Anyone that is PRO GUN, take a min please

[Thumpin440ex]

It is simple, takes a min or two, to send this.
Things are starting to get crazy, for the most part NRA, GOA and others have set solid as where we stand at. Any way take min. And share it with people on other sites, Facebook, to spread the word

http://www.ruger.com/micros/advocacy/

[DragonGunner]

Yup, our 2 Ammendment rights are under attack by the ignorant and by the tyrants.

[TacicalRedneck]

what they've all been waiting for.........


beware of the propaganda to...

[gncc025]

thanks for starting this thread. every person we can get helps.


this guy has some information some of you may want to know.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/8yMcH60xX1o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Pappy]

Everyone had better be engaged in this issue.....

They can have mine....when they are empty and I am dead.

[K-Dub]

I agree with Pappy, or I will give them up 5 min after the secret service, police, and military give up theirs. The 2nd is all about us being armed equal to an infantry man in the US military, they go back to swords and bows so will I. And what part of "will not be infringed" do they not understand?

[slightlybent47]

Most law abiding Americans that own guns, registered them when they bought them.
With this list they know who and where most of these gun are. If they come for your guns and you try to fight them off, you will simply die. And what does that accomplish? You die, so there is less resistance and fewer people to control and they still get your guns. There more of them and they have better weapons. (Example, Waco Tx.)

I don’t understand the big rush to buy semi autos that are clip feed. If these guns are deemed illegal, then you now are in possion of an illegal weapon, and if caught, that’s a felony and that automatically excludes you from owning any type of firearm.
Most of these guns were registered, so they know who bought them, and they may come knocking on your door if you don’t voluntarily turn them over.
Scary, isn’t it?


Let’s take a look at our own history for a moment. When England tried to disarm the citizens before the formation of the United States, those that resisted were killed and those that complied were not. They tricked the English solders by only giving up there old worn out, out dated guns, to the satisfaction of the English, and saving there better weapons for the war to follow. Something to think about, our four fathers were very smart indeed.

[Thumpin440ex]

Trust me agree guys, it is sad days in America. The govt beginning to over stop their bounds, step all over our rights. I figured more people would have posted up in reff to this thread. Just on that petition alone has went up over 150k votes since yesterday. I hope for the ones who have looked but have not posted did take time to do this. This is SERIOUSLY a real thing, it is happening NOW.


Hickok45 is a good man, I have been a subscriber to his chan for a little bit. The fact is and he does it, is teach teach teach and let people know about guns, the hobbies, the life style.. We all know that guns are not the issue here, but the criminals that use them as such the weapon.

[K-Dub]

A unconstitutional law is not a law! In the words of Patrick Henry "Give me liberty or give me death".

"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so."
Thomas Jefferson

Every person in D.C. took an oath to protect and uphold the Constitution, why are none of them held accountable for breaking that oath? I do not understand that.

[440racer66]

Originally posted by slightlybent47
Most law abiding Americans that own guns, registered them when they bought them.
With this list they know who and where most of these gun are. If they come for your guns and you try to fight them off, you will simply die. And what does that accomplish? You die, so there is less resistance and fewer people to control and they still get your guns. There more of them and they have better weapons. (Example, Waco Tx.)

I don’t understand the big rush to buy semi autos that are clip feed. If these guns are deemed illegal, then you now are in possion of an illegal weapon, and if caught, that’s a felony and that automatically excludes you from owning any type of firearm.
Most of these guns were registered, so they know who bought them, and they may come knocking on your door if you don’t voluntarily turn them over.
Scary, isn’t it?


Let’s take a look at our own history for a moment. When England tried to disarm the citizens before the formation of the United States, those that resisted were killed and those that complied were not. They tricked the English solders by only giving up there old worn out, out dated guns, to the satisfaction of the English, and saving there better weapons for the war to follow. Something to think about, our four fathers were very smart indeed.

i would rather die in a pile of hot brass then let them take any of mine and around my neck of the woods people will be ready and it would take military action to kill us all off. and the problem with that is most of the poeple i know in the armed forces have said if they are asked to comply with this they will go awol . it only took 3 percent of the colonist to repel the brits. i feel like theres alot more then 3 percent that will stand up.not sayin its any different where your from. but i highly doubt they will try and round up the weapons.

[Pappy]

1st, Waco was not an attempt at a gun grab. The scale they would have to undertake to disarm us by force would be unreal, and they just do not have the forces to do it. The majority of LEO's I know will not follow that order nor would our military.

2nd, it is not a clip, it is a magazine unless you are referring to a weapon fed by a clip (M1 garand etc)

Yes, you filled out the paper work at the time of purchase but it is against the law for them to record it, but they do and are doing so unlawfully.

I will tell everyone here like I have told any person who asks me what I will do if they try to take my firearms and 2nd Amendment rights away......DO NOT BE THE FIRST ONE THRU THE DOOR!

I will die yes, but I will not die alone.

[Pappy]

And this is not just a "Pro Gun" issue, it is an issue that should have every American wide awake. This is an assault on our Constitution and as history shows, they will never stop chipping away at it.

Give them nothing!

[slightlybent47]

I know Waco wasn’t a gun grab, but it is an example of how the government can surround you and ether wait you out or come in and get you.
And your rite that many military personnel will not comply with an unlawful order against its own civilians, but many will. There are people in the military that do go along with the notion that guns in the hands of civilians shouldn’t be allowed and those are the ones that may choose to follow an unlawful order. Just like the civilians that agree with this idea that we can have guns.
Lets not forget that America has turned on itself once before, like the north vs. the south.
Under the rite conditions, it could happen again.

Keeping the constitution intact will never be at rest. It’s a battle we must fight for ever.
It has been attacked many times and will continue to be attacked as long as there are those that oppose it.

[edwardsp&b]

Guys, I dont think in any way can they take our guns we currently have. Not only is it unconstitutional, they would never try it. What they will do is ban ammuntion or try to make it really hard to get. Our weapons are no good without ammo. I went out a bought an assualt rifle a couple of weeks ago. I am now trying to stockpile my ammo, and Im in the market for a reloader. I wanted one just in case........

The scary part is how quick this country can turn from what we have now, to a mad max so to speak kind of lifestyle. All it would take is the power to go out on the eastern or western seaboard for a few weeks. Within 4 weeks of no power, and little water and fuel this country will tear itself apart. All this doomsday crap about nuclear, terrorists, I dont believe. But take away the electricity, and 90% of the population will go mad crazy and try to take with force what they dont have.

Sad world were living in.......
Bryan

[Pappy]

You bought an "Assault" weapon? By definition, you intend to make assaults with this weapon?


You bought a firearm, nothing more, nothing less. You give these liberal ****s ammo and they will use it on you!

[edwardsp&b]

Pappy as Im sure you know these liberals have the power to do what they want already.....I understand what your saying about the firearm vs. assault rifle. I dont plan to do anything with this gun other than keep it cleaned and in a good spot close. I bought this with the intention of it being an assault rifle......This is my second amendment right. The weapons ban (as of today) is not in effect. When the weapons ban from 94 does go back into effect, (which it will) they will not take our weapons we have currently. They simply dont have the manpower or intestinal fortitude to do so. They will however restrict the sale of or ban certain ammunitions......

Im not sure about the rest of the country, but I can promise you the South has enough weapons (registered or not) and people holding them than they couldnt ever take them away by force. Its crazy but I know firsthand, of more than 20 people that has built complete walkin gun safes in their basements. Im not talking about 10-15 guns either......I run a diesel and auto shop and you wouldnt believe the old ladys and different types of people that are packing. And they are proud to show you too!The ole timers down here have been saving up for a rainy day.....Some of the knuckleheads think the civil war is going to have a round 2!
Bryan

Bryan

[Pappy]

I am stating that you do not own an "Assault" weapon, you own a rifle capable of semi automatic fire. Even a full auto AR is not an assault weapon. By definition, assault is a misnomer.

And no, the Liberals only have as much power as we are willing to relinquish.

[DragonGunner]

The definition of "assualt rifle" has been changed. It changed in 1994 and re-defined some semi-auto's as "assault rifles". So the Liberals have already won that war. Currently it has 3 definitions. If and when they ban "assault rifles" again it will be the same semi-auto's as before. Right now NY has signed a ban, no gun with more than a 7 rd. clip or magazine.....you have a certain amount of time to get rid of anything over a 7 rd. mags and clips, only you can sell them outside of NY. So the M1 Garand used in CMP shoots would be illegal and a class A felony if you have the 8 rounds in the en bloc clip......and of course any legal handgun with 10 rd. mags will have to be sold or destroyed or you will be arrested.....what NY will do is anyones guess, most believe this will be fought in the courts......? O and there are several more pages to the gun laws there that are just as insane....

[Pappy]

Sorry, I will never concede that Liberals are right or correct. And as long as I draw a breathe and can fight....it aint over nor won by a long shot.

"According to the US Army’s definition for an assault rifle — found in Army intelligence document FSTC-CW-07-03-70 and subsequent editions — one of the qualifications for an assault rifle is that it be fully automatic, shooting multiple bullets with each squeeze of the trigger."

I will admit I was wrong about the term when used for the military, I guess they were forced to apply an actual term to a weapon to clarify things.

[gncc025]

Power in numbers. Some people these days think "its the government, they are going to do what they want to do and theres no way to stop it" thats what gets us in trouble. I dont let people in everyday life run over me with out a fight and I damn sure wont let the government do it either.

The NRA is going to be one of their biggest threats, so be sure to sign up! They need our support now more than ever.

[slightlybent47]

The last bill to try to make assault weapons illegal, failed for one reason. It included any weapon that held more the one bullet at a time.
This included all bolt action semi auto, pump shotguns and so on. It basically made anything that wasn’t a single shot gun illegal.

The thing that amazes me is these so called assault weapons are nothing more then the same semi auto that has been sold for decades as hunting rifles.
Only in the past ten years has the trend been to make these hunting rifles look like AR-15’s. The internal components are still the exact components that have been use in semi auto for years, they just look deferent.

Restricting ammo sales will do more then a gun ban. Without ammo you just have a piece of pipe with a nice stock mounted on it.

We can mold lead bullets, and we can make gun powder. But we cant make primers, witch is the key to making a firearm work.


The president said that his orders for registration will make it harder for criminals to get guns. Criminals don’t buy guns at gun stores, the get them off the street from other criminals that have stolen them from law abiding citizens.
The guns that were used in the sandy hill shooting were legal guns perches by he mother and stolen by her son.
If I was going to blame someone for that shooting, it would be his mother, because she knew he was unstable and left her guns where he could get his hands on them.
If those guns were kept locked up, that tragedy may never have happened.

