More Production quads next year????

[edwardsp&b]

Ive been hearing rumors that they are considering JB mods and others to be allowed in production classes next year. Anybody else hearing this???
Bryan

[bigdaddy77]

I haven't heard anything but I don't see how they can do it except for the 2013 models. They have to have documentation on how many they sell with a certain motor combination and so on. If they do good for them but it will open a huge can of worms when people start trying to wheel older models to the line.
Going to kill us trying to run that class with the ole air cooled four stroke!

[LT80]

You heard correct.
Next thing you know it'll be "run what you brung". LOL

Stan, if you weren't having to wrench on those cobras so much you would have heard..:D :D :D j/k

[nastynotchback1]

Cant wait to see how this goes over.If you got a 125 4-stroke you might as well stay home.

[bigdaddy77]

Your right about that Nasty! Now the big push to get the cc limit raised to 150 for the air cooled 4 strokes.
I just don't see the j.b mods being legal. I did hear jb and another company were build 300 class quads to compete with the Apex 250. But I don't see them being able to run the jb mod in production 90. Hell what abou the Fischer mod and all the other ones . Might as well throw them in too.

[Hetrick Racing]

At this point JB Racing has not intent of trying to get the 90 mod or 150 mod production legal.
I know this for a fact from JB himself.
Although it is no different than a Cobra was the discussion.With more being built and raced than Cobra.
He is developing a 250 with hopes of competing in the approved class.
Similar to the APEX 250

[rookiewrench]

How many are going to need to be built in order to be production legal? 5,25 or 100. I can't see JB building 25 or more , that would be a huge upfront cost. If the 250 motor in a JB is legal that would have a great chanc of winning the Schoolboy Sr. class also i would bet.

If they do become legal I would bet you can buy a good used 300ex with all the bells for about $2500. I feel bad for the people who may have recently bought a 300, there is no chance that they will compete with the apex or JB250's.

[edwardsp&b]

I wasnt trying to start any drama.....Just asking a question. You always hear a bunch of rumors, I was just wondering. I know that there is alot of JB's out there. I wish GNCC would accept the Jb to race in their series.
Bryan

[#404's Dad]

I heard they only need 5, if that is in deed the case it is in my opinion BS, Make a 250 Mod Class or something to accommodate these bikes.

Somebody needs to grab the wheel on this chit.

Apex 90 Shifter "Mods" in the Production 90 class was ridiculous enough, those bikes are not a production bike, they have Suzuki and Honda Dirtbike motors in an Apex CVT chassis, willing to bet there are more of the Apex 90 Shifters racing than Apex ever even sold.

Not sure how letting just about anything become a Production Machine is going to help this sport any??

[quadrider79]

Well said Corey.

[Logan #34's Dad]

From the AMA Rule book: How its "supposed" to be done.

Section 1.2 Motocross Equipment
Special Note: The American Motorcyclist Association doesn't inspect vehicles in AMA-sanctioned competition. Participants are solely responsible for the condition of their vehicles and their competence to operate them.
A. Approval of Motorcycles/Minicycles
1. 0-114cc Stock Class
a. To be approved for AMA-sanctioned competition,
minicycles (engines and frames) must be available
through retail distributors.
b. For a minicycle to be HOMOLOGATED, the manufacturer
must apply to the AMA, register the machine’s
specifications, provide photographs, OEM parts list
and provide that up to 100 identical machines of the
same year and model are available for sale to the
general public through a distributor network. Orders
determined to be legitimate by AMA Racing and
accompanied by a 50 percent deposit must be filled
within a reasonable amount of business days of
receipt by the manufacturer or distributor.
c. Homologated minicycles must be available for sale up
until the minimum of 100 units are sold. The
manufacturer may be required to provide proof of sale
to AMA Racing for confirmation.
d. Manufacturers and distributors must have a sufficient
quantity of spare parts to meet customer demand for
a minimum of the current model year being approved.
e. Superseded or redesigned parts must be submitted to
AMA Racing for review and approval before their use
in competition. These parts must be listed in the
current OEM parts list supplied to AMA Racing.
f. The AMA may require one unit of each approved
model and/or superseded or redesigned part(s) to be
provided for long-term parts comparison.
g. Only after the homologation paperwork has been
verified and approved by AMA Racing will the
minicycle be added to the approved for AMA
competition list.
h. Homologation will last until such time as the
motorcycle no longer conforms to the current stock
class rules.
i. Homologation is required each year for new models
even if that model hasn't changed from the previous
year homologation.
j. AMA Racing will provide a list of homologated
minicycles. This list may be updated at any time.
k. If at any time it is discovered that the manufacturer
hasn't met the requirements or falsified any information during the homologation process, the manufacturer may be fined up to $10,000 and may be placed on probation or suspension from AMA
competition for up to five years.
l. Minicycles will be approved at the sole discretion of
AMA Racing.
THE BIG ONE...
The following rules were approved for the 2013 AMA Racing
Rulebook.
Section 1.2; Paragraph A.1.B; page 10
Change to: * For a minicycle to be homologated, the
manufacturer must apply to the AMA, register the machine's
specifications, provide photographs, OEM parts list, provide 10
identical machines of the same year and model for AMA
Inspection and an additional 65 identical machines of the same
year and model are manufactured and available for sale to the
general public through a distributor network by April 15th of the
current model year.
ATVA Supplemental rules: NOTE THE VERY 1st LINE... We ARE bound by the AMA rule book....
C. EQUIPMENT

The AMA Equipment Standards List in the AMA Racing Rulebook, which governs amateur ATV competition, will be enforced. In addition, the following apply:

1. Maximum machine width is 50" in amateur classes.

2. Tether cords and nerf bars or suitable floorboards are required.

3. Control levers must have ball ends; axle nuts must have cotter pins or clips; glass components/lights must be covered; horns, bells or other sound devices are prohibited.

4. Sound: The maximum sound limit is set at 98dB/a for ATVs with a 2-Stroke engine and maximum 96dB/a for ATVs with a 4-Stroke engine.

5. Fuel: Only petroleum-based gasoline as defined by the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM), designation: D4814, may be used. All fuel must be stored in approved containers.

6. Machines may be bored or stroked in order to increase engine displacement, so long as the engine size is stamped on the case and the class limit is not exceeded, i.e., 400cc engine may be increased to a maximum of 450cc in the 450 class.

7. All machines are subject to random equipment inspections any time prior to, during or after the event. Displacement will be measured at the end of the meet.

8. The machine a rider competes on in the first moto/qualifier is the official machine of the rider for that event, and may not be switched during the event. Provided, however, that the engine may be changed during the event, so long as it is replaced with an engine of the same make, model and displacement.

[Logan #34's Dad]

^^^^^MY 2000th post^^^^^ :blah:

What I'm reading is: You must FIRST produce 10 machines for AMA "inspection" with the ability to produce the additional required amount.
What I cannot find is the rumored required amount to be at only 25 units.

[LT80]

Maybe you won't need 25....

[Hetrick Racing]

The way I understand it is this.
The reason bikes have to be approved is the fact that they run "stock" classes.
With that said the atv world does not even our 50 limited is legal to modify.
So the AMA/ATVA is kind of in a tight spot with the APEX,COBRA neither quad is really legal APEX because there is not enough available and Cobra because you cannot buy it assembled,but they both were previously approved.
OK, so here is the argument.
If these two manufactures can continue to sell at the standard they are,how come new companies have to meet a different standard. Even when the companies started they did not meet criteria to be homolgated,but because we need quads and companies they were approved.

The fact that someone owns this quad or that quad means nothing .
The world evolves.
Do ya think Sepesi or Mack arent going to be competitors for the win on whatever they ride?

We all want the sport to move forward well this is the future .When the manufactures dont give a ratts ***** about the atv world even though they out sell bikes every year.What should we do.
The same thing was in control before, aftermarket companies.They have to step up to keep our sport alive.
Do you all want to give money to the people who have proved they dont care about us?
Or feed the people that are trying to keep us racing.

Everyone has an opinion so we all need to agree we disagree,but I know we all want this sport to live.Thats the bottom line!!!
So lets see what happens before we ruin it completely.

