Best year/gen for XC motor

[MtnEX]

I wanted to ask the source here of the masses what the opinion is about what year or what generation motor would be the best for an XC build?

I used to be certain I wanted a reverse motor. But I have been around a 2012 motor that has been more trouble in a year than mine has been in a decade lol... so what year... or 99-04 vs 05+ ?????

[400man]

ehhh, reverse is for pansies and old guys :D . mine is a 00 model and when I got it about 3 or 4 years ago, was still a stock motor. ive rebuilt the topend since then and added some performance too it, but it still has the orginal crank, cases has never been split. and theres no tellin what it went through before me.

So my vote is for the 1st gen. bikes. even on the looks, I cant stand the new pointy fenders, and the 05's only look good when you put a aftermarket hood and ditch the headlight.

[RNL]

I'm opposite, love the new sleek and pointy fenders. I can't stand the old bulky floppy fenders and the bug eyes headlights. Also the 05 plus newer have different internal gear ratios and are a little quicker acceleration wise, but not by much. For me the new 400x's are the best looking quad out there, but that's just me. And after having an 03 400ex, an 04 400ex, and a YFZ 450 with out reverse, I will never buy another quad without reverse again!!!!! The new ones get my vote!

[RNL]

ehhh, reverse is for pansies and old guys :D . mine is a 00 model and when I got it about 3 or 4 years ago, was still a stock motor. ive rebuilt the topend since then and added some performance too it, but it still has the orginal crank, cases has never been split. and theres no tellin what it went through before me.

So my vote is for the 1st gen. bikes. even on the looks, I cant stand the new pointy fenders, and the 05's only look good when you put a aftermarket hood and ditch the headlight.

I used to think the same about reverse. But my last few adventures on my YFZ in Northern Michigan have swayed me. Plus at 34 my back is going real bad from years of powerlifting, and my chronic tendinitis is bad in my left arm. I dont think I'm old, but sometimes I feel it lol.

[400man]

I used to think the same about reverse. But my last few adventures on my YFZ in Northern Michigan have swayed me. Plus at 34 my back is going real bad from years of powerlifting, and my chronic tendinitis is bad in my left arm. I dont think I'm old, but sometimes I feel it lol.

lol I wasn't actually serious about the reverse comment, just poking at the hornet's nest :bandit:

I know what you mean about feeling old. im fixing to turn 27, and im developing different little aches and pains from my job and I don't feel nothing like I used to 5 or 6 years ago. I rode a 250r before I got my 400. I used to think electric start bikes were for pansies back then, but now I ride one, and don't think I could go back to kick start, I guess its the same way with riding with a bike with reverse

[MtnEX]

Well I never missed reverse on a sport quad until I ended up getting one that had it along the same time I was riding trails through basically a thicket. Then I started to hate my EX. And then there was the first XC race I ran with reverse. Overall I prefer to have reverse. But I already have the 01.

I also wanted to see if more problems were showing up on the reverse motors or if this 2012 bike I have been around is just a lemon?

[OZ-T]

Get a reverse motor and stick it in a first generation EX and get the best of both worlds.

[Stickman400]

I don't know if this is true but the '05-'07 400s have weaker transmissions that the '99-'04s. I own an '05 and my friend used to have an '04. When I got on his the trans was more notchy when shifting, but in a good way, you knew you changed gear because you could feel and hear it click. Mine is somewhat notchy, but not nearly as much as his was. And he was constantly beating on that thing and never had an issue with the bottom end the entire time he had it. Mine in the other hand has got worn a lot more, I have owned it a lot longer than he ever had his, but from constantly banging gears it now slips and neutral drops a lot when you start hammering through them really hard. otherwise it's fine. Never had a n issue with the reverse other than the recall they had back when I bought it. Just my .02. If you want ultimate reliability, get the '99-'04, if you want reverse and reliability, get the '05-'07.

[ish416]

The quality dropped significantly with the newer 08+ EX's IMO. They definately have more transmission issues than the older models. That said, the 99-04 are built extremely well. The 04-07 had some quirks (mainly rod bearing and transmission gears chipping) but still very solid quads overall, the 08+ just aren't made the same. I know several people who have purchased them and every single one of them has had vague, notchy shifting and occasionaly popping out of gear.

