90cc class change proposal

[redonkulousruntsracing]

The following is a letter that I am planning on sending off to the rules makers at the ATVPG, NEATV and my local AMA district for consideration. Read it and see if it makes sense.

I am writing in regards to a possible rule change for the 2013 regarding the youth 90cc classes. There is a provision in there for 125cc four strokes to compete. I am asking that the cc limit be raised to 150-155. In my experience and after talking to many people over the past 2 years, it has come to light that a 125cc 4 stroke cannot compete with a National race built 90cc 2 stroke. Some of these 90's are pushing 25-30 hp. I always used the formula: #cc's 2 stroke x 2 = #cc's 4 stroke. A 125cc 2 stroke = 250cc 4 stroke, 250cc 2 stroke = 450cc 4 stroke and so on. If I use that reasoning, a 125cc 4 stroke is equivalent to a 65-70cc 2 stroke, and we all know how fast the 70cc 2 stroke quads are, I dont think a 125cc 4 stroke stands a chance against a strong 70cc, let alone a 90cc 2 stroke. Keep in mind that I am making apples to apples comparisons also, a full built, top of the line 125cc 4 stroke will not even come close to the top end 90cc 2 strokes out there. So I am making a request that you consider raising the 4 stroke cc limit to 150-155 so that they can be competitive with the 90cc 2 stroke quads. I dont see a downside to this rule change, and it would get the 4 stroke guys a chance to run competitively with the 2 stroke guys, maybe it would even lead to manufacturers building a good quality race quad for 8-12 year olds to ride, but, I said maybe.
Thanks for your time, I hope you take the time to consider this proposal.

[T@AFP]

I am all for this change.

I will be talking to the GNCC/Racer Productions about this proposal too.

I modestly mentioned this last year and dropped the ball on it.

It's time for a change.....

I expect resistance but CLEARLY, we need to have a more even playing field.

I just came back from a shop and we did some dyno runs on a "well built" Raptor 125. Our maximum horsepower is.................... 10.28 hsp!
When it was a fresh build. On a different dyno our max HSP was....11.8

Yeh, knife to a gun fight.

We need everyones input on this one.

[ontargetracing]

didn't a four stroke 125 win a few nationals this year in the production 90 class..?? against one of the fastest female riders on the planet..?

[thequadfather+2]

I dont believe Guyer rode production:devil: For those of you who dont already know...I am kidding.

Walters won on a 125 but a couple races back switched to a 2 stroke. He said the 2stroke just pulled away in the straight while he was standing on the gas.

[ontargetracing]

Well I am sure that a 90cc 2stroke can prob make more hp than a 125 4stroke. Its not all about hp.. Torque and power delivery are very important.. I am a roadrace guy and I know in world superbike Ducati's make less hp and have alot lower top speed than the inline fours and aprilia's v4 they still manage to win lots of races...

I am sure a 150cc pitster style motor can be built to be competitive. However, a good 150r Honda dirt bike motor would smoke a 90cc scooter motor IMO.

I have a 2fast and a cobra with a rm85 motor and if I had to chose I would go with the stock 85 dirt bike motor all day.. And I really like cvt's.. SERIOUSLY

I really don't care wither way.. Just stiring the pot :)

[ontargetracing]

Haha quadfather I just caught what you said.. I did say "one of the fastest"

I just looked at the production 90 results looks like 4strokes won 3 and Wiley mod 90's won 5..

[redonkulousruntsracing]

I am just think its time to even the playing field. 125cc's just isn't enough. To give the 4 stroke guys a fighting chance we need to up it to 150cc's. My opinion is that if a kid can get the chance to ride a four stroke beginning at age 8 competitively, they will be used to the power delivery characteristics of a four stroke when its time to move up to a 300 and then a 450.