[T@AFP]

A few arguements I have to make it a "production model" is this:
The powerplant should be made specific for that model machine. Meaning... The engine should be made for a particular company with their own name on it. Like the Kawasaki/artic cat deal. or the LTZ400/Artic cat 400. Their names were on the engines. Artic Cat ponied up big dollars to make their 400 cc machine legal.

I don't think we should be allowed to take a "custom made frame" and install a recognized known engine manufacturer and put it in the frame and call it "production". The frame builder, should have their own "specific" engine made for that machine.

Even putting a SUZUKI RM85 engine in a Apex should not be a "production" model. Or the Apex 250 with a YAMAHA engine.

I really don't think you'd see the big 4 putting the compeditors engines in their ATV's w/their names on them.....

If you want to step up to the plate and have the engines made specific, then by all means it should be "production".


I also, think that since you cannot buy a Cobra, fully assembled. It should not be a "production model". It is a "kit".

Apex,DRR,Honda,Yamaha,Suzi,KTM etc......all have their own powerplants. Even though there are similarities. It's their own.



Maybe we just need to give up a "production' rule. It maybe simpler......

[Logan #34's Dad]

The problem with "allowing" these aftermarket companies to skirt around the black and white written rules and produce "production" machines is COST.
Correct me if I'm wrong but, wasn't the main reason the AMA-ATVA went back to a production rule years ago because the hybrids were just too expensive, too fast, too advanced for a true factory machine to be competitive? Noone would consider buying a Honda 450 because they knew they could not keep up with the lighter "run what-cha brung" EXPENSIVE hybrids.
So I guess we are like the fashion world, everything comes back around.
95% of families cannot afford to come up with the initial cost of a completely built NEW "production" hybrid. And when they ATVAPG starts allowing people like Apex or Cobra to skirt the rule other companies will want the same considerations. Then before we know it, we need $15,000 just to purchase a machine if your rider and you even want to sniff the lead pack.
Now, I know someone is thinking "we end up with that much in a race quad anyhow". Very true but the difference is, people like me (95%) can afford to add go fast pieces n parts to a lower cost production machine as my budget allows and work our way to the front.
We will lose the masses if people show up with a built 300 Honda or Yamaha or a TRX90/125 that they took all winter to build only to get crushed by a "production" $15,000 initial cost hybrid. It then becomes a rich kid/family sport even more-so than it is now. Is that really putting the BEST talent out there?

[Logan #34's Dad]

Well said T@AFP.
I say let the aftermarket companies be what they are: for the aftermarket.
And I understand that they keep the Atv market running however, if we stop buying sport quads all together from the big manufacturers then where do we think the sport will go?
As far as Cobra, at least they use all Cobra stuff. They sell this way to skirt the government standards. BUT as you state, the other companies have to go by rules so why shouldn't Cobra. I bet they do on the 2 wheelers......

[LT80]

"Correct me if I'm wrong but, wasn't the main reason the AMA-ATVA went back to a production rule years ago because the hybrids were just too expensive, too fast, too advanced for a true factory machine to be competitive?"
Production rules: It was to support the factorys in their decision (and our wishes) to make race worthy machines.
Cost was a brief excuse but it took about 3 seconds to learn that it was just as much $.

"It then becomes a rich kid/family sport even more-so than it is now."
More so? Can it be more so? I don't think so.
Any working man will have a difficult time having a winning rider at the national level.


"BUT as you state, the other companies have to go by rules "
As you are seeing, rules are recommendations at best and can change with the wind.

"Promotor discretion", "better for the sport", fancy wording for "we'll do what we want". It's self preservation for them.

It's a matter of someone getting a big idea on how things should be. At least in their eyes.
Remember 71cc's?? A big idea. I could go on and on.

IMO, I don't see what the problem is. ALL of you have more money to spend than the devil has flames.
Suck it up, buy it all, and race. :D

[Hetrick Racing]

Tom ,
I agree the production rule should be eliminated.
With my own ears I sat in the meeting when the production Pro class(the first one) was made.
The reason was so the factory's would get involved.The WPSA was coming with television that was the answer.

Think about it you especially Tom, we need to go back to the hybrid,like it was before.If the world of the factory riders has diminished why do we keep building them.
What we are talking about is the entire sport not just the mini world.

All we are doing is giving them our money why not give it to the people that support us.
Rock I have been doing this since the 80's
you are wrong, no offense but you are wrong they dont care,not one bit.Racing is such a small part of atv sales they could care less.I have seen this now twice,(89 and 010 through 012) Hybrids will keep our sport alive~!!!
Until we get on TV again, like the bikes, they will not have any concern with us.
WPSA is what made them jump in with both feet , ESPN 2 sealed the deal.
When that comes back so will factory support.

Jack
you are correct that is what brought the idea to the table but money and power made the decision ,,Imagine that!!

[bigdaddy77]

I agree with the no support from the factory! It's can even be sad at the dealer level when you tell them your son races quads.
Has there ever been any thought of a FourStroke class like the 450's have?
Rocky do you know what the ratio of 4 strokes to 2 strokes was in the production class last year. I think you could get quite a few quads at the line. You can pick up a good trx for chump change these days. Also it would give the Yamahas something to run in. What's everyone's opinion on this?

[Logan #34's Dad]

I'd say there were 3 or 4 TRX's in the 90 production class. The Honda was competitive but when it was all said and done, the Cobra's with the overpriced motors and the Apex mods were faster. If the Apex frame was not such a piece of junk it would have won far more races. Now the frames are being custom built with better American metal and they will hold together.
I brought this 4stroke class up in another thread but I just don't know if we need to add more classes to a watered down field already.
I like the idea of us catering to the big manufactures like Yamaha (125) the Pitster 125. Those are quads people can afford...
I believe the 250 class in the Worcs series is doing just fine out west.. They adjusted the class to accept a quad they everyone can afford. Since Honda has discontinued the 300 this may be something to think about.

[bigdaddy77]

I understand about not wanting more classes. We are just getting started and have quite a few years left in the minis.
I would bet a FourStroke class would do well. The quads are out there people just aren't racing them because its like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Plus I think people with 125 raptors would give it a try. There is a whole butt load of them in GNCC. And how many four bangers did you see at those races before the Pitster and Yami?

[Ryko racing]

I understand both arguments. And Mr Hetrick has a valid point. But what about the guys that spent big bucks on there 450s. Now they can drop another 30 grand in a hybrid or go home?

As far as Cobra goes, they actually used the rule of 100 to be production legal. I know they almost went broke trying to get it done. And like it or not he built his own motors. If he would have used re named honda motors he would have sold a ton of them for $ 8000.

This is crazy, the SCHOOLBOY classes were some of the best and closest competiton in the whole series. They were a great stepping stone class. ( why did they need to change it).

I agree that the OEMS dont help us but i also believe that its a direct correlation to the relationship between them and our promoters.

So now if someone builds 5 450 hybrids its legal in our 450 amatuer classes? If thats the case we are done and so will about 40 percent of the amatuer racers be out too. ( its economics)

True production rules protect the masses. I for one wish my son would quit. I love racing but this is getting absurd.....eSPECIALLY IN A SPORT WITH NO REWARD AT THE END. THE ONLY WAY A GOOD RIDER WILL EVER BE ABLE TO MAKE ALIVING RACING QUADS IS IF THE BIG 3 SUPPORT OUR SPORT. PERIOD.....THE AFTERMARKET GURUS DONT HAVE THE MONEY TO PAY THE RIDERS LIKE THE FACTORIES .

Like Corey said someone better get a hold of this and make the right decision because this is stupid. I AM SORRY AS I DONT MEAN TO OFFEND ANYBODY BUT SOMEBODY NEEDS TO GRAB THIS BY THE HORNS OR NOBODY WILL BE RACING QUADS IN 3 YEARS.

i told Ryan we would buy him 3 NEW MX BIKES IF HE QUIT QUADS... iT WOULD COST LESS THAN A New race quad...

[Logan #34's Dad]

Thats what I'm getting at. When the amapg allows one company to "work in the grey area" then it is not long before more companies want the same considerations. Example: Apex was allowed to introduce a Lonestar chassis with a 250 yamaha dirt bike motor on it and there is NO way they ever had even 25 of those built at the time of "approval". But I'll bet the owner of Apex's kids had one to crush the competition with. Then the same guy thinks...they let me do it before so why not throw a dirtbike motor on a cvt style chassis for a production quad.
So, now comes another company that says "you did it for them".
Once you compromise the standards there is no standard.

