Video of 400 Running. Need Jetting Advice! Continued from last thread..

[cheater13]

I recorded a video in continuation of my old thread with the Velocity Intake and how it needed rejetted.

If you haven't read that thread, here's the low down..

Fourwheeler has a high idle (always has), starts up quick, runs great at idle-3/4 throttle. Runs like crap at WOT because it sputters and don't have any power. Jets are Keihin. Main jet is 170 and Pilot is 58 according to the mechanic I took it to at Superjuice.

I never dealt with anything dealing with carbs besides of the 3 hours of research i did on here and on jetsrus this afternoon.

I'm headed back over this afternoon to attempt to get the carb off and to check the current jets just to make sure they are what he said.

Here's the video. Click to watch it. If the link doesn't work, let me know:

http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp47/cheater13_photos/th_MVI_0247.jpg (http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp47/cheater13_photos/MVI_0247.mp4)



All help is appreciated!

[Mtndew99]

ive never messed with a 450 carb but i think your main will have to be pretty big

[AtvKid4Eva]

try a 185 main and a 50 pilot. That 58 is WAY to big. my brothers is jetted like above and we haven't touched the A/F screw. runs PERFECT. Start there and report back.

[cheater13]

Yeah, that's what i thought too Mtndew99.

AtvKid4Eva: Yeah, i was thinking around 180-185 to try first. John also said that the 58 pilot was too big.

So what all jets should i buy? John told me to get in increments of 5 so then maybe 180-195?

And for the slow jet, what do you all think? I want to get these ordered this week. I also stripped out a screw on the carb black cover but got it out so i'll have to order another one of them off bikebandit for like 8 bucks shipped. :rolleyes:

Is #19 the part i need?
http://www.bikebandit.com/houseofmotorcycles/2004-honda-trx450r/o/m2688#sch305762


I'm going to post another comment of some pictures i took of the carb tore apart and all in a few minutes so this reply isn't overcrowded.

[cheater13]

*Sorry for all the questions* I'm learning alot with you guys' answers though! :)

I confirmed that the main jet is a 170 Keihin and the pilot is a 58 Keihin.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp47/cheater13_photos/IMG_0255.jpg

Here is a shot of the bowl off:
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp47/cheater13_photos/IMG_0253.jpg

I need to replace this. In my reply above this one, is #19 from bikebandit what I'm looking for?
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp47/cheater13_photos/IMG_0254.jpg

And could i remove this? It's serving me no use anyway.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp47/cheater13_photos/IMG_0257.jpg

And finally, just to make sure.. 400ex jets fit 450r carbs right?

[AtvKid4Eva]

you want number 19 in that pic you sent me. just worry about the main and pilot. Just make sure you get a keihin hex main and a keihin pilot and youll be fine. either from a 400ex or 450r will be the same. and you can take the choke lever off. If jetted right it will start with a couple pumps of the throttle.

[cheater13]

Originally posted by AtvKid4Eva
you want number 19 in that pic you sent me. just worry about the main and pilot. Just make sure you get a keihin hex main and a keihin pilot and youll be fine. either from a 400ex or 450r will be the same. and you can take the choke lever off. If jetted right it will start with a couple pumps of the throttle.
Alright cool, I'll get that bolt ordered today. But I'll be getting the oem equivalent keihin jets because they are less expensive.

But what sizes should i order? I was thinking Main; 175,180,185, and maybe 190. And for the Pilot; 48,50,52, and maybe 55?

What do you all think?

[AtvKid4Eva]

that should be a good range of jets. Start there and see how it runs

[JOHNDOE83]

That sputter is hard to tell from the video.

It could be a lean sputter, it could be a rich one.

with 170 I think its to lean for sure, considering your mods and new intake.

Your looking at 180 or larger.

58 WAY TO BIG, 50 pilot for a 450r carb, 42 for stock carb.

QUAD LOOKS GOOD MAN!!!!!!!

FYI ive run without the dust cover on both my carbs for a long time, keep it clean and you dont really need it.

