2013 mx nationals?

[zyoung04]

I know the '12 season just ended but '13 will be revving up before u know it just wondering if anyone has heard if some of the guys that sat out last year may be back like lawson, creamer, and wimmer? I heard wimmer hung it up but didn't really know if it was forever or just a temporary deal

I think hetrick will be the one to beat next year if he can stay healthy he looked really impressive this year I thought

[8686]

I think Chad Wienen will be the one to beat in 2013.

[chronicsmoke]

^ I agree, he's just an animal out there.

In his heat and finale in Montreal he finished 8 seconds in front of 2nd place. He said he wasn't used to the style of track either, he just has natural talent.

I think Brown, Hetrick, Natalie will be consistant podium contenders too.. I'd like to see Creamer back at nats, his beard is knarley right now!

[dxcody]

Should be a good show next year.

Weinen def looked tough this year.

Hetrick will be tough.

I really look (and hope) for Upperman to step it up.

[89trx250r]

Sad as it is I don't think we will see Wimmer back ever....He got huge paychecks from factory Suzuki and when they left...

[Baracudaaa]

'13 will be a repeat of '12, with the possibility of even less factory support.

[Balaz_73*00]

Pro am is where all the action will be! Looking forward to some new faces stepping up. Musick,Gennusa, prob some other too!

[8686]

Originally posted by Balaz_73*00
Pro am is where all the action will be! Looking forward to some new faces stepping up. Musick,Gennusa, prob some other too!

Got that right.

Watch out for Kyle Fix. When he didn't have bad luck this year (flat tires, etc) he ran solid top 5. Guy is fast.

[rf928]

Don't think we can see Wimmer back :(

Is Gibson gonna be back?

[FHKracingZ]

Gibson will be in the pro class.

[zyoung04]

We can talk pro am to haha. I heard casey martin was practicing for the pro class at Loretta when he crashed anyone heard if he is moving up?

Ill have to agree wienen is a beast and Id say he will tough again next year. Its hard to believe that nataile is as fast as he's ever been and is one of the older guys out there kinda reminds u of gust a fews back the man is a machine to be out there with guys a few years younger than him not calling him old by the way

With Suzuki not making a ltr for 2013 and with them guys not being able to run a frame any older than 3yrs old I wonder what some of the guys that ride Suzuki will do? I could be a lil off on this but just what I've heard and remember seeing somewhere

[Balaz_73*00]

Rastrelli was really the only one running a suzuki. Him and Higgerson, but Higgerson didnt race them all so who knows what he is doing this year. Speaking of Rastrelli, and even Madl, I'd look for those two to be mixing it up with the top 5.

[jigg14]

Originally posted by FHKracingZ
Gibson will be in the pro class.
Isn't that pending support? Or has someone picked him up?

[8686]

Originally posted by Balaz_73*00
Rastrelli was really the only one running a suzuki. Him and Higgerson, but Higgerson didnt race them all so who knows what he is doing this year. Speaking of Rastrelli, and even Madl, I'd look for those two to be mixing it up with the top 5.

I don't see that happening. They weren't even close to being as fast as Wienen, Natalie, Brown, Upperman, or Hetrick this year.

[8686]

Originally posted by jigg14
Isn't that pending support? Or has someone picked him up?

That was my understanding. He would be willing to run the Pro class for 2013, but was looking for more support.

[JAG Motosports]

Madl's facebook says he's not doin nats this year

[rollie]

i heard at the beginning of this year it was creamers last year, just rumors though.

[KingpinsEx]

I'm not looking for many surprises this year, more of the same. Unfortunately when you only have 4-5 guys who can train full time, there is not much action up front. Its been pretty stale the last few years. I can remember mid 00's having 8-9 riders that could win a race, now its like 3-4 regardless of the holeshot. It's sad to see how few guys can make a legitimate run at a pro title. You see so much talent drop out due to no support. The dark ages are coming again, if not here already. Except this time the aftermarket is not stepping up like the used to when the factories backed out. I really miss seeing Lawson and Creamer out there.

