what 450

[drillteamleader]

I am bored with my 400 and i'm looking for a 450. Ltr trx or kfx? many local quads for under $4000 with mods. I mostly ride trails and small mx jumps but I do race a harescramble in the snow once a year. My 400 has +2 arms now with 3+2 rims. in the winter I use 4+1. I would like to stay with a quad similar in width.

[#484]

Ltrs are too wide, Kfxs I have been told are expensive to maintain for racing, Trx's are great,but don't forget a Yfz ! If your a smaller guy like me, they fit like a glove and they are fast, light and fun.

[CJM]

Trx hands down. Cheapest, most reliable and easiest to repair. LTR is fast but very wide and has electronics out the arse, kawi doesnt handle all to well but you do get reverse, yamaha is ok but they dont make torque-more horsepower.

Find a kicker and make it yours. The trans is stronger and they reliably start vs the electric starts which sometimes dont like to kick over all to easy. Buy it cheap do some mods and you have one hell of a fast machine.

[dxcody]

We ride pretty tight trails around here and my buddy has an LTR. It is tight in some spots but the power and overall handling is so much better than the other 450's that it kinda makes up for it.

With that being said, I would NEVER own an LTR. There is 3 different fuel filters on them, and they all clog up fairly often.

Parts for them are 2x as much as any other 450.

Really, look between honda and Yamaha.

The old Honda's aren't as fast as the newer ones. My buddy that races A class just witched from an 04 Honda to a 08 and he said there is a huge difference.

But you have to check the valves a little more often and they have had trouble with the E start just like CJM said.

The YFZ is a nice quad.. But the handling on them is kinda poor until you get a good steering stabilizer and some front shocks.

The YFZ and TRX are the 2 cheapest to maintain and probably overall the most reliable.

[drillteamleader]

there is also a ktm 450xc local almost never ridden for 4800. But the honda is still on the top of my list mostly so I can use some of the parts from my 400. How wide is a stock honda?

[CJM]

Originally posted by drillteamleader
there is also a ktm 450xc local almost never ridden for 4800. But the honda is still on the top of my list mostly so I can use some of the parts from my 400. How wide is a stock honda?

Stock honda is about 45" add some +1s and your right around around 47". LTR is still wider, closer to 48-49" i wanna say.

As for the KTM. KTM is ok but every part ont hat thing is non standard and re badged whatever that KTM uses. They do build nice quads but they aint worth it imho.

Personally I like the honda, yamaha isnt bad but like I said it doesnt have that snappy throttle the hondas do. Just a personal pet peeve of mine, I like that torque they got.

[KKiowaTJ]

Id go with a honda trx. Cheap and you can pick and choose what platform to build from.
Down in se iowa i have watched them go for $2400 avg. ballpark built. Im sure they are going cheaper with xmas bills to pay. KTM's look good but i know honda is reliable, Cheap and fast. Good luck either way

[Pittsburgh400ex]

Originally posted by CJM
Stock honda is about 45" add some +1s and your right around around 47". LTR is still wider, closer to 48-49" i wanna say.




Specs say 49.0 on the dot but i am positive my friend's ltr is 50 on the nose, no aftermarket on it. Just holeshot XCT's all around.

[dxcody]

Originally posted by Pittsburgh400ex
Specs say 49.0 on the dot but i am positive my friend's ltr is 50 on the nose, no aftermarket on it. Just holeshot XCT's all around.

My buddies measures 48 1/2

4:1 hiper fronts with GBC Xrex

[drillteamleader]

My 400 with 3+2 is right at 49 and 50 in the back. So if I can make the Ltr 47 or 48 for the one race a year that would be fine. With the KTM I would have reverse and power and good suspension. Its just the reliability that concerns me. But I can fix anything that goes wrong myself. This is a hard decision. I wish I had a way to ride them all first.

[CJM]

All I can say is there is a very distinct reason why you see mostly hondas and yamhas out there vs most anything else-they aint busted like the others lol. Specially the honda.

But buy whatever catches your fancy.

