Still competitive?

[turdboy]

Hey guys, I ran across a nice 400EX today with a decent GNCC type setup. I started to wonder, would a nice 400EX with aftermarket suspension and wheels/tires have a major disadvantage due to the smaller engine during a cross county or hare scramble race? I currently have an LTR an love it for MX, but it's a bit wide and not properly set up for hare scrambles. I would think a 400EX with suspension, tires, and protection could due very well still. Here are some advantages that come to mind...Lighter, more nimble, very dependable motor. And disadvantages that come to mind...low on power, slower off the line. Does that really matter though? XC racing is about being smooth and picking the correct lines. When I think about XC racing, I don't think about drag racing into a corner to see who can pinch the next guy off. What are your thoughts???

Do I pick up this EX and run it, or do I keep dumping money into my LTR to make it more XC friendly?

[Mtndew99]

400ex is still competitive in local series but the ltr's are really nice when setup for xc

[ish416]

I would think a 400EX with suspension, tires, and protection could due very well still. Here are some advantages that come to mind...Lighter, more nimble, very dependable motor. And disadvantages that come to mind...low on power, slower off the line. Does that really matter though? XC racing is about being smooth and picking the correct lines. When I think about XC racing, I don't think about drag racing into a corner to see who can pinch the next guy off. What are your thoughts???

Do I pick up this EX and run it, or do I keep dumping money into my LTR to make it more XC friendly?

An EX is not lighter, 400lbs wet for the older ones 99-04, and 408lbs wet for the newer ones. A KFX450R weighs 392.5 lbs wet, a YFZ450 weighs 385 lbs wet, LTR450 is 414 lbs wet, 06+ TRX450R 388 lbs wet.

More nimble? I'm confident that any of the current 450's stock could out-handle a stock 400EX through the woods or anywhere else. The 450s are lower, wider, weigh less and also start off with much better suspension. With aftermarket suspension, the 400's handle really well but still aren't up to the same level (though very close) as the 450's with similar suspension mods.

Dependable engine, it is, stock. Although, besides the KTM powered quads, I have never heard of a stock engine failure in any race. Even basic bolt-on (exhaust, intake, rejet/tuner) failures are very rare. However, as soon as you open up the engine, even the most reliable engine will fail when it isn't tuned properly.

Also, in an XC race, getting the holeshot is one of the most important aspects of placing well in a race. In the woods, there usually aren't many places to pass. Where there is room it is usually cutting across a field or something open where the 450s will simply pull away from an EX. Consider that a fully built EX puts down about the same power as a stock 450. Also, the 450's respond to mods much better than an EX does. Any of the stock 450's with just the basics should have no issue pulling away from an EX with an 11:1 piston, stg 2 hotcam, 04-05 450r carb or fcr, full exhaust and filter.

That said, a great rider on a properly built EX could win against a good rider on a 450 in a tight technical trail. However, put the great EX rider on a 450 and the margin of victory would be even larger than it was on the 400.

If the 400EX were still a competitive quad, more people would be riding them instead of selling their EX's and picking up 450s.


I know this sounds negative but it's the honest truth. The EX however is still one of the best all around quads you can get your hands on. With some money invested into them, they are brilliant quads, just not so much for racing any more.

[chronicsmoke]

I'd have to agree with ish, if you're trying to win and battling for points the 450 is a better option.

I'm an MX guy that's started dabbing into the XC world (series is much closer to me) I got beadlocks to suck my width of my 450r in a total 2" so I'll be ~48 overall which is a bit wide, but I can manage.

I'm building my 400ex to practice on/maybe race on (see what it rides like after I'm done, lol) I want to keep as many hours off my MX bike as possible. Last XC race I went to our class was won by a KFX400 (he went 5th overall for the season out of 40 riders too)

[RNL]

Read this from a few years back, it can be done.

http://www.atvriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?456991-2008-Honda-400ex-Dealer-show-GNCC-Build

[ish416]

Read this from a few years back, it can be done.

http://www.atvriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?456991-2008-Honda-400ex-Dealer-show-GNCC-Build

I remember that thread. He raced the sport class. That consists of the following quads:

Artic Cat DVX 400
Honda TRX 250X/250R/300EX/400EX
Kawasaki KFX 400
Kawaki Mojave 250
Suzuki LTZ 400
Yamaha Raptor 250/350
Yamaha Blaster 200

That was found here - http://gnccracing.com/pages/class-detail

450's aren't allowed in that class. I believe the best he managed was 19th overall in a race. Had 450's been allowed into that class, this conversation would not have happened.