[DBF1972]

Great thread, and comments guys. Here are some things I don't understand, and wanted to add:

1. Even less factory support in 2013? That sucks, and I pray to god that doesn't happen. We can't afford to let our sport shrink any more. Makes me concerned.
2. I am back into quad mx, and riding, and have been away for 6 years (family, kids, etc. ya ya ya). I see quads up for sale on craiglist that the seller, says, "Selling because switching to dirt bikes." This keeps happening, we are going to reduce our #'s, and tracks won't allow quads, atc.
3. Quad mx racing is such a "tight group" of dedicated families, and racers, and they are the best & friendiest people I have meet. I used to race bike mx from 1989 - 2004, and for the lack of better words...it is just different.
4. Lawson, Wimmer, and this talk about Creamer leaving is a major blow to the pro ranks. Thankfully, like you mentioned that the pro-am class has the new stars of tomorrow. 2013 will be good, and maybe a repeat of this year, Wienen looks to good on that Yamaha. Maybe Hetrick can challenge more.

Thanks for reading....

[KingpinsEx]

The sad thing is quad mx may never take off. Mainly because its too expensive. Those that do it have a true passion and don't care about the cost. However as there are more bike riders the tracks that do allow quads cater more to the bike crowd. That means the majority of tracks suck for quads, so there are only a few series nation wide that focus strictly on atvs. Do to this numbers, unfortunately will continue to drop. The manufacturers did a great thing and I did see some growth with all the factories pushing it. If you don't have the grass roots it will never really take off. So basically the only people running the nationals is people with $$ or those who spend nearly all they got, which you can only do for so long. Weinen got a 5k purse for winning the pro championship, what a joke! It probably costs him that much per race weekend.

I couldn't agree more about the nationals though, its such a great environment, wish I had the $$ to run them all. Each event I go to is like a mini vacation, regardless of how the races go I always have a great time. Oh and F.Y.I. Creamer has been out of the pro ranks in the nationals. He just raced the NEATV Series and hit up like 2 nationals. If he would have been there all year he would have been top 3 I'm guess.

No doubt there is some serious talent in the pro-am ranks and I give those guys all the credit in the world. Pushing at that level knowing that nothing is waiting for them. Look at Madl dropping out and Gibson is struggling for a ride. There is no future in ATV racing the guys that are sticking it out either got money to burn or made it long ago and can afford to keep going.

[DP #000]

watch out for Mike Troiano in the pro-am classes in 2013. the kid is a natural.

[XCRacer236]

Sounds like MX is even more boring than GNCC...

[QuadJunkies]

Support WILL be down next season, thats for sure ...saddens me greatly. :(

If you race a SxS- numbers will be UP.

UTV racing is where ALOT of racing seems to be growing . ATV sales are DOWN and have been for quite some time .

[89trx250r]

No offense but that is the dumbest **** I have read...So quads are too expensive to modify and race and be competitive...So were gonna make UTV factory teams with sxs's that cost upwards of 30,000-35,000 fully built...A new cam-am costs 23,000...You must know something about the economy we all don't!

[ktmmack]

I agree with the UTV thing. At least out here on the west coast WORCS races, the SxS class is growing FAST! and the quad classes are slowly getting smaller. Makes no sense to me either seeing how much those UTV's cost.

[zyoung04]

The sxs are cool to look at when they race ready but to me their not any different than the off road trucks we see on tv.

It does suck to see atv racing kinda struggle along with exception of the amateur classes did the pro class have a full gate all year?

It still amazes me how Yamaha,Kawasaki and Suzuki have no interest in atv racing, but they will go spend millions on contracts for the pro bike guys. When the pro atv guys train just as hard as the pro bike guys do and dont even come close to making what the bike boys do. Its a shame really that this past year champ made 5gs that would seem like a smack in the face to me

[Baracudaaa]

Originally posted by zyoung04


It still amazes me how Yamaha,Kawasaki and Suzuki have no interest in atv racing, but they will go spend millions on contracts for the pro bike guys. When the pro atv guys train just as hard as the pro bike guys do and dont even come close to making what the bike boys do. Its a shame really that this past year champ made 5gs that would seem like a smack in the face to me

Its all about public interest and advertising potential. When you go to a dirt bike national, expect 50,000+ people, or a full stadium for super cross. Go to an ATV national, and it looks like a ghost town, maybe pushing 5,000 tops. The VAST majority of ATV riders or the gen public simply do not care about sport ATV racing. Face it, us ATV racers are a very very very small minority, probably on par with Jet Ski racing or curling.