I am not sure if they are using different materials or what but there is definately a lack of quality on the newer EXs.

That said, I would have no worries about running a fresh (rebuilt) 04-07 bottom end on my 99 EX.

[MtnEX]

This tread is getting good now... thanks. This is what I was fishing for.

One because I recommended the Z400 and 400EX for our team mate moving up and he has had a lot of issues with his 2012 and I noticed when I rode it during the winter. I noticed the difference but doubted anyone else did.

The other reason is I looked for a reverse motor or bottom end a while to build from before buying my KFX450R instead. Now I am getting closer to it being "done" and I am starting to plan an EX project. Been considering selling, building up, selling for 05+ and of course hybrid swaps. So getting in the know on all the model years is my first narrow down step

[MtnEX]

Are there any other things to consider about them from year to year that is not out in the discussion right now?

Obviously I have a Gen 1 EX to work with here. I could mix parts or even just sell it and get another Gen if I wanted I guess.

I know there is a plastic difference of course. Honestly I like all 3 styles pretty darn good... almost to the point of equal. The only thing I can really think of that I noticed that I really considered much is I have worked on 99-04 and 08+... And dang I think I like the looks and stuff a bit more on the 08+ but I swear I think I prefer the 99-07 rear plastic because the whole dang rear end comes off out of the way with the pull of a lever.

I noticed the tank was different too. Never did look it up to see if there was a capacity difference.

[Stickman400]

I can't think of any other differences that haven't been noted. I wouldn't think the tank would be smaller just because they changed the plastic, but it may be. Having the seat and entire rear plastic come off in 1 piece is VERY handy, you don't really realize it until you have to work on it. Even just doing a simple air filter swap/clean or washing the quad off with everything out of the way in 3 seconds is extremely handy. Makes everything much easier compared to the 450s and 300/250. If I were going to build one I would get a clean '05-'07 that's in good stock or near stock condition, make sure it has that stupid plate thing installed for the reverse recall in the bottom end and go to town. Unless you liked the look of the '99-'04s, then just get an '05 bottom end with the recall thing and then throw a fresh top end on it and put it all in one of your complete quads.

[MtnEX]

Yeah, I am not sure I have a plastic preference that overrides that quick removal on the rear.

Up front, I might switch to the smooth side panels... or maybe the 05-07 plastic. Maier one piece plastics on both ends might be nice. Probably pricey though.

Ah well... how wide is your 400EX the way you have it set up Stickman?

[LxMxL97]

I've got an 05 and I've never had any problems with the bottom end and as far as the seat and fenders coming off as one it's really nice but I've had my seat actually fall off during a race but I feel like that was a one time thing I think the head light is terribly ugly but once you put a hood on there they look great

[MtnEX]

Dagg... plenty of time to decide for sure... but now the debate... sell my 2000 model and get an 05+?... Buy an 05+ and keep my 2000 for spare or parts... need a 4th sport quad like a hole in the head... but all of us would have a quad... yet my youngest is only 6 and I have no earthly way to ever haul 4 quads... lol... the good stuff.

Or do I just say the heck with it and work with what I got that is fine. Just do a ground up build.

I will of course keep my eyes peeled for something already well equipped and leave it subject to change at any time. But do like thinking about the future project. Should be fun to piddle along on as opposed to the struggle I have had with making my KFX450R a good race quad while also actively racing it... lol...

[Stickman400]

I think mine's 48"or 49" in the back, but that's with the axle at +4, and the front is 45"? I haven't measured it in awhile, I think I measured it awhile back when someone asked me and I posted it on here somewhere, but I got no clue where it would be. I think me and a small group are going down to Fingers Lakes in Columbia this weekend before it starts getting really cold. So I'm gunna pull the old beast out of the corner, blow the dust off of it (literally, I'm not joking, I haven't rode the old girl in 2 or 3 months) and shrink the back end down to +1 to match the front and I'll measure it for you.

