EFI Discussion

[troybilt]

In the breathe of fresh air thread there was some good discussions on EFI that got barried. Anyway, I got a response from the guys at Ecotrons, I thought I would share:

Hi, Troy,

Sorry for a late reply, I was on travelling recently.

Yes, our 2 stroke EFI kit works for large ones, like 500cc. We have
many customers done conversino on Honda CR500, KX500; etc.

We recommend to use 45mm TB or 50mm TB , and 2 injectors to run this
motor. at high speed.

The lambda sensor can be wideband kit , ALM, for tuning purpose. Not
a problem. After tuning, you can remove it.

The tuning software is full of features and you can do what ever you want.

thx, Matt

[troybilt]

IF I get my motor sorted out, I think I'm going to give it a try.

[jcs003]

this sounds like a viable alternative to the mikini, kehin, lectron and smart carbs. i have yet to find a carb that is reliable. my lectron is easy to tune but it constantly gets air-locks and will begin to spill fuel from the overflows. the owner of lectron wont accept there is an issue.

john

[etccb]

What is the ball park cost of a system like this?

[troybilt]

the way I read is 400 bucks, or 700 depending on the system you buy... cheaper than a smart carb... LOL!

http://www.ecotrons.com/2_Stroke_Small_Engine_EFI_kit.html

[troybilt]

This is the kit I was looking at, but by the sounds of it the 2 stroke kit with the larger throttle body is the one we want. I'd ask them before buying anything though.

http://www.ecotrons.com/400cc_to_800cc_Engine_EFI_kit.html

[Uns]

This is the kit I was looking at, but by the sounds of it the 2 stroke kit with the larger throttle body is the one we want. I'd ask them before buying anything though.

http://www.ecotrons.com/400cc_to_800cc_Engine_EFI_kit.html

I can't wait until aftermarket figures out 2 stroke EFI.

Also , I didn't want to say anything, but 2 stroke snowmobiles have been using EFI to get 160HP out of a 800CC 10K mile+ motor for a while now, running at(i believe) a equivalent ratio of 60:1! Thats equivalent to getting 60HP out of a 300CC engine, while getting far better fuel and oil efficiency and no more jets! This doesn't sound "useless" or "pointless" to me.

Oh, and I'll take two!

[troybilt]

Are the snowmobile EFI systems you speal of DI or throttle body injection? I'd love to figure out how to do a DI system!! That would be killer.

[Uns]

Are the snowmobile EFI systems you speal of DI or throttle body injection? I'd love to figure out how to do a DI system!! That would be killer.

All of that stuff is DI. I know you are looking into throttle body, but DI goodness is obviously not impossible. They figured it out and made amazing engines that the EPA are allowing in snowmobiles. Doesn't seem like to big of a leap to have it in performance ATVs.

Here's a good article: http://www.sae.org/mags/AEI/POWER/8157

[derby]

Troy, I have never run efi. But I did see John Stallworth with a pro-x 350 setup on efi at little sahara. It has been a few years ago. He used to run a banshee at pikes peak with efi. Might be worth picking his brain a little.

http://bigboremotors.com/index.html

[troybilt]

Troy, I have never run efi. But I did see John Stallworth with a pro-x 350 setup on efi at little sahara. It has been a few years ago. He used to run a banshee at pikes peak with efi. Might be worth picking his brain a little.

http://bigboremotors.com/index.html

I'm familiar with John's banshees, Kevin Gigot had one I believe as well, might have that wrong though... I think would be a good idea to call and talk to John.

[Mony25]

Troy I spoke to both of these guys maybe 2 years ago when the pikes peak banshee was featured in dirt wheels. That kind of got me interested in efi. Both said it was very do able but you needed to be very knowledgable on efi setup and tuning which I am not. I have been reading on it and still hope to do this some day. The other problem was I believe they are located in Kansas and i am in Indiana so it's not very close for them to help me out as they kind of wanted to have it there to do dyno work on it. Don't quote me on this but I think gigot gave me a rough quote of 3 grand. He said right now the ECM was the reason for the high price as they haven't came down to reasonable levels yet. I do hope to see you go this route cause if any one has the reasources to do this kind of stuff it seems to be you.