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by 89trx250r
No offense but that is the dumbest **** I have read...So quads are too expensive to modify and race and be competitive...So were gonna make UTV factory teams with sxs's that cost upwards of 30,000-35,000 fully built...A new cam-am costs 23,000...You must know something about the economy we all don't! Never once said anything about factory teams? But I wouldnt be surprised . Its growing like crazy . But SALE in geveral for the UTV's are way up . Alot come from a generation of racers who are getting older as well but still want to race . Theres even youth classes forming on the UTV;s . I do actually know alot more of what goes on than you think and I cant say EVERYTHING Im told . ;)
Contengency In that class is also growing and I know if 1 company that's not even going to be supporting quads any longer. People are choosing to race in the cage these days. what I'm saying is times are changing and so is what we race. The market is changing and has been changing for several years . This doesn't affect the motocross portions so much . we were given the cold hard facts of how ATV sales have been in recent years and trust me it's not good .

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by ktmmack
I agree with the UTV thing. At least out here on the west coast WORCS races, the SxS class is growing FAST! and the quad classes are slowly getting smaller. Makes no sense to me either seeing how much those UTV's cost.
I have a feeling next year the UTV's are going to be even bigger than last year too ! Can you imagine 100 of them out there ? :eek2:

It does make me sad to see things with the sport change in a not so postive manner. Things looked good for awhile

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by Baracudaaa
Its all about public interest and advertising potential. When you go to a dirt bike national, expect 50,000+ people, or a full stadium for super cross. Go to an ATV national, and it looks like a ghost town, maybe pushing 5,000 tops. The VAST majority of ATV riders or the gen public simply do not care about sport ATV racing. Face it, us ATV racers are a very very very small minority, probably on par with Jet Ski racing or curling.

[quadrcr161]

Originally posted by Baracudaaa
Its all about public interest and advertising potential. When you go to a dirt bike national, expect 50,000+ people, or a full stadium for super cross. Go to an ATV national, and it looks like a ghost town, maybe pushing 5,000 tops. The VAST majority of ATV riders or the gen public simply do not care about sport ATV racing. Face it, us ATV racers are a very very very small minority, probably on par with Jet Ski racing or curling.

thats it, advertisement, how much advertisement is spread when the bikes go to a track like red bud or lorettas, what about when the quads show up? another thing is the AMA/ATVA hurts mx in general, they wont let anyone race local for money, which means the tracks rely on the riders for money, not spectators so they dont have to advertise. how many local mx tracks are there where people didnt even know they existed? if billy bobs kart track can have the spectators, afford to run at night and pay out each class, why cant a mx track do it?

[skyeryder]

Originally posted by QuadJunkies
Never once said anything about factory teams? But I wouldnt be surprised . Its growing like crazy . But SALE in geveral for the UTV's are way up . Alot come from a generation of racers who are getting older as well but still want to race . Theres even youth classes forming on the UTV;s . I do actually know alot more of what goes on than you think and I cant say EVERYTHING Im told . ;)
Contengency In that class is also growing and I know if 1 company that's not even going to be supporting quads any longer. People are choosing to race in the cage these days. what I'm saying is times are changing and so is what we race. The market is changing and has been changing for several years . This doesn't affect the motocross portions so much . we were given the cold hard facts of how ATV sales have been in recent years and trust me it's not good .

You saying they are going to have youth utv racing, your talking about WORC's right, I'd switch my kid in a heartbeat, would love to get a trophy kart but no racing for them east of mississippi.
Go woods racing 500 plus quads at a GNCC our local 3 Indiana series get over 100 quads each weekend, there's weeks they could compete with a National MX numbers wise.

[skyeryder]

MX Nat's are ridiculous $$$$, What's everyone's thoughts on it being formatted kinda like a GNCC, Youth race one day Adults race the other day, That way your not traveling extra, missing extra work, kids missing extra school, etc.....I believe it might save a few dollars???

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by skyeryder
You saying they are going to have youth utv racing, your talking about WORC's right, I'd switch my kid in a heartbeat, would love to get a trophy kart but no racing for them east of mississippi.
Go woods racing 500 plus quads at a GNCC our local 3 Indiana series get over 100 quads each weekend, there's weeks they could compete with a National MX numbers wise. yes that is correct. There was talk about it at 1 of the meetings at the end of the season.