Terrorist killed almost 3000 people and not a single gun was used. (box cutters)
McVeigh bombed the federal building and killed children and he never use a gun.
People were poisoned and died from tainted Tylenol back in the 90’s, no gun was used.
After 911, anthrax was sent through the mail and killed many people, again, no gun was used.
The list goes on and on.

Anti gun people are just using this last incident to further there agenda.

[FHKracingZ]

Originally posted by slightlybent47
The last bill to try to make assault weapons illegal, failed for one reason. It included any weapon that held more the one bullet at a time.
This included all bolt action semi auto, pump shotguns and so on. It basically made anything that wasn’t a single shot gun illegal.

The thing that amazes me is these so called assault weapons are nothing more then the same semi auto that has been sold for decades as hunting rifles.
Only in the past ten years has the trend been to make these hunting rifles look like AR-15’s. The internal components are still the exact components that have been use in semi auto for years, they just look deferent.

Restricting ammo sales will do more then a gun ban. Without ammo you just have a piece of pipe with a nice stock mounted on it.

We can mold lead bullets, and we can make gun powder. But we cant make primers, witch is the key to making a firearm work.


The president said that his orders for registration will make it harder for criminals to get guns. Criminals don’t buy guns at gun stores, the get them off the street from other criminals that have stolen them from law abiding citizens.
The guns that were used in the sandy hill shooting were legal guns perches by he mother and stolen by her son.
If I was going to blame someone for that shooting, it would be his mother, because she knew he was unstable and left her guns where he could get his hands on them.
If those guns were kept locked up, that tragedy may never have happened.

Terrorist killed almost 3000 people and not a single gun was used. (box cutters)
McVeigh bombed the federal building and killed children and he never use a gun.
People were poisoned and died from tainted Tylenol back in the 90’s, no gun was used.
After 911, anthrax was sent through the mail and killed many people, again, no gun was used.
The list goes on and on.

Anti gun people are just using this last incident to further there agenda.

You really believe that the terrorist alone armed with box cutters did that?

I expect a much more rational approach to things from somebody who has put some very informational post in this thread.

Everything happens for a reason. Do you think its coincidence that each time a "massacre" or "attack" happens that some radical policies pop in D.C.? The only way to gain public support in drastic changes is to strike fear into the citizens.

Laugh at my post all you want but the government has the power to do things that us regular citizens could not even fathom. But once again, we believed that a dorky med-school student acquired over $20,000 of tactical equipment and in his mean time because an expert in making high tech explosives before shooting up a theater in Aurora.

Use your head. When the government is no longer scared of the citizens then we have a big problem. Well we sure are headed that way!

[ben300]

Originally posted by FHKracingZ
You really believe that the terrorist alone armed with box cutters did that?

I expect a much more rational approach to things from somebody who has put some very informational post in this thread.

Everything happens for a reason. Do you think its coincidence that each time a "massacre" or "attack" happens that some radical policies pop in D.C.? The only way to gain public support in drastic changes is to strike fear into the citizens.

Laugh at my post all you want but the government has the power to do things that us regular citizens could not even fathom. But once again, we believed that a dorky med-school student acquired over $20,000 of tactical equipment and in his mean time because an expert in making high tech explosives before shooting up a theater in Aurora.

Use your head. When the government is no longer scared of the citizens then we have a big problem. Well we sure are headed that way!


BOOOM SON! ive been saying this all along!!! some people on this site said that i needed psychological help for suggesting that the government does things liket this and pulls these stunts just to get legislation passed

[slightlybent47]

Originally posted by FHKracingZ
You really believe that the terrorist alone armed with box cutters did that?

I expect a much more rational approach to things from somebody who has put some very informational post in this thread.

Everything happens for a reason. Do you think its coincidence that each time a "massacre" or "attack" happens that some radical policies pop in D.C.? The only way to gain public support in drastic changes is to strike fear into the citizens.

Laugh at my post all you want but the government has the power to do things that us regular citizens could not even fathom. But once again, we believed that a dorky med-school student acquired over $20,000 of tactical equipment and in his mean time because an expert in making high tech explosives before shooting up a theater in Aurora.

Use your head. When the government is no longer scared of the citizens then we have a big problem. Well we sure are headed that way!
They have been doing things behind the scenes that effect the political shape of our country since before this country was founded.
Conspiracy theorist have been making claims for ever, but they base there theory’s on circumstantial evidence and have never come up with hard proof.

It reminds me of the UFO people. You can give anyone a camera and tell them to take pictures and video all day long. And the pictures and videos come out looking very good with lots of detail.
Then you ask them to take pictures and video of UFO’s, suddenly, the camera is always out of focus, or it’s shaky video, or something else that makes the evidence questionable.

My whole point was that it doesn’t take a gun to do great harm to a lot of people.

They want to disarm Americans so they can better control us.

They only report the hyenas crimes against the weak. They never report how many times a law abiding citizen, has stopped someone because they were a CHL holder and was able to stop the aggressor. They sweep those stories under the rug.

[MX MaNiAc 06]

Couldn't give a crap what happens. Just wish it would happen so people would shut up about it.

[ben300]

Originally posted by slightlybent47
They have been doing things behind the scenes that effect the political shape of our country since before this country was founded.
Conspiracy theorist have been making claims for ever, but they base there theory’s on circumstantial evidence and have never come up with hard proof.

