XC race arms? Offsets?

[MtnEX]

Hey guys... those of you racing XC... what are you guys doing?

What width are you setting up at?

Are you running stock width in the rear and doing +1 arms and then 4+1 wheels to come back in to stock?

Or are you doing 3+6 rear wheels and +1 arms with stock front offset... or +2 arms and 4+1 wheels?

[Mtndew99]

I'm doing stock rear with +1 a arms 4:1 offset

[LxMxL97]

I've got +2 with 4:1 offset it's a lilts wide but it's manageable

[MtnEX]

Well I made mine wider to be more stable and noticed the same thing... it gets mighty tight sometimes. I think it is like 47.5" in the rear now? I went to 3+6 rear wheels. I couldn't cope with more offset on the front though so I decided I either needed to go back or buy arms. I ended up going back in the front and leaving the rear as it has just been a trail quad up until now.

Ironically when I bought arms for my 450 I ended up getting bad info from 3 people who can't read a ruler. I ended up 48" wide on it due to arms and the 3+2 wheels. The wheels were like 3 laps old and I couldn't sell them for something I could accept, so I said screw it, the LTR guys do it somehow... so I will try it. It is nerve racking and scary sometimes but I have made it through. Sometimes took more than one try, but... lol...

Anyways I think what it slows me down in the ultra tight I gain back elsewhere. But at the same time, I think it may be just the fact that the arms make the 450 turn so much better. So I really need to run practice at 48" and 46" to see what is really up there.

This Honda I will likely run it stock to start with because I really have no complaints on how it turns and even if I did, aftermarket ball joints can be installed easy to make things adjustable. But in the long haul I may be looking at getting it wider though depending on how my practice runs come out for me on the 450. The width sure does wonders for stability. I tend to get it on 2 wheels a lot in the corners. It may have a whole lot to do with running a pushing 450 for so long before getting arms and then jumping on the 400 I may be getting it like that because I am over compensating for lack of bite when it has plenty.

But if extra width is slowing me down on lap time on the 450.... well then I will run both narrow if proof is in the lap times.

I think seeing what everyone else is doing on width on these things is wise for me right now.

[LxMxL97]

I would stay as close to 46" as possible and as far as going to 2 wheels in the corner I would say it's the way you ride or the rear tires my advise is get a tire that will slide better or use your back brakes and then spin out of the corners

[MtnEX]

I didn't have the problem before really, it was just crap tires. Now I think it is transition back from the 450 when it used to push. I haven't switched back and forth since getting arms and getting the 450 turning in good.

Much cheaper to stay narrow with it though. Don't have to buy arms even. But not a huge savings like it is with other bikes because EX arm prices are pretty good.

[LxMxL97]

I would buy +1 mgc lt with 4:1 wheels

[MtnEX]

I would buy +1 mgc lt with 4:1 wheels

Who makes those for the 400EX?

Been meaning to look into what kind of shock extended/compressed lengths are typically needed for standard/long travel XC.
There are probably all kinds of different numbers there but trying to get an idea.

[CJM]

JD Performance makes the max ground clearance type arms. I think alba does too.

Id run +1 with stock or 3:2 wheels (4:1 defeats most of the purpose) or +2 with 4:1

[MtnEX]

Yeah, I see the Alba arms. Hate to say it with all the great arms made out there, but those were what I was looking for last time I bought.

Just makes good sense and I hope to see others get on board and take the idea a bit farther. It has never made any sense to me for both frame and arm shock mounts to be totally fixed to one position where only one shock spec can be used.

[LxMxL97]

I'm not sure but I think houser does and my buddy had a set of albas and the bushings are GARBAGE

[LxMxL97]

JD Performance makes the max ground clearance type arms. I think alba does too.

Id run +1 with stock or 3:2 wheels (4:1 defeats most of the purpose) or +2 with 4:1

It still moves the hub and knuckle out when I changed from 3:2 wheels to 4:1 there wasn't a change at all

[CJM]

It still moves the hub and knuckle out when I changed from 3:2 wheels to 4:1 there wasn't a change at all

I think your quite mistaken... http://www.atvriders.com/articles/atvwheeloffset.html

4:1 wheels are an inch less wide overall than stock wheels and 3:2 wheels are the exact opposite and wider than stock setup by 1". +1 arms mean +1 both sides, so therefore 2 inches, +2 would equal 4 inches wider total..

:blah:

[MtnEX]

I'm not sure but I think houser does and my buddy had a set of albas and the bushings are GARBAGE

I have heard mixed reviews on the delrin or whatever bushings. Some like them because they are cheap and easy to replace. Others don't like them because they would rather things last longer. One might be able to find needle bearings to pop in them that are the right OD and ID. I don't know.

[LxMxL97]

I think your quite mistaken... http://www.atvriders.com/articles/atvwheeloffset.html

4:1 wheels are an inch less wide overall than stock wheels and 3:2 wheels are the exact opposite and wider than stock setup by 1". +1 arms mean +1 both sides, so therefore 2 inches, +2 would equal 4 inches wider total..

:blah:

I mean a change in handling I agree they make the bike narrower that's why I switched

[Blodg]

I don't race XC but I raced MX for years and I can tell you with my LSR +2 a-arms and 4:1 wheels it measures 46" wide and handles fantastic.

[MtnEX]

Yeah, I have not pulled out a ruler on mine in a while. But I swear I want to say the rear is 45.5 stock and 47.5" with 3+6 rear wheels that add an inch to each side.

But I am thinking the front sits static at about 43" or 44" and of course gets wider when compressed where the arms are level to the frame. I might be having a brain lapse but it seems like a detail I had forgotten about until you said that about the +2 arms.

Sounds like I could have a choice of 46" or 48" on the Honda like I do on my Kawasaki by just changing wheels.

[CJM]

I found measuring, that a totally stock setup is approx 43-44" without a rider on it. Depends on the tires you use.

[MtnEX]

Dang, so I did pull something useful out of "file-13"...

So I guess it is time for me to look at and measure the lateral scrub on the front end... that is what I call it anyways... the amount the tires travel outward during the suspension stroke.

My KFX is 48" and has some lateral scrub like every bike but I do not know how much less it has than the Honda. But LOL... by gosh I know it is there! Last race I ran with it, I stayed on the lead lap. Not very far in there were these two trees right at the base of a hump. Went right through... except the last lap. I was beat and was not near as hard on the throttle... and let me tell ya... I hit on both sides. Took what fight I had left in me right out before I even got started good on that last lap... lol.

If the Honda doesn't gain any more than the KFX I will do the +2 arms when I can I guess and be able to run either quad at 46" or 48"...

[LxMxL97]

Dang, so I did pull something useful out of "file-13"...

So I guess it is time for me to look at and measure the lateral scrub on the front end... that is what I call it anyways... the amount the tires travel outward during the suspension stroke.

My KFX is 48" and has some lateral scrub like every bike but I do not know how much less it has than the Honda. But LOL... by gosh I know it is there! Last race I ran with it, I stayed on the lead lap. Not very far in there were these two trees right at the base of a hump. Went right through... except the last lap. I was beat and was not near as hard on the throttle... and let me tell ya... I hit on both sides. Took what fight I had left in me right out before I even got started good on that last lap... lol.

If the Honda doesn't gain any more than the KFX I will do the +2 arms when I can I guess and be able to run either quad at 46" or 48"...


Did you race a cra race in Lisbon ohio on the 27th? Because I was following a guy on a kfx that did the same thing

[chronicsmoke]

Hey guys... those of you racing XC... what are you guys doing?

What width are you setting up at?

I like +2s on the 400, I find it's so narrow compared to the 450r to begin with.

I was trying to set my EX for MX once upon a time and bought +2s (The seller told me they were +3s, but you win some and you lose some) Even with 3:2 wheels I'm like ~47-48" which is fine for the XC races up here (FMSQ series) I'm racing my MX 450r ~49.5", lol. Yes it gets tight in some spots but I walk by people in the MX sections :D

My vote for an XC/all around 400 would be +2 arms with 4:1 offset wheels or 3:2 offset wheels. The wider offset may be a bit wide for tight stuff but it's managable (worth it to me if you're not 100% racing XC)

MX exclusive you'd want +3+1 arms regarless, there's not really a way around it that will get you to 50"

[MtnEX]

Did you race a cra race in Lisbon ohio on the 27th? Because I was following a guy on a kfx that did the same thing

No, it was an XC race in South Carolina and thankfully I had really checked out, so nobody was there to run me over when I screwed up. Hurt me though and put an extra 4 minutes on my last lap time.

[MtnEX]

I like +2s on the 400, I find it's so narrow compared to the 450r to begin with.

I was trying to set my EX for MX once upon a time and bought +2s (The seller told me they were +3s, but you win some and you lose some) Even with 3:2 wheels I'm like ~47-48" which is fine for the XC races up here (FMSQ series) I'm racing my MX 450r ~49.5", lol. Yes it gets tight in some spots but I walk by people in the MX sections :D

My vote for an XC/all around 400 would be +2 arms with 4:1 offset wheels or 3:2 offset wheels. The wider offset may be a bit wide for tight stuff but it's managable (worth it to me if you're not 100% racing XC)

MX exclusive you'd want +3+1 arms regarless, there's not really a way around it that will get you to 50"


Yeah, it's funny and the bones of the two are so similar. I am surprised the 450R arms don't bolt right up.

[chronicsmoke]

Yeah, it's funny and the bones of the two are so similar. I am surprised the 450R arms don't bolt right up.

Lol I know, they probably did it on purpose so you couldn't take 250r & 400ex setups and bolt them up to it or vise versa. :grr:

Then again the swing arms are somewhat compatible so that throws that theory out the window haha

[MtnEX]

Yeah, I noticed Ed used a 450R swinger on his daughter's bike.

[LxMxL97]

When I just rode for fun the 3:2 offset wheels and +2 a arms are great but when you race your going a little faster and your on one of those fresh cut trails that are really narrow that setup is wide and also the series I race is pretty wide but some of the other series around run a lot of tighter sections so it is really about who makes the tracks

[MtnEX]

Mine are made by the old GNCC trail boss. Some of it is crazy tight. When I raced my 450 at 45.5" wide I could not see how in the world the guys with the LTR's with simple mods even made it... like with just different wheel offset to narrow it up a bit from stock MX width.

In the process of building up I bought hipers first and went with 3+2 rather than 4+1 cause the stock wheels were 4+1.5 and I knew the rear tires were going to gain me a little. Then I bought arms based on bad info. When I saw I was going to be 48" I about crapped a brick. But when I could not sell at an acceptable price, I said screw it I will try it because there was no better time to adapt being that I had not ridden at all in months.

It is really nerve racking and I know it slows me down in some places but I am doing better overall. But I think most of the doing better is the arms and I don't have any 4+1 wheels to run timed practice laps on a woods loop to see if I would be faster at 46".

[MtnEX]

Mine are made by the old GNCC trail boss. Some of it is crazy tight. When I raced my 450 at 45.5" wide I could not see how in the world the guys with the LTR's with simple mods even made it... like with just different wheel offset to narrow it up a bit from stock MX width.

In the process of building up I bought hipers first and went with 3+2 rather than 4+1 cause the stock wheels were 4+1.5 and I knew the rear tires were going to gain me a little. Then I bought arms based on bad info. When I saw I was going to be 48" I about crapped a brick. But when I could not sell at an acceptable price, I said screw it I will try it because there was no better time to adapt being that I had not ridden at all in months.

It is really nerve racking and I know it slows me down in some places but I am doing better overall. But I think most of the doing better is the arms and I don't have any 4+1 wheels to run timed practice laps on a woods loop to see if I would be faster at 46".

[chronicsmoke]

We're pretty lucky, most courses are wide enough for SxSs which makes being a full MX width not a disadvantage.. I was surprised to see soe 48+" wide quads in the proclass. This year Im going to try and make Unadilla so I'll see what the tight GNCC stuff is about lol..

[MtnEX]

The series I run is tighter than GNCC and sometimes has a lot of new trail. We don't have any SxS racing at all. I think both series are supposed to be 50" minimum track width but I know ours turns out tighter than that sometimes. I can remember a spot last year that I had to get my front end light and let the rear climb through and I was 45.5" then. I never did see the alternate the LTR's and stuff figured out to get around that area?

I do wanna run some practices at 46" on my 450 now that I have the arms. I just don't have the coin for another set of Hipers just for that.

[chronicsmoke]

That's going to my goal this year.. I'm goign to run trails/XC training on my 400ex to keep some miles off my 450r that will be used in MX and XC comps.

What's the difference between a hairscramble and GNCC? Are hairscambles just exrtemely tight trails? Or is it just another name for the races that aren't GNCC sanctioned?

All we have is FMSQ around here.

[MtnEX]

Same thing... local races are often called harescrambles. You might find them to be a bit tighter than GNCC as that is a national series catering to a larger group.

[2001400exrida]

The harescrambles around here also have crazy wierd obstacles in the middle of nowhere. Are GNCC's like that too? Like one section at my local hare scramble place had parking blocks setup and the guy had a mini excavator that he would rearrange the pieces so the next lap it was different. Then they dump huge amounts of sand in certain areas to make it a nightmare to get through. I've always pictured harescrambles as more of a "scramble" than a race.

[MtnEX]

Here the local series is just like GNCC only smaller. No crazy stuff like that. I believe WORCS has stuff like that. We just race woods trails and crazy stuff in there, and sometimes there will be an MX track on the property they will use a section of... or a man made creek jump option but other than that it is just racing trails similar to what you would find on private property.

[chronicsmoke]

I'm pretty sure almost all of the FMSQ tracks have an MX section.. Mind you it's not maintained worth a **** and is hagred compared to the real thing.. but most XC guys were slowing waaaay down for the jumps.. I almostt rear ended/landed on a few guys a few times in that section.

Ormstown had a pile of rocks about 20-30 yards long about half the size of a masketball but by the time I got through after the faster classes it wasn;t much of an issue.. the 2-3 km of trails 10' wide with nothing but basketball sized rocks was ridiculous from the first lap and only got worse. My thumb would quit working there and i'd give it a break on the MX section because it was just WFO then cramp back up in the tight stuff haha.

I saw a KTM lose all of its fenders trying to cross a ditch lol he hit the ground so hard they all just fell off and then got ran over haha

[MtnEX]

Hate the wide open stuff.

Had plenty of thumb issues in the past. Sucks!

[2001400exrida]

yeah, wide open = boring. If i wanted wide open i'd hop on my street bike.

[quadmanw]

I run the +2 Gt Thunder arms with 4:1 wheels.. I like the set up for the 400, can be a little wide some places tho

[MtnEX]

Does anyone know what the extended and compressed lengths are for standard travel for the 400EX?

I mean I know they got short little stock pogo sticks... but even the stock arms can use a longer extended length shock. Just not long travel.

I have mine sitting with the swinger up on a block waiting for carrier bearings. I can't check it myself.

[Stickman400]

Dustin J could tell ya if he still lurks on here. He told me what the lengths were for the rear shock. I'm sure he'd know the front.

[MtnEX]

Yeah, time for a new thread to get the attention of those that can provide the answers.