[cheater13]

Originally posted by JOHNDOE83
That sputter is hard to tell from the video.

It could be a lean sputter, it could be a rich one.

with 170 I think its to lean for sure, considering your mods and new intake.

Your looking at 180 or larger.

58 WAY TO BIG, 50 pilot for a 450r carb, 42 for stock carb.

QUAD LOOKS GOOD MAN!!!!!!!

FYI ive run without the dust cover on both my carbs for a long time, keep it clean and you dont really need it.
Alright so then would ordering a 48,50, and 52 pilot be good to order? And for the main would 180,185, and 190 be good? Or should I get 180, 182, and 185?

And thanks man, I try to keep it clean as possible besides when I take it though mud. :D

[JOHNDOE83]

I would buy 180-210 in incriments of 5, if you dont want that many atleast buy up to 200.

if your stock carb buy a 42, if your 450r carb buy a 50 pilot.

no need for extra pilots.

you might need extra mains in the future.

Try to find a 160 jet or 155 jet just to be sure its not rich before you buy jets, my theory is your to lean but ya never know till you start using larger or smaller jets.

I have a 165 jet thats drilled out to a 220main, so even tho it says keihin 170 it might actually be drilled? no way to tell without a second 170 jet tho.

my vote says you need 170+

[cheater13]

Thanks John! I'll go ahead and get 180, 185, 190, 195, and 200 for now. I doubt I'll need higher cause it isn't running super horrible, just that sputter at wot unless you think I do.

Then I'll buy that 50 pilot and I'm goin to get them stainless steel bolts off jetsrus so i don't strip anything out.

I'll order that all tomorrow. But what do you think of the needle in my one picture John? It's alittle off and not in the middle.

[JOHNDOE83]

The needle being slightly off wont hurt anything unless your needle our clip is noticeably bent.

I think my cr80, cr250, xr80 and 400ex all do the same thing.

the needle does have slight play in it, if you wiggle the carb around with the bowl off you might see it jiggle slightly.

no worrys, as long as it still works.

[cheater13]

Originally posted by JOHNDOE83
The needle being slightly off wont hurt anything unless your needle our clip is noticeably bent.

I think my cr80, cr250, xr80 and 400ex all do the same thing.

the needle does have slight play in it, if you wiggle the carb around with the bowl off you might see it jiggle slightly.

no worrys, as long as it still works.
Alright sounds good. I plan on ordering 180-200 in increments of 5 like you said and them bolts. Total comes out to around 33 bucks shipped so that isn't too bad.

I should have them maybe by Friday-Saturday, if not Monday. Then I might get into it the following weekend.

I'll put the 50 pilot in and try the 185 to start off on and go from there. I don't know anything about adjusting the air/fuel screw or needle so I'll keep them in the same position as they are right now.

[2001-400ex'er]

Just remember don't make too many changes at once or else you will never be able to tell if your heading in the right direction or not.

[Thumpin440ex]

50 pilot, 180 main, needle on second clip from the top stock A/F screw setting. Should start right up..

John

[JOHNDOE83]

Originally posted by cheater13


I'll put the 50 pilot in and try the 185 to start off on and go from there. I don't know anything about adjusting the air/fuel screw or needle so I'll keep them in the same position as they are right now.

generally you want to start with the largest jet first, atleast thats what i do and jetsrus reccommends for the main jet anyway.

start big and if it sputters on the topend like a rev limiter, then go down in incriments of 5 until it fully revs out. if it doesnt sputter leave the 200 an ride out happily ever after.

summer or winter months might need a 5 incriment up or down, mine is so finiky i could be 210 one day and the next 220.

but dont worry about that stuff till later on.

PLEASE READ STEP 4 OF "THE PROCESS IN DETAIL" SECTION ON THIS PAGE! its about half way down.

http://www.jetsrus.com/FAQs/FAQ_rejetting_101_how_to_rejet.htm

[cheater13]

2001-400ex'er - Alright, thanks for the info.