[bigdaddy77]

we have 2 Pitsters . 1 is a 125 cc four stroke " firepower mini built with a takegawa 4 valve head and cylinder and a back up motor with takegawa super r2 head". The other quad has a cr 85 motor. We just picked up the mod and with just afew quick practices his lap times are smoking the 4 stroke.
I think the Honda's Scott Cains build has a advantage hp wise over the Pitsters because of the direct drive set up robbing less hp over the conventional bottom end.
I will be all for the change let me know how I can help. But I think its going to have to be done on the production class only or you will see a bunch of CRF 150's in the 90 mod class.

[thequadfather+2]

I think everyone is probably right but there are a bunch of things to look at. If the rule allows an Apex with a 2stroke dirt bike motor into the production class and you change the rule to allow 4 strokes to go up to 150 then why couldnt the 4 stroke guys bring a qualifying dirt bike motor as well, like the 150R. It may not happen the first year but as the old saying goes--whats good for the goose......It does apear the 125 is a bit under powered when stacked against some of the 2 strokes out there now. It probably does need to be changed but be careful, it comes with a can of worms.

I like to see all of the quads pretty evenly matched at baseline and if there is an advantage it has to be with the tunning abilities with regard to suspension, clutching, gearing, jetting ect...Everyone knocks on the CVT machines but when you think about it the 50 class is all Malossi, the 70 class is almost all RT and the 90 class is almost all 2fast. The machines all start out with the same baseline and it's up to the engine builders, tuners and mechanics to get the most they can get, then the rider has to seal the deal....

I think variety is a good thing too, Nascar used to run the IROC series where all the cars were the same and let the drivers duke it out but it never was a fan favorite and most of the drivers really didnt care much for it.

[ontargetracing]

I would like to see a stock class or maybe even a stock appearing class... less money and usually good racing

[desratt]

don't the raptors and pitsters have gears???

[bigdaddy77]

Im confussed by your post about gears. Yes the Pitster and Raptor have gears and manual clutches. I dont know much about the direct drive honda's just what Terry at Firepower told me why he feels the honda makes more hp. He said as far as the Pitsters they have a heavier bottom end meaning it takes more away from the motor to turn the bottom end. Crank , tranny , and centrifical clutch being the biggest hp robber.
As far as the Honda CRF 150 goes you see what its doing in the Super Mini class. These other motors at 150 wont stand a chance. Just my 2 cents. We are going to run a few Nationals next year regardless of the changes, if any. Wanted to make the last 2 this year but working out of town and 6 days a week doesnt make it possible.

[FISH ON!]

Originally posted by T@AFP

I just came back from a shop and we did some dyno runs on a "well built" Raptor 125. Our maximum horsepower is.................... 10.28 hsp!
When it was a fresh build. On a different dyno our max HSP was....11.8


Tom, there are a couple guys who have seemed to make them 125s really rip. Did you think you would ever see the day a Raptor 125 would hold it's ground against a 2fast and the best built Cobra in a field drag? It happenned. For only the first full season of running those machines, they have come a long long way and I would expect by next season they will be even faster. The secrets will slowly get out.

It's an age old argument and the bottom line is there is no good way to compare a 4-stroke to a 2-stroke CVT. Yeah it is a little easier to draw a comparison when it is gear case motor against a gear case motor and you have to look at torque along with hp.

The 150 will definitely let you get there for a lot less money than that $5K plus cvt motor and I'm all for raising the bar. I'm trying to figure out how to raise that bar all the time but my check book aint coorporating!! lol

I think the change would be another big blow to the cvt market though. CVTs (with exception of 70cc) are nearly extinct in GNCC racing in comparison to the number of Raptors.

Just my $0.02 worth....... not looking to fuel any arguments.

[skyeryder]

Originally posted by ontargetracing
I would like to see a stock class or maybe even a stock appearing class... less money and usually good racing

I love this idea, we want to run nationals mx but when you hear of guys have different motors for different tracks, the cost of a 2fast and now it has moved to the 70 class, I'd like to stock cylinders what ever your builder can do with it, