraction of the price of after markets. Adam McGill just won the the one of the FTR race on stock Derisi revalves and stock a-arms.



I don't see why everyone is saying you're going to be spending the same if you bought a set of used aftermarkets compared to stock 450s, then have then re-built. Remember, you have around $850 TOTAL into a pair of 450s that are built FOR YOU. Also, you can do this with ANY set of 450 shocks, not just Honda 450R shocks. Most buy Honda because as ish said, most people want Honda parts on a Honda. But most builders know the Honda 450 shocks the best because that's what most are having built because of the Honda 450s popularity.

If you buy a NEW set of aftermarkets the cheapest are going to be around $800-$1000 (for a decent set with pre-load, rebound and compression settings), and then they might not even be setup for you (Elka has a bad rap for not setting up a new pair for a rider).

If you buy a USED aftermarket pair, sure they're going to be cheaper, around $500-$700 if you're damn lucky, but you'll be lucky if they are setup perfectly for you. So then you have to turn around and send them back out to be setup for you and the total would be around $700-$900 depending on what they need and who you send them too. Factor in the shipping and it's almost identical to what you have into a pair of 450 re-builds.

So in the end you can either have a set of used aftermarkets that are re-built and like new setup for you, just to say you have aftermarkets shocks (bear in mind you will more than likely spend slightly more that the 450s in the end). Or you can have a set of 450 rebuilds that are like new and setup for you but you can't say they're aftermarket. But when someone sees how they perform and they ask what they are and you say "Oh, they're just stock 450 shocks I had re-built" they'll say "WHAT?!?!?" As compared to "Cool, Bro" with the aftermarkets. Atleast that's how I look at it.



i agree 100%. there is a definite price difference, adn thats why they exist, and there's so many of them out there now compared to 5-7 years ago. You can send your stock 450 fronts, and your 400 rear to deris racing, and for $895, Santo or James reeves will revalve and respring your front shocks(duel rate) and your rear to yoru weight and riding style, and then will throw in their link as well.


or you could send your fronts and rear to Ron Elmore at rocket ron racing, and he'll rebuild your fronts (revalve, long travle, triple rate), and your rear (revalve, dual rate), and a link for $1250. where are you gonna find brand new aftermarket shocks for that price? your not. Im not talking about elka stage 3's (elkas, uless there stage 4 or 5, are junk, and the stage 4 and 5's still need set up for you. thats $$$$$$) or works triple rates. Im talking about a good shock like a good axis, or a fox float evol gen 2 or the new gen 3's, a motowoz, or and Exit X2. Your gonna spend at least $1200 for a brand new set of fronts for those (unless your sponsored), and if you go the used right, your still gonna have $300-$500 getting them revalved, resprung, and rebuilt. the stock rebuilds work great if you dont have an ulimited build budget.

if they were good, then guys like McGill, Ockerman, brandon Sommers, brycen neal, johnny gallegher, yoho, etc woudlnt have won races on them

[2001400exrida]

lots of guys put them, and rebuild them on 400ex's. espeically in the XC community. In fact, TONS of guys go with stock revalve/resprung shocks period on their bikes in the XC community. they perform extremely well, at a fraction of the price of after markets. Adam McGill just won the the one of the FTR race on stock Derisi revalves and stock a-arms.

not arguing that, in fact i have had 2 sets of resprung revalved 450 shocks. but for $895 you can find some awesome aftermarket shocks, and if you're lucky they will be setup for rider weight, just depends on what you find while you're looking.


far as the pros running stock rebuilds take a look, most of the top dudes are actually running sponsored name brand shocks. Absolutely on an amateur level the stock rebuilds are a great shock to run, but you gotta know that the pro's are running the top of the line aftermarket companies. floats, custom axis, hls, etc. For the money the stock rebuilds are great, but if you're talking the best performing shock there is only so much you can do with the stock skeleton.

[chronicsmoke]

I've had ST rebuilds and now on LT aftermarkets and there's a difference, the biggest difference was the price, lol.

LT aftermarket shocks are awesome, I can't deny, BUT it depends on what you're doing and how much money you're spending. The best bang for your buck for us amateur guys is the stock rebuilds, hands down. If they are properly built for you, you have to be a VERY good rider in order notice a difference over a big dollar setup. In my experience, my LT setup is more forgivving on big g-outs and cased/overshot landings. Plus the Hi/Lo speed comp settings are pretty cool when dialed in, but it cost at least 1.5X or more what my ST setup cost me. Keep in mind I bought my suspension used and had to pay over a grand to get them rebuilt (front and rear + small cosmetics)

on my 400ex I have triple rate front TCS shocks that I'm seriously considering selling for 450r rebuilt front shocks. For your build I think I'd get 450r/KFX shocks rebuilt and get the XC link on the back and be done.

[MtnEX]

Hummm... The 450R fronts must be really figured out now and really good then?

I have ridden revalve/resprings before and they are better than stock for trail riding. But I was under-impressed for the investment as far as racing. They were nowhere in the neighborhood of competitive for XC racing. I even had a set done for my KFX... and redone several times. They still weren't right and enough for me. I learned what was up in the process though. So when I gave up and sold them I was able to screen everyone interested in them and sell them to someone I knew they would work better for. He went up 10 spots in the overalls first time out on them.

If they are good, heck I got no problem at all going that route. I was just kinda scratching my head because of old experiences. The KFX reworks really don't even count to me because nobody had anything figured out about them... and that may have been what my earlier experience was on others... they may have just not gotten good at them yet.

I have a bone stock set of KFX shocks I can do... just need to talk around and see if anyone is any good and doing them for a 400EX.

I checked the other options I have today, and they will not work unless I have some arms built. Oh well... this is why it is good to plan well and check into a lot before getting eye deep into a project.

[chronicsmoke]

Well the TCS shocks I have don't have rebound, so rather than buy a cheap set of Elkas or something with compression/preload/rebound for ~$300-500 and getting them reserviced for ~$200-500+

Or getting the 450r shocks done where they shorten them to get the correct extended length and valve them for the 400ex. I haven't ridden 450r shocks on a 400ex unless they were stock but the dual rates I had on my 450r were pretty damn good. Only reason I went LT is because I felt like the rear shock was holding me back so I did LT in the back and sold my ST front end to pay for the LT front end.. Expensive process if you buy your suspension twice..

[ben300]

Hummm... The 450R fronts must be really figured out now and really good then?

I have ridden revalve/resprings before and they are better than stock for trail riding. But I was under-impressed for the investment as far as racing. They were nowhere in the neighborhood of competitive for XC racing. I even had a set done for my KFX... and redone several times. They still weren't right and enough for me. I learned what was up in the process though. So when I gave up and sold them I was able to screen everyone interested in them and sell them to someone I knew they would work better for. He went up 10 spots in the overalls first time out on them.

If they are good, heck I got no problem at all going that route. I was just kinda scratching my head because of old experiences. The KFX reworks really don't even count to me because nobody had anything figured out about them... and that may have been what my earlier experience was on others... they may have just not gotten good at them yet.

I have a bone stock set of KFX shocks I can do... just need to talk around and see if anyone is any good and doing them for a 400EX.

I checked the other options I have today, and they will not work unless I have some arms built. Oh well... this is why it is good to plan well and check into a lot before getting eye deep into a project.



just wondering, how long ago did you run stock rebuilds? and were they the stock KFX?




i can tell you for a fact that PROS have won championships on them and pro am/a riders have won championships on them (honda and yamaha rebuilds). if you couldnt get the shocks set up right, it was either the shock builder didnt know what he was doing, or that he/she simply didnt know enough about the kawi shocks. the other thing to is most shock builders already have the numbers and everything for a 400 with the showa 450r front shocks ready to go. they might not have theys numbers for the kyb shock (even though it wouldnt be hard for them to figure it out)


the ones i have done for my 400 work great. for my ability, its an amazing ride, and the faster i get, the more i learn to appreciate the set up. now would i love to have aftermarket everything? sure thing! but i cant currently afford it, nor do i want to dump that money into a 400, when im eventualy gonna switch to a 450.

the shock builders today have teh honda and the yamaha shocks figured out to a precise science. some builders are better than others. it all comes back to 3 things i have found:

1. how much information you give them about yourself, the feed back with them, and how much you communicate with them.
2. your understanding of setting the shock settings youreslf. playing with them and getting the right tune.
3. an honest estimation of how good of a rider you are. if you say your an aggressive B, and your honestly an aggressive C, then your shocks are gonna probably be to stiff or harsh for your riding and your not gonna get the potential out of the shock.



finally, to 2001400exrida....sure you can buy used aftermarket stuff. theres nothign wrong with that at all. and sure you MAY get lucky with the stuff working perfectly, but chances are, its not gonna be right, and your just nig nog rigging your set up. 90%+ of the used shocks you see out there for honda's are for 450's. it may be an even higher number than that. so i can garantee that they arent set up right and if you want to maximize your potential, your gonna have to send them in and get worked on.

so you could spend $800-$1200 on a stock set up. or you can buy fronts for like $500-$700, have them set up correctly for like $300-$500, rear for $300, have it set up for like $300-$400...and your already looking at almost close to $2000 and you havent even factored in your liknage yet....

[2001400exrida]

who won a championship on stock rebuilds, and what class? that's impressive. I'm not saying anybody is wrong ben so don't take it that, i just truly feel that aftermarket suspension is better and it shows when you look at the pro machines, most of them are running top of the line brand shocks, the stock rebuilds are awesome for the amateur racer and they're definitely worth every penny, but you can't compare some stock rebuilds to a properly built set of custom axis or a set of float evols. Prices vary so there's no definite price on any of these things. I just saw a full set of long travel custom axis freshly rebuilt go for $800. If they were setup for my weight and riding style that would be a great deal.

[CJM]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Rc8k_D3yYoE/Tw4IyOKMysI/AAAAAAAAAls/awgasVzJMfA/s320/Stephen-Colbert-Popcorn.gif

[bonpasbrute]

who won a championship on stock rebuilds, and what class? that's impressive. I'm not saying anybody is wrong ben so don't take it that, i just truly feel that aftermarket suspension is better and it shows when you look at the pro machines, most of them are running top of the line brand shocks, the stock rebuilds are awesome for the amateur racer and they're definitely worth every penny, but you can't compare some stock rebuilds to a properly built set of custom axis or a set of float evols. Prices vary so there's no definite price on any of these things. I just saw a full set of long travel custom axis freshly rebuilt go for $800. If they were setup for my weight and riding style that would be a great deal.

I'm pretty sure that you would argue with a fence post. I keep an eye on this board fairly regular, I can't remeber a single topic where you haven't started an argument with someone. Pretty sad if you ask me... He said Mcgill won a race on stock rebuilds, pretty sure if he ran them, they do a fairly decent job.

[2001400exrida]

i was just throwing out thoughts on the topic. i thought mcgill ran axis, but he could probably win on a stock quad.

[CJM]

I'm pretty sure that you would argue with a fence post. I keep an eye on this board fairly regular, I can't remeber a single topic where you haven't started an argument with someone. Pretty sad if you ask me... He said Mcgill won a race on stock rebuilds, pretty sure if he ran them, they do a fairly decent job.
Well said

[CJM]

I'm pretty sure that you would argue with a fence post. I keep an eye on this board fairly regular, I can't remeber a single topic where you haven't started an argument with someone. Pretty sad if you ask me... He said Mcgill won a race on stock rebuilds, pretty sure if he ran them, they do a fairly decent job.
Well said

[Longdong]

i was just throwing out thoughts on the topic. i thought mcgill ran axis, but he could probably win on a stock quad.

He does run Axis on his national bike. He don't run his national bike at local races. Over the winter he is testing DeRisis revavles.

[MtnEX]

ben300,

I tried rebuilds out in the early 450 days and wasn't real impressed. So several years went by and I got my KFX. I needed to do something but didn't have the money for new aftermarket. With the KFX there was no such thing as used, so I thought I would take a gamble. I sent them to one of the big shops for reworks. Cost me I think $800. They came back better than stock but that was mostly the spring change which I could have done myself (I think).

Anyways I kept sending them back for more work and they would improve some. I even took the whole quad in once for the full deal and then a test and tune session after. They were better again... but still way off.

Sounds like the big shops have Honda and Yamaha figured out far better. I would laugh if I sent my KFX shocks out to be reworked for Honda geometry and they were great.

[ben300]

who won a championship on stock rebuilds, and what class?

these are just some of the championships out there


Brandon Sommers:
2007 GNCC XC2 Pro-Am championship (10 wins)
2007 AWRCS Pro and Overall
2008 AWRCS pro and overall


Donnie Ockerman:
2008 GNCC XC2 (8 wins)
2011 or 2012 or boht IXCR pro class

Brian Wolf:
2009 GNCC XC2 2nd place (8 wins)

Brian, up untill last year (he ran a yama with custom axis), still regularly competed with GT thunder stock rebuilds (Laz has been like a life long sponsor of him. they have a good relationship.)

Brycen neal:

2012 MAXC A class championship. Brycen competed on Jett long travel rebuilds and teixeira tech long travel XC arms (the long travel stock rebuilds work great with these arms. Jet suspension and rocket ron racing like these arms.)


Joey "Bam" Margaria:
2012 GNCC sport 15+ class championship. Joe (ex pro am guy. used to have factory deal with polaris.) came out of retirement and won the sport class championship on a 250r , with stock revalves (just revalve, no resprung). Joey is faster than 99% of everyone on this forum.

look down pro row, you'll see guys on them. if you look down the GNCC XC2 pro-am row, you'll see lots of guys with them. lot of guys will have one bike built for nationals with after market shocks and wil have a second bike built for locals with revalves. or you will see guys buld multiple bikes with stock revalves.

heck, if you look at the GNCC sport class in particular from this year, colton white (400ex, 2nd, 3 wins) and Brayden shick (400ex, 3rd, 3 wins), were both on stock revalves (1st place, scott sleppy, may have been to. not sure).

if you look all up and down the rows at these national races. your gonna see really fast dudes using them.

heres the promo that Derisi put out of adam mcgill and braden henthorn riding "stock" suspension for these pre-season races (brayden wrecked into another quad head on yesterday, tore his left a-arm off, and broke his foot)

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/XL-4U3KfcV8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[2001400exrida]

thanks for the explanation It must just be my area races that i tend to see more aftermarket on the pros than stock rebuilds. When jet was closer, they were the king of the stock rebuild in my district. They had test and tunes quite often and would do it free if you had them build your shocks. sponsor or not, it was a good gig. I was able to get mine dialed in just how i want them.

I could sit here and post pictures of their aftermarket setups but i don't have time. sure they all run stock rebuilds in the small races and stuff, but when it really matters, they run the best that they can and for a reason, not just because they're sponsored.

[MtnEX]

Yeah, their KFX450R work isn't anywhere near that caliber.

Looks like they have the Honda stuff working good.

[MtnEX]

I did some checking today and it looks like I have few options with stock arms. There's no room there to go modding.

So, used aftermarket already set up close and nothing much to do but service. Or mod stock KFX shocks to fit and respring/revalve or do the 450R shocks, or take a shot at bargain aftermarket.

So I am weighing that vs going with aftermarket arms and other ideas.

Out back I am going to run a linkage... GT Thunder most likely, and a stock or aftermarket shock set up for that.

[dustin_j]

What are extended and compressed lengths for the stock KFX shocks? One benefit not mentioned of 450R shocks (Honda) is that the body tube is removable, so it can easily be shortened (which needs to be done before use on a 400EX).

[MtnEX]

16.25" extended... and I am GUESSING 12" compressed... based on 2:1 motion ratio and 8.5" front wheel travel on the KFX?

I know extended is OK, but I don't know if the compressed is short enough? I haven't had mine down on a 2x4 to check?

Do you know what that compressed measurement is?


These would certainly save me some money and be usable on both quads. But I do worry a little they won't be as good because they are not figured out like the Honda shocks.

[LxMxL97]

I would just buy a set if 450r fronts get them done and that be the end of it

[MtnEX]

I am keeping my eyes peeled for some 450R and also keeping an eye out for aftermarket too.

No big hurry....

[Fix29]

I had a set of 450r revalved fronts on mine. I bought them already set up for a 400ex and for my weight, also had been converted to dual rates by DirtWorks Motorsports. They were great shocks and would still be on my quad had I not come across a killer deal on a full set of Axis custom shocks.

[MtnEX]

Cool... and what would you say the performance gap is between those Axis and the R shocks you had?

I see Axis, Pep, TCS, Works, Elka regularly used.

[MtnEX]

Grrr.... just missed my shot at R shocks already done by Jet Suspension for my weight and riding.

Went for $242.50.... and what was I doing? Out with my daughter getting some new pants for dance.

[2001400exrida]

There's some gt thunder rebuilds for $200 on fb group

[MtnEX]

This place has a facebook group too?

Not to be a jerk, but those things are known for killing forums because people quit coming to the forums.

[2001400exrida]

it's a trx450r facebook group and yuou're right it really pulls away from the forums. I prefer it though because you don't have knuckleheads hiding behind a keyboard trying to run the show. On FB everybody under their real name and if they try to be jerky boys, they get called out, it's as close to real life as it gets. I see too many pile ons on the forums and that doesn't fly on FB. People aren't cool based on post count and bullying or how many other members they know. People can't be posers on facebook either because anybody that knows them or rides with them will make it straight.

pm sent

[2001400exrida]

http://www.atvriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?507866-Custom-Axis-Front-and-Rear-XC-shocks

[MtnEX]

Thank you... checking on a rework quote now to see how that would come out in the end. (I'm over 175lbs)

[400man]

MtnEX, clear your inbox

[MtnEX]

I did... sorry.