[dxcody]

CAN AM! lol

I wish I could afford one.

[KKiowaTJ]

Is it for the mississippi valley fair race by chance?

If so my stock 400 did better than half the posers whos mommy and daddys money got beat by a 1/10 of the price.

I reccomend to KTM and can-am to others all the time, So i know thats a couple that will fail so ill place better. The honda's are always top 5 unless you get a guy who gets to race the quad for free to boost sales on KTM etc.

[DragonGunner]

Originally posted by dxcody
CAN AM! lol

I wish I could afford one.





I would like to ride one, I also would like to ride a YFZ. Had a friend that had a 450R, he got it used and had alot of problems, somehow he got a YFZ450. He rode both and sold the Honda, said the YFZ handled so much better an he go way faster on it, he was super fast on that YFZ espicially in the corners. Some guys will do alot better on certain quads, its finding one thats the best for you. I have a KTM motor in mine now and I'm sold on those motors. The KTM quads I have heard have a great frame and shocks....so guess I would like to ride one of them too!!!

[drillteamleader]

Not fair grounds race. The only race I do is the tri city frozen toe race. I am fast in the snow. I would probably be good at harescrambles but I drag race my cars in the summer. The only down side to the Honda is the money it takes to make it like I want or to buy one already done.

[ish416]

My pros and cons on each of the 450s. This is based on my experience and nothing else.

Honda 450's are great if you want to spend money to be competitive. Unless they have engine work they are the slowest 450s stock and still the slowest after the typical mods (intake, exhaust, rejet). They also have a tendency to push with the front end on the 06+. They are no more reliable from a mechanical standpoint than the other 450's with the exception of the KTM and early Can-Am's. If your looking to get one, get an 04-05.

The YFZ in all it's versions (R/X/Carb) are great machines assuming you are under 6"0. If you are, you will likely love it. They have great power, great handling and great reliability. I am 6'3 and even with a +3" steering stem I can't feel comfortable on one. The peg/seat/bars ergonomics are not made for larger people as I am constantly hitting my knees on the bars even with a +3" stem.

The KFX450R is great with a little bit of work. The quickest of all 450's once basic mods are done (intake, exhaust, fuel controller). Add cam's and porting and you have yourself a reliable power house of an engine, typically too much power in the woods. Preventative maintenance is key on the Kawi. Take precautions with either a race cut harness or make sure that there are no grounding issues and you should be good. Swapping out stock tires and making sure the toe is set correctly is also key. Do the basic power mods, swap out the tires and check the toe, spend time dialing in the suspension then add a stabilizer and you have a very capable machine. More so on this than on either the Honda or Yamaha. It just requires more of your time to get setup properly.

The LTR does not work in tight trails. In the woods I ride in, my friends LTR in some places simply can't fit between the trees. It does everything else well with the exception of maintenance which has been mentioned. Need 20" tires for woods. These are great quads, they are just too wide for woods in my area.

The Can-Am's are good stock but not much better with basic mods. They seem to be very finicky and each seems to have it's own personality. I know the early models had issues with the clutches and the frames coming apart. Haven't heard anything bad on the new ones but I don't go out of my way to look at them either.

The KTM is the factory race quad that never should have been. These things are junk. If you want to DNF get one. I know several people who bought them, and DNF'd their first race because the engine let go. The chassis is great but that engine is a grenade. Of the 3 people I know that bought one, all of them have had engine failures within the first 4 months.

The Polaris 450 would require to much work to be raced in the woods and has that wonderfully junk KTM engine.

[drillteamleader]

I really like the kawi but i heard they were junk. as far as the width on the ltr. this width is what i'm used to. so as long as i can make it down to 48 for the frozen toe race it would be fine. As bad as I want a KTM the reliability sucks so that is a no. The only advantage I would have buying a honda at this point is that some of my parts will work off my 400. There are 3 quads i have been looking at.

