Blown piston pic

[RED121572]

This is what happens when a circlip falls out of place. It caused so much damage, the sleeve is destroyed. (406cc's) I chose to purchase a 440 kit.

[RED121572]

Other side

[lex luger]

gotta picture of the sleeve? what happened to the clip? did it fall in the base or get burnt up or go out?

[RED121572]

...

[RED121572]

The clip was chewed up in about 10 pieces...from what I found anyway. They were lyin inside of the pin.

Kinda sucks. That piston has been in there for about 15 months....why would the pin just decide to fall out? Hmmm...

[RED121572]

Originally posted by lex luger
gotta picture of the sleeve? what happened to the clip? did it fall in the base or get burnt up or go out?

Give me about 15 min's and Ill post a pic or two of the cylinder.

[ZRacer]

I had the exact thing happen to me with a Wiseco piston after only a couple hours of riding.

[RED121572]

Bore pics. I thought I could it would be good for at least a 425 bore. Dealer took one look at it and quickly said..."Wow...that needs a new sleeve."

[RED121572]

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[RED121572]

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[RED121572]

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yea same thing happened me to me..i tpore it down today...this pic is how it was when i pulled the cuylinder off....he rod was half way in

my cylinder

missing peice of my piston

i found them in the corner of my bottom end

[shamisc]

What kind of pistons are these?

[H0nDo]

same thing happened to my friends warrior.....he had pieces of metal in his pipe

[RED121572]

Wiseco.

[RED121572]

Ird,

Seen your sleeve. Is it salvageable for boring? Or does it need replaced?

If it needs replaced, you might wanna get a 440 kit. I got one yesterday off Ebay for 185 bucks. The kit includes, piston, sleeve and gaskets. For what you get, you cant beat the price.

[DEAL]

How did u guys manage to do this kind of Damage or is it just a faulty piston?

[RED121572]

We did the damage. I must have installed the circlip in a manner inwhich it was able to work lose over time. My quad was actually running just fine, except for the smoke. I didnt notice any noises or vibrations.

[gojk]

How much is a stock sleeve. I haven't been able to find one anywhere.

[RED121572]

About a 150 bucks.

[Jay300ex]

Well guys I've seen this up at school a few times, and usually the reasons that the circlips fall out, is because they are either 1- improperly installed into their seating grooves or 2- they were not new clips. And when you talk about boring a cylinder up, dont say from a 406 to a 425 or 440, thats displacement not bore, you say .040'', .060'', ect. The maximum bore size is .080'' and is exactly 2 millimeters. If you want more displacement after that I believe you have to have it stroked.

What I would do to see if your sleeve was salvagable, would be to stick it on a boring bar, bore it until there is no more grooves, then measure it. If you can get an oversize piston that you can bore that thing to match, go for it, but if you bore so high as .080'' of an inch, man there isnt room for much heat transfer there heh.

Jay

[gojk]

Originally posted by Jay300ex
Well guys I've seen this up at school a few times, and usually the reasons that the circlips fall out, is because they are either 1- improperly installed into their seating grooves or 2- they were not new clips. And when you talk about boring a cylinder up, dont say from a 406 to a 425 or 440, thats displacement not bore, you say .040'', .060'', ect. The maximum bore size is .080'' and is exactly 2 millimeters. If you want more displacement after that I believe you have to have it stroked.

What I would do to see if your sleeve was salvagable, would be to stick it on a boring bar, bore it until there is no more grooves, then measure it. If you can get an oversize piston that you can bore that thing to match, go for it, but if you bore so high as .080'' of an inch, man there isnt room for much heat transfer there heh.

Jay

Actually I think the 426 is .120 over. 416 is .080 over.

[speedy400]

man sorry to hear about your guy's missfortune, I sure wont be getting a wisco for a 400ex untill the reliability is proved better than the rest...& hope you guys get your 400's back together soon, I hate having sick quads:(

Originally posted by RED121572
Ird,

Seen your sleeve. Is it salvageable for boring? Or does it need replaced?

If it needs replaced, you might wanna get a 440 kit. I got one yesterday off Ebay for 185 bucks. The kit includes, piston, sleeve and gaskets. For what you get, you cant beat the price.
well im going to my engine builder today....this problem was not my fault at all...when i ahd my engine built for christmas....i didnt know much about engines at all..so i had them do everything...i tok them my whole engine..i learned my lesson...im going there later today and shove the piston in their ***...im taken my friend who is royalty over there cuz he saved one of the dudes life whiler they were out riding...they beleive what he sais so i will get a deal...but i have been looking on ebay for one of those 440 kits...im gona wait till i see how bad this realy is...maybe a 505 kit might come of it...:devil

but hey some good came from this..while i had my case covers off looking for the peices of my pison and my other cir clip...i did this

Originally posted by speedy400
man sorry to hear about your guy's missfortune, I sure wont be getting a wisco for a 400ex untill the reliability is proved better than the rest...& hope you guys get your 400's back together soon, I hate having sick quads:(

hey man...it has nothing to do with wiseco...wiseco is a great lightweight and strong piston..if installed correctly..ours weret..and bad things happen when not installed correctly

wiseco is a great lightweight and strong piston

I hear you on that, but it seems they are the ones we hear most problems with from the stupid low compression on the 440 kits (ok the J&E wasnt much better but still about a full point higher) to stuff like this.

Could be just bad luck for weisco but I am staying away for a while.

[lex luger]

hey RED121572, you can probably bore it out to the max, then maybe hone it, that should fix it wouldn't it? the dealer probably just said that to try and sell ya something from the *stealership*

*stealership* lmfao thats a good one :)

But that sleeve seriously looks like its beyond boring. :( I wouldnt be afraid to look into how much your local machine shop would charge to install a new sleeve (l.a. or advanced sleeve has prices you will like) and then just pick out a piston of your choice etc.

[Jay300ex]

Actually I think the 426 is .120 over. 416 is .080 over.

I can't remember exactly how the formula goes for it, I though .080'' was the max for these cylinders and then you have to press a new sleeve in. I think the formula for displacement is something like (bore)(stroke) / 3.14 squared . . I'll double check when I get my notebook from my locker.


Jay

[gojk]

(bore/2) ^ 2 * 3.14 * (stroke) = Displacement

Originally posted by Jay300ex
I can't remember exactly how the formula goes for it, I though .080'' was the max for these cylinders and then you have to press a new sleeve in. I think the formula for displacement is something like (bore)(stroke) / 3.14 squared . . I'll double check when I get my notebook from my locker.


Jay

the 400ex sleeve cant be pressed out..they have to bored out till it hits the cylinder..then press the new sleeve in

[F-16Guy]

If you heat up the cylinder in an oven, that sleeve will fall right out. Jay, you must be thinking of some other quad. I have heard of some kind of cast-in-place sleeve, but the 400 doesn't have one. As for the piston problem; mine did the same thing!! I posted something about the circlip problem I had a while back, but pretty much no one responded. This sounds like a quality or design problem. It needs to be addressed, it cost me quite a bit of money, as I'm sure it did you guys. Wiseco sent me a new piston kit, gaskets, and a sleeve, but it took more than a little effort on my part!! It just seems like too common a problem for it to be "installer error". I'm going to give Wiseco a call and see if they're aware of this.

[RED121572]

Too late, the 440 Kit is here.

i chose to get it bored to a 416, my sleeve was still able to be bored out past the gouges thank god..i woulda loved to get a 440, i ahd the option but i didnt feel like paying 200 for them to re-sleeve...then another 200 for the kit

[RED121572]

Originally posted by Jay300ex
Well guys I've seen this up at school a few times, and usually the reasons that the circlips fall out, is because they are either 1- improperly installed into their seating grooves or 2- they were not new clips. And when you talk about boring a cylinder up, dont say from a 406 to a 425 or 440, thats displacement not bore, you say .040'', .060'', ect. The maximum bore size is .080'' and is exactly 2 millimeters. If you want more displacement after that I believe you have to have it stroked.

What I would do to see if your sleeve was salvagable, would be to stick it on a boring bar, bore it until there is no more grooves, then measure it. If you can get an oversize piston that you can bore that thing to match, go for it, but if you bore so high as .080'' of an inch, man there isnt room for much heat transfer there heh.

Jay

In response to that reply, i would just like to say, :rolleyes:


400cc's 85mm
406cc's 86mm .040
416cc's 87mm .080
425cc's 88mm .120
440cc's 89mm .160 <------ *this is the pt where you must install new sleeve"

I said before, my stock sleeve was not salvageable. Now, you may go back to class.

[skemp]

Yes, things can get ugly when circlips decide to come out and play..

The same thing happened on my sled, but the circlip broke rather than fall out. I don't have any pictures right now, but I will most likely have to resleeve. A bore would take care of it, but the problem is around the transfer ports, it hit the edge of the port and chunked it up pretty good. Luckily, the little ******* got shot out the exhaust before it could do much more damage. Head is still ok, which is nice, because it's a one piece head.

For future reference, be very careful when putting in circlips, make sure that they are seated properly in their grooves I have heard of a few guys putting JB Weld on the clips to make sure they can't move, but come time to tear it down, that could be a pain, and I think it would cause some binding problems and lead the breakage.

[Jay300ex]

Originally posted by RED121572

I said before, my stock sleeve was not salvageable. Now, you may go back to class.


It's okay man, you do not have to be a jerk about it

:grr

Back to class, I did go. I am rebuilding a LT250R top end there, and I was just boring the grooves from the cylinder and measuring it to determine about what over size piston I would need to get for it. And my instructor said ".080'' over is the maximum oversize that we can do for this."

I do see room to bore it more, but there must be a reason he said that, maybe because we are boring to recondition the cylinder and by all means, not squeeze its balls for my horses.

So tell me why might he have said that? And I would rule out that he is a crappy mechanic, they don't really let crappy mechanics teach this stuff, and also work in motorcycle shops.

I am only the student, soaking up the info, so enlighten me.

Jay

Originally posted by skemp
Yes, things can get ugly when circlips decide to come out and play..

The same thing happened on my sled, but the circlip broke rather than fall out. I don't have any pictures right now, but I will most likely have to resleeve. A bore would take care of it, but the problem is around the transfer ports, it hit the edge of the port and chunked it up pretty good. Luckily, the little ******* got shot out the exhaust before it could do much more damage. Head is still ok, which is nice, because it's a one piece head.

For future reference, be very careful when putting in circlips, make sure that they are seated properly in their grooves I have heard of a few guys putting JB Weld on the clips to make sure they can't move, but come time to tear it down, that could be a pain, and I think it would cause some binding problems and lead the breakage.

hey, how would the circlip make its way out the exhaust valves past the rings?

[skemp]

Jay- This is just FYI, but the instructor said that because that is how far you can bore an LT cylinder, on other quads, and any motor for that matter, the allowances for boring will be different. Like on a 400, you can go out to .120 before a resleeve or stroking. It is just that some sleeves are thicker or thinner, there is no universal number.

LRDrider, the circlip got out the exhaust because it worked its way between the piston and cylinder wall and into the combustion chamber, got bounced around for a while, and found its way out the exhaust port. This is on a 2 stroke mind you, so the internal design is much different than a 4 stroke. On a four stroke, it probably wouldn't have much of a chance of getting out the exhaust valve(s).

[Jay300ex]

Originally posted by skemp
Jay- This is just FYI, but the instructor said that because that is how far you can bore an LT cylinder, on other quads, and any motor for that matter, the allowances for boring will be different. Like on a 400, you can go out to .120 before a resleeve or stroking. It is just that some sleeves are thicker or thinner, there is no universal number.



That was what I was figuring, maximum bore sizes must differ if you can bore over that much. Yet it does make sense to me now, 2 strokes run a lot hotter and need more cylinder material I take it, and four strokes are different, perhaps there is even a difference if its liquid cooled or air cooled. A little logic and I learn see. THanks skemp

Jay

[skemp]

Actually, Jay, it isn't really a 2 or 4 stroke thing. Like on the '86 R's, you can go all the way out to .140, but on the '87-'89 only out .080. It is just in the sleeve and cylinder design. The determining factor is how much material must be left to eliminate cracking and overheating. The less material there is left in the bore, the less heat dissipation there will be.

[RED121572]

Originally posted by RED121572
In response to that reply, i would just like to say, :rolleyes:


400cc's 85mm
406cc's 86mm .040
416cc's 87mm .080
425cc's 88mm .120
440cc's 89mm .160 <------ *this is the pt where you must install new sleeve"

I said before, my stock sleeve was not salvageable. Now, you may go back to class.

I made a mistake, hope this corrects it.....

335cc's 89mm
440cc's 89.5mm

ok how would the circlip make its way past the rings is what im trying to figure out:huh

[skemp]

Well, in my case, it just forced its way through (scoring the piston and sleeve on its way). The rings were stuck.

Originally posted by skemp
Well, in my case, it just forced its way through (scoring the piston and sleeve on its way). The rings were stuck.

oooooooooooo, my piston was perfect except for the chunk missing and the big crack down the middle, my sleeve was perfect cept for my 2 gouges

how my engine loks all put back ogether with a 416 in it and polsihed cases

[jakal]

Dunno if its already been said, im too lazy to read the whole thing. But the last Wiseco piston I put in was really hard to get on there right. The clips would look like they were in when they werent and it took about 30 minutes to get it in there right (one side went in easy). Eventually we used the old pin to beat the clip in with a hammer and it finally set.