I got an email notification.

[MtnEX]

Well, this project isn't dead yet (in thought) so I have something to run by the masses...

I am thinking of buying 400EX eyelet reducers from Fox for my Float EVOL RC2 shocks... that unfortunately won't fit a stock bike still... so the thought is, having JD Performance build me 400EX arms to work with my Float 3's extended and compressed length.

Basically, move the shock mount out towards the tire more and place it in the correct spot for proper up and down travel with these shocks. 400EX with long travel for XC basically.

Dave of course is a great guy, and says he can do it after giving him the specs. But he was also open to suggest weighing my other options for what I want to do with this quad. He pointed out that if I did shocks or revalves instead, I would have a roll it on the trailer ready to go bike vs having to install arms and move shocks over to get it ready. It's a good point.

What do you all think?

And has anyone ever revalved a different shock from the 450R shock for use on the front of the EX??? I think I have seen a few KFX450 shocks and YFZ shocks installed on an EX, but never saw any revalved/resprung.

My experience with KFX revalves was not good enough. I never did figure out if it was the shock, or lack of experience with the KFX450 or a little of both?

[Stickman400]

I'm still a firm believer of the re-valved stock 450 shocks over anything aftermarket if you are looking to save a few bucks, or even if you are wanting an awesome performing shock for under $850. My TRX re-valves are still doing amazing since Nick did the triple rate/extended travel conversion on them. I've been recommending them to everyone that asks about them. Any reason why you want to go with YFZ or KFX shocks? Or is it just for comparison?

[Blodg]

^^^I agree with Stickman, the stock revalves are great.

[MtnEX]

Yeah, I can't decide what to do. I can do the arms and share Fox Float 3 Evols. Or I can just try revalves... as it may not be a bad experience on Honda like it has been for me on another bike.

I also was just curious if everyone was revalving TRX450R shocks because I have seen some guys put KFX450R and YFZ shocks and stuff on their 400EX too. Just don't know if anyone has also reworked them too.

I would doubt the KYB shocks Yamaha and Kawasaki uses are as good of a shock as the TRX450R shocks.

[duke416ex]

I was just glancing through the thread, I don't have any experience with yamaha shocks on the honda, but the yamaha revalves on a yamaha are just as good as the honda revalves. I ran revlaves for a while and would be fine with the just riding, they are cheaper than aftermarket and perform pretty good. Plus if you buy used aftermarket shocks you will more than likely need a service, revalve, or length changes and before long are looking at new shock prices, been there before. The main problem I had in revalves is they fade about half way through a race and I had to adapt and ride different.

+1 with 4+1 wheels on a 400 make a good stance. I have a friend with that setup and is still a lot narrower than a 450, almost stock 400 width but seems more stable. If I get a chance I will try to get some pics.

[MtnEX]

I talked to a guy who runs a shock shop that I really trust for unbiased opinion about my assumptions on the KYB shocks used on other bikes vs the 450R shocks and found out I was wrong. I was told they are all about par with each other, 6 of one half dozen of another. Ups and downs to both. Performance not all that different.

Basically the difference I experienced is the lack of tons and tons of experience out there for the quad I ran them on and the particular KYB.

So if I actually end up doing revalves, I think I will send the KFX450R KYB shocks in to be set up for the 400EX. But I am kind of doubting I will choose that route. I am for sure not going to buy 450R shocks and pay to ship them two ways and pay for the work too. It doesn't make any sense. At that price point I can just buy GT Suspension for the front and rework the rear. That's starting to press towards the price of an Elka Stage 3 kit though... and so it goes on and on.

Still debating this vs having arms built to work with the Fox Float 3's I have already. Unsure still and I have plenty of time to figure it out unfortunately.

[Stickman400]

I talked to a guy who runs a shock shop that I really trust for unbiased opinion about my assumptions on the KYB shocks used on other bikes vs the 450R shocks and found out I was wrong. I was told they are all about par with each other, 6 of one half dozen of another. Ups and downs to both. Performance not all that different.

Basically the difference I experienced is the lack of tons and tons of experience out there for the quad I ran them on and the particular KYB.

So if I actually end up doing revalves, I think I will send the KFX450R KYB shocks in to be set up for the 400EX. But I am kind of doubting I will choose that route. I am for sure not going to buy 450R shocks and pay to ship them two ways and pay for the work too. It doesn't make any sense. At that price point I can just buy GT Suspension for the front and rework the rear. That's starting to press towards the price of an Elka Stage 3 kit though... and so it goes on and on.