[Ryko racing]

ONE QUESTION? WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THE PRODUCTION RULES? THE CLASSES SEEMED TO BE PRETTY FULL UNDER THE OLD SYSTEM. ( OR WAS IT THE PROMOTERS JUST SICK OF LISTENING TO THE PARENTS COMPLAIN?) iN MY OPINION GO BACK TO THE 2010 RULES. PRODUCTION IS PRODUCTION AND MOD IS MOD. i AM DONE WITH THIS POST. IT IS A DEAD HORSE. LOL.....

[Logan #34's Dad]

Production rules remain in place with the exception of lowering the amount of machines needed for consumer purchase through distributors. From 100 to 25 (ATV world) and only requiring 10 for inspection.

[T@AFP]

Originally posted by Logan #34's Dad
Production rules remain in place with the exception of lowering the amount of machines needed for consumer purchase through distributors. From 100 to 25 (ATV world) and only requiring 10 for inspection.



Rocky, Where did you get that information?

[Logan #34's Dad]

Ama rule book from the website. I copied n pasted it earlier in this thread. But as I said, I've still not found the (25) part.

[Hetrick Racing]

OK ITS EASY PRODUCTION IS NOT GOING ANYWHERE !!!
EVOLUTION MOVES FORWARD!

Im done discussing it !
LEAD FOLLOW OR GET OUT OF THE WAY !!

Its coming deal with it

[mudatv]

Originally posted by Hetrick Racing
OK ITS EASY PRODUCTION IS NOT GOING ANYWHERE !!!
EVOLUTION MOVES FORWARD!

Im done discussing it !
LEAD FOLLOW OR GET OUT OF THE WAY !!

Its coming deal with it

^^^^^^ARE WE GETTIN A LIL TESTY^^^^^^

[LT80]

Mudman,
Please understand that Mr. Hetrick has only the best intentions. He has worked very hard for the sport. Harder than enyone can know. He is frustrated and personally I don't blame him.
These rule changes are happening to save the sport of ATV racing.

[Ryko racing]

I understand what Mr Hetrick is saying about who supports us. But , if we as a group dont get the big oems back into the sport it wont matter . I dont personally know of any Aftermarket company that has the financial means to finacially support and GROW OUR SPORT alone. I just feel that this rule of 10 is a band aid. (lets be honest a few people will buy the Hybrids for their kids.) But, we will NEVER get on TV without the BIG OEMS it is just economics.( its funny i live in Detroit and have one of the largest cable companies and cant get our series on my cable network)

I for one think our aftermarket companies are great and have always helped all of us. But they cant do it alone.

I also understand that currently a top pro cannot make a living racing atvs currently. That is sad but the bike side is also suffering.

Its just my opinion and i do respect Mr Hetricks opinion as he has been a great ambassador for our sport and has given a lot back to it. I just think that without the BIG OEMS we are facing a tough battle and making us build exotics wont increase rider count. ( actually it will decrease rider count.) nor will it help get the OEMS back. Lets hope this works as we all have our life savings invested in this sport that we love.

This is not meant to offend anyone, maybe we can all get together this year as a group as there is strength in numbers. Lets not let what we all helped grow over the years die out.

[mxdad423]

Ok, look, this is rediculous. I know for a fact to build one of the new JB 250's you are going to have 30,000.00 Plus in building it, BELIEVE ME, I can tell you that for a fact. 98% of us can not afford to do that, that includes myself. The Schoolboy Jr class has been one of the most competitive classes at the Nats for years and always has great numbers, so I ask, WHY would you mess with it? There are a h*ll of alot of 300ex's out there with tons of money in them that are intending on racing this year, by doing this it is going to put alot of people, including my son in a bad spot. I can tell you, if they make this change we will not be at the Nationals, it just wont be worth it, and i sure as h*ll am not going to build a 30,000.00 250 for my son to race 1 year, thats just stupid. I work for a living, I am not independently wealthy like SOME, it's a DAMN shame that so many kids are going to miss out because of a FEW big hitters with unlimited amounts of money can sway rules their way. I'm sorry, but we all know that is how this sport works and is exactly why it is in the trouble it is in. If the big hitters want to do dumb sh*t like this then give them their own class and leave the other classes alone, I garauntee you there will be way more on the line in the poor guys classes then there will be in the big hitter class, and thats my opinion. I will go spend my money at the NEATV and the MDRA, I'm sure they will be glad to have the thousands I send giving the ATVA. Sorry I had to vent......

[Ryko racing]

Well said. But , unfortunately I believe its already done.

I dont know why the change either. I keep hearing about the cost of 300 's...

My son did well this year and due to $$$$ my 300 was not rebuilt over the winter.

It was "really tired" and still very competitive at Nats. ( i wish i wouldve had the cash to have it fresh for last season as it broke my sons heart.(we will never race a national again if we cant afford the top equipment). That being said I feel that the 300 ex is very reliable and a value to race.

Just my opinion. Nothing personal but my checkbook wont support this absurdity.( A very wise and very wealthy man once told me that the reason he was wealthy was because he did not make poor financial decisions based on EMOTION.)
i JUST DONT SEE HOW THE AVERAGE WORKING MAN CAN DO THIS ANYMORE.

[trompen542]

As an aftermarket builder, for kids quads, I think the 250's that are being talked about, should be considered a mod class. for a number of reasons that have already been stated. The 70 mod, 90 mod, and supermini classes are for the kids, that are to advanced for the normal production quads that are currently being built. We need to keep them seperated, so that kids, that are just starting, or the parents that work for a living, can still have an avenue to race. We started building a 250 based racer, similar to the apex in 2005, and they are far superior to the production quads available, and can compete against most of the 450's available, so it isn't fair to the families that can't afford to pay 12-15000.00 for a hobby. I say keep them seperated, and keep the racing afordable to the masses, and let the sport grow.

[Logan #34's Dad]

I totally agree with what you are saying. You builders should approach the ATVA promoters group about a 250 mod class.
Im a father that will never put my kid on a heavy Honda 300. I know I don't have the cash flow to get on a new 250 mod either but as these machines become used and come on the market as used....more ppl will get in the class.
HOWEVER, a CanAm with a 250 on it would be awesome!
My thoughts on class structure: 250 watercooled, 300 air-cooled(opportunity for kids to run an additional class on their 300's) LETS RACE!

[JAG Motosports]

Originally posted by trompen542
As an aftermarket builder, for kids quads, I think the 250's that are being talked about, should be considered a mod class. for a number of reasons that have already been stated. The 70 mod, 90 mod, and supermini classes are for the kids, that are to advanced for the normal production quads that are currently being built. We need to keep them seperated, so that kids, that are just starting, or the parents that work for a living, can still have an avenue to race. We started building a 250 based racer, similar to the apex in 2005, and they are far superior to the production quads available, and can compete against most of the 450's available, so it isn't fair to the families that can't afford to pay 12-15000.00 for a hobby. I say keep them seperated, and keep the racing afordable to the masses, and let the sport grow.

Been syain that for 2 yrs. We woulda raced some nats last year had there been a class. If ya cant beat em join em .... next year is dirt bikes :D

[trompen542]

Originally posted by Logan #34's Dad
I totally agree with what you are saying. You builders should approach the ATVA promoters group about a 250 mod class.
Im a father that will never put my kid on a heavy Honda 300. I know I don't have the cash flow to get on a new 250 mod either but as these machines become used and come on the market as used....more ppl will get in the class.
HOWEVER, a CanAm with a 250 on it would be awesome!
My thoughts on class structure: 250 watercooled, 300 air-cooled(opportunity for kids to run an additional class on their 300's) LETS RACE!
We also put a highly modded blaster motor in one of our frames, for Jim Jaworski's (the owner of motowoz's) son, and that thing was so fast, his district changed the rules to not allow it the next year. So if we could include these too, there are tons of blasters laying around, looking for a good home.

[Ryko racing]

I agree. Hey Rock, the trx 300 is actually a great bike if set up correctly. Ryan said his 300 was way easier and smoother than his$ 20000 j b supermini. ( i keep hearing all this HEAVY stuff but i have seen full gates and equal competiton for 4 yrs in that class.