[Stickman400]

So I was wayyy off. It's 47" in the front with +1 Houser regular travel sli-cast arms and 3+2 rims and 51 1/4" in the back with the axle at +4 with 3+6 rims. We did go to Fingers today but I decided to take the Rancher figuring it would be muddy as hell, and it was. We also had a Razr go with us and got stuck a few times and I was the only one with a winch so I pulled him out quite a few times, if I hadn't had the winch it would have been a pain. He got stuck in one spot and it took us an hour to get him out. Had to end up hooking 2 wheelers together and then hook my winch to the front of them through a snatch block off a tree and had 3 guys pushing and lifting on it while giving it gas. It was a nightmare. We would probably still be down there if I hadn't had that winch.

[MtnEX]

LOL... good times riding story... sorta... lol.

The setup sounds pretty good with the Houser arms. I kind of always liked stock width until I tried to pick a setup where I could go wide or narrow without thinking it through enough. Afterwards I hated the width on the tight trails we have here but loved the stability. So I kind of like choices.

This sounds like I can set up about 47-47.5" with the arms and 3+2 and 3+6 wheels and I can tuck back to about stock width with 4+1 and 3+5 wheels.

Some will laugh I know... but right now I have the 3+6 Baja's on the rear and stock on the front. So I am an inch wider per side in the rear. I ended up this way because I ordered the 3+6 Baja's for the rear and 2+3 Baja's for the front to hop out 2" total on both ends. I did this figuring I would not have any feedback issues from the wide area riding and for narrow areas I would just flip the fronts and flip the rears and throw on spacers to be stock.

Big LOL... but at the time I had never laid eye on the inside part of a Baja front wheel for it to dawn on my why this would not work. And, wow they were brutal. So I started by having the tires put on my stock rims and got burnt good on having that done. So I was too pissed to go back and get the rears done. Ended up riding it like that before I found an honest price quote on switching the rears... and ended up realizing I still had most of the new found stability just from the rear being wider. So I just left it like that like a hack!

[Fix29]

Big LOL... but at the time I had never laid eye on the inside part of a Baja front wheel for it to dawn on my why this would not work. And, wow they were brutal. So I started by having the tires put on my stock rims and got burnt good on having that done. So I was too pissed to go back and get the rears done. Ended up riding it like that before I found an honest price quote on switching the rears... and ended up realizing I still had most of the new found stability just from the rear being wider. So I just left it like that like a hack!

I feel your pain. I went to Harbor Freight after the last time I had a set of rear tires dismounted and bought a cheap bead breaker. I believe it was around $40 and isn't the highest quality but that thing has paid for itself and way beyond lol.

[MtnEX]

Yeah, I also bought one from Tractor Supply.

I do however badly need to have the long tool ground down and have a piece of white poly or something put on it with countersunk bolts. Maybe an edge grind might even work. But point is it will skin powder coated or painted wheels pretty good I found out... lol.

[2001400exrida]

there is no difference in transmissions between years, so the newer ones failing is based on either bad maintenance or bad rider skill. They have no changed anything in the transmission department since 1999.

[MtnEX]

I thought the transmission gearing ratios were changed?

[Stickman400]

Highly doubt that. I'd almost bet money that they changed the materials that they are made out of, even just slightly, to save a penny or 2 on each one. No company can resist the urge to outsource or use slightly cheaper materials to save money once they start getting so big. It's just the way it is sadly.

[2001400exrida]

I'm not going to bet money, but it's only a myth until some sort of document proves it. I honestly doubt honda would lessen the quality of their machines just to save a dime. The 400ex is not an expensive machine to build and with it being virtually the same for the last 15 years, i can't imagine they would start using cheaper materials on an already solid machine.....they probably haven't done an oz. of research or testing on the 400ex since reverse came out.

I also know for sure you can interchange all transmission gears internally throughout the years. Now, it might be a coincidence that some of the newer ones are falling apart, but i have never heard nor experienced that certain years have lesser quality transmissions.

Mtnex if you're talking about sprocket size differences yes, but if we're talking about internal transmission rations, the gears are identical.

[2001400exrida]

Highly doubt that. I'd almost bet money that they changed the materials that they are made out of, even just slightly, to save a penny or 2 on each one. No company can resist the urge to outsource or use slightly cheaper materials to save money once they start getting so big. It's just the way it is sadly.

that's all fine and dandy if you don't want to believe me. I'm not aware of any cheaper material being used in the trannys, but if you can provide documentation by all means i'll eat crow.

[MtnEX]

Cool... so it was a sprocket gearing change?