[2001400exrida]

I see hundy's right up in the top 20 racers on a regular basis. This all goes back to the power vs handling debate. Many guys think power wins, and if it's a huge wide open circuit, then it will, but in the woods, suspension and rider win that race 9 times out of 10.

[ben300]

I remember that thread. He raced the sport class. That consists of the following quads:

Artic Cat DVX 400
Honda TRX 250X/250R/300EX/400EX
Kawasaki KFX 400
Kawaki Mojave 250
Suzuki LTZ 400
Yamaha Raptor 250/350
Yamaha Blaster 200

That was found here - http://gnccracing.com/pages/class-detail

450's aren't allowed in that class. I believe the best he managed was 19th overall in a race. Had 450's been allowed into that class, this conversation would not have happened.


Thats 19th overall in the am race...that consists of the following: all c classes (and if you dont think the c-class guys at the gncc's are competitive or fast, line up with the 16-19c or the 24+c class and let me know what you think), sportsman a/b, women am and women pro, the utility classes, the senior and super senior class (super dave simmons is faster than anyone posting at this current moment, on this forum right now), school boy (cody collier won the AM overall title this running an apex 250 quad...that means, ya you guessed it, he beat everyone running a 450, on a 250!!!:eek2:)....and then the loley sport class.

in most aspects, the 400, whether it be the honda, suzuki, or kawi, are all still very competitive in the lower classes or the classes geared towards that. if you look at the GNCC results over teh past couple years, the top 3-5 guys in the sport class always finish in the top 50 for the AM race. Thats beating a ton of 450's considering that there are usually 250+ quads overall in the AM race. Hell, this year, scott sleppy placed 11th overall on a 400 at th unadilla gncc in the AM race...that was 11th overall out of 356 quads total. thats pretty impressive.

sure its all rider and scott could probalby beat most of the B class guys as well, but the bikes can still be competitive. i race a 400 (mainly cause i put a bunch of money in it to run the sport class, and i dont want to invest in a 450 right now), and i am pretty competitive in the class locally and usually finish in the top half of the AM race at the GNCC's.


it all comes down to a rider. if your looking to get better, and dont care about setting the world on fire, or just want to compete in the sport class, then a 400 is gonna do ok and will be competitive in the C class and wiht most be class guys. if you want to get better though, and are serious about climbing through the c to b to a classes...your gonna want a 450. as the competition gets stiffer, the 400 will be at a disadvantage.

[ish416]

I am aware of what 19th overall consists of. He won his class. I didn't want people seeing that the guy won a championship on an EX when he wasn't actually racing against 450's (for points).

I was simply stating that had the sport class allowed 450's, that an EX would not be winning.

[Transmatic]

Since we are on the topic of racing (not to hijack the thread) but can someone explain to me the different classes and styles of racing? I'm a trail rider, have been all my life, and love racing myself, so I'm interested to learn more. Or if anyone can throw up a good link that I can go to educate myself.

[2001400exrida]

I am aware of what 19th overall consists of. He won his class. I didn't want people seeing that the guy won a championship on an EX when he wasn't actually racing against 450's (for points).

I was simply stating that had the sport class allowed 450's, that an EX would not be winning.

nobody was saying the 400's are winning dude, the point being made is that they are still placing very well competing against 450's. The winners of most of these races are going to be some top riders and they won't dare put themselves on a 400, but to see that the 400 is placing pretty well overall against 450's is what we are getting at. The hundies can be competitive, there is absolutely no doubt about that.

[RNL]

My point of bringing up that old thread was to point out you can be competitive on a local level with a 400 in a tight course. If you want to win, of course get a 450. The op asked if he could be competitive, which imo you could be, rider skill pending of course. I just thought it was cool build that Garon Davis did.