I have seen a lot of fast kids ride them and really only 1 bad injury and it was not due to the quad.

Do we really NEED another class? We cant even get a dozen riders in any of our classes. i THINK WE NEED MORE RIDERS AND LESS CLASSES. I WOULD RATHER PAY MORE PER CLASS TO RACE WITH A FULL CLASS. iN 2007 2008 WE HAD GOOD COMPETITION AND EVERY KID HAD 2 CLASSES THAT THEY COULD RACE WITH 1 QUAD IF THEY WANTED SEAT TIME. ( IT DOESNT ALWAYS MEAN THAT THEY COULD NECESSARILY WIN THE SECOND CLASS WITH THE SAME QUAD BUT THERE WAS AN OPPRTUNITY.)
We cant all have a class that we can win . Its a national championship and it should be difficult.

I hope they listen but i doubt it. Good thing we r done with youth racing.

[Ryko racing]

I agree. Hey Rock, the trx 300 is actually a great bike if set up correctly. Ryan said his 300 was way easier and smoother than his$ 20000 j b supermini. ( i keep hearing all this HEAVY stuff but i have seen full gates and equal competiton for 4 yrs in that class.

I have seen a lot of fast kids ride them and really only 1 bad injury and it was not due to the quad.

Do we really NEED another class? We cant even get a dozen riders in any of our classes. i THINK WE NEED MORE RIDERS AND LESS CLASSES. I WOULD RATHER PAY MORE PER CLASS TO RACE WITH A FULL CLASS. iN 2007 2008 WE HAD GOOD COMPETITION AND EVERY KID HAD 2 CLASSES THAT THEY COULD RACE WITH 1 QUAD IF THEY WANTED SEAT TIME. ( IT DOESNT ALWAYS MEAN THAT THEY COULD NECESSARILY WIN THE SECOND CLASS WITH THE SAME QUAD BUT THERE WAS AN OPPRTUNITY.)
We cant all have a class that we can win . Its a national championship and it should be difficult.

I hope they listen but i doubt it. Good thing we r done with youth racing.

[Hetrick Racing]

ok everyone has complained enough that they probably will not allow the JB but the APEX IS LEGAL AND WILL BE RACED \\\\
LOL
shut down a quality quad and get beat by a quad that nobody can get
Good job guys

[Logan #34's Dad]

Originally posted by Hetrick Racing
ok everyone has complained enough that they probably will not allow the JB but the APEX IS LEGAL AND WILL BE RACED \\\\
LOL
shut down a quality quad and get beat by a quad that nobody can get
Good job guys

And everyone knows the APEX 250 AND 90 shifter should not be production legal. I guess Greg at Apex knows ALL the right people. Everyone knows that APEX never even came close to producing enough of either machine to be production legal BUT the AMA/ATVA allowed it. Apex built the 250 so his own kids could crush the field out there and did so....never concerned about making enough for everyone.
Just like we all complained about this Apex 90 shifter...ATVA ignored us. Its all about who ya know or who is promoting your machine. IMO

[quadrider79]

I will never understand how an Apex with a CR85 or RM85 is Production legal. Guaranteed there is way more Cobras out there with those two engines in them, And there not production legal. Go figure.

[desratt]

It could be like worcs where we can't race our cobra against anyone but other cobra's. 1 class a weekend. Sometimes were the only one and sometimes 5 of us.

[FISH ON!]

It may be a little off topic but a buddy and I have done a lot of research on the Apex 250 and we have talked to a handful of folks that recently bought one. The feedback was very positive. The quad is hands down the best quad for a youth rider to transition to a 450 on. As far as price, well I'm sure those that run the nats have spent that much on a cvt and the Apex is 10k cheaper than the JB.

Yes, Apex went through some issues the past year or so with the cvt importing snafu but I know for a fact that you can order the 250 and get one within a few weeks...........while supplies last. There is no small operation that is going to be able to build a bunch of anything and put it on the shelf in todays economy. The large companies aren't even doing that.

just stating my experience the past few weeks of researchig quads........not trying to jump in this dog fight. Its a perfect quad to get your kid ready for a 450.

[Logan #34's Dad]

As far as costs:
I realise that we end up with a small fortune in our cvt's BUT most of us were able to build them up over time to make it affordable.
Unlike these hybrid, OH I MEAN PRODUCTION, machines that cost 10K plus - the average fella cannot afford that lump purchase - And all for a wooded plaque....

[trompen542]

you can buy alot of the mods, from last year, for around 6500, because of the economey, and sell the motors, and get a replacement 250 motor, and have them swapped, for not that much more. I don't know what the other guys are charging to do the swap, but we charge around 800.00, so it isn't 30k to build one of these as a mod.

[rmuscle]

Originally posted by mxdad423
Ok, look, this is rediculous. I know for a fact to build one of the new JB 250's you are going to have 30,000.00 Plus in building it, BELIEVE ME, I can tell you that for a fact. 98% of us can not afford to do that, that includes myself. The Schoolboy Jr class has been one of the most competitive classes at the Nats for years and always has great numbers, so I ask, WHY would you mess with it? There are a h*ll of alot of 300ex's out there with tons of money in them that are intending on racing this year, by doing this it is going to put alot of people, including my son in a bad spot. I can tell you, if they make this change we will not be at the Nationals, it just wont be worth it, and i sure as h*ll am not going to build a 30,000.00 250 for my son to race 1 year, thats just stupid. I work for a living, I am not independently wealthy like SOME, it's a DAMN shame that so many kids are going to miss out because of a FEW big hitters with unlimited amounts of money can sway rules their way. I'm sorry, but we all know that is how this sport works and is exactly why it is in the trouble it is in. If the big hitters want to do dumb sh*t like this then give them their own class and leave the other classes alone, I garauntee you there will be way more on the line in the poor guys classes then there will be in the big hitter class, and thats my opinion. I will go spend my money at the NEATV and the MDRA, I'm sure they will be glad to have the thousands I send giving the ATVA. Sorry I had to vent...... just to fill you in neatv just changed there rule and the only youth 200-300 class is now called the youth open class. You can run anything as long as its not over 300

[LT80]

"just to fill you in neatv just changed there rule and the only youth 200-300 class is now called the youth open class. You can run anything as long as its not over 300"

Hmmmmm. So a new class can be made?! Interesting..
I wonder if the promotors group will do similiar. ;) :eek2: :devil:

[T@AFP]

Originally posted by LT80
"just to fill you in neatv just changed there rule and the only youth 200-300 class is now called the youth open class. You can run anything as long as its not over 300"

Hmmmmm. So a new class can be made?! Interesting..
I wonder if the promotors group will do similiar. ;) :eek2: :devil:

I heard they did or going too. Instead of the "production" class.

[cobra44]

I sat in the meeting sunday morning. The idea of adding a 250 mod class was discussed but keeping the 300 production but making that class air cooled only. This would allow the 300's to stay competive with out interfernce from the faster 250's. Ms.Combs was in agreement for the above as long as we kept the engines of the 250's at 250cc. she didn't want even more added expenses added to parents. This would also allow you to put a 250 into a 450,jb,roberts,and walsh frame. Thus a mod class and not a production class. Allowing parents to have options and control their costs. She said they would post all rule changes and class addtions by dec. 3rd.

[FISH ON!]

I followed the logic except for keeping the 250 at 250cc for cost. A big bore cylinder can be bought new for less than $500. Granted, that isn't cheap but that isn't the most costly part of running a mod quad. Its all those other things you do to the motor and chasis that run the cost up like extensive head work, stroker, etc.... just saying.

[Logan #34's Dad]

I like the idea. Even keeping the cc level at 250. Makes sense on cost too. Keeps the field more equal and engine performance more equal - just pick your engine poison.
Cracks me up that we'd want to "bigbore" our stuff....ya think the dirtbike teams whine like us OR just satisfied with what they do...? Then we wonder why our sport has issues.

I think the eventual goal will be to faze out the 300's and 400's in favor of this 250 class. Which means less daily motos - 3 classes (schoolboy jr n sr and aircooled 300 class) - get narrowed down to one. Then a riders progression will be 90 mod, supermini, 250, 450...... sounds good to me.
Eventually the 250 class will be a meat grinder with full gates.
I hear they lowered the age to be on a 450cc to 15 too.