It reminds me of the UFO people. You can give anyone a camera and tell them to take pictures and video all day long. And the pictures and videos come out looking very good with lots of detail.
Then you ask them to take pictures and video of UFO’s, suddenly, the camera is always out of focus, or it’s shaky video, or something else that makes the evidence questionable.

My whole point was that it doesn’t take a gun to do great harm to a lot of people.

They want to disarm Americans so they can better control us.

They only report the hyenas crimes against the weak. They never report how many times a law abiding citizen, has stopped someone because they were a CHL holder and was able to stop the aggressor. They sweep those stories under the rug.


research the UN's "Agenda 21"....just do it

[DragonGunner]

Originally posted by ben300
BOOOM SON! ive been saying this all along!!! some people on this site said that i needed psychological help for suggesting that the government does things liket this and pulls these stunts just to get legislation passed


They were right.....you and the other guy. I also heard UFO's really attacked Pearl Harbor under FDR's orders.....Nixon after his bitter defeat to Kennedy was the 2nd gunman hiding on the grassy knoll......yes its true I've seen the pictures. And Elvis isn't really dead, I saw on the enquirer years ago that he is living near a grocery store in Michigan.

[slightlybent47]

That’s the main problem, so much disinformation has been reported that know one really knows what’s going on.
Propaganda is not just for the enemy, it also works on the general population of our own nation.

[Ruby Soho]

Originally posted by MX MaNiAc 06
Couldn't give a crap what happens. Just wish it would happen so people would shut up about it.

finally somebody on the same page! lol

and to be honest, if you're a conspiracy believer, why don't you take a ride to my town (newtown) and tell that to the broken homes here. think what you want, but don't go accusing. if your 5 yr old kids face was blown off id love to see you blame it on the government.

[muddy400EX]

Originally posted by Ruby Soho
finally somebody on the same page! lol

and to be honest, if you're a conspiracy believer, why don't you take a ride to my town (newtown) and tell that to the broken homes here. think what you want, but don't go accusing. if your 5 yr old kids face was blown off id love to see you blame it on the government.

the conspiracy theory's ive seen isn't sayin the kids were killed by the government, they're saying it didnt even happen. paid actors to play as grieving parents. supposedly dead victims showing up in pictures afterwards,etc

i know that some of the parent interview's were very strange, definitely didnt seem like parents who just lost a child
:confused:

[Ruby Soho]

im not going to argue about it, i am close friends with many guys in sandyhook fire department who saw things that make a grown man cry.

on top of that, those parents were in shock. still are, you or i cannot even imagine what its like to be in their shoes.

[muddy400EX]

Originally posted by Ruby Soho
im not going to argue about it, i am close friends with many guys in sandyhook fire department who saw things that make a grown man cry.

on top of that, those parents were in shock. still are, you or i cannot even imagine what its like to be in their shoes.

i know man,im not arguing and im not saying i believe it. anything can be made to look like a conspiracy

its just a horrible deal.

they could completely outlaw guns, but it still wont stop crazy people:(

[CJM]

Originally posted by muddy400EX


they could completely outlaw guns, but it still wont stop crazy people:(

And that my friends is exactly why gun control doesnt work.

[muddy400EX]

Originally posted by CJM
And that my friends is exactly why gun control doesnt work.

yep, it just leaves the good man defenseless

[muddy400EX]

and i dont even own i gun, would like to have 1 or 2 someday, but currently none

[edwardsp&b]

I couldnt imagine what the parents of those kids are going through.....Im not big on conspiricy theories, I believe what happened, happened. But there are employees of the goverment (namely Homeland Security) that are paid Crisis actors. This one woman has shown up at both Sandy Hook, and in the courtroom in Colorado. One time posing as a Sandy Hook parent.

This is a horrible situation, and an answer is not easy. There needs to be a better handling of the laws already on the books. The mother of that boy that did the killing, knew without a doubt, that he had mental issues. Why leave your guns around the house for him to have easy access? Getting a gun is this country, (the legal way) is pretty easy. They probably ought to dig a little deeper when purchasing a firearm. But total gun control, is definetly not the answer.

A quick story, I took my family to disney this summer and we stayed in a condo next to some people from England. Both of the men worked in downtown London. We talked about gun control for a few hours, and how the total ban works for them. The laws are very harsh (Mandatory 10 years with just gun, gun and bullets is 25 mandatory) They say that even the officers who arent able to carry, are scared to death of the criminals that are carrying. Let alone the average Joe..... I dont want to live like that, I want to know that I can go someplace, and not fear for my life.
Bryan

[ben300]

Originally posted by edwardsp&b
I couldnt imagine what the parents of those kids are going through.....Im not big on conspiricy theories, I believe what happened, happened. But there are employees of the goverment (namely Homeland Security) that are paid Crisis actors. This one woman has shown up at both Sandy Hook, and in the courtroom in Colorado. One time posing as a Sandy Hook parent.

This is a horrible situation, and an answer is not easy. There needs to be a better handling of the laws already on the books. The mother of that boy that did the killing, knew without a doubt, that he had mental issues. Why leave your guns around the house for him to have easy access? Getting a gun is this country, (the legal way) is pretty easy. They probably ought to dig a little deeper when purchasing a firearm. But total gun control, is definetly not the answer.