06 ltr 450 basic ltr mods brand new dwt beadlocks steering stem bars and nerfs. This guy doesnt like mud dust or snow. So it has very little run time. Not sure if he was origional owner. $3800

07 honda 450r all stock with nerfs and good tires. Never raced only trail riding $2950(seams like a good price)

08 kfx 450r fuelatv intake full dasa pipe and I think it is $4200

If I buy honda I can use my bumper stem bars and clamp steering stabalizer shocks? axle and carrier?

[CJM]

-Shocks will fit but might be too short.
-Stem will not fit
-Bars will fit no problem
-Steering stabalizer might work
-Axle may work
-carrier is different.

[DragonGunner]

Originally posted by ish416
My pros and cons on each of the 450s. This is based on my experience and nothing else.

Honda 450's are great if you want to spend money to be competitive. Unless they have engine work they are the slowest 450s stock and still the slowest after the typical mods (intake, exhaust, rejet). They also have a tendency to push with the front end on the 06+. They are no more reliable from a mechanical standpoint than the other 450's with the exception of the KTM and early Can-Am's. If your looking to get one, get an 04-05.

The YFZ in all it's versions (R/X/Carb) are great machines assuming you are under 6"0. If you are, you will likely love it. They have great power, great handling and great reliability. I am 6'3 and even with a +3" steering stem I can't feel comfortable on one. The peg/seat/bars ergonomics are not made for larger people as I am constantly hitting my knees on the bars even with a +3" stem.

The KFX450R is great with a little bit of work. The quickest of all 450's once basic mods are done (intake, exhaust, fuel controller). Add cam's and porting and you have yourself a reliable power house of an engine, typically too much power in the woods. Preventative maintenance is key on the Kawi. Take precautions with either a race cut harness or make sure that there are no grounding issues and you should be good. Swapping out stock tires and making sure the toe is set correctly is also key. Do the basic power mods, swap out the tires and check the toe, spend time dialing in the suspension then add a stabilizer and you have a very capable machine. More so on this than on either the Honda or Yamaha. It just requires more of your time to get setup properly.

The LTR does not work in tight trails. In the woods I ride in, my friends LTR in some places simply can't fit between the trees. It does everything else well with the exception of maintenance which has been mentioned. Need 20" tires for woods. These are great quads, they are just too wide for woods in my area.

The Can-Am's are good stock but not much better with basic mods. They seem to be very finicky and each seems to have it's own personality. I know the early models had issues with the clutches and the frames coming apart. Haven't heard anything bad on the new ones but I don't go out of my way to look at them either.

The KTM is the factory race quad that never should have been. These things are junk. If you want to DNF get one. I know several people who bought them, and DNF'd their first race because the engine let go. The chassis is great but that engine is a grenade. Of the 3 people I know that bought one, all of them have had engine failures within the first 4 months.

The Polaris 450 would require to much work to be raced in the woods and has that wonderfully junk KTM engine.


Any ideal why the KTM quad engines are junk? Are they that much different than the motorcycle KTM engines? Which are super reliable.

[drillteamleader]

the kawi is $3900

There is also an 05 honda with a pipe for $2500

and an 08 honda at the dealer with a pipe and nerfs for $4200

[CJM]

Buy the 05 for as little as the guys willing to pay, spend the extra cash on whatever you want plus a hotcam and 12:1 piston. You wont be disappointed.

[ish416]

Originally posted by DragonGunner
Any ideal why the KTM quad engines are junk? Are they that much different than the motorcycle KTM engines? Which are super reliable.

The quality of their bikes has suffered a lot recently too. The early 2010 models were the last solid engines they made.

From what I can gather by talking to various mechanics, dealers and racers, it seems that the OEM parts are basically crap now.

I was told that about 2 years before they were bought/merged by Bajaj (an Indian company) they were getting some parts manufactured in China and India (pistons, rods, cranks, etc) using cheaper quality metals to lower their cost and drive up their profits. Now, after being bought/merged their quality has continued to dive as they are now attempting to make their investors happy.


Originally posted by CJM
Buy the 05 for as little as the guys willing to pay, spend the extra cash on whatever you want plus a hotcam and 12:1 piston. You wont be disappointed.