[cobra44]

Rocky, I also liked the idea of the 250 cc limit it will allow the better rider to rise to the top with out engine builders getting involved. It also keeps the reliablity of the motor, less failures more on the track racing.

Yes they did propose the age of a 450 rider to that of age 15. They also proposed age 17 for pro ama riders. They will also change the older girls class to a mod class instead of production.

[mxdad423]

Keeping the 300 class, age 15 for the 450 class, NOW THEIR USING THEIR HEADS, good to see somebody is making some right choices for once. GREAT job to whoever put it togeater.

[Hetrick Racing]

Remember these are all proposals
I would wait before I ran out and bought a new quad.
BTW
the 15 year old on a 450 is NOT a good idea
In my opinion there are maybe a handful of kids that could race a 450 safely at 15
everyone can ride one but racing one is entirely different

[Ryko racing]

Maybe a stock 450 c class for 15 yrs olds ? just an idea. But at least they are trying.

[camsdad]

A stock 450 class for 140-150 pound rider would be a disaster ...maybe a 14-17 yr old 450 class...I know from my stand point,I have a rider who can handle a 450 w/o an issue.....but.....I don't think opening up the 450 world to 15 y/o is a good idea for the 15y/o as a whole....hopefully there's some kind of logic to this when they make their final ruling.keeping our kids safe should be our number one priority!!!!

[rookiewrench]

I am in favor of the age change for the 450 class.. It may be for my own selfish reasons, but I also would rather have my son on a 450r than a 300ex by far. My son also has to be able to get to a point that I feel that he can handle the 450 safely not only for himself but also those around him. We as parent need to be he ones who use our discression on what our kids can handle also. I would not put my son on a quad that he could not handle safely. If I remember correctly, Joel never ran the youth production class so I wonder if it was because of the machine that you would need to ride and he was a special rider back then.

I can not handle the cost of building him a 400 to run one year and there is not way I am building him a 250 water cooled for one year. There are a few riders that I think can benefit form the rule change, Cam being the first one that came to my mind on sunday when I was told of the possibility.

All I can say is if they change the age I only hope parent don't put there kids in harms way just because they have the option of running them in the 450 class. There are young men that can handle running the 450 at 15y/o but like Rich said not all can handle racing one just because they can ride one.

[Ryko racing]

Well said. Its funny because Ryans first comment when racing his 450 for the first time was " those guys just run right into you".
These are MEN and most 15 yr olds cant handle that atmosphere.

Just my opinion.

[camsdad]

This sport has to evolve someway,every year we loose a few riders because of the way the classes are structured.look back at how many 15 y/o cvt riders we've had.now look back and see how many never made the transition to the amateur classes.why do you think that is????im not sure but I will speculate....maybe they were overwhelmed at by the transition from auto mini to 450 ,idk ,but it's something to think about.i think the miniquads should be left to the younger kids. That's just my opinion and maybe that's why Im in the predicament I'm in ,I've always advanced cam to make him a better rider.cam will be 15 in 3 wks and has no where to go until he can ride a 450...

[camsdad]

My previous post wast meant to state ...15 to 17 y/o 450 class...this would allow schoolboy sr riders to compete in two classes on one machine.any of the top 4 schoolboy sr riders from 2012 could compete in the B and C classes on their 400s.this would also allow the rider that has moved up to a 450 from the mini world a safer place to adjust to the 450.

[thequadfather+2]

Mr Covil you are right - Cam obviously could handle a 450 and make good decisions. I think thats based on his training, experience, maturity and talent. That is a very rare combo at his age.

A stock 450 class as mentioned would allow 15 year olds in every town we hold a race to jump in and race their quad. It may be their first race or their first natioanl level race but that is a disaster waiting to happen, for them and for the experienced rider that has to ride with them. There are so many rare cases where a 15 year old can consistantly race a 450 at that level that it would put more kids (who shouldnt be) on the gate with a couple riders that can.

I take those kind of kids to the hospital all the time. I dont believe most of them possess the skill to match their confidence. When they are younger (6-12) kids usually possess a healthy amount of fear that prevents them from over stepping their limits...Until dad pushes them beyond that point. Most 15 year olds are at an age where they develope an arrogant attitude about their own safety and abilities.....

Everyone has an opinion....This is mine. Are the 250's and 300's not fast enough? Looking at the big picture; what is the gain versus the risk? We have to take the responsibility to make decisions based on our experience....Any of you remember when you were 15 and think--man I'm lucky to be here. I certainly do--I probably shouldnt have been allowed to drive much less given the fastest car in school, town. :huh

We have all been there and I still see it on a routine basis....let it go, not worth it.

[Ryko racing]

Good point. I never understood the argument to basically skip the schoolboy classes. They have good machinery at reasonable cost and the classes are competitive.

Its sad but a lot of parents would put jr on a 450 rather than spend afew bucks building a good race quad.

I think Camsdad has a great idea.

[rageatvsupermom]

I am thankful everyday that when we put our daughter on a 450 at 14 that she did not get hurt. It makes me sick sometimes thinking of what could have happened...and we moved her from a blaster to a 450 for what? I just hope everyone is patient with their kids and let them progress at their own pace. None of this is worth a life changing injury or even death.

[Ryko racing]

AMEN.

[mini racer #39]

if the 15 year old on a 450 rule passes will it be a ama/atva rule change for all distric racing or will it be just for national events. if just for nationals then the kids will have to go back to racing there mod or miniquad,300 or 400 at locals??

[doonanracing]

This was taken from the EDT Website which follow allot of the same rules that the MX series follows

2012 EDT Rule Change per AMA Rules:



The AMA has lowered the age limit to be eligible to participate in the Amateur classes. The minimum age is now 15 years old versus 16 years old. As EDT follows the AMA Rules, we have also changed the age for amateur riders from 16 to 15. You MUST also meet the related criteria of AMA, which is located in the AMA Rules under Section 4.1, page 155 and page 169. If you race in an amateur class, you can not then race in a youth class, and any points received in other classes do not transfer.

[Ryko racing]

Our local promoters will never allow this. Nationals yes but local i doubt it.

[Hetrick Racing]

The AMA passed the 15 year structure last year or maybe 2 years ago.
BUT the National and 90%of the Districts didnt pick it up thinking the correct way.
Why the EDT is going with it is beyond me.
Those guys run 70 to 80 mph yea thats not a good idea to stick younger kids out there that have only went that fast in a car when someone else is driving.
I am glad to see some proper thinking here.
The pocket book should not regulate common sense.

The way I look at this and I am not being rude.We have worked hard and earned every good and bad moment at the track.
Just as all others have, but racing is not cheap and corners should not be cut nor short cuts should be made to save a buck!!
If someone cannot afford to race and build competitive Safe equipment,honestly
they should take up a sport that only requires one ball
Thats all I got to say about that !!!

[Ryko racing]

WELL SAID RICH.
I KNOW THERE ARE SOME KIDS THAT CAN HANDLE IT. BUT WE DONT NEED TO BE CARTING THESE KIDS TO THE HOSPITAL EVERY WEEKEND. ( NOT TO MENTION THE GOVT N MEDIA WOULD BE ALL OVER THAT AND THEN THEY WOULD STEP IN BECAUSE THEY KNOW HOW TO TAKE CARE OF US ALL.)

THIS IS A DIFFICULT DISCUSSION.

[trompen542]

When my son turned 15, he was small, and not able to handle the weight of the 450 safely, that is why we built him the 250 based mod, which was only about 20 lbs heavier then his 90 mod. Thomas Brown, was another rider that went this route, and I think it helped them both have enough time to grow into the 450's,safely.

[Logan #34's Dad]

So you think its safer to put a 15 year old on a 300 or 400 that has tons of power, weighs a lot more, has inferior suspension geometry compaired to a 450?
I'd say the 300's and 400's have plenty enough power to get any 15/16 year old in trouble and seriously hurt..... and we allow a 13 yo to ride a 300.... A 450 is safer imo. And if Daddy Warbucks who puts a rocket ship under his rider can live with seeing his child being lifeflighted and worse....shame on him.....but that's on them parents....
Every situation is different..... There are those special kids that can make that leap.