Thumpin440ex - I'm not sure what stock position is on the screw. The shop that attempted to rejet it was messing around with that. And how do you adjust the needle?

JOHN: Don't worry, i printed that whole page off. :D

I'm just going to buy the 205+210 jets too for the heck of it since their only 2.99 bucks more. I'll just start there then. But, right when i get the jets, would i put the 50 pilot in and then the 210 or just the 210 and keep the 58 pilot in there to start?

And when i fine tune the main jets, down the road I'll order the one that's in between them and see how it does if I think it's necessary at the time.

BTW: Total came out to $39.21 shipped for 180-210 jets (increments of 5) and the carb bowl screws. Not bad. :)

[RNL]

Give us updates through the process.

[cheater13]

Originally posted by RNL
Give us updates through the process.
Will do. Jets are estimated to come Saturday so if I'm free Sunday, I'll be startin on it.

But anyone got an answer to my last question? Should I go ahead and put the 50 pilot in and start that way or start by keeping my old 58 pilot in there and start?

[Blodg]

Yes put the 50 pilot in.

[cheater13]

Originally posted by Blodg
Yes put the 50 pilot in.
Thanks, I'll update everyone Sunday when I work on it.

[cheater13]

This is bullsh**..

Bad news... I twisted my 195 main off into the thing you screw it into. Wasn't even barely putting pressure on the jet when tightening it. I just always snug them in there. Now what? Where can I get another one of those things and what are they called?

We tried the 210 main, way to big. Gas was dumpin out the overthrow so we figured we go to a 195. So now I'm hoping that isn't the jet I need. Hopefully I only need 180 or 185.

http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp47/cheater13_photos/1F9C009E-C32D-4542-860C-2045240F912A-1258-000000F39C591EBC.jpg

http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp47/cheater13_photos/D721A019-2ED6-401C-8986-886DFF45F4D5-1258-000000F394344BC1.jpg

[mrcribbs]

Main jet size has nothing to do with fuel coming out of the overflow. Your float height needs set.

Servicehonda.com for the carb part

[cheater13]

But it never did that before? Could I have bumped something?

I found a broken down diagram of the carb. What's the part # I'll need? I can't seem to find it.

http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp47/cheater13_photos/D0E09202-E1B7-45FE-B2EE-1E37446E6019-2087-00000128C8DC49B8.jpg

[mrcribbs]

#29

The float height can easily be bumped out of adjustment by novice carb tuners. (No offense.)

[cheater13]

Originally posted by mrcribbs
#29

The float height can easily be bumped out of adjustment by novice carb tuners. (No offense.)
That's what I thought, thanks. And yeah I figured we did cause it didn't look right. How would I adjust it back?

[mrcribbs]

http://www.allthingsmoto.com/forums/f-15/how-set-your-motorcycle-carburetor-float-level-more-commentary-13608/

[cheater13]

Ok well long story short, I got a drag racin buddy to get that broke off jet out!

So my jetting setup is 190 Main, 50 Pilot.

It don't sputter at wot, starts up and idles good, no backfire on deacceleration or anything.

But I still think it should be fine tuned with that air/fuel screw. Maybe not, it might just be me not being able to ride it for a month. But as the rpms get higher, the power seems to increase like a powerband or something instead of being a constant/steady power increase. But yet again, maybe it's just me.

Thank god I can ride it now, thanks to all you good people and this forum helping me out. :D

So what do you guys think?

[AtvKid4Eva]

good to hear!:macho

[JOHNDOE83]

the af screw wont do anything if you start up just fine and theres no backfiring, then it doesnt need adjusted.

fuel overflow and main jet dont have anything to do with each other.

you are correct about the "powerband" the reason why idiots say 440s rev slow is because they arent jetted properly. when the top end is lean the bike will rev really slow and not fully rev out like it should.

190/50 is right were I figured it would be, if you havent already try the 200 main again?

it sux that 195 broke? like WTf for real?

you might have needed that 195, I hate when stuff like that happens.

[JOHNDOE83]

I would call the guy that jetted it and be like WTF dude you were wrong the whole time :rolleyes:

topend to rich and bottom to lean.....PSHHHH!

we solved that one on our own and it was the exact opposite:D

[cheater13]

Alright cool, cause i wasn't sure on how to adjust it anyway.

And yeah, i thought i felt something, i just wasn't sure. But yep, it would figure we would break the one i would probably need. Happens everytime. :rolleyes:

I never tried the 200 main though, should I down the road? Or should i sometime just go ahead and get the 195 again and get maybe the 192 and 198 to go with it? Or would 195 be good enough?

I mean, my fourwheeler is ridable right how it sits BUT i notice little stuff like that "powerband" thing and it bothers me. And if you think that 195 will fix it, I'm gettin it.

Yeah, i shoud call the guy, i knew taking my fourwheeler someplace wouldn't do a thing but take my freakin money. Good thing i signed up on this forum back in 08 or i would probably still have my Mojave 250. :D

[JOHNDOE83]

well try the 200, if it doesnt sputter leave it in there.

read faqs again on jetsrus, if you keep going up on size and quality gets better, then keep going up till no change is noticed.

Then you can back down to the incriments of 2 instead of 5 ...etc.

but you dont need to do all that, simplify it by going up in 5s till it sputters then go back down 5 and forget about it, 1-2-3 incriments isnt going to do ANYTHING after that.

I seriously think if you do 200 and dont sputter, it probally will start right at 205-210 so 200 is good enough to leave and forget about.

My 450r carb is VERY finicky, I could be at 220 in the morning and 210 in the afternoon or vise versa.

Thats the only reason why you might need the 195, but if it gets to rich on 200 depending on weather conditions, a 190 will be just as good.

Dont stress it to much...lol. :rolleyes:

Just keep in mind youve run for a long time with a 170 or less and had no real issues, your 190 now is far better then the bike ever has been.

Put 200 go for a good ride, if theres no sputter then ride happily and dont worry anymore:D

When you go to race keep your 190 "just in case", if you feel it might be hesitating slightly still then in the future "few weeks/months" you might try to get from 200-220 just to see?

you wont know till you try the 200:devil:

[cheater13]

Thanks for the long, descriptive reply John! :D

But I will see if I have time/a good day this week to go put the 200 main in and test it. I'll run it wot and get the fourwheeler warm and make sure it runs the same with no sputter or "powerband" effect.

If it does anything like that, I guess I'll be getting the 195 and that'll be perfect I'm assuming.

I just don't wanna snap another jet off in that jet holder or whatever it is.. I'll haveta be extra careful.

But won't the seasons effect my jets and how it runs?

And one more question... When you said I might try to get from 200 to 210-220 what do you mean by that?

And I'm not stressing.. Trying not to. ;)

[JOHNDOE83]

I was saying with the 200 if it doesnt sputter, you can leave it and forget it and ride happy.

And in the future, if you ever wanted to see how high you could actually go before it sputters out, you could get from 200-220 jet sizes just to play around with.

It was more of a "what if, in the future" then it was actual advice I guess. :chinese:

Like I said, you have to try the 200 first to find out.

[cheater13]

Ah I get what your sayin now!

Tomorrow seems to be a nice day so I'll go ahead and test the 200 out and report back with results.

[cheater13]

*UPDATE*

Great news!

We put the 200 main in and it runs like a champ!

Bad freakin news!

Look on my video I posted... In the beginning I take the camera down to the engine for a reason. There is oil leaking out of the corner. I found out the reason though.

One of my head bolts broke off.. Well not completely but it won't tighten and just keeps spinning in place. Is it fine for now? And oil is leaking out of the corner of the section below the head from the same corner.

Gasket problems? I'll take pictures closer up later cause it ain't important to me at the moment.

[Blodg]

Glad you got the jetting figured out. This makes me wonder what main I should start with on my 416 build that I am finishing up. I already guessed and put a 185 in the carb figuring that was a little rich and that I would end up coming down into the 170's. Now I wonder if I should start with a 200? That could be way too rich for mine but it would be on the safe side.

[Stickman400]

If your leaking oil where I think your talking about then it's because of that bolt. I had one of those long 6mm bolts that goes down through the valve cover and into the cylinder pull the threads out and it wouldn't tighten so over time it started pushing oil through the gap. That's when I ended up boring mine out to a 407 awhile back. Here's my old thread that has a few pics of what was happening when I ended up rebuilding it: http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=474081&perpage=10&pagenumber=1

[cheater13]

Blodg: Does it sputter at wot or pop on deacceleration?

Stickman: Yeah I know the one place is because that dumb bolt. I just noticed the bolt out too even though the leaking been going on awhile. It's an extremely slow leak though. The front/right (When your sitting on the fourwheeler) side of the head gasket plus the cylinder head gasket is leaking. The cylinder head gasket looks alittle worse.

Mine was rebuilt not last august but the august before last so I'm pretty sure it's still good. It don't smoke a tad either or run bad. Just really hot like always.

I'll post some close up shots after I get home today of the places it's leaking out of and the bolt with my good camera and put them on.

I hope to god that I only need to replace the gaskets and maybe the head bolt. I would like to get the gtthunder ones though if their any better.

[Blodg]

cheater, I have not ran the 416 yet, still putting it together. Should be riding by this weekend so I am trying to figure out where to start with the main jet. Before I read your thread I would have started with a 185 but now I am not sure.

[JOHNDOE83]

Originally posted by Blodg
cheater, I have not ran the 416 yet, still putting it together. Should be riding by this weekend so I am trying to figure out where to start with the main jet. Before I read your thread I would have started with a 185 but now I am not sure.

Well like mineralgrey01gt, he has a 416 running a 210 main jet, some builds will be like that some will be 185. He tried my/jetsrus method and it apparently really woke his bike up, a short time later he traded it for a banshee.:ermm:

Like jetsrus reccomends start with the largest size main jet and work your way down.

Most people think going up in small incriments is whats needed and they couldnt be more wrong, unfortunaty theres alot of misleading info out there and there is jetting info that is correct but 90% of the time they completely leave out tuning main jet.

They cant have you out there competing against them at the track right ;)

Until you actually read the jetsrus faq and try it for yourself youll never know the true potential of your motor.

I wonder if you did this jetting to a stock ex how much would it improve?

One other thing to think about, exhaust/slipon manufacturers recommend a 155 main jet just for installing their slipon, thats a 7 size increase just by adding a pipe and the 155 is a baseline recommendation.

Now imagine boring, caming, carbing, timing and whatever else we do to these things.

Anyway Cheater13, so you can notice a big difference now?

[cheater13]

John: I notice alot compared to my 190 jet. It finished waking it up to the extent that i wanted it to. It's freakin fast for a stock bore 400! :D It has amazing throttle response and is very torquey, but i have my 13,39 sprockets in still.


But here's the engine and where it is leaking oil. I should start another thread for this but I don't wanna clog it all up with my topics. But how much should i be concerned? The bolt that won't tighten and just sits in there and spins is pictured as the middle bolt in the first 2 pictures:

http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp47/cheater13_photos/IMG_0280.jpg (http://s396.photobucket.com/user/cheater13_photos/media/IMG_0280.jpg.html)

http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp47/cheater13_photos/IMG_0283.jpg (http://s396.photobucket.com/user/cheater13_photos/media/IMG_0283.jpg.html)

http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp47/cheater13_photos/IMG_0282.jpg (http://s396.photobucket.com/user/cheater13_photos/media/IMG_0282.jpg.html)

http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp47/cheater13_photos/IMG_0279.jpg (http://s396.photobucket.com/user/cheater13_photos/media/IMG_0279.jpg.html)

[Stickman400]

Yep, that's the exact same bolt that was stripped in mine. I wouldn't be too worried about it unless it starts burning a lot of oil. I rode mine like that for about a year until I finally decided to tear it apart and see what was wrong with it. It was only burning about 1/4 of a quart every week of hard riding.

And also to comment on your jetting, I have a 210 genuine Keihin main jet in my 407 with just a stage 2 cam and no other major motor work done beside a filter, full pipe and the 450R carb. It runs a stabbed rat when you have that main in there, during last summer I swapped in a 175 and a 180 and rode it and it was like going back to a stock 400, it was a night and day difference. And with both jets it had no pops, backfires, or problems at WOT and ran fine, one just ripped compared to the other.

[JOHNDOE83]

Mine actually leaks in the same spot also, I have a helicoiled valve cover bolt there and apparently, it doesnt work all that great. Following factory torque values is what messed mine up.

Never had a issue with it, it seems like hot days leak slightly more but my oil stays good and doesnt ever run low.

Another note: 400ex comes with a 148 main jet stock, which is very lean "from stock". The reason they do that is so the atv can be sold in Florida at sea level or sold in a mountain town where its snowing and still start and run.

Id be willing to bet a 100% stock ex in Florida could use a 170 main jet "maybe" and be faster then "some" piped or even camd 400exs.

[cheater13]

Originally posted by Stickman400
Yep, that's the exact same bolt that was stripped in mine. I wouldn't be too worried about it unless it starts burning a lot of oil. I rode mine like that for about a year until I finally decided to tear it apart and see what was wrong with it. It was only burning about 1/4 of a quart every week of hard riding.

And also to comment on your jetting, I have a 210 genuine Keihin main jet in my 407 with just a stage 2 cam and no other major motor work done beside a filter, full pipe and the 450R carb. It runs a stabbed rat when you have that main in there, during last summer I swapped in a 175 and a 180 and rode it and it was like going back to a stock 400, it was a night and day difference. And with both jets it had no pops, backfires, or problems at WOT and ran fine, one just ripped compared to the other.
That's all I needed to hear! :D But it don't smoke at all, it just leaks out of that corner. How hard was it to get that bolt out of the head when you did? And what about my other leak around the cylinder gasket? That's the one that leaks the worse. I priced both gaskets, but labor is the main thing that shops charge you but I don't have the kind of money to fix that right yet. Maybe next summer.

And what are you trying to say about the jetting you have? That when you had your 210 in, compared to your 180 it ran a lot better? I'm not sure what your tellin me.

So then I guess I might be able to go higher like 205 then?


JOHN: Yep, that's about the same way mine is acting. I don't even notice a difference in the oil level even though it's seeping out of the gasket area. So I guess it isn't too much of a worry then?

But I still don't know what that other leak in the cylinder gasket would be from beside the gasket itself..

[Stickman400]

Both are being caused by that loose bolt, and I had my local shop take care of getting that bolt out and installing a time-sert as well as boring and honing the cylinder when I had it there. And I mentioned the jet sizes because if you can put a 200 or higher in there and it still runs without stuttering at WOT then just leave it, it'll run better the more fuel you give it and it isn't going to hurt the motor any.

[cheater13]

Sorry for the late reply but I wouldn't have to get that done cause it was only a year and a half since it been rebuilt. I would just have to replace the gaskets and head bolts I was thinking. Would it be good just doing that?

And just wandering, what's a time sert?

But yeah, it runs great with the 200 main in there so it isn't gettin changed anytime soon.

[JOHNDOE83]

It will be cool to see how much your drag times improve when you guys start racing again:D

[Blodg]

Originally posted by cheater13


And just wandering, what's a time sert?



A timesert is a threaded insert that is screwed into a threaded hole to repair threads that are stripped out. If you know what a helicoil is it is similar except the helicoil is a wound coil where a timesert is a bushing and is a better but more expensive repair.

[cheater13]

Oh alright I know what you're talkin about. But there wouldn't be anyway to drill the stud out and replace them with hd studs from gtthunder would there?