[wilkin250r]

Troy, what were the questions that you asked Ecotrons? Their responses would make more sense if we knew the original questions.

[wilkin250r]

And I agree with the previous posts, I would LOVE to see a Direct Injection design. My only worry is that you would begin to add so much weight and complexity that you begin to lose those advantages that 2-strokes have over 4-strokes.

And getting massive horsepower out of a 2-stroke snowmobile is much easier than an ATV because of the CVT transmission. By definition, Constant Velocity, it is designed to keep the engine at or near a specific engine speed, so you can design the pipe around a very narrow RPM. If I have to broaden the pipe range, I lose power by spreading it out.

[89trx250r]

All this I am about to post is taken from Vitalmx members from AUS. I thought it was pretty interesting I wish I got to read the whole articles but the guy didn't scan them like you guys do for us.



Quote from Rob Twyerould, technical guy for KTM Australia, taken from the July issue of Australasian Dirt Bike:

"There is definitely a well-developed prototype at KTM, but they are waiting for the next round of emission restrictions to be announced before pushing forward.

"KTM has developed and patented it's own mechanical fuel pump system and a very compact oil delivery system to the bottom-end bearings, and the whole bike works really well.

"While there are some reasonable performance improvements, the real advantages of the system are in emissions and fuel economy. So the motivation for bringing to market will only come with the new emission targets."



6/23/2013 12:20 AM

This is from the latest Australasian Dirt Bike...

--------
ARE INJECTED TWO-STROKES A MYTH?
JOACHIM SAUER, KIM PRODUCT MANAGER

"We have been working a lot in recent years in order to get the injection system ready for our two-strokes. I went out into the market last year and visited lots of dealers and spoke to hundreds of riders and I asked them if they would like a two-stroke injected bike. Everyone said, 'Great! When will it be ready?'

"I then said, 'Would you still love it if the price was close to the 450/500 EXC?' Also, instead of just a carburettor and ignition, you would have to deal with pumps and all the complexities of such a system, which also adds 2kg of weight. It would make the whole thing so difficult to deal with you would not be able to change the piston at home anymore.

"From the beginning, I could see their enthusiasm get less and less, and at the end, out of 100 people I asked, there was not even five people who would like such a system. So we decided we won't introduce it until the rules (homologation) force us to introduce it. This will probably happen with model year 2017. But if we had to do it next year, we would be ready. But we want to keep it back and do some more testing.

"I've been doing lots of tests [on the injected two-stroke] and the major benefit is that it has a very clean engine and a safe carburettor setting. If I'm on the rich side at sea level and I go up into the mountains, it will be too rich up, so this will be history [with injection]. I did not have smoke or that hesitation in front of an uphill when I did some trailriding, and I need quick response. Sometimes it feels as though the bike is not ready to get up, so the fuel injection has a major benefit in terms of engine behaviour and running. You can make different maps that make the bike completely different".

And for those two-stroke fanatics, Joachim admitted the two-stroke would not lose that powerband hit.

[wilkin250r]

The article doesn't specifically say it, but it sounds like they're talking about Direct Injection, especially if they're talking about meeting emission standards.

[250R-Dee]

If you look at the CRM250AR (http://www.atvriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?249920-Low-emission-2-stroke-CRM250AR&highlight=CRM250AR) it really shouldn't be that difficult add fuel injection to a Honda 2 stroke.

[jcs003]

seems like that engine needs a 250r chassis

john

[troybilt]

Dee did you ever get one of those bikes? CRM250AR

[250R-Dee]

Troy I bought one and sold it a few months later because a Japanese guy decided he just had to have it. I will get another soon as a commuter.