[mini racer #39]

My son Erik is 5'11" and 205 lbs. He has been practicing the 450 for 2yrs and I'm pretty sure I'm still not ready to see him race full on at the nationals yet in the 450 class. We have a full national 400 and we have been on the track at the same time as the 450's at our local series. Schoolboy Sr, Schoolboy Jr., amd usually 450 B run at the same time. With him only being 14 years old, we can wait on the 450 class.

[thequadfather+2]

Hey Rock, If they can get hurt on a 300 then heck lets throw our hands up and give them a 450. All machines have limits so I dont think riding a 300 or a quad with less friendly suspension is an excuse to open the doors for all 15 year old kids to jump on a 450. The reverse can be said -- being on a more capable quad will encourage kids to attempt jumps and speeds they wouldnt normally be doing.

My 11 year old (Jordan) can handle a gun. He has killed a couple deer and hunts with his grandfather on a regular basis. He uses a pellet gun here at the house without supervision but I would not turn him loose alone with a high powered riffle or my 9mm Berretta. I think every organization has to set rules based on whats best for their masses, understanding a few may be qualified or capable but those arent the ones they (we) are worried about.

Rocky, I know you have a different opinion but, Like me, you see 15 year old kids that think they are men and you see parents who dont care.....Those same kids are going to be on the track pinning the throttle, hanging on to a quad they cant really ride at full tilt and they dont have the judgement to pull it off. Where do you draw the line? why not 14 years old - Afterall there are a few that can.

oh well, just my opinion.

[hanker]

From being around ATV racing for the past 25+ plus years on and off. When my son wanted to start racing. I really started to look at the youth classes. When I saw that 12 and 13 year olds were riding 250+cc machines. I thought they were crazy! I started thinking to myself that Curtis Sparks and a lot of other grown men use to race 200cc 4and2 strokes. At the time I think the highest cc limit for kids was 125 2-stroke. Call me old I guess, but some of the age limits and cc limits are a little off.

[Logan #34's Dad]

I see both sides of this one. You have kids like Covil that as a 15yo can run with the best pro-am riders. Then there is a kid like my Logan at the same age that is far from ready to be on 450. Logan just is not big enough and strong enough yet.
Maybe they should make it a thing where a parent has to petition the ATVA to allow their 15 year old run a 450. Make it - 15 year olds are eligible with ATVA approval ....
I for one will follow the advice of Mr. H and never put my kid on a heavy, outdated 300ex....
Musick went from 90 mod n Supermini to a fast 450 and was just fine. Lots of our kids are practicing on 450's anyhow.

[mxdad423]

Brandon is no where near the best rider on the track, but on the right machine he will hold his own. Some of the 300's are building more HP then stock 450's, we have one of them, the 300 weighs about the same as a 450. Brandon raced his 450 2 times at the end of this year at some local races, and he did just fine, and he is still 14, wont be 15 till January. I know all kids are different, but like Brandon, he will only do what he knows he is capable of doing, I wouldn't think twice about letting him race his 450 at the Nationals in c class. I keep hearing a FEW of you saying how big of a mistake it would be, but, the NEATV age is 15, the MDRA age is 15, and I am pretty sure the WORCS age is 15, apparently it is working ok for them. I see no problem with bumping the age to 15, the parent should know if his or her rider is capable of making the transistion, isn't that what being a parent is about? If you put a kid on a machine knowing his or her skill level is not sufficient, then shame on you, you are no kind of parent. I am very much in favor of the age change, I think if will really help a lot of riders that can make the transistion. again, all the other series made it 15, and I haven't heard any complaints about it. Take Cam for example, I watched him in the sr class all year pretty much run away from everybody, I am pretty sure he could go to Pro am and be very competitive, but here he sets stuck because of the 16 year old rule, and I know for a fact there are a lot more out there that could be on a 450 in c class at 15 without any issues. Its really simple, make the change to 15, if your child isn't ready, KEEP THEM IN THE JR AND SR CLASS, but for those of those that are ready the option will be there for them, I don't see where the problem is. I really hope whoever makes the final decision on this really looks at all the other series across the US that allows 15 year olds to run 450's before they make a decision, apperantley the AMA is ok with it being they changed it a year or so ago. Sorry guys but this is my opinion and nothing will change it, I don't see a problem with it.

[rookiewrench]

It seems to me that many of you that may be opposed to the change are trying to protect the young men/women from the stupidity of their own parents but why is that the responsibility of the ATVA and why should that restrict the riders that are ready for the 450 class?

My 11 year old (Jordan) can handle a gun. He has killed a couple deer and hunts with his grandfather on a regular basis. He uses a pellet gun here at the house without supervision but I would not turn him loose alone with a high powered riffle or my 9mm Berretta
thequadfather+2 you would be one of the responsible parent that would make the correct decision with your rider and that goes to my point about parent responsibility!! I would like to think that the majority of parents that do the nationals are aware of their riders ability and will make the correct decision.

[mxdad423]

I think somebody may have already mentioned this but if not I will, forgot it in my last post. Most of the Jr and Sr riders already have 450's that they practice with on practice tracks, Brandon has had his 450 since he was 13 and practiced with it at home, as of a lot of others.

[mxdad423]

Originally posted by Hetrick Racing


The way I look at this and I am not being rude.We have worked hard and earned every good and bad moment at the track.
Just as all others have, but racing is not cheap and corners should not be cut nor short cuts should be made to save a buck!!
If someone cannot afford to race and build competitive Safe equipment,honestly
they should take up a sport that only requires one ball
Thats all I got to say about that !!!

Rich, I know how much you have done for this sport, it would not be what it is without people like you, and I generally agree 100% with you, but not this time, sorry. LOL
We all know racing is expensive, but there is a difference of it being an expensive sport and just being plain STUPID. I am not a wealthy person, I am not a poor person, I am like most, middle class, BUT, even if I was very wealthy, there is no way in He** I would spend 30,000.00 on a 250, that isjust stupidity, Im sorry, just doesn't make a lot so sense. I just don't see what the big deal is, I have no problem with there being something like that available for those that want to spend 30g's, but let them have their own class, why not, we have 50 different CVT classes, whats one more schoolboy class going to hurt, that's all I was saying, sure let the JB available and leagal but just give them their own class, in 2 or 3 years if the numbers are going down in the 300 air cooled class to very low numbers then eliminate it, but don't do it now when there are sill 15 and up on the gate at just about every race. I see a lot of the CVT classes and some of the 450 classes with 8 or less on the gate consistently and we have time for them, so we should for the 300's also.

[desratt]

Anyone have a link to the class definitions

[LT80]

IMO, I cannot believe that 15 on a 450 is a good idea. NEVER_EVER_EVER!!!!!

"It seems to me that many of you that may be opposed to the change are trying to protect the young men/women from the stupidity of their own parents"
IMO, We need to remember that the rules are set for the majority. And the majority of parents would run right out and get their inexpierienced kid a 450. In THIS forum the majority may be able handle it.

"but why is that the responsibility of the ATVA"
FYI: It's really the promotors group.

"and why should that restrict the riders that are ready for the 450 class?"
1st thing I can think of is insurance.

It's been my expierience that as soon as a rider gets big enough to throw the machine around, INSTEAD of the machine throwing the rider around, the PARENTS get a big idea and advance to a bigger machine.

IMO, we need to think on the side of safety on this one.

SORRY for the CAPS but I wanted MR.RYKO to HEAR me. :D

[Hetrick Racing]

I guess some of what I said was not taken properly.
What I am saying is this.
If a team cannot afford to buy a jb250 then DONT .
Go ahead and race a quad the team can afford that is safe and competitive.
Maybe in a different class.
But do not cut a corner and vote for a rule that will put 15 year old kids on a 450 to meet the specific budget.

Or like I stated take a few off and ride what you like (play baseball lol)then come back when its time and race as safe as possible.

NO SHORT CUTS THESE ARE OUR KIDS !!!

[neveready]

The point that I think some are making here and other aren't is based on their own ego.... "My kid can do it!!", Right?

The position I see is not the ability for a 15 yr old to handle and ride a 450, sure they all practice on them and do well... but we arent talking practicing here by themselves.

Can a 15 yr old make quick responsible decisions at 50mph on a track with other riders potentially twice there age, whom like was earlier said ail "run right into you"??