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by quadrcr161
thats it, advertisement, how much advertisement is spread when the bikes go to a track like red bud or lorettas, what about when the quads show up? another thing is the AMA/ATVA hurts mx in general, they wont let anyone race local for money, which means the tracks rely on the riders for money, not spectators so they dont have to advertise. how many local mx tracks are there where people didnt even know they existed? if billy bobs kart track can have the spectators, afford to run at night and pay out each class, why cant a mx track do it?
the way we are advertised is something ive griped about for 10 years now. Of course it has an effect. It has an effect locally for rider turnouts also if they dont know its out there.

I can't tell you how many times we have had Reeses and know when I knew we even had quad racing! You can expect a sport to grow if you don't expose it . I am curious though how well racer tv views have been and if it will be televised.

Anyone who sees support for 2013 should feel fortunate. Its going to be slim pickens for some ...

[ktmmack]

Racer tv is all we have right now for national tv coverage. Hopefully the ratings are good and it comes back for next year.

[quadrcr161]

Originally posted by QuadJunkies
the way we are advertised is something ive griped about for 10 years now. Of course it has an effect. It has an effect locally for rider turnouts also if they dont know its out there.

I can't tell you how many times we have had Reeses and know when I knew we even had quad racing! You can expect a sport to grow if you don't expose it . I am curious though how well racer tv views have been and if it will be televised.

Anyone who sees support for 2013 should feel fortunate. Its going to be slim pickens for some ...

I've raced since 92, and putting on races since i was 15 and ran a online series that delt with every type of racing except bike and ATV mx and had an active 60,000 people registered. Tried to get the atva involved but they didn't want to. I could give several ideas but no one local ever wants to hear them, the main thing is bringing in new riders and organized practice days to get into tracks. If you don't have the numbers your not getting in, and you not going to get the numbers with no place to ride.

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by quadrcr161
I've raced since 92, and putting on races since i was 15 and ran a online series that delt with every type of racing except bike and ATV mx and had an active 60,000 people registered. Tried to get the atva involved but they didn't want to. I could give several ideas but no one local ever wants to hear them, the main thing is bringing in new riders and organized practice days to get into tracks. If you don't have the numbers your not getting in, and you not going to get the numbers with no place to ride. its like fighting an uphill battle huh.
:/

[quadrcr161]

Originally posted by QuadJunkies
its like fighting an uphill battle huh.
:/
Well you know what the saying is, keep doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by quadrcr161
Well you know what the saying is, keep doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results
AMEN to THAT !
Im living it right NOW .. :p

[zyoung04]

Originally posted by quadrcr161
if billy bobs kart track can have the spectators, afford to run at night and pay out each class, why cant a mx track do it?

U bring up a good point here really. I raced karts myself and know all about the money that is involved with them. Most I ever won was $400 and I won 2 features in 2 different classes both paying $200 to win and they didn't have 6 karts or so in each with an entry fee being a $30 a piece so u know the track lost money on those 2 classes. Now there's only a couple places around here that race mx on the weekends and as far I know they dont have any payback except for the pro classes. Just like someone said earlier the people that do race have to do it just for the competition and the love for the sport cuz their no money to be earned at all in the sport at all. Which makes me wonder how it survives? But I ain't gonna give it up!

[alex-ds]

very interesting topic

Maybe we need red bull (fresh money) sponsorship quads now :D

In Europe the situation is even worst... money is the main problem, but with less quads the problem is very big. Few races due to lack of riders.

Kawasaki left the sport, Suzuki do the same, and the seems like the only two companies are pushing hard in quads, are Yamaha and Can-Am.

Maybe one possible solution can be the tv, if more people see what we can do with a quad on a track, the interesting of racing will grow up.

[blacknblue#2]

Originally posted by alex-ds

Maybe one possible solution can be the tv, if more people see what we can do with a quad on a track, the interesting of racing will grow up.

That would make us grow a bunch...and we had that at one time but someone felt like making a killing a running witht he WPSA money. If we had someone with enough money to give us a couple hours tv time a week the sprt would quadruple i think. But we need a couple hours coverage showing like the Pro amd pro-am....I enjoy watching racer tv but 30 minutes of 10 second clips aint doing a dang thing for us.