A quick story, I took my family to disney this summer and we stayed in a condo next to some people from England. Both of the men worked in downtown London. We talked about gun control for a few hours, and how the total ban works for them. The laws are very harsh (Mandatory 10 years with just gun, gun and bullets is 25 mandatory) They say that even the officers who arent able to carry, are scared to death of the criminals that are carrying. Let alone the average Joe..... I dont want to live like that, I want to know that I can go someplace, and not fear for my life.
Bryan


i spent part of this past summer on a business trip in NSW, Australia, just outside of Sydney for work. I was there when the Aurora shooting took place, so i was able to talk first hand to my co-workers about their gun laws and how they felt about guns.

not a single one of them were really to fond of their current gun laws there, but at the same time, none of them were really interested in owning any firearms, nor did they own any pre-ban. a couple of them actually said they would like to have some match grade rifles and one guy even stated that he would like to have a hand gun for home protection for his wife, but other than that, it was nearly impossible for them to own any type of firearm.


with that said, their media was very interesting to watch post shooting. lots of negative american banter from their news casters, and chastizing us for the fact that we dont have gun laws like they do. however, they seemed to have a very high rate of violent crime, especially beatings and assaults. i know in one week over there they had three separate murders in the Kings Cross district of Sydney. Kings Cross is kind of like their bar district. They have gangs of kids doing this thing called "the Kings Punch," where they just run up and punch some unsuspecting person in the back of the head has hard as they can and run away. in one week, an 18 year old kid, and ederly woman, and some middle aged guy died from these attacks.

[FHKracingZ]

Its great to see a perspective from people that have first hand accounts in other countries.

I think we all just need to be rational and logical to not only each other but the laws this great country was founded on.

There has to be some laws that could prevent the wrong people from having weapons all while respecting the law abiding citizens and their 2nd amendment.

Hopefully it gets settled soon! The last thing we need in this country is another thing to draw us farther apart from each other.

[ben300]

Originally posted by FHKracingZ
Its great to see a perspective from people that have first hand accounts in other countries.

it is nice seeing different perspectives. However, it also really makes you appreciate home a ton more.



I think we all just need to be rational and logical to not only each other but the laws this great country was founded on.

There has to be some laws that could prevent the wrong people from having weapons all while respecting the law abiding citizens and their 2nd amendment.

i do agree that we do probalby need a better back ground check system. my father has a small gun shop where he sells firearms and it is way way way to easy for some people to just come in and buy stuff. luckily we have never had someboyd ping on the PIC check.

i also feel that is also to easy for the wrong person or persons to get ahold of firearms at trade and gun shows.

i dont agree, however, with the government telling us that we cant have this many rounds in a magazine, or this many rounds in a gun, or this type of gun because its semi auto and looks liek somethign out of a Call of Duty game or a Jeremy Renner flick. i feel like thats a violation of my rights, and just a step closer to big brother having that much more control of us, so that they can just round us all up like cattle.


Hopefully it gets settled soon! The last thing we need in this country is another thing to draw us farther apart from each other.

but thats how it is with this current executive branch admin that runs this country. they want to divide us. they want us to hate each other. they want the poor to hate the well off. they want the middle class to hate the poor. they want the blacks hatign the whites and the whites hating the blacks. they want to pit the legals versus the illegals. its how they're working, and how they're gonna work over the next four years. and its gonna get worse, and its gonna get more progressive, and unfortunately, we're the ones that are ultimately accountable for what happens. we voted him in. i, nor you probably didnt, but 51% or so of the people that live and vote here did.

[slightlybent47]

Could be the government is selecting borderline psychotics, and by use of drugs and brain washing, are creating these monsters, to use as examples that guns are bad for society and further there agenda, and guns should be band.
They have been using patsies, to cover up all kinds of covert operations for years. Ozzwald was a patsie.

[CJM]

^ Probably true.

To push the elitist agenda there is no telling how far they will go.

[ben300]

Originally posted by slightlybent47
Could be the government is selecting borderline psychotics, and by use of drugs and brain washing, are creating these monsters, to use as examples that guns are bad for society and further there agenda, and guns should be band.
They have been using patsies, to cover up all kinds of covert operations for years. Ozzwald was a patsie.


Could be. But you better not say that though in this thread, you might piss people off wit your crazy conspiracy theories.

[OldGuyonaQuad]

It doesn't piss me off Ben but it does make me sad to think that a such a bright young man would suggest such a paranoid notion.

Government backed gun control advocates planted "Manchurian Candidates" are behind the school shootings. Really? You guys honestly believe that. I guess this is the same faction that was behind 9/11, the Kennedy Assassination & the fake moon landing. (for the record I don't believe the "single bullet theory")

Before any of you label me a bleeding heart liberal I would like to preface my reply with the following:

I think most gun owners are getting screwed over by a knee jerk reaction to a series of horrible events that doesn't come close to addressing the real problem.

I think the problem that led to those tragedies was more about mental health then it was about gun sales or clip sizes.

I'm the middle majority (or minority really) but I'm the swing vote (hopefully) that gun owner's want and need. I don't think I could support the current changes that this administration has put before us but I do agree something needs to be done.

Is it for me to say how many rounds someone else needs to be able to fire at a paper target? IDK for me, some of these weapons appear excessive, but at the same time I know a lot of tree huggers find my wanting to ride ATV's in the woods excessive.