[Ryko racing]

LT80. I CAN HEAR JUST FINE ITS MY READING THATS A LITTLE OFF. LOL... IT MAY BE BECAUSE INSTEAD OF GLASSES I SPENT $ 25000 GRAND LAST SEASON BUILDING A SUPERMINI AND 90 FOR MY SON WHO OUTGREW IT BEFORE THE FIRST NATIONAL. LOL....

THANK GOD WE HAD ONE OF THOSE HEAVY OLD 300' S TO RIDE. LOL......

THIS IS A GOOD DISCUSSION WITH MANY VALID POINTS. IT ACTUALLY GOES BACK TO THE PARENTS NOT RUSHING THE KIDS JUST TO SAVE A FEW BUCKS. ( RYANS BEEN TRAINING ON A 450 FOR 4 MOS AND WEIGHS 170 LBS AND UNFORTUNATELY HE HAS WRECKED IT HARD 3 TIMES PRACTICING . ( THEY WILL JUMP UP AND BITE EM IF THEY ARE NOT CAREFUL.) AND THAT IS WITH SUPERVISION IN CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT.
BUT HE IS PUSHING HIMSELF TO GO FASTER.
WE AS PARENTS NEED TO POLICE OUR KIDS. SOME CAN HANDLE IT AND SOME CANT. LETS JUST USE OUR HEADS .....

[LT80]

LOL :)

[Ryko racing]

HEY LT 80 WHEN YOU BRING ME MY NEW KEYBOARD SHOW ME HOW TO PUT THE FACES ON HERE. LOL....

BY THE WAY I DO HAVE A CHEAP TRX 450 RACE QUAD FOR SALE .

$ 4000 . CK CLASSIFIEDS.

[mxdad423]

Sorry Rich, I did maybe misunderstand what you were saying, LOL. MY BAD........LOL
But, you know there is always a but, LOL, nobody has answered my question yet. The other big series's have been running the 15 year olds on 450's for a few years now and I haven't heard of higher number of injuries, and I'm sure if there was, we would be hearing about it. So again, I think just about all of the parents of our kids that run the Nats are responsible enough to know what their kid can handle, Im sure there are a few knuckelheads that just don't care but for the most part I think most do.
LT80, I don't think there would be any insurance issue's for 2 reason's, 1, because according to AMA rules, a 15 year old is eligible to run a 450 and 2, because if there were insurance issue's the other big series's would not be able to do it. I don't think series like the MDRA would be able to do insurance for a 15 year old on a 450 and the ATVA couldn't, just my take on it.

[camsdad]

Seems to me this is an issue similar to abortion...some for it some against it,I personally don't care either way.what it boils down to is this....the promoters will do whatever they feel will benefit themselves the most..oh they will tell you they are looking out for the racer!!!!the what can we do for you guys atmosphere at the banquet reminded me alot of back in the wpsa days.granted the amateur guys don't have a place at the stadium series but don't think for a second the promoters aren't worried that if it goes well this yr that maybe some more classes wil be added next season...

[Ryko racing]

Indoor sounds good to us. If you cant race indoors you will never make aliving racing mx. Sad but true.

It would be great to have both series work together but i dont think THEY look at it that way. $$$$$$

This sounds like a good year if the economy doesnt collapse.

I wish we had a competitive local series here in Michigan. It would be great to hit just a select few National qualifiers with a final at Lorettas like the bikes. ( just dreaming)

[hanker]

Everybody has good points about this. Another way to look at this is there are women in the EDT series that don't even weigh a 100pounds with all there gear on racing 450's.

A lot of this goes back to the "big 5 or 6" manufacturers. Really there isn't anything to fill the gap between the mini classes and the 450's.(With the exception of Yamaha). I just can't see why anyone should have to make the jump to a 450.

I myself would love to be able to race with out having to do it on a 450. A nice 4-stroke 250r would be great. Then I wouldn't have to worry getting my arms pulled out of socket by a 450.

[jake55]

Originally posted by hanker


A lot of this goes back to the "big 5 or 6" manufacturers. Really there isn't anything to fill the gap between the mini classes and the 450's.(With the exception of Yamaha). I just can't see why anyone should have to make the jump to a 450.

that is why we NEED the JB/hybird 250's!!!

the word "production" should be eliminated from most if not all classes. let's face, very little of our quads remain production.

15 is to young to be on a 450, and to old to be on a cvt. the 90cvt 8 to 15 years old is nuts, none of the CVT classes should have 14 or 15 year olds in them....which is another reason why we need the JB/hybird 250!!

we have way to many guys that are only worried about themselves and today and not willing to look ahead and move forward. I love going to the track with my kid and look forward to the day i get to take a grandkid to the track, problem is, if we keep fighting for this "production" garbage, i/we wont have a place to take that grandchild.

come on guys, open your minds and look past right now.
the aftermarket guys are trying to save us, let's help them help us!!!!

[Logan #34's Dad]

I agree with most of what your saying Rob, however, the Apex 250 nor new JB 250 have any business being considered as 'production". That is why the ATVPG have decided to create a 250 watercooled class. Basically a mod class. Which allows us average middle class parents to build a Honda 450 into a 250 mod, a Yamaha 450r into a 250 mod, ect. Then your rider is on a "safe" chassis with a lil less power until he is ready to jump to a 450. Now, if daddy warbucks wants to go spend 12k - 20k for a custom machine then so be it.... they are gonna be pissed when a CanAm 250 beats them though...:devil:

[jake55]

yes rock, that's why i stated "the word production should be eliminated from most if not all class"

[doonanracing]

21 Amateur and Pro class only 5 are production only. Only 1 hybrid atv I am aware of won a championship in any major series XC, TT, or MX, even though hybrid atv's are allowed in almost all classes. 12 youth class 7 are production only just the opposite of amateur racing. None of these so called production atv's where ever made and designed to race like some of the 450s and the costs to make them National caliper like a DRR is allot more than any other atv I have ever owned which includes a JB mod. The one's that are designed for racing are Cobra, JB or Fischer mods and some of the newer Apex models to name a few, but most classes do not allow these. Atv's designed for racing are by design going to be safer and that is what seems to be the consensus of what everyone is looking for. That is why I bucked up and purchased a used JB mod as I needed an atv that fit my child not an atv that fit a certain class and this made my son safer on the track. As far as riders riding over the head, I watched a 4 year old on a stock 50cc run into every atv on the track and used his dad's truck to stop, watched a 11 year old on a 90cc on a built 2 fast motor run into every rider and a 14 year old on a 300ex whom hit everyone also and all are within the class structure that we have. My race career ended because of an 18 year old on a 450 whom rode out of control. So is stopping a 15 year old whom is too big for a youth atv and can handle a 450 the answer? Involved in youth sports for the past 10 plus years and running an organization with over 600 participants I can say there is some large kids out there. I know of 12 or 13 year olds that are close to 6 feet tall and 180llbs, as I would like to see him on a DRR as that is what they are allowed by rules and build them a mod to fit their size and most local series do not have anything for the mod groups and most parents can't afford to run Nationals. Racing starts and finishes and builds at the local level which everyone seems to agree about and the local regional series mostly follow the rules which the National series go by. I can attest if they walk away for a year or so then state they are going to get back into it. The percentage that actually will is very small. Once someone quits they are not coming back as I can attest from actual numbers using the organizations I have been involved in. Next years lead sponsor from what I understand is a drink not a manufacturer. Those couple atv builders I mentioned seem to be the only manufacturers interested in the youth racing market although the current class structure limits the classes they can run. Honda just discontinued the 300ex which by design is not a race atv but yet we raced it. The DRR was not designed to be a race atv although it has turned into one. Class structure should be designed around the riders, experience and cc sizes just like amateur classes not a particular atv. Kids grow and develop at different sizes and also emotionally. Some riders will win no matter what atv they are on just because they are that good. Hybrids have not distroyed amateur racing but probably made it better as some of us whom put a Yamaha 426 motor in a 400ex or 250r frame years ago gave the ideas that Yamaha used to create the 450 which changed everything and now you can get a race ready 450 pretty affordably. Youth atv racing seems to be hesitant to allow them in as maybe they can lead and change youth racing maybe not now but in the future which I would hope is everyone's goal. Racing is expensive period. Win lose or whatever you have one shot while your child is growing up. No other activity to me for bonding and time spent together is better than racing. To me that is worth every penny I have spent. Everything costs too darn much anymore but time is the one thing you will never get back. The word "Production" Needs to be removed period for youth racing to grow.