You will be disappointed after you ride any modern 450 with basic bolt ons. Here are a few drag races between my KFX450R with just an intake and fuel controller (stock exhaust) and a fully built (13:1 piston, ported head, FCR carb, custom ground cam, Yoshimura exhaust, K&N filter) 05 Baldwin Racing Honda 450R.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Tr_UiYYz0NY?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[CJM]

IDK I watched race after race after race of my buddies with a yfz and 06+ 450. yfz had power commander and exhaust, 450 had exhaust, hrc kit. Came down to the rider at that point. 450 rider was 250lbs vs 200 for yfz rider.

Ill stick with the honda, thanks. Straight up drag racing it might not be allt hat fast, but on the trails it dominates b/c it handles well.

[DragonGunner]

Thanks for the info...I never heard that about KTM, thats a shame, glad I got a 2002 engine. The 2000 to 2002 engines were faster than the 03' on, something about they made the intake and exhaust bigger on the head and it hurt it.

As far as the drag races there is something wrong with the Honda, jetting....gearing. Something ain't right there.

[ish416]

As far as the drag races there is something wrong with the Honda, jetting....gearing. Something ain't right there.

That Honda put down 55whp according to Baldwin. 14/39 gearing and 20" I-razrs with tire balls and spot on jetting. This quad actually won the IXCR C class championship several years ago so I can assure you it was running correctly at the time of the video.

It has been fully rebuilt a little over a year ago by MotoXperts in Lafayette, IN and is definitely much faster now than it was before (51whp on their dyno). Somehow it's still not enough to run with my KFX with just a full intake, exhaust, cams, a tune and 15T front sprocket or an '11 YFZ450X with FCI intake, HMF exhaust, 06 YZF intake cam and fuel controller. Given, this quad is about 40 - 50 lbs heavier than a KFX or YFZ it should still easily pull away from us but it doesn't.

The point of the post is to show that the 04-05 Honda's need a lot of work to be competitive with the newer class of 450s in regards to power.

[drillteamleader]

From a roll they looked about the same. For the money I want to spend, the ltr is the best deal, but the honda is still a possability. I would have to tear the honda down and go through the motor right away just to be safe. So after that the price is more than the ltr if I want it to be wide. The kawi looks like a good buy also, but I would have to spend a bunch of money on suspension there also. I am a big honda fan but the ltr is the cheapest way to get what I want. After looking around I found that the z400 hubs machined down a little will narrow the rear width and an offset front wheel will get the front close.

[drillteamleader]

My other option is dump more money my 400, but I don;t think it be enuf to make me not want a better platform that the 450's have to work with.

[DragonGunner]

Originally posted by ish416
That Honda put down 55whp according to Baldwin. 14/39 gearing and 20" I-razrs with tire balls and spot on jetting. This quad actually won the IXCR C class championship several years ago so I can assure you it was running correctly at the time of the video.

It has been fully rebuilt a little over a year ago by MotoXperts in Lafayette, IN and is definitely much faster now than it was before (51whp on their dyno). Somehow it's still not enough to run with my KFX with just a full intake, exhaust, cams, a tune and 15T front sprocket or an '11 YFZ450X with FCI intake, HMF exhaust, 06 YZF intake cam and fuel controller. Given, this quad is about 40 - 50 lbs heavier than a KFX or YFZ it should still easily pull away from us but it doesn't.