Gun owners (if they care) need to go a better job of convincing the likes of me to support their cause with better arguments then:

A) Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

No crap guys but they do help to facilitate the process and Automatic weapons even more so. Murder has existed since the days of Cain and Able (& probably prior as well) and even if a complete gun ban was imposed (not saying it ever will or should happen) murder would still exist but IDK how any objective thinking person wouldn't acknowledge the murder rate would decline. you offer Timothy McVeigh and box cutters, why because they couldn't use guns for these acts otherwise it would have made it easier. Again I'm not saying we should or will ever ban hand guns I'm just asking you to put away your own agenda and think outside of the box objectively. Yes people kill people, guns help people kill more people. That is a plain undeniable truth no matter how you choose to slice and serve it.

B) The right to bear arms.

I'm a proud American, I don't agree with a great many things our elected officials do but I consider myself blessed to have been born here. The only constant in the universe is change. The right to bear arms was written into our constitution over 200 years ago, in a time when there was an absolute need to do so. Since then we have evolved as a society (for the most part). We have developed many mediums to protect our interests since 1776. We now have police forces, sheriffs offices as well as the national guard.

I don't think we "need to bare arms" anymore to protect ourselves but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to go hunting, skeet shooting or to protect your live stock from wildlife. I get all of that. I don't own any guns even though I have had several willed to me but I did have a great time skeet shooting with my friends and I feel much more comfortable riding in NEPA knowing my buddy is carrying in the event we come across a mother bear and her cubs.

These reasons should be the focal point of your argument (imho) not cliche slogans, government conspiracies or the notion that you need automatic weapons to protect yourself from your own government.

When you suggest that the government is behind the school shootings, or that you need automatic weapons to protect yourself from the very country in which you live or the coup de grace "They can have my gun when they remove it from my dead cold clutched hand" lines make me question your personal gun ownership and pushes me towards the other side.

Really if you don't agree with a law passed in our country by elected officials you answer is to jeopardize the life of you and your family and the official that has to enforce the law? That's not Democracy that's barbarism & akaik that just reeks of Butch Cassidy cowboy warship.

I haven't agreed with a lot of policies put before us by multiple administrations for a couple of decades but I never once threatened or suggested putting a bullet in someones head as my method of protest.

I could garner support for my cause and do my best to put the proper people in office whose views are the most similar to mine or I can go find somewhere else on the globe to live.

I apologize for the length of my reply but please carefully read all of it before you choose to label and rip me because my views are not in perfect alignment with yours. I've grown to know, like and respect many of you who post here even if I don't agree 100% with your view and I hope that you can say the same of me.

I'm not a liberal or conservative, Democrat or Republican I am an objective independent minded person who is perched on the fence looking for better direction to serve your cause.

Again I think gun owners are getting screwed over to make some elected officials feel better about themselves while not coming close to addressing the real problem.

Hopefully I didn't offend any of the many people I like here and you see that I am not your opposition.

[DragonGunner]

Oldguy....I'm a old guy too....lol.


I would like to civily diagree with you on one point,....."I don't think we need to bare arms anymore to protect ourselves anymore......needing them just for hunting and such...."

That goes against everything the 2 ammendment stands for...I know your from NJ....but really....?

Many people have used gun for personel protection, and it has saved their lives.....news seldom broadcast it though. It just happened last week when a man broke into a house, the woman at home with her twin sons hid in the attic and called her husband who called 911.....this happened in GA. The burglar broke in an made his way to the attic, she had the handgun her husband had just bought and trained her in shooting....she was forced to shoot the burglar. Thank God she did have a gun, and not for hunting.

The 2nd Ammendment is for as the last resort, for the people to be able to defend themselves from the government, as a last resort if government becomes tyrants and attacks them.

On another note in 2011 less than 350 murders were committed by rifles. of those only about 48 were "assault rifles". About 500 were killed by hammers and such.....and about 1700 killed by knives.....


Gun Control.......the right for a 110 lb woman to fistfight a 220 lb. rapist.

And yes...I carry a 1911 everyday, Thank God for free Indiana.

[muddy400EX]

Originally posted by DragonGunner
Oldguy....I'm a old guy too....lol.


I would like to civily diagree with you on one point,....."I don't think we need to bare arms anymore to protect ourselves anymore......needing them just for hunting and such...."

That goes against everything the 2 ammendment stands for...I know your from NJ....but really....?

Many people have used gun for personel protection, and it has saved their lives.....news seldom broadcast it though. It just happened last week when a man broke into a house, the woman at home with her twin sons hid in the attic and called her husband who called 911.....this happened in GA. The burglar broke in an made his way to the attic, she had the handgun her husband had just bought and trained her in shooting....she was forced to shoot the burglar. Thank God she did have a gun, and not for hunting.

The 2nd Ammendment is for as the last resort, for the people to be able to defend themselves from the government, as a last resort if government becomes tyrants and attacks them.

On another note in 2011 less than 350 murders were committed by rifles. of those only about 48 were "assault rifles". About 500 were killed by hammers and such.....and about 1700 killed by knives.....


Gun Control.......the right for a 110 lb woman to fistfight a 220 lb. rapist.

And yes...I carry a 1911 everyday, Thank God for free Indiana.

i heard that too, but you won't see it all over the news if it's guns being used to help somebody.

that would ruin their whole plan of trying to ban them

[honda400ex2003]

signed and added to my wall for all my friends who havent found this yet.

steve

[motochamp250]

Originally posted by OldGuyonaQuad

A) Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

No crap guys but they do help to facilitate the process and Automatic weapons even more so. Murder has existed since the days of Cain and Able (& probably prior as well) and even if a complete gun ban was imposed (not saying it ever will or should happen) murder would still exist but IDK how any objective thinking person wouldn't acknowledge the murder rate would decline. you offer Timothy McVeigh and box cutters, why because they couldn't use guns for these acts otherwise it would have made it easier. Again I'm not saying we should or will ever ban hand guns I'm just asking you to put away your own agenda and think outside of the box objectively. Yes people kill people, guns help people kill more people. That is a plain undeniable truth no matter how you choose to slice and serve it.

B) The right to bear arms.

I'm a proud American, I don't agree with a great many things our elected officials do but I consider myself blessed to have been born here. The only constant in the universe is change. The right to bear arms was written into our constitution over 200 years ago, in a time when there was an absolute need to do so. Since then we have evolved as a society (for the most part). We have developed many mediums to protect our interests since 1776. We now have police forces, sheriffs offices as well as the national guard.



Really? the criminals are going to get guns, whether they are banned or not. I was unaware that they actually started following the law? Look up the REAL facts. The US has the highest gun ownership per capita in the world, but we are far from the highest firearm murder rate in the world. Concealed carry and weapons ownership LOWERS the crime/murder rate.

Call your sheriff department, police force, and national guard when someone has broken into your house and is threatening your life, and see if (hope) they get there in time. The only thing that stops a bad person with a gun, is a good person with a gun.

We need enforcement of the 20k+ laws we have now, not MORE laws, which by the way even biden says we can't enforce.
Vice-President Biden said, “And to your point, Mr. Baker, regarding the lack of prosecutions on lying on Form 4473s, we simply don’t have the time or manpower to prosecute everybody who lies on a form, that checks a wrong box, that answers a question inaccurately.” That’s right: Biden said the administration just doesn’t have time to prosecute crimes (felonies punishable by up to a 10-year prison sentence) under existing laws, but is proposing a host of sweeping new laws.


I agree with Nugent. Even if there was no document or "nation", and i just landed here randomly. I don't need a document. And I don't need some eggheads in washington telling me how and when and if i can defend myself. Especially, when same said persons are relying on multiple armed to the teeth guards to protect them. the 2nd amendment IS my concealed carry permit. Just watch the video though, pretty much echoes my thoughts.... maybe i'm weird:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6L-2WFq79dU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[motochamp250]

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria)


"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment
during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

"On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
- Thomas Jefferson

"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; …"
Samuel Adams
quoted in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789, "Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State"

"The greatest danger to American freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution."
Thomas Jefferson
Third President of the United States

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Ben Franklin
American Statesman

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
- George Washington

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson

edit:
If you don't want to own guns, then that's fine, and a personal choice. But don't push your views on me, and demonize me, a law abiding and responsible gun owner. also, what is one of your biggest hobbies? Prolly be singing a different tune, if that's what they were discussing banning......

[TCracin440ex]

^^^^^ amen on both your posts wish there was a like button on this forum. i too am a law biding citizen and to think my government is trying to disarm me is just making me sick. i could go on and on.

[OldGuyonaQuad]

Dragon thank you for taking the time to read my reply and for your reply. We don't see eye to eye on everything but I do respect you and your feelings.

Motochamp thanks for feeding into the very reason I didn't want to post this here in the first place. You took what you wanted from my post and took a defensive posture towards gun ownership which I never threatened.

I made it obvious more then once that I don't support the current gun law measures that are being proposed. I never once suggested that there should be a complete gun ban. I asked you to set aside your personal preferences and agendas for a second and hypothesize if the murder rate would go down in a world without hand guns. How could it not? I never once suggested a gun ban or that you be helpless while criminals are armed but this notion that people kill people not guns is a weak argument.

Yes NJ really...not sure what you meant by that but we are a very diverse state. Most people associate us with North Jersey and New York forgetting that we are the garden state, jersey tomatoes and yes we have plenty of gun/hunting clubs and shooting ranges to go along with our murder rate and crime.

I'm sorry but this notion that you need guns to protect yourself from tyrants in our own government is tough to swallow. If you are really that afraid of our own government it's time to start looking for a new place to live or do a better job of electing officials whose views align with your own. It's been 200 + years since we birthed this nation change and evolution are inevitable.

I support your cause right now, I was trying to show you how to steer some of the other fence dwellers towards your side of the issue.

IDK where you guys get your stats from but I pulled this from the Washington Post. In most cases we lead the world in these ugly stats less South American and African countries (& Italy wtf insert Mafia joke here____)where complete lawlessness rules the land.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/nation/gun-homicides-ownership/table/

Again I'm not the opposition here I'm asking you to try and take a more objective look at some weak points in your own arguments as perceived by me, I'm not trying to take away your toys boys I'm trying to show you how to go about keeping them.

If you are going to win this debate it will be on the backs of the middle majority (or minority) and the likes of me or people who think some what like I do.

If you all posted this stuff to garner support form outside of your own ranks you will appreciate where I am coming from. If not I will apologize for not joining the masses of back patting Yosemite Sam's with their chests all puffed out suggesting that they would give or take a bullet rather then follow a law that they don't agree with. That's not Democracy that's barbarism and I will go on record questioning gun ownership of anyone who honestly feels that way.

I know this isn't a popular opinion here and the last thing I would want to do is alienate some of the friends I have made here just because my views aren't perfectly aligned with yours.

It's because of some of your views here and (Pappy's) facebook that I was better able to educate myself on both sides of this issue and form my current opinion so please don't just dismiss me or anyone who doesn't think exactly like you.