[Hetrick Racing]

You are exactly correct .
The PRODUCTION and or homologation was put in place for the bikes;they run a stock class and or classes.
We do not have stock classes or do we have a need for this.

Most of you guys missed it when racing was aftermarket before the second return of the factory support.

It was good and it had to be that way to make it survive.

keep complaining and watch it all go away

[mxdad423]

A lot of you are missing the point here, many of us DID NOT say we did not want the mods to be produced, we just said don't eliminate a class that had some of the best numbers of the whole series, not yet, wait till there aren't enough of them showing up, then drop the class. I can garauntee you if you make a 250 mod class for this year and leave the 300 class the way it is, the numbers in the 300 class will dwarf the 250 mod class. I am all for moving forward, but I refuse to spend 30,000.00 on a dam* 250, that is just absolutely nuts, if some of you with large pockets want to spend it, go right ahead, that's your stupidity. I am not going to be the dumb a** to go spend 30,000.00 for it now, so somebody else can buy it from me in a year or two after there are used ones available for 8000.00 or less. If I have to take my son elsewhere to race where he can run his 450 and his 300 then so be it. I just don't understand what the big deal is about leaving things alone and just adding a class, that would make it good for everybody. Now you say eliminate all production classes, how many do you think that already have 10,000.00 to 25,000.00 in machines set up for the productions classes are going to be able to afford to make the switch, come on guys, use you da*mn heads, keep it up, and yep, your right we won't have anywhere to race, because nobody will be able to build what they need to go except for the hand full of you that have unlimited amounts of money.
By the way, I still haven't got an answer on why none of the other series is having major injurie problems with 15 year olds on a 450, let me tell you why I haven't got an answer, because there hasent been any.........I'm done discussing this, go ahead and eliminate the production classes and keep the age where it is for the 450's, GOOD LUCK...........

[lilman]

im not trying to argue but 10-25000 into a prod machine is hardly a prod machine lol. i have had 4 jbs built and im not sure how anyone could posibly put 30gs into one<maybe some 24 carrot gold plating>A ground up build isent much more than taking a 300 and adding comparable parts<if going all new> let alone some of the apex 2 fast quads i have seen<factoring in at least 2 frames for a season> sepsi and mack would still win on a raptor /blaster/300ex what ever they were violating at the time lol.as well as the rider i saw at lorettas riding a can am with a cr in it. <and dam fast to> these kids will rip on whatever they are on.we would all like full gates ! i havent heard a kid yet say " well he beat me but hes riding a jb or a fischer whtever! they just want to race. 200cc two 300 four run what you brung as long as your age apropriate. if you are a bigger kid kickin *** finish your season were you are ,if you feel he needs to advance before aging out, present your request to an advancement commity consiting of your peers.
<just dont want to mislead people into thinking it will cost 30,000 to build a great stable and capable machine>
cheers :)

[lilman]

feel free to do your own math on a new build .roughly 6200 ad change for the bare chassis ,4200-5 should put you on a tricked out roller. pick your poison for a mill ! ride em for 2 yrs and sell em for 8500 lol
we put 150hrs on our 250 and then had to adjust the valves! just wanted to see how far we could get. only 15% leak down now. going to freshen it up just because i have never put this many hrs on any race mill before and we couldent blow it lol. more money in your pocket if you ask me.

[Logan #34's Dad]

MAN lilman, your jargon is hard to follow - eh. Kinda like talking to Rusty Mack or Jim Tibbetts....ya'all got an accent. Just kindin' - Cheers!

[mxdad423]

Originally posted by lilman
i have had 4 jbs built and im not sure how anyone could posibly put 30gs into one
cheers :)

Well all I can say is give them call, because that is what I was quoted on price when I called and talked to them about a new JB250, so you might want to do some checking before you say you don't know how.
As far as 10-25,000.00 into a production quad, it's done everyday, it all depends on what you want to put into it, you can dump 10g's just in an engine, you know that, that's not counting shocks, a-arm, swing arms, nerfs, alxe, ect ect. I just sold a Raptor 250 with well over 12000.00 into it, and that's a raptor 250, not a 450. Yes I know you can build a JB 70 or 90 for 15,000.00 but that is a 70 or 90, again I am just telling you what I was quoted on the 250, Now let me make my self clear, when I say I was told 30,000.00 that is 30,000.00 complete ready to go, rolling chassis, 2013 engine, engine build, wiring, ect. but 30,000.00 complete or not for a 250 is nuts. Sorry just is. And again, IM NOT SAYING DON'T MAKE THEM AVAILABLE, JUST DONT GET RID OF WHAT WE HAVE NOW UNTIL THEY STOP SHOWING GOOD NUMBERS, I CAN NOT STRESS THAT ENOUGH. I know we need to move forward, just not all at once.

[doonanracing]

Here is a list of "Production" youth atv's which you must have to run in most of the youth classes that are to be still produced in 2013: This is scary, not a lot of competition which drives down pricing. Over priced cylinder kits originally designed for scooters to build a competitive motor is what you get, and costs you thousands to make the suspension even safe and nothing for youth 12-15 to transition to a 450 is the result. Elliminating "Production" just in wording and leaving classes like the amateur class structure that follows age, cc, and ability will control costs and create a market. That is why the 450cc models where developed. The Hybrids created a market and therefore the manufacturers had to react to remain competitive and still sale atv's.. that changed the amateur landscape which still allows hybrids in almost all their classes still and eventually drove down costs to build a competitive atv, now it is the youth's side turn. Local levels then can just run 4 classes like 50cc, 70cc, 90cc and youth open 13-15 with not worrying about production etc as they follow the National model which should build the local series also and local farmer Joe can put a cr motor in the Blaster chassis he purchase for $500 so his son can race his buddies in the local 90cc class and be competitive without having to spend 3k on a cvt motor and 3k for a drr from a local dealer as this is not allowed in todays class structure as he is forced to purchase one of the many youth "Production" atvs so his son can race with his buddies so in turn he purchases a motorcycle out from craigslist for $1,5k and races it instead. ATV racing builds from the local level up not National down as they will follow the National series lead. You don't need to change dramatically just it is time to elliminate the wording "Production" from almost every class for youth riders or look at this list below and this is your future. No one needs to hurry and sale off their 300ex's, DRR's or anything else as they will remain competitive just need to look at the bigger picture and the future.

So here is what I came up with:
APEX 59,70,90
DRR 50,70,90CC
Cobra 50,70 are legal and you are allowed to up size engines. rolling chassis only now
Polaris 50,70,90
Pitser Pro-all
Raptor 125 250
TRX90

[Logan #34's Dad]

Noone is talking about the youth classes you are mentioning. The numbers there are strong (maybe they could combine or eliminate a class or two). The difference with the above mentioned machines compared to a "mod" is that Farmer Joe can build up these machines over time to where they are competitive at home to run with his buddies then if his rider and machine are ready - come race on a National level. Whereas Farmer Joe cannot afford a one time purchase of $10,000 plus just to compete against his riders buddies and then we never get that rider at any level.
The discussion is about a production class (schoolboy jr) that has always had good numbers being overtaken by hybrid machines wanting to call themselves production. Again, Farmer Joe can build a 300 over time or at a fair cost used. If he is forced into buying a $20,000 machine do ya think we'll ever see him. Now multiply that by thousands...we'd loose all those kids in the middle between youth and adult classes...and once they go....they will not come back.
I like the direction the ATVPG are going. Making basically a 250 mod class and keeping the air-cooled schoolboy class. As the numbers drop (if they drop) they can eliminate the class in favor of this new 250 class. I think once we parents realize that we can buy a 450 chassis and toss a 250 engine in the same chassis they will race as a 450 someday at a pretty low cost AND be competitive against Daddy Warbucks' rider....this class will be awesome.
I say leave the youth classes alone - including the production label and do what they are doing in the middle classes before 450's. I think this will work in the long haul. Eventually, the people will decide by the amount of riders at the gate which class goes or stays. I think both classes will be here for awhile....
And oh by the way, "Farmer Joe" is the backbone of racing... eliminate him in any form of racing and that racing will die. There just is not enough Daddy Warbucks out there. Unless you want 10 rich kids on a gate...now that's racin'....