[2001400exrida]

in 2005 they changed the gearing. i believe they went from the 15/38 to the 14/39 on the 05+

[ish416]

The newer 400EX's do not have the same fit and finish that the older models had. That should be easily noticeable the first time your ride one. Along with the fact that people are starting to notice issues with the transmissions being a bit rougher / clunkier than they were on the older models, it's easy to speculate that some thing has changed.

As someone who used to work for a Honda parts supplier, I can tell you that we were constantly looking for cheaper materials that would still pass inspection. If you could save 10 cents on every 100 parts, that adds up very quickly. Consider that a single shift is capable of producing 20,000 parts per day, per shift. Over the course of a year, that adds up to be a nice bit of money.

Also, the internal gear ratios were changed on the 05+ models along with sprocket changes.

"For 2005, both Honda and Suzuki made significant changes to their popular 400cc trail quads. Honda’s most noticeable change to the 400EX was with the front-end bodywork. They gave the seven-year-old EX the same front nosepiece and light assembly as their 450R race quad. For 2005, the 400EX is available in red or yellow. As far as mechanical improvements, the Honda got a much-needed feature; reverse, and they also changed the transmission gear ratios of the forward moving gears and final drive sprockets. Up front the countershaft sprocket was raised from a 14 to a 15. Out back the rear sprocket was also raised a tooth to 38. Internally, the gear ratios were bumped up slightly across the board."

From the first paragraph of Dirtwheels March 2005 400cc shootout - http://www.dirtwheelsmag.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=news&mod=News&mid=9A02E3B96F2A415ABC72CB5F516B4C10&tier=3&nid=14AF5783CA624BBD924EE00C9984A092

[2001400exrida]

it's easy to speculate that some thing has changed.

you said it. speculation. Personally, between my 07 and the several 01, 02 and 04 400's that i had, i was not able to tell that the 07 was any clunkier or of lesser quality, felt just as good as any other 400 i've been on. I ran the 07 for 2 years and hundreds of hours of trails with no problems on the transmission.

what do you mean by fit and finish being noticably different?

[MtnEX]

Well I did not mean to start a war. I just had a team mate buy a brand new 2012 and the tranny broke pretty early... then it broke again shortly after he got it back from Honda. So that time he paid to have it done with some additional work.

It broke second gear the first time and I think the second time was just a failure from something done wrong at the dealer.

This made me curious though cause he has had more problems with his in 13 months than I have had on my 13 year old quad.

[ish416]

you said it. speculation. Personally, between my 07 and the several 01, 02 and 04 400's that i had, i was not able to tell that the 07 was any clunkier or of lesser quality, felt just as good as any other 400 i've been on. I ran the 07 for 2 years and hundreds of hours of trails with no problems on the transmission.

what do you mean by fit and finish being noticably different?

Up until the recent models, the EX has been a solid quad. The 2008+ seem to be made rather poorly, especially when compared to the other ones. They just seem ... softer, chassis and everything just doesn't seem as well made, especially the transmissions. It's one of those things that you could immediately tell if you rode one.

I can't really recall anyone I know having serious transmission issues until the 08 refresh. I know of a few people who have had more issues with their 08+ than the majority of people have had with their older EX's. Also, even brand new, the 08+'s were having issues with notchy/clunky shifting, false neutrals and randomly popping out of gear. I am not saying these issues are on all of the 08+ but it certainly seems that way in my experience.

Duster, I don't think you're starting any war. The EX's that I know of are not raced and are ridden by novice/slow riders. Nobody that would abuse them like a racer would. I'm positive that the transmissions will fail on these that I know of. Just not sure when.

[Stickman400]

Also, even brand new, the 08+'s were having issues with notchy/clunky shifting, false neutrals and randomly popping out of gear.

I have these exact issues on mine also, but mine is also 9 years old and had been ridden VERY hard, so I'm gunna assume it's because of me that the transmission is a bit weak an pops out of gear every now and then when banging through them. I have a friend who got a brand new 2012 400X and he let me hop on it to see if I could adjust his clutch for him and it felt really weird compared to mine. Now I know mine is completely built to the hilt, but his felt nothing like mine did when mine was new.

[RNL]

Interesting topic, the new ones I rode seemed just as good, and seemed to be a tad faster in acceleration to me.