The point of the post is to show that the 04-05 Honda's need a lot of work to be competitive with the newer class of 450s in regards to power. Good info....My brother in law bought his 450r in 04' with a HRC modified airbox...I sold him on a full CT Racing exhaust, re jetted and the thing is fast. With your friends "55" hp. Honda I would not be going with a 39 rear, just one tooth makes a BIG differance....for tight muddy trails like XC it would be good, I've gone that way before ina muddy swappy xc race and it was the right thing to do.....put a 38 on there, or if it was me a 36 tooth and that thing will rip, and with that much hp it won't hurt it bottom...but for drag race he is loosing out big time on top end. Also I'm not sure how heavy his tires are...when I have my 6 ply RazrII on my KTM hybrid they weigh 25 lb. ea. and 450R with 18" tires will beat me in 200yd drags right from the get go....I put on my bead lock razr 18" tire that I think way around 11 lbs ea. and its no contest.....we did this at bad lands, the only guy that beat me was a Quadzilla 500 2 stroke with padels and we got down to the end and look behind him and only saw me about 2 quad lengths behind him he about fill off his quad....he got me good on take off but I was catching him, 300 yds I would of got him.....so get your buddy on that Hionda with some light weight 18" and smaller rear sprocket....however I can't imagine what your KFX would do with a aftermarket exhaust!!

[ish416]

Originally posted by drillteamleader
From a roll they looked about the same. For the money I want to spend, the ltr is the best deal, but the honda is still a possability. I would have to tear the honda down and go through the motor right away just to be safe. So after that the price is more than the ltr if I want it to be wide. The kawi looks like a good buy also, but I would have to spend a bunch of money on suspension there also. I am a big honda fan but the ltr is the cheapest way to get what I want. After looking around I found that the z400 hubs machined down a little will narrow the rear width and an offset front wheel will get the front close.

I would go ride everything you can. It's a buyers market on used ATV's so you have plenty of options.

That LTR sounds pretty good, especially if you can knock it down a few hundred dollars. Remember these need larger tires on the front and rear. The stock 20" front and 18" rear tires are great for MX but terrible on trails because of no ground clearance. Also invest in a nice full frame and swing arm skid plates. I would recommend PRM skids on anything you buy. So factor that into your purchase along with doing basic maintenance (fluid, filters, and greasing pivot points and bearings) and also the need for Z400 hubs and offset wheels. At that point, the cost is going to go upwards quite a bit from what the person is asking.


Originally posted by DragonGunner
Good info....My brother in law bought his 450r in 04' with a HRC modified airbox...I sold him on a full CT Racing exhaust, re jetted and the thing is fast. With your friends "55" hp. Honda I would not be going with a 39 rear, just one tooth makes a BIG differance....for tight muddy trails like XC it would be good, I've gone that way before ina muddy swappy xc race and it was the right thing to do.....put a 38 on there, or if it was me a 36 tooth and that thing will rip, and with that much hp it won't hurt it bottom...but for drag race he is loosing out big time on top end. Also I'm not sure how heavy his tires are...when I have my 6 ply RazrII on my KTM hybrid they weigh 25 lb. ea. and 450R with 18" tires will beat me in 200yd drags right from the get go....I put on my bead lock razr 18" tire that I think way around 11 lbs ea. and its no contest.....we did this at bad lands, the only guy that beat me was a Quadzilla 500 2 stroke with padels and we got down to the end and look behind him and only saw me about 2 quad lengths behind him he about fill off his quad....he got me good on take off but I was catching him, 300 yds I would of got him.....so get your buddy on that Hionda with some light weight 18" and smaller rear sprocket....however I can't imagine what your KFX would do with a aftermarket exhaust!!

As for the 55 hp claim. I am just going to say that I am quite positive that Baldwin either fudges their numbers or their dyno reads quite high. As after the MXP build they dyno'd it at 51 yet the quad is quite a bit faster than the Baldwin build. As you could probably tell, the Honda is setup for XC racing. At the time of the race I posted earlier, the Honda had about 4 or 5 mph top speed on my KFX. Yet it couldn't close the gap in a .2 mile drag race.

As for the gearing and tires. The Honda doesn't have the torque to really pull much higher gearing and any lower and your constantly going between first through third, whereas now it's mostly first and second. First gear on that quad is super tall. It's roughly the equivalent of 2nd gear @ 3/4 throttle on my stock geared 400EX. We initially thought it was the tires slowing it down. So we swapped out to stock 450R tires. It was the same outcome. Even when we went to Silver Lake, we raced, same outcome and he was running Skat Trak Haulers and I was running Skat Trak Edges. At that point he had every advantage possible but still couldn't consistently beat my KFX.

