Proper break in: clymer VS "Break in Secrets"

[cyprusriverrun]

Hey guys. I don't know if I've posted on here before, but I have used lots of the information from the forums for the build I'm doing. Hopefully the cylinder will be done tomorrow and I can put the engine back together soon. Keep in mind that this is the first engine I have really actually messed around with. My question is which style of break in to use. It seems the clymer and "Break in Secrets" are opposites.

Clymer

1) First 10 hours no more than 1/2 throttle and vary the speed

2) Next 5 hours no more than 3/4 throttle and vary the speed

3) Change oil, adjust valves, etc.



"Break in Secrets"

1) It basically says to open up the throttle and get on the throttle.

2) http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm



They both make sense in a way, so which way is better than the other

thanks

[on the rocks]

i broke mine wheeler in the hard way. gave her hell. that way it seats the rigs good and prevents the cylinder from glazing. what really helps seat the rings is to wined it out in say 3rd and then let off the gas and coast back down using the engines compression.

[CJM]

Unless you seal the rings its pointless.

I have always beat the quad breaking it in. Warm up, ride HARD for a solid day. Go home and change the oil and thats that.

[Resq]

MotoTune
:cool:

[400exmxracer]

I'm just about to finish my rebuild and have been debating the same thing on how to break it in. Running it really hard at first kind of sketches me out

[CJM]

Originally posted by 400exmxracer
I'm just about to finish my rebuild and have been debating the same thing on how to break it in. Running it really hard at first kind of sketches me out

Read the mototune article. You dont break it in hard the rings never seal right.

[400exmxracer]

I know what it says, I just kinda have a hard time believing it

[CJM]

Originally posted by 400exmxracer
I know what it says, I just kinda have a hard time believing it

Believe what ya want, but last 3 rebuilds I did on mine and a friends we rebuilt we did the mototune break in-no issues as all.

As for clymer-lets not forget they arent right oh about 75% of the time in their books. Ex: Use the torque specs they recommend and see what happens.

[400exmxracer]

I want to, cause then ill be able to ride it harder faster, but I'm just nervous

[cyprusriverrun]

That makes sense. Did you guys use a non syntetic oil for a while like he says or is that not as important.

[CJM]

Originally posted by cyprusriverrun
That makes sense. Did you guys use a non syntetic oil for a while like he says or is that not as important.

Not as important in my opinion. For everything I use rotella 15w-40. My 400ex and 450r have no issues using it, its in the lawn mower too. I used to use mobil 1 but at 6-8/qt its not worth it.

[Zeb400EX]

I totally agree with CJM. Once the motor warms up go ride the hell out of it!! I did it when my quad was new and when I did it on the rebuilt last year.

[bcleveland]

Originally posted by CJM
Not as important in my opinion. For everything I use rotella 15w-40. My 400ex and 450r have no issues using it, its in the lawn mower too. I used to use mobil 1 but at 6-8/qt its not worth it.
Never break in with a synthetic. In simple terms its too slick and will not help the rings seat. What your looking for is a conventional oil that is high in zinc for a break in. But then again I dont know if the high zinc oils will work with a wet clutch system. You might have to do some research and make a call or two.

[CJM]

Originally posted by bcleveland
Never break in with a synthetic. In simple terms its too slick and will not help the rings seat. What your looking for is a conventional oil that is high in zinc for a break in. But then again I dont know if the high zinc oils will work with a wet clutch system. You might have to do some research and make a call or two.

I honestly dont think it matters, I broke it in the time before last with mobil 1 with ZERO issues. This time I did rotella, still no issues.

[duneslider]

Seems silly to use synthetic for break in, cause you should change your oil after the first few hours.

If it starts and warms up without seizing all is good so ride it how you normally would.

Do you think the pros do 10 hrs break in between motos? Nope, their mechanic starts it warms it up then they race it. (although, probably not as many between MOTO topend jobs with fourstrokes, with two strokes it was common)

[JOHNDOE83]

Break in is a strange scenario either way you do it, why and how to do it is even stranger from person to person.

I always run it at varying speeds from easy to brief wot runs for half or a full tank of gas before I really pound the throttle for extended periods of time, just to be sure everything is working properly and not making noise.

In all actuallity, it should take no longer then 5-10 mins at idle to properly break in a new set of rings. Once they smooth over slightly they are set, with the speed of the rpms even at idle with good oil, the metal will smooth over and be ready to ride fairly quick.

I think about alcohol powered funny cars at the drag strip, there's no break in period for those motor's. Once it starts up and pulls slowly to the line for the first time is all the break in it get's. Then its WOT with NOS and all sorts of stuff going on.

If long extended break in's were that important, a motor like in the funny car would explode instantly at launch.