/recite serenity prayer

[Pappy]

The biggest issue gun owners will face moving forward is simply there will eventually be less and less of us. The past decade has seen an explosion of CCW or self defense groups. They are just realizing what many of us grew up with.....you protect yourself LOL.

While we may have experienced a growth spurt, the pure fact that hunting will decline, shooting will decline and I am not sure if the CCW/protection crowd will be big enough to carry the fight. Right now, we have the numbers.

As far as the government.....I do not buy into the conspiracy junk. For one, you can't keep a secret, especially in politics. I do feel the 2nd Amendment clearly states its full intentions and tyranny is always a possibility but shouldn't be the only argument for keeping the 2nd amendment intact as is.

Let's face it, our elected officials are off their rocker on all sides. We have to get engaged and involved and make some changes. They have taxed and regulated us to death with our own money LOL!

I commented today to someone about human nature and history. We were more violent before the firearm excluding wars(as far as loss of life). You could ban every firearm in this country and only criminals would have them.

And if you believe banning all firearms worldwide is the answer, then you should read up on Agenda 21. Not that I buy that either, just makes for another angle on things......

[slightlybent47]

We had another school shooting today. Just down the road from me. Though it looks like it was more a dispute between to kids and not a mass type shooting, there were still several kids shot.
I’m all for some “qualified” teachers to carry guns in the class room.
I am for “all” teachers to carry a stun gun.
But with that I think there should be some “very” strict guide lines and “extensive” training before they are allowed to carry a real gun. Also the type of gun should be restricted. Not everyone can or can be trained to make the split second life or death decision, one needs in that kind of environment.
The training is to insure that when a bullet is fired, it has only one place it can go, down range. Once it fired, it can’t be stopped. Like the police are trained to always be aware of what is down range if they miss there target.
We don’t want stray bullets intended to stop a bad guy, to strike in innocent bystander.
Also the teachers “must” make sure there weapon is not taken away and use against them and other students.
Maybe the teachers need “smart guns” that can only be fired by the teacher only. (They do exist)
Some of these big kids are bigger and stronger then some of the teachers, so there should many factors looked at “very” carefully before we do this.
If done correctly, and responsibly, I’m all for it.

[Pappy]

This another way the media is playing us.....

"School shooting"

It was at a university. And early reports it was a dispute not a shooting spree, yet for the first few hours the media played it like it was another one of these mass shooting deals. Instant ratings, views and attention to the hawkers.....

Reminds me of the 80's....and 3 wheeler accidents. Every week, a hyped commercial for 20/20 would air showing another deadly tragedy from those damned evil machines. They failed to mention the drunk idiot operating it.....blamed the trike and where are they now?

[edwardsp&b]

I had a police officer tell me this story one time.....

This happened about 5 miles from where I live a couple of years ago. There was an older man, living by himself. He really didnt have a bunch of family, and his wife had passed long ago. He was in his late 80's and could hardly get around. He had hospice at his home during the day, but the nights were when he was vulnerable. For a couple of weeks some young thugs would come and ransack his house, stealing food, money, whatever they saw. Poor old man would be sitting in his recliner and they would hit him or hold him at gunpoint and rob him. This happened several times before anything happened. Sometimes they would just come in quickly take what they wanted, before he could get up, or get to a phone. Finally, he decided to arm himself. He told the officer that he started sitting in his recliner with the shotgun in his lap. One night they came through the door, to the surprise of buckshot. When my officer friend said he arrived on scene, the man was still sitting in his recliner, and two dead punks on the front steps. The officer said the bodies were already getting stiff, indicating they had been there for an hour or so. In one of the guys hands was a rusty old steaknife. The man told officers the assailant was entering his house and he saw the steaknife and shot. Funny thing is, it was the mans steaknife. He wanted to make sure not to get into trouble so he took his steaknife and planted on the suspect. Investigators knew what was going on, but wrote it up as the man fearing for his life. Im willing to bet, nobody in his neighborhood ever tried to attack him again.

Point is, Its not just the point of owning a gun, but the threat of gun ownership that will stop some dirtbags from even trying to harm others. A rapist is alot less likely to attack a woman they think is armed.
Bryan

[DragonGunner]

Originally posted by Pappy
This another way the media is playing us.....

"School shooting"

It was at a university. And early reports it was a dispute not a shooting spree, yet for the first few hours the media played it like it was another one of these mass shooting deals. Instant ratings, views and attention to the hawkers.....

Reminds me of the 80's....and 3 wheeler accidents. Every week, a hyped commercial for 20/20 would air showing another deadly tragedy from those damned evil machines. They failed to mention the drunk idiot operating it.....blamed the trike and where are they now?



I think more people get hurt and killed on quads than they ever did on 3 wheelers.....guys can't believe how fast I am on a ATC...started out in 79' on a Honda 110.....still have 3. And ride them all the time, sometimes alot funner than quads....

Alot of governments start off with gun bans, and it leads to BAD things, lack of freedom being first.

Turkey established gun control in 1911, right after that 1.5 million Armenians unable to defend themselves were rounded up and killed.

Guetemala established gun control in 1964. right after that 100,000 Mayan Indians were rounded up and killed.

Uganda established gun control in 1970, and right after that 300,000 Christians were rounded up and killed.

We don't need to discuss Germany do we.....


...

[DragonGunner]

Makes me proud I'm a Vet. The Chicago libtard who doesn't think the 2 ammendment is for us anymore gets his *** owned....love it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjVD4ZVBPWk
.