My KFX with just a full Pro Circuit Ti 4 exhaust, KN intake, Power Command 5 and Stg 2 Hotcams dyno'd 49hp @ 8700 rpm and 35ft lbs @ 6700 rpm which makes me think this dyno reads a few hp high. The only other quad I know that was on this dyno was a friends Raptor 700 with intake, exhaust and power commander and it made a little over 50hp and about 50ft lbs. So going by that I would say this dyno reads about 3 hp high.

DragonGunner, we will have to meet up and go ride sometime. I'm up for anywhere but Haspin Acres (Laurel, Indiana).

[DragonGunner]

LOL....haven't been to Haspin in yrs.....was first there around 2001 and it wasn't bad, but every year it got worse and worse, and don't go after a rain or spring when ground is thawing....I did see you tube of the track now and it looked pretty good. I usually go to Bad Lands by myself a couple times a yr. And wife and I made it up to Silver Lake this yr. Hadn't been up there for awhile. We were out all yesterday and into the night at our local area called the "Bog', campfire and food, took the 86' 200X ATC, we usually do this with a bunch of guys several times a yrs.....if you were closer you stop by and ride.....I'm about 85 miles straight N. of Indy.....later in spring if you make it to the Bad Lands give me notice....maybe we can get DX Cody and some the Hoosier boys to meet up and ride.

[drillteamleader]

Went riding in the snow today with the ltr thats for sale and a kid with a ktm. Wow that ktm is awsome. The ltr is really nice but that ktm is sick. Now i'm thinking about the ktm again.

[DragonGunner]

ask the ktm guy if he has had any problems....how long he has had it....there a KTM section here too....ask those guys what they think of theres....

[drillteamleader]

I have narrowed my decision down to two quads. A very clean low hour 06 Ltr with new bead locks and gold speed tires with cherry bomb and houser stem. Or an 08 KTM 450xc stock with nerfs with only 40 to 50 hrs. My riding style would lean towards the KTM mainly for the reverse. Or the Ltr for the wide stance. The Ltr I can get for around $3200. The KTM I can get for $4000 maybe less. This has been a very hard decision. I will have the money next week so I'm going to go ride the Ltr and then the KTM and see what I can get for a price.

[chronicsmoke]

Those xc KTM's are really nice!!

I loved they power my buddy's SX 505 had, and I loved the way it handled.. the engine is just fragile if not maintained.

[deathman53]

the difference with ktm quads is between the xc and sx. The sx does handle better, but is the doomed motor that replaced most of the 4 strokes in 07-10. It had several issues, they can be worked out.

Now the XC, uses a modified version of the RFS motor, super reliable motor, ktm used it in most 4 strokes from 00-06. The problem with those quads are the electronics, way too much!!!!! I only would buy one, if I am able to put on the dirtbike wiring harness, but that is just me. It would also get the e-start removed and kicker off the dirtbike put on. For those who like twists on quads, because of the electronics, its a difficult install. There is a series of wires that goes between, carb, cdi and throttle and that controls the rpms. It also has a DC fired ignition, so battery goes bad, no pull start or no run.

[ish416]

I didn't realize they ran separate engines in the XC and SX. The guys I know all had the SX so that could explain the engine failures all of them have had.

[Thumpin440ex]

Honda in my eyes makes the best most reliable bike in any form for that matter.


John

[mineralgrey01gt]

I love my ltr450. I made the jump to it on a good deal i got from a friend of mine and never looked back. It has plenty enough power for what I need and its just a great handling quad. Now I see the concern with the width but if you can get it down to where you need with 4:1 wheels then id say go for it. I absolutely LOVE the FI. I had carbs all my life but the simple tuning with the FI is super easy as all you need to do is upload a map to the system and its done. Any major work requires a dyno but all mine has done is full exhaust, cherry bomb, and open air box and the power is great. I still run the stock size tires on hiper's and its good for me but i definitely do not ride in the woods that much.