Just my opinion, take it or leave it. :blah:

[Thumpin440ex]

Everything I have ever built has been heat cycled for about 20 mins, then beat the hell out of it. Seen other builds where they baby it, it takes forever to seat the rings, oddly enough the engines do not seem to have the pep that the other ones have.

ROTELLA dino is what I run in everything. GOOD CHIT

John

[quad2xtreme]

could care less about the method used but how do you justify a WOT break in based on the drag racing industry that has no longevity or concern for longevity?

Is what is best for seating rings also ideal for bearings?

[Longdong]

Originally posted by JOHNDOE83
Break in is a strange scenario either way you do it, why and how to do it is even stranger from person to person.

I always run it at varying speeds from easy to brief wot runs for half or a full tank of gas before I really pound the throttle for extended periods of time, just to be sure everything is working properly and not making noise.

In all actuallity, it should take no longer then 5-10 mins at idle to properly break in a new set of rings. Once they smooth over slightly they are set, with the speed of the rpms even at idle with good oil, the metal will smooth over and be ready to ride fairly quick.

I think about alcohol powered funny cars at the drag strip, there's no break in period for those motor's. Once it starts up and pulls slowly to the line for the first time is all the break in it get's. Then its WOT with NOS and all sorts of stuff going on.

If long extended break in's were that important, a motor like in the funny car would explode instantly at launch.

Just my opinion, take it or leave it. :blah:

Don't they change pistons every round?

[Longdong]

This is the method I use.

Idle for 30secs (2 times)
Idle for 2minute (2 times)
Low to mid rpms for 5min (2 times)
Ride for 10 minutes low to 3/4
Always let the motor cool down stone cold between each time. But there is more than one way to skin a cat!

[duneslider]

Originally posted by quad2xtreme


Is what is best for seating rings also ideal for bearings?

What bearings are you talking about here? The only ones in question are the needle bearings and whether they go bad or not has nothing to do with break in.

If you are too soft on the motor the rings will glaze over and not create as good of a seal. I am not certain you can be too hard on them, I am yet to see evidence to prove that. The only thing I have seen is beating a cold motor causing a cold seize, and I haven't seen that happen too much.

I have always just started it up the first time and let the engine warm up. Then I shut it off and head out to the riding spot and fire it up, let it warm up, then ride it like normal.

If something were wrong it would happen the first time it ran. You either did it right, or you didn't.

[Thumpin440ex]

AJAX, kerosene in the cylinder will help re seat the rings. No BS.


John

[CJM]

^ ajax is a little harsh in small engines like this. Dont do that.

I have cleaned out carbon build up and reseated rings in car engines by pouring slowly (or better yet) using a small hairspray water bottle and misting it in the carb as the engine runs. It does work but ya gotta be careful.

Also can take some ATF and acetone, mix it 50/50. Then pour about 1 oz into the spark plug hole and turn the engine over by hand or slowly with the e-start. Let sit overnight, then fire up in the morning. Gonna smoke like nuts but it works.

Or seafoam does the same thing too.

Could also use bars Rislone too.

[JOHNDOE83]

Originally posted by quad2xtreme
could care less about the method used but how do you justify a WOT break in based on the drag racing industry that has no longevity or concern for longevity?


I didnt use it to justify anything, I simply used it as a example.


Originally posted by Longdong
Don't they change pistons every round?

Sponsered race teams do during High class racing events, your average dude at the drag strip that built his own car doesnt.

[Thumpin440ex]

Originally posted by CJM
^ ajax is a little harsh in small engines like this. Dont do that.

I have cleaned out carbon build up and reseated rings in car engines by pouring slowly (or better yet) using a small hairspray water bottle and misting it in the carb as the engine runs. It does work but ya gotta be careful.

Also can take some ATF and acetone, mix it 50/50. Then pour about 1 oz into the spark plug hole and turn the engine over by hand or slowly with the e-start. Let sit overnight, then fire up in the morning. Gonna smoke like nuts but it works.

Or seafoam does the same thing too.

Could also use bars Rislone too.

I should have been a little more informative. Naturally you need to use common sense, not go hog wild with the ajax. About 90/10 mix



John

[Crosshairs]

my opinion( and the opinion of many ring manufacturers) is that Motoman is a quack......his break in method is a sure fire way to micro weld your rings....and that means replacing them and starting all over.
Follow the recommendation of whoever made the parts your using.....they know best what works with their parts

[CJM]

^ If that ws the case mine, my friends and many other people I know woulda had blown up engines in everything from quads to bikes to cars. So far that isnt the case.

If its going to blow, its going to blow very shortly after you have it running.

[Thumpin440ex]

Originally posted by CJM
^ If that ws the case mine, my friends and many other people I know woulda had blown up engines in everything from quads to bikes to cars. So far that isnt the case.