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by alex-ds
very interesting topic

Maybe we need red bull (fresh money) sponsorship quads now :D

In Europe the situation is even worst... money is the main problem, but with less quads the problem is very big. Few races due to lack of riders.

Kawasaki left the sport, Suzuki do the same, and the seems like the only two companies are pushing hard in quads, are Yamaha and Can-Am.

Maybe one possible solution can be the tv, if more people see what we can do with a quad on a track, the interesting of racing will grow up.

Id like to see what the ratings were this season for Racer TV . We had TV time once for WORCS and I learned what GODLY amt. of money it costs to supply that 30 minute segment each round . We had ours on a really werid channel and coverage was always messed up, but still cool to say we did it . New for 2013 we now have to share the wk ends with the bikes - alternating the races threwout the day... should be interesting . Our ATV #'s are down, but UTV's are way up .
It looks like even on the Bike side Factory support is cutting back and some arent doing ANY .. I think Kawi's cut there budget completely from what I read .

I wish we had an AMA SX series like the bikes do . would be cool to have Quads race one day and bikes another or something..

Yes I know ... IM DREAMING ... :p

[quadrcr161]

Originally posted by zyoung04


it is or was in the atva rules, if someone raced locally for money they they were considered a pro and had to race in the pro/pro-am class if protested.

plus i dont think the track lost money, how many spectators were there? thats the big money.

TV coverage will only bring the the wana be posers, like what happened when the 450s were released, then it came time to rebuild or pay off the dept and they sold out, what we need the most is CONSISTENT tracks that will let us ride/race. locals who want to ride/race cant get into it and practice when they dont know which tracks are allowing quads when. noone except the totally dedicated will spend $10K or so on a quad to ride it 8-12 laps ( 4 practice, 41st moto 4 2nd moto) once or twice a month if lucky. my 450r has been started twice this year.

EDIT: look up WL McArtly (SP?) he raced another series NQRA if anyone remembers that, was protested by the pros there after he almost beat them on a borrowed quad, ( i was there and knew the quads owner) and had to ride pro am for the rest of the year.
http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=98807

[zyoung04]

Originally posted by quadrcr161
it is or was in the atva rules, if someone raced locally for money they they were considered a pro and had to race in the pro/pro-am class if protested.

plus i dont think the track lost money, how many spectators were there? thats the big money.

TV coverage will only bring the the wana be posers, like what happened when the 450s were released, then it came time to rebuild or pay off the dept and they sold out, what we need the most is CONSISTENT tracks that will let us ride/race. locals who want to ride/race cant get into it and practice when they dont know which tracks are allowing quads when. noone except the totally dedicated will spend $10K or so on a quad to ride it 8-12 laps ( 4 practice, 41st moto 4 2nd moto) once or twice a month if lucky. my 450r has been started twice this year.

EDIT: look up WL McArtly (SP?) he raced another series NQRA if anyone remembers that, was protested by the pros there after he almost beat them on a borrowed quad, ( i was there and knew the quads owner) and had to ride pro am for the rest of the year.
http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=98807

There wasn't hardly anyone there the night that was goin. It was this time of the year and cold in between races I would sit I u the truck to keep warm. So ill bet the track lost money cuz my classes wasn't the only one paying decent money that night.

I never knew anything about this rules. Kind of crappy really. It would help the sport a lil I think if there was a lil money to be earned.

I dont think tv would bring out the posers either. If ur good enough to be in the pro-am or pro class ur definitely not a poser by no means IMO. Back a few years ago if u asked someone what a dirt late model was u would get a funny look. Since speed has been covering them a good bit the sport has attracted big sponsors like Lucas oil and dixie chopper. I've been a fan of dirt racing for years and ill bet those sponsors would have ever shown their nose in the sport if it wasn't on tv. The sprint car guys have had big name sponsors since back in the 80s but they have been on tv for a lot longer also.

[quadrcr161]

Originally posted by zyoung04
There wasn't hardly anyone there the night that was goin. It was this time of the year and cold in between races I would sit I u the truck to keep warm. So ill bet the track lost money cuz my classes wasn't the only one paying decent money that night.