Still debating this vs having arms built to work with the Fox Float 3's I have already. Unsure still and I have plenty of time to figure it out unfortunately.

Stage 3 Elkas aren't great, I wouldn't consider buying them as an "aftermarket" shock, they don't even have a rebound adjustment. I only say that because I have them on my 450 and I can't get them to respond to any adjustments. I'd go with GT shocks unless you are only saving a couple hundred over the new arms and the Fox setup. Then I'd go that route. Fox are probably the nicest long travel shocks out there along with Stage 5 Elkas (ridiculously overpriced) and PEP PB1s.

[MtnEX]

Elka's still seem to be hit and miss. If they come out of the box right they work good. If not, then you have a bunch more money to spend sending them somewhere for modifications.

I've seen the Stage 5's come out of the box very very sad, and they were built for a Pro rider. So you would think their best effort would have been put forward.

I've seen some Stage 3's with rebound on front and rear. I have gotten good feedback from folks that have them like that too, and the price is attractive enough to make you want to buy and hope you're a lucky one... but I am seldom lucky and would keep sending them back to Elka expecting them to correct... lol.

I'm considering a used front end, and the GT Suspension and also the custom arms at this point. I'm quite a fan of Fox products and customer service at this point. Their shocks do respond to adjustments, and with the fronts I don't have to worry about the spring rates being right out of the box because I get to change those myself with an air pump. They are hard to tune until you learn them... but nice after you do. The only down side I can find is every ride has to start with setting pressures.

[LxMxL97]

Elka's still seem to be hit and miss. If they come out of the box right they work good. If not, then you have a bunch more money to spend sending them somewhere for modifications.

I've seen the Stage 5's come out of the box very very sad, and they were built for a Pro rider. So you would think their best effort would have been put forward.

I've seen some Stage 3's with rebound on front and rear. I have gotten good feedback from folks that have them like that too, and the price is attractive enough to make you want to buy and hope you're a lucky one... but I am seldom lucky and would keep sending them back to Elka expecting them to correct... lol.

I'm considering a used front end, and the GT Suspension and also the custom arms at this point. I'm quite a fan of Fox products and customer service at this point. Their shocks do respond to adjustments, and with the fronts I don't have to worry about the spring rates being right out of the box because I get to change those myself with an air pump. They are hard to tune until you learn them... but nice after you do. The only down side I can find is every ride has to start with setting pressures.
If you buy Elkas you will be wasting your money they only shocks they build that are worth anything are the 5s and they are just crazy expensive find yourself a nice used long travel front end custom axis, exit, and fox are what I would recommend

[MtnEX]

If I don't turn up a good front end when I can afford it, I will just have the arms built I think.

I am looking at a front end now but can't strike at the moment. If it gets gone I will keep used shopping and saving. If I don't find something I'll either do the custom arms for my Fox or look at GT Suspension and some arms.

[LxMxL97]

If I don't turn up a good front end when I can afford it, I will just have the arms built I think.

I am looking at a front end now but can't strike at the moment. If it gets gone I will keep used shopping and saving. If I don't find something I'll either do the custom arms for my Fox or look at GT Suspension and some arms.

There's a pro am rider parting out a bike on Facebook right now it has Gregs revalves and houser a arms $200 for the shocks and $500 for the a arms he said they have one ride on them and are set for 180lb xc

[jsq1]

I just ordered Quad Kinetix A-arms, they took over the GT Thunder A-arm divsion

[MtnEX]

Yeah, I saw those as well.

I think I have narrowed my thoughts down to just between two... having JD just make me arms to my specs (to use my current shocks) or Alba arms so that I can easily use conversion shocks until I can spring for GT Suspension shocks for the long travel mounts.

The choice between the two will likely not be decided by me, but more likely will be decided by how those companies respond to me going forward to be honest.

If JD doesn't give me the run around when I am ready to order and Fox continues to sponsor me on my other racing venture I will go that route. But if not, I know I can just buy Alba arms and I know I can count on Andy for GT Suspension. Heck I could probably have adapters made for the Alba arms to use any shock length I want between 19.75" back to stock 16.25".

[400man]

I just ordered Quad Kinetix A-arms, they took over the GT Thunder A-arm divsion


did they make any changes to the a arms or are they the same as they always were? post some pics if you can!

[jsq1]

Same as old ones I believe, I will post pic once they arrive