[400man]

the last race I did I was so out of shape if was embarrassing , getting arm pump like 20 mins into the race. it was a MUDDY race though, which didn't help and 90% of my race I did without goggles and trying to just finish and not get blinded by mud in my face. I got a bad start, but as soon as I got in the woods there were 450s stuck in some places and 400's too that wernt setup the best. I never got stuck myself, but out in the fields where the real thick mud was, I didn't have the power to pull a high gear through the mud, and arm pump didn't help. I had a few 450s blow by me like I was nothing.

if you are in shape and can ride, and are not a pro level racer looking to win every race, just get the 400 and go race and have fun.



http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/ky2stroker/010_zps59157b9b.jpg (http://s417.photobucket.com/user/ky2stroker/media/010_zps59157b9b.jpg.html)

[RNL]

the last race I did I was so out of shape if was embarrassing , getting arm pump like 20 mins into the race. it was a MUDDY race though, which didn't help and 90% of my race I did without goggles and trying to just finish and not get blinded by mud in my face. I got a bad start, but as soon as I got in the woods there were 450s stuck in some places and 400's too that wernt setup the best. I never got stuck myself, but out in the fields where the real thick mud was, I didn't have the power to pull a high gear through the mud, and arm pump didn't help. I had a few 450s blow by me like I was nothing.

if you are in shape and can ride, and are not a pro level racer looking to win every race, just get the 400 and go race and have fun.



http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/ky2stroker/010_zps59157b9b.jpg (http://s417.photobucket.com/user/ky2stroker/media/010_zps59157b9b.jpg.html)


Key words......."have fun". To many guys take the stuff to serious to where it loses the fun factor. My snowmobile friends are like that, worried who went 105 mph compared to 103 mph across the lake.

[blacknblue#2]

the last race I did I was so out of shape if was embarrassing , getting arm pump like 20 mins into the race. it was a MUDDY race though, which didn't help and 90% of my race I did without goggles and trying to just finish and not get blinded by mud in my face. I got a bad start, but as soon as I got in the woods there were 450s stuck in some places and 400's too that wernt setup the best. I never got stuck myself, but out in the fields where the real thick mud was, I didn't have the power to pull a high gear through the mud, and arm pump didn't help. I had a few 450s blow by me like I was nothing.

if you are in shape and can ride, and are not a pro level racer looking to win every race, just get the 400 and go race and have fun.



http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/ky2stroker/010_zps59157b9b.jpg (http://s417.photobucket.com/user/ky2stroker/media/010_zps59157b9b.jpg.html)

Is that a banshee behind you? 2 hours at race pace on that thing.....That dude is a beast hahah

[ben300]

Is that a banshee behind you? 2 hours at race pace on that thing.....That dude is a beast hahah

passed at dude on my 2nd lap at the gusher who was running what i believed to be a black and red banshee...he was just putting by that point

[DragonGunner]

Raced alot on the old built 1999 EX, in XC type it did great in the woods against anything and everything. But when things opened up in the fields and such and I had been dogging a quad in front of me I couldn't pass alot of the times. They would open up their 450's and all I could do to keep up, then back in tight woods and they would go slow, and couldn't pass....man that (&^%%^ a guy off bad. Finally built a quad that can haul around them in the open areas...now I am fighting age...lol.

[RNL]

here's a guy running a 2012 400X in some harescrambles, mods are HMF, Hotcam stage 1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB5AdfSzV0E

[400man]

here's a guy running a 2012 400X in some harescrambles, mods are HMF, Hotcam stage 1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB5AdfSzV0E

wow, I wish I was even close to that fast in the woods. I can ride like that in the trails around my house, but at a race, I cant keep pace like that, :o

[RNL]

He has some chasis mods to, a xc link, 450r shocks and I think Xrex tires, and Flexx bars. But yeah he's pretty good, but he hasn't been racing lately which sucks. I really enjoyed his vids.

[Blodg]

Key words......."have fun". To many guys take the stuff to serious to where it loses the fun factor. My snowmobile friends are like that, worried who went 105 mph compared to 103 mph across the lake.

Hands down some of the best advice for us quad guys or really for any hobby. Many times people forget the reason they chose a hobby in the first place is to have fun.

And to the original question there is no doubt that a 400EX with the right setup can still be competitive in the woods or a XC race at the local level against 450's. There are a whole lot of guys riding 450's just because when they would actually turn faster and more consistent laps on a 400EX.

[CJM]

Id say thats pretty danged slow to me, but then again not everyone is at the same skill level. my trails look sort like that video, maybe slightly more tight in spots and wide open in others. Generally when I had the 400ex I was cranking easily the middle/top of 3rd if not bottom/middle of forth in some spots and then down to the top of 2nd in other spots, generally flying along on the throttle. The 450 Im generally topped 2nd/3rd if not 4th b/c of the way its geared.

Racing like that is fun, takes quite a bit of skill, as sometimes you need to pick the best line or avoid obstacles.

Oh and before it happens. No, do not quote or reply to me-you know who you are. Your opinion is not welcome about me or my post and will only cause an argument. Thank you!

[cheater13]

Hell yes, these 400ex's are still competitive.

Atleast in drag racing they are. :D

I love my 400ex to death, but wouldn't mind having a 450er.

[MtnEX]

Well, here is my opinion... YES... for some riders it is absolutely competitive.

The pilot of the GNCC build link previously referenced is Garon Davis and I am pretty sure no one in this thread could beat him on a 450 at a GNCC. Nuff said.

Last GNCC season Marshal Goings finished 2nd overall to Dave Simmons at Steele Creek GNCC... and overalled the Big Buck GNCC. I don't know what more needs to be said than that.

The video links... McLamb213 is my team mate and although he is our only rider on a 400cc he holds his own just fine and it is a very minimal budget build with some advice and tuning by yours truly. It's plenty competitive for XC racing.


What it really comes down to for XC is the equipment, the setup and the individual rider as far as the 400 vs 450 thing.


I will be the absolute first to admit that there ain't no way this side of... that you can get the best of me on any 400 even built to the gills in a short run. Just ain't gonna happen. But over the course of 2 hours on that thing... yes it can happen pretty easy.

This is because of 3 things.

1- I can be really fast for a little while and do have a power advantage, etc.

2- My 450 is not yet fully set up to it's handling potential

3- I am not in the best shape and conditioning of my life.

4- My 450 power delivery is very exhausting to ride from the minute the flag drops


Myself, I have a lot of time and boredom on my old 400. But I can tell you first hand that I have to adjust a lot now, but I can ride the fool out of McLamb213's quad and although it can't hang with my 450 corner to corner or in a field section... the key is that I can ride the fool out of it for a much longer period of time.

The 450 wears me down early and I begin to consistently only be able to ride as fast as I want in patchy bursts and my lap times will usually consistently fall off as the day wears on. I will actually get tired enough that when I get to the places were I can really hammer down and let it eat, I am so fatigued I can't do it because I am no certain I can hold on to it... lol.

So for me, I am 100% certain that I am faster the first few miles on my 450. But I am also 100% certain that at the end of 2 hours I would be faster overall on a well equipped 400 because of me. In fact I am sure enough of this that as soon as I get my 450 completely finished and dialed in I will probably drag out my 400 and start getting it race ready next unless my health, fitness and conditioning improves a great deal between now and then. In fact I think if I can get them both good enough where I easily transition back and forth well, what I have in mind is to prep the 400 for my National bike just to run the few GNCC's I will want to run next year since they can tend to run long. And it will be good so that I don't put time and risk on my 450 and have to try to get it cleaned up and prepped for the next weekend for my points racing.

[turdboy]

A lot of good posts, I have to agree with MtnEX. A lot of times I feel like the 450 wears me out too much, where as if I was riding a slightly underpowered machine I could run it harder while maintaining my energy level. It would be cool to see the difference in laps times between a 400 and a 450 with the same rider for the same amount of time on the same course. Does the power pay off? Or does maintaining a higher energy level pay off? I know at the end of a race I don't use nearly the amount of power that my quad offers, but I do know that I just want to lay down in the grass and drink Gatorade for about 4 hours.....haha

[2001400exrida]

The pilot of the GNCC build link previously referenced is Garon Davis and I am pretty sure no one in this thread could beat him on a 450 at a GNCC. Nuff said.



glad somebody mentioned this. Not starting arguments, but hey when somebody says a rider like Garon Davis is slow, i mean we're not going to let that one slide. Trust us Marc your skill level not on the same page as Garon Davis. Maybe the video makes it look slow, but if you think it's slow you should definitely get into some GNCC racing bud, you might win it all! Post up some of your trail vids CJM and we can compare your speeds to the video linked in this thread.

you want to see some slow riding, watch me out at southern illinois.....the video is kind of long, but this is about as fast as i like to go on the old 400.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHy2sADRoXA

[2001400exrida]

here's another one of my favs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUeiKEEM8g4

start at the 2:00 mark to get some action.

[wilkin250r]

I cleaned up the thread and sent PMs. Again.

To the original poster, I think there are a variety of valid points in this thread, and you'll need to find those that apply most to your particular riding style. Of course the "90% rider, 10% machine" will always apply and can go without saying, so the two major focal points I saw were:

1. Terrain and opportunity. When you can't get out of 2nd gear because of the terrain, both machines are essentially equal, the extra power of the 450 is irrelevant. But those areas often can't be used to pass anyways, so THAT is almost irrelevant. The areas that CAN be used to pass are generally more wide-open, and here the 450 has the clear advantage. And you might need that advantage. If you've only got a few opportunities to pass, you might need each and every one.