I never knew anything about this rules. Kind of crappy really. It would help the sport a lil I think if there was a lil money to be earned.

I dont think tv would bring out the posers either. If ur good enough to be in the pro-am or pro class ur definitely not a poser by no means IMO. Back a few years ago if u asked someone what a dirt late model was u would get a funny look. Since speed has been covering them a good bit the sport has attracted big sponsors like Lucas oil and dixie chopper. I've been a fan of dirt racing for years and ill bet those sponsors would have ever shown their nose in the sport if it wasn't on tv. The sprint car guys have had big name sponsors since back in the 80s but they have been on tv for a lot longer also.

i still think unless there wasnt anyone there the track at least covered its self. i dont mean posers on tv, but the surge of riders at the track, like then the 450s came out . and dirt late model and sprints were on speed back in the 90's called thursday night thunder, and i was working on them in high school in the 90's. but less people had cable then.

[zyoung04]

Originally posted by quadrcr161
i still think unless there wasnt anyone there the track at least covered its self. i dont mean posers on tv, but the surge of riders at the track, like then the 450s came out . and dirt late model and sprints were on speed back in the 90's called thursday night thunder, and i was working on them in high school in the 90's. but less people had cable then.

I can see ur one them that can't be proved wrong. Im not trying to argue with u or anyone else on here. All I was trying to say is if there was money to he earned the sport may be a lil bigger, cuz their is a lil money to be made in kart racing. I know cuz I've been there and done that. That kart track I was talking about was called double A raceway in Kentucky it closed after that race so apparently they lost enough not to be able to open again. As far the late model thing goes I remember those shows on espn and speed have been around racing since I was 3 and im now 27 and I dont remember seeing these big name sponsors back in the 90s when the show was on. All I was getting at there was the more tv coverage would help bring in these type of sponsors and maybe bring more revenue and support for these guys.

[quadrcr161]

OK, say the nationals get sx kinda of TV coverage how is that going to help local events? The bikes get TV coverage, big money and still make nothing at local races.

[madskrillz2]

Originally posted by quadrcr161
it is or was in the atva rules, if someone raced locally for money they they were considered a pro and had to race in the pro/pro-am class if protested.

plus i dont think the track lost money, how many spectators were there? thats the big money.

TV coverage will only bring the the wana be posers, like what happened when the 450s were released, then it came time to rebuild or pay off the dept and they sold out, what we need the most is CONSISTENT tracks that will let us ride/race. locals who want to ride/race cant get into it and practice when they dont know which tracks are allowing quads when. noone except the totally dedicated will spend $10K or so on a quad to ride it 8-12 laps ( 4 practice, 41st moto 4 2nd moto) once or twice a month if lucky. my 450r has been started twice this year.

EDIT: look up WL McArtly (SP?) he raced another series NQRA if anyone remembers that, was protested by the pros there after he almost beat them on a borrowed quad, ( i was there and knew the quads owner) and had to ride pro am for the rest of the year.
http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=98807

Going kinda off topic but I forgot all about that race. It was Keith's old hybrid wasn't it? Still boggles my mind how Mill Creek got a national over Monster.

[quadrcr161]

Originally posted by madskrillz2
Going kinda off topic but I forgot all about that race. It was Keith's old hybrid wasn't it? Still boggles my mind how Mill Creek got a national over Monster.
Yep that's it, thing is still a monster, I might se it tomorrow while im over by the guys house.

[MXRACER708]

from what i heard, can-am is not having a factory team anymore for 2013 so looks like yami is the only company now with a "factory" support.

[ktmmack]

heard that the support Can AM was giving motoworks team was cut back by alot this year, and thats why its no more, but also heard JB racing is going to take what support Can Am is still offering and form a team.

[FHKracingZ]

I believe the old owners of Monster Mountain HATED quads and would never let that happen. The new owner Tom is an awesome guy and let me and a couple pros stay there and ride in 2011 for a few weeks. He was a great guy to deal with and truly enjoys the quad scene also. He told us he would do whatever in his power to host an ATV national including leveling the SX track for parking if needed!

[quadrcr161]

yea Tom is great, he would still have us as a regular practice if the bike guys didnt complain. you must have stayed when chad wienen was there.