Rumors.....?

[Logan #34's Dad]

I heard from a pretty reliable source that the ATVA are planning to check the legality of the top 3 machines in the youth classes the next two races. Apparently they have been getting a lot of complaints but no one has the money to actually pay for a tear down. They didn't say which classes but....
Cheaters beware...

[jake55]

nothing like advertising to give those who may be flirting with the rule book a week to make things right.
let those who cheat get called out as cheaters, IF indeed anyone is pushing the grey area's
anyway, this should be done on a random basis ALL season imo.

[LT80]

Geez rocky..I agree, let em hang.
How about a mile up the road we get a sign:: COP AHEAD~SLOW DOWN.
LOL
And...Where were you (Unadilla)? I had a donut for you..:devil: :D

"this should be done on a random basis ALL season imo"
Shouldn't need it at all. :(
Teach your kids to be cheaters..boo.

[edwardsp&b]

LOL!!!!!!! An advance warning to cheaters.......Wonder who let the cat out of the bag? Wonder if it would benefit them too? I wonder who will be the tech that opens up the motors and declares illegal or not? Unbelievable.........

[#404's Dad]

I agree they should do random tear downs here and there although if caught they would just give them an option on how they'd like their punishment like this past round. I was not involved nor could I be beings we are not in that class but I was shocked to hear how that went down but then again not really. I also think the cost of tearing someone down should be more reasonable, if it were I think people would be a lot more honest knowing that their competitor could actually afford to tear their *** down!!

[hensonfamfun]

Well.......sounds like they are warned and have a week to get it right.

[jake55]

who got protested? first ive heard of it.

[Logan #34's Dad]

Geez rocky..I agree, let em hang.
How about a mile up the road we get a sign:: COP AHEAD~SLOW DOWN.
LOL
And...Where were you (Unadilla)? I had a donut for you..:devil: :D

"this should be done on a random basis ALL season imo"
Shouldn't need it at all. :(
Teach your kids to be cheaters..boo.

Sorry we didn't make it to Dilla...I'm hoping to teach my rider that I WILL stay home if he does not hold up his end of the deal. I spend too much time and money for him not to give 100%.
I more posted this - not to give a warning to cheaters as much as to give hope to the ones of us who believe we are being beat by cheaters....I guess this post is doing both. Either way....I sure hope the threat of tear downs keep mechanics honest.
I wish they'd do or threaten to do this all season. If they did it this way then it'd not be so personal for someone to tear someone down. Which is part of the reason we just don't challenge the legality of equipment.
I promise that IF I had the funds...I'd tore down quite a few...and not to be a jack-off(LT80) but just to know...

[neveready]

So it seems many are mad that folks have been warned and given time to change?
Seems many feel theyve been beat by an unfair advantage?
Just proves that if the teardowns werent so expensive or maybe for the sake of friendships they'd be more frequent??
But, really as 404s dad said they'd just get an option on the class they wanna run that motor in instead of getting in trouble. The way I understand it so long as you never read the rules then they don't apply to you, and I didnt start that deal but it does apply to me and the more I now know about it the more fired up I am!! So everyone burn your rulebooks and do whatever you want, just pretend you had no clue when questioned and you'll be ok!

[Logan #34's Dad]

From the responses on here and the calls I've got...there are quite a few people that believe there are people cheating. Its a shame that there are factors holding people back from checking the legality of their competitors.

[ontargetracing]

How much is a teardown? Maybe a few of you can split the cost. Just don't get caught conspiring on something you may get banned from a race lmao.. Buy seriously, if they are cheating don't they have to pay ?

[Logan #34's Dad]

K. PROTESTS & PENALTIES
1. Protests must comply with the AMA Racing Rulebook. Protests must in writing and delivered to the referee no more than 30 minutes after results have been posted.

2. The following protest fees shall apply at all National events:

a. Visual Protests: $100 per item or component protested;
b. Technical Protests: $100 per item or component protested,
c. Plus the following, if applicable:
i. Teardown Fees: $200 Two-Stroke/$500 Four-Stroke
ii. Required Engine Removal: $100
iii. Fuel Test Deposit: $325
d. Administrative Protests: $100 per incident.
3. In the event of a technical protest involving a teardown or removal of the engine from the frame, the protested rider may elect for the inspection to occur either before or after the final moto involving the protested machine. In the event the inspection is made after the final moto, the machine will be impounded between motos and/or the engine sealed pending the inspection, with the exception that minor repairs and maintenance may be made under Event Organizer supervision.

4. The claiming rule value is three times the Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price (MSRP).

5. Penalties will be assessed at the discretion of the official based on the severity of the offense, and may include one or more of the following: position(s), lap(s), time adjustment, disqualification, suspension, loss of championship points, fine, probation, warning, etc. In the Limited classes, if a violation is deemed by the referee to be cosmetic in nature, with no performance advantage or willful misconduct involved, a warning or fine may be issued in lieu of disqualification.

[Logan #34's Dad]

So, I read it as: $100 for bore, $100 for stroke.....plus $200 for 2stroke teardown, then IF the person doing the teardown wants the engine out...another $100.

Then with this bunch (ATVA/AMA) depending on who you are....what's the penalty? Will it be worth it or not?
I can tell you this, in the past I've approached the officials about a protest and they acted like I kicked them in the bird! They don't want the drama.
Another small issue is: Alot of people (families and rider) are under large umbella's as far as sponsors so who they gonna get to do a tear down that is NOT connected to that family or rider somehow.
I did watch Hetrick do a tear down years ago under the eye of others and all went well.

I personally would take a teardown as a complement to my rider and engine builder. AND if I ever tear someone down, its because I had my stuff as good as I could get it, and got smoked...then I've just gotta know I or my rider have more work to do...nothing personal. I'm also smart enough to know when a rider is just better than mine...

[t.hale17]

If you "know" there cheating then why hold back even if you don't have deep pockets? We all have fuel money to go home on. When you win the protest you get your fuel money back n you can make it home. But sometimes I think someone wants the easy way out. just because their team/kid doesn't win we want to think that someone else is cheating. If some gets tore down and are proven not to be cheaters then that is the ultimate complement and there should not be any hard feelings. I just believe there are less cheaters than you think.

[Logan #34's Dad]

I don't see anywhere in the rules where IF the guy is cheating...the original protestor gets his money back... Sections A4.13 and A4.14 does address the "payback" issue but it says "protest fee"(which is what?) Also, in the AMA rule book (A4.3) is says there is a $1000 filing fee for a technical protest and $500 for all other protests..which they could require to be paid as well..we all fall under that rule book also... You get back the $1000 IF your protest prevails but it says nothing about the rest of the money.
With that being said, I believe we would use the supplemental rules I posted above...So, $400 to $500 to check the cc's of an engine...
t.hale17...I believe your right about less cheaters than ya think. I believe I've been doing this long enough to know when I'm being out motored or out ridden....

[ontargetracing]

In any "normal" series you get your money back if they are found to be cheating and if they are legit they get the tear down fee to put their motor back together. I don't see why the ATVA would be any different but who knows. An email to them should be able to clear things up and you will have it in writing just in case.

[neveready]

I just believe there are less cheaters than you think.

I'm not sure anywhere I feel anyone said there were a lot of them but it does seem that several here feel they have known or seen someone make an unfair advantage. I agree though with all the money were spending on everything else, if you honestly feel that strongly about it then put the money down for the protest. None of us would hesitate to spend a few hundred bucks on the next greatest part or if it was something we needed for racing. But, I also agree with rocky. It's not so much about the money always but more about who you upset since behind the scenes many ride for or have affiliation with some good team that we'd like our kid to be on.

I am by no means saying that any team would promote malicious activity. I do know however after working with many parents over the years that some will stop at nothing to insure little junior wins no matter the cost or rules. I therefore agree and think it should be standard and mandatory to have random tear downs. Most other big sports have them.

I'm still having a major issue with how the officials are handling the rules and blatant violations. I personally know of two issues handled totally incorrect and unfair this year. So I just wonder who is going to handle these tears downs and what's done in the outcome of an issue? Does that depend who you are? Or what umbrella you're under? It sure seems to with the other issues.

Rocky, if you find a guy at a crime scene still holding the bloody knife and severed head does "I didn't know I couldn't do that" make it ok? Or since you didn't actually see that guy technically "commit" the crime make it ok? I mean has anyone ever read the Ohio law book? Or federal law book? So we teach and promote that ignorance of the law gives right to disobey it? Try that one somewhere and see how that goes. Aren't the rules the rules no matter what? Seems not in the ATVA MX series... Sure leaves a sour taste in my mouth. What's the point in a sanctioned series? Or a rule book?

[jake55]

my kid's the best one out there, if he's getting beat, that kid has to be cheating!!!!
unfortunatly that's the mind set of most of the mini parents.
dont seem to hear these issues coming out of the amature ranks, just us mini parents.

[edwardsp&b]

LOL!!!!!!!!! If you think there aren't cheaters showing up and racing, you are sorely mistaken.........Ive been around racing all my life, and there is always one constant.......Some people will do whatever it takes to win, and that includes cheating!!!!! They are gonna cheat, because they have never been taught to lose with humility!

What yall should be pissed about, is what Meyer referred to about the blatant abusing of the rules...........Ask yourself this.....What would happen if say a Gforce sponsored quad got to the line, wouldn't crank, and the owner tells the official that they mistakenly brought the wrong quad to the line??????? Ill tell you what would happen, the protest money would be flowing around the track worse than a rapper "making it rain" in a strip club.....There were some that day that questioned the official at the line on the legality of that switch, and they were blown off like it was no big deal.................

Newsflash.......Its not just the weather that's keeping people from running Nat's..............

[jay-r]

If you suspect someone of cheating, then protest. That is why it is there. If it is too expensive, go in with another parent and do it together. I speak from experience. People love to talk about how others are cheating, the rumors spread like wildfire. Then, the accused become labeled as cheaters. They are guilty until proven innocent. We were labeled as cheaters for a couple of years, because my daughter won races and people looked for an excuse to why they were beat by a little girl. Finally, this year at the nationals, a competitor of ours had heard enough talk from other people and put his money up. We were informed in staging of the second moto that we were being protested. The official escorted us off the track after the moto to the Baldwin tent. We had to skip the podium interview, and I was instructed to get my tools and remove what was required to measure the bore and stroke. I pulled the fenders, seat, tank, drained coolant, and removed the head. The offical measured the bore and I rotated the crank for them to measure the stroke. We were legal and received the $200 the protester had paid. The protester and I shook hands and he shook my daughter's hand and told us good job. There were no hard feelings, I took it as a compliment and Jordyn was happy because I gave her the money. She was the reason the quad was fast, not the motor! I do not know exactly how much he paid for the protest, but I do not believe it was much, if anything over $200.

The cheater talk is not good for the sport. I believe that there is way more talk of cheating than there is actual cheating going on. But, we will never know as long as people talk about it and don't really want to know the truth. It is amazing how the rumors grow and people become unjustly labeled!

Edwards, this is not in response to the incident you speak of. That is just strange and I don't know all of the details and the rules of a quad dropped behind the gate not being able to be switched. I know you can not run a different quad in moto 2 than moto 1. That has proven to be a tough rule to enforce.

[edwardsp&b]

I was talking to a guy this weekend who is BIG in racing go carts for big money......He said they tech inspect the top 8 after every race........He said that racing usually ends around 11pm and there has been nights they haven't left until 7am the next day.......Keep in mind these races are for thousands of dollars, which would warrant such inspections. He also said it is not uncommon for the top 5 or so, to be DQed for failing inspection........

[Logan #34's Dad]

My "stroker" crank has arrived! Tear ME down... LMAO!
Think I can squeeze it in a set of CR cases and no one notice?

[desratt]

From my experience they measure bore and stroke.

[#404's Dad]

I was told this weekend that Loretta's is where its gonna go down and that they are targeting riders that were crazy fast early on and then tapered off and riders that were mid pack and then all the sudden have shot to the top. Should be interesting when it all goes down.

[t.hale17]

I sure hope it does! Rumors can sure hurt somebody's reputation when everyone one says they "know" someone is cheating but won't put there money up to see. Rumors hurt a lot more than than tearing some down and proving that the kid is fast and they have the best mechanics. I was truly hurt this weekend to hear that a lot of people are accusing my self of cheating. We will be at Lorettas and lord willing we will pull some dominant holeshots. So if you wanta tear us down we will accept it as a compliment! Next year Logan will be running the same cvt 50 that Lucas has now, and our semi stock will be sold after moto 2 to another rider that will be running the nats next year so you might as wellfigure out were not cheating now. I will take it as a compliment n boys said there ok with it as well. I will allso offer to let someone hold a exta $500 from my pocket and award it to the winner of the protest. So what do you have to loose? I either want to see a protest or see some shut mouths. Everyones mouths got someone upset with me this weekend because he started to believe there lies. That terrible!!!!

[#404's Dad]

I think you will be fine, You two seem to have worked past the issue this weekend and I was happy to see you two talk it out and I doubt anyone else is gonna tear ya down. As for rumors there will always be rumors of the fast ones cheating, that's racing and especially in the 50 Limited Class. Take the rumors as a compliment as well, I know we always have.



I sure hope it does! Rumors can sure hurt somebody's reputation when everyone one says they "know" someone is cheating but won't put there money up to see. Rumors hurt a lot more than than tearing some down and proving that the kid is fast and they have the best mechanics. I was truly hurt this weekend to hear that a lot of people are accusing my self of cheating. We will be at Lorettas and lord willing we will pull some dominant holeshots. So if you wanta tear us down we will accept it as a compliment! Next year Logan will be running the same cvt 50 that Lucas has now, and our semi stock will be sold after moto 2 to another rider that will be running the nats next year so you might as wellfigure out were not cheating now. I will take it as a compliment n boys said there ok with it as well. I will allso offer to let someone hold a exta $500 from my pocket and award it to the winner of the protest. So what do you have to loose? I either want to see a protest or see some shut mouths. Everyones mouths got someone upset with me this weekend because he started to believe there lies. That terrible!!!!

[Logan #34's Dad]

I was told this weekend that Loretta's is where its gonna go down and that they are targeting riders that were crazy fast early on and then tapered off and riders that were mid pack and then all the sudden have shot to the top. Should be interesting when it all goes down.
Well, at least one fella did not heed the warning.... had at least one DQ...

[nastynotchback1]

LOL You should never tear down 2 legal quads when your running a 70cc in the 50cvt class.

[#404's Dad]

LOL You should never tear down 2 legal quads when your running a 70cc in the 50cvt class.

LMAO now that's funny right there, who was this genius??

[jay-r]

Got to love the drama at Loretta's. This is one for the books. I love this attitude, "you have to be cheating because we are and you are beating us!" Lol. I will let those involved give the specifics. :D

[nastynotchback1]

#29.Don't know the name but i was present for the tear down's.

[hensonfamfun]

Im not going to say but would look for the DQ on the page.


Hurricane Mills, Tennessee


Results: OverallResults: Moto 1Results: Moto 2

36.1 - 50 CVT (6-8) - Overall Finish Positions View LaptimesMoto 1Moto 2 Points for this class

Overall Nbr Name Moto 1 Moto 2 Points Earned
1st #171 LUCAS DUNNING - DRR
CERULEAN, KY 1st 1st 30
2nd #98 LOGAN HICKERSON - APX
LINDEN, TN 5th 3rd 25
3rd #88 COLLIN EDWARDS - DRR
HOBART, IN 3rd 5th 21
4th #111 BRANDON LYNCH - DRR
COLUMBIA, MO 7th 2nd 18
5th #296 HADEN SKELLETT - DRR
NORTH PORT, FL 6th 4th *16
6th #6 DAWSON HARRIGER - DRR
LOCKE, NY 9th 7th 15
7th #700 BODIE DERRER - DRR
ATLANTA, IN 10th 10th 14
8th #1 BARRETT CUSHMAN - DRR
THOMSON, GA 4th 16th 13
9th #41 BRANDON BASSANI - DRR
SUSSEX, NJ 8th 13th 12
10th #6/ RYAN BEST - APX
CROSS LANES, WV 12th 11th 11
11th #48 GRANT OLSON - DRR
WHITEHALL, WI 16th 9th 10
12th #11 CHRISTOPHER PARRISH - APX
GARDENDALE, TX DNF 6th *9
13th #204 TERRELL HOWELL - DRR
TEMBROKE, KY 14th 12th 8
14th #119 JOEY WIDMER - DRR
W LAFAYETTE, IN 13th 14th 7
15th #199 JOSHUA KING - APX
FORT WORTH, TX 11th 17th 6
16th #71 IAN JUICA - DRR
ALLENTOWN, PA 15th 15th 5
DQ #29 DYLAN PAYNE - APX
RUCKERSVILLE, VA DQ DQ 0


Return to Main Results Menu Total Entries: 17

[#404's Dad]

Damn that sucks, companies like mine make a note of things like this for future reference, worst part is it hurts the child, the child has no control over what the parent does but in racing the child does pay the price when caught cheating :ermm:

[hensonfamfun]

Damn that sucks, companies like mine make a note of things like this for future reference, worst part is it hurts the child, the child has no control over what the parent does but in racing the child does pay the price when caught cheating :ermm:

Heres what REALLY sucks. Look at the points and races. #29 was at Steel City and Birch. He finished 2nd overall at both races. He was in between Dunning and Skellett. Hypothetical......Imagine if he was not there and Skellett did not have to work to try to pass a 70 CVT in the 50 CVT class? What would have happened if Skellett would have won both races????(Hale this is hypothetical so don't get mad!) Look at the points at those two races and you cant tell me that those races that #29 cheated in did not have an impact on a National Championship!! I bet Skellett would have been at Redbud!!!! I wonder what the cost for those two trips were for Skellett and his family from Florida were?? In my opinion a DQ is getting off easy. They knew they were cheating and disrespected and cheated everyone in that class and series. 404 you are right i feel sorry for that kid but its hard to feel bad for him when his dad cheated all the other kids in that class. AT Steel City he cheated #13 Casey Shaffer out of a plaque (was 11th overall and would have got 10th had #29 not been there) and for the little guys and gals thats what they love.....a plaque to hang on their wall!!! What goes around comes around. Food for thought!!

[skyeryder]

Have to agree it's also sad for that kid that is 11th in points and won't get invited to banquet. (Didn't look at points might not even have had enough races)
Hopefully this will deter future cheaters....

[Logan #34's Dad]

Hopefully this will deter future cheaters....

Unfortunatley It will not. In my opinion, The ATVA should mandate the possibility that at any time THEY have the right to check for rules compliance... I believe the fear of being exposed as a cheater would deter people from trying it IF they know that the sactioning body may just check your machine out.
For the most part, we all sit and watch a "equal" machine smoke us to turn one and just assume his builder is better or he has more money to make it faster, ect. and do not protest...SO a guy could show up to the 1st couple races and beat the pants off ya, get a sizable points lead before we dad's get the nerve to actually file a protest...by then the cheater puts in a legal motor and becomes mortal and we dad's then don't follow through cause we are now close to or beating that machine.
It's a vicious cycle.

[edwardsp&b]

After thinking about it like that, your right Henson......It's sad......What's even sadder is the ones that get away with it because of who they are!
I reckon if your gonna cheat, at least win!! I feel for the kid, because at that age, he probably didn't know what was going on......

[jake55]

cheaters suck, shame on them!!
also, shame on those who cry foul but dont take proper action to protest. no excuse not to have cash in your pocket everytime you go to the line just in case you see something that does not seem right during the course of the moto. let's face it, a few hundred bucks is chump change compared to what we spend to have our stuff right and travel.

[edwardsp&b]

Mr Rob, Its not always motor size or something that's easy to protest. Where is Bruce Carson at to tell his story.....A couple of years ago at Lorretta's a certain big name racer in the 50 class had a bad gate pick.....He was all the way to the inside and when the gate dropped as he was cleaning the bike out he pushed it out about 10ft from the gate. He then looks at Bruce and says something along the lines of "Screw off, Protest me if you want".......Ask Carson, Im sure he will tell yall the story, because it happened to him. By the rules book, you are only supposed to have on mech/dad at the gate.....That gets abused all the time. Or how about switching quads on the gate, because it wont crank/or run properly, when the rules clearly state that you have to run same chassis on Sunday that you ran on Saturday.......You have to get lucky and have someone taking video of the gate action to even have a chance at a protest.....

Sadly, the rules change depending on who you are................And yall ALL know what Im talking about here.........
Bryan

[jake55]

there is a system in place for suspected rules violations, if it is not properly used by the competiors it is not effective. i'm done on this topic.