If its going to blow, its going to blow very shortly after you have it running.


Have to agree..


I have had cam shafts in some of the boat engines we have done that require 4500 rpms for 20 mins at a time. Look at all the FRESH engines that get slapped on dyno's. Run it warm it op to operating temp, drive it like it's going to be driven. A fresh engine is tight. No harm no foul. Most of the time a engine pukes is a builders error, lubing issue, not a part that fails.


John

[Crosshairs]

Originally posted by CJM
^ If that ws the case mine, my friends and many other people I know woulda had blown up engines in everything from quads to bikes to cars. So far that isnt the case.

If its going to blow, its going to blow very shortly after you have it running.
Micro welding will not "blow up your engine" , so you and your friends could all be driving around and not even know it occurred...because no one is going to put a magnifying glass to the rings and look for specs of aluminum from a hot break in.


Your free to continue doing whatever works for you, but its certainly not the recommended break in procedure from any of the ring manufacturers.

[Thumpin440ex]

Originally posted by Crosshairs
Micro welding will not "blow up your engine" , so you and your friends could all be driving around and not even know it occurred...because no one is going to put a magnifying glass to the rings and look for specs of aluminum from a hot break in.


Your free to continue doing whatever works for you, but its certainly not the recommended break in procedure from any of the ring manufacturers.


This micro welding you speak of is not due to running a fresh engine hard. It CAN happen when you do it with out letting it heat cycle or come to its operating temperature first. Alot can cause this, in almost all cases it is the top ring that this happens to, more common on cast rings. It can be from improper lubrication, to improper ring gap, timing, fuel mixture ect. PERIOD not to mention this was only a bigger concern many many years ago, due to the simple fact that rings were made from less then great material ect. Mite want to do a little home work. ;)


John

[cyprusriverrun]

I went ahead and broke it in this sunday and yesterday. I put some non synthetic oil in it and let it warm up then let it rip lol. After about 10 or 12 hours it's running good. There is no smoking and non of the gaskets are leaking or anything bad like that. I will probably change oil within the next couple hours. The bad thing is my swingarm cracked so I can't really ride it till it gets fixed.

[Crosshairs]

Originally posted by Thumpin440ex
Mite want to do a little home work. ;)


John

:rolleyes:

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, I made that perfectly clear..but I dont need to do any homework...I have built thousands of engines over the last 35 or so years....everything from Caterpillar and Detroit diesels, to Ford and Chrysler gas engines , and yes, even the toy engines in our little Honda's .... I know the recommended procedures , and was simply pointing out that this "Motoman method" is not one of them.

There is not a single OEM engine or ring manufacturer that will endorse his method. ..none, nada, zero, zilch....

[Thumpin440ex]

Fair enough, I am not familar with this motoman people speak of, but have always done the same on set ups. I was just agreeing with CJM on the run them hard part. Start, heat up to op temp, go about your business. I do not think there is going to be a win or loss in this thread as every one does it different. It should be safe to ask can we all agree to disagree, lol. But the micro welding thing is something that can be caused from many other variables then beating on a fresh build. Sorry if I came off as a *** with the home work part, but there is soo much wrong info here from people who have never built anything, just hear say.


John

[xtreme762]

In 25yrs of building engines. I've NEVER broke an engine in according to manufacturer specifications. Break-in is a very questionable action, and everyone's opinion on it is going to be different. Most of the problem, I think, is that most folks think you should break-in ALL engines the same way, and that just isn't true.

I think of it the same way I think of breaking in a new barrel on a rifle. Which is nearly the same concept. It's a myth! Most manufacturers put out a break-in procedure, with only returning customers in mind. It's a marketing scam....

Break it in how you like, but the method CJM, motoman, and Thumpin440ex refer too, IMO, is the best method!

Too each his own, C'est la vie!

[Resq]

Yep, over 300 miles. Didnt wipe the sides with anything. Looks just like the day I put it in.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii258/Resqu/400%20rebuild/300milesA.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii258/Resqu/400%20rebuild/300miles.jpg

Had to take the ride of shame back to the trailer... pulled a head stud.

Tore it down this evening.

[duneslider]

the ride of shame is always rough. Piston looks great though. Been there several times when I had my banshee.

Manufacturers will always recommend a CYA policy.

You can micro weld the rings in a slow break in process. Every IC engine can get hot enough to weld the rings. Frankly, I have never heard of an atv micro welding the rings. I have only heard of this in high-HP engines. Think, NASCAR, drag racers, etc.

Best way to prevent micro welding from what I have studied is don't get the engine too hot and keep it well lubricated. I always give my pistons and rings and cylinder a good oil bath right before assembly. This keeps the heat and friction down thus preventing issues.

Basically, I have my doubts you could micro weld the rings on a 400ex.