2. Rider fatigue. Some members are saying the 450 wears them out quickly, and they would actually post faster lap times in the long run on a 400EX due to fatigue. This can be significant, but what I didn't see mentioned was other riders and the effect they caused. Even if you are capable of a faster overall lap time than the guy in front, if you can't pass him because he has you overpowered in the straights and open sections, where does that put you? Right behind him on the podium.

[MtnEX]

Yeah, if you can ride the wheels off a 450 for 2-2.5 hours and honestly not be loosing time to fatigue the 450 does level the playing field some in the straights and stuff. Me... I am not that fit. I push the 400 to it's limits and the 450 pushes me to my limit. When I first got my 450 I was like yeah... I am way faster on this... and I was. But I was in better shape then and also was not running a long race, which is a different animal. When I got it out to the track the first time I was like wait a minute here... lol. I was gassed on the first lap and lost lap time on the first lap. Second lap I ran even harder at the first of it making passes and ended up loosing 4 more minutes lap time on the first lap. I tried to regroup and settle in but still never could even get back down to my first lap laptime. I finished like 14th.

I still had some of those same fights on my 450 being stuck behind slower folks with nowhere to go and struggled to pass in the open areas too still. Tired... slow pokes straight pinned in the fields, etc.

So I don't know. 6 of one, half dozen of another. Competitive still yes for sure. Will you work harder technically on a 400 yes, physically no. Will some folks be better off on a 450... sure.

[RNL]

Yeah, if you can ride the wheels off a 450 for 2-2.5 hours and honestly not be loosing time to fatigue the 450 does level the playing field some in the straights and stuff. Me... I am not that fit. I push the 400 to it's limits and the 450 pushes me to my limit. When I first got my 450 I was like yeah... I am way faster on this... and I was. But I was in better shape then and also was not running a long race, which is a different animal. When I got it out to the track the first time I was like wait a minute here... lol. I was gassed on the first lap and lost lap time on the first lap. Second lap I ran even harder at the first of it making passes and ended up loosing 4 more minutes lap time on the first lap. I tried to regroup and settle in but still never could even get back down to my first lap laptime. I finished like 14th.

I still had some of those same fights on my 450 being stuck behind slower folks with nowhere to go and struggled to pass in the open areas too still. Tired... slow pokes straight pinned in the fields, etc.

So I don't know. 6 of one, half dozen of another. Competitive still yes for sure. Will you work harder technically on a 400 yes, physically no. Will some folks be better off on a 450... sure.


Great minds think alike.

[2001400exrida]

right on MtnEX, you said it well. Especially guys who love their 400's, they will be the first ones to tell you they would prefer to ride it over the 450's. I just wish i was half as fast as the guy in the video.

[RNL]

I'll give my situation. The trails I ride up in Northern Michigan are tight and twisty through the woods. I have owned several 400's over the years, all stock. I sold my last one in a pinch for money. Once I was established finacially I thought I wanted more power, and I did. I bought a 2012 YFZ 450, the new ones with the carbs, not the EFI R. They are suppose to be better for trails as they are not as wide, and have cams more geared towards low end power. It's a great machine, fast as heck, and light. It's way faster than my old 400, as it has an HMF Competition pipe and jetted. I used to ride with 3 other 400ex's, all 04's, and all have slip ons and one has a 1 tooth lower front sprocket. When we started off I was faster through the trails but not by a whole lot. It always suprised me, I was hauling can but then I would look over my shoulder and those 400's were hanging right with me. Well about an hour into the ride with them in front of me I found myself pushing to stay with them, sweating and getting more fatigued. Now I'm not in triathlon shape, but I'm not overweight and sacking it either. Bottom line for me at age 34, my 450 wears the heck out of me way faster and actually makes me slower. I took turns riding the modded 400's and thought to myself why didn't I just mod my 400, the seating position was better and I liked how the power came on much better. Also the seating position on the 450 is not as comfortable and the seat makes my can hurt. For a pro level racer the 450 is the way to go, no question asked. Or for younger guys the 450's are where it's at. For aging weekend dinks like myself, after riding both, I like the 400's. Or maybe I just totally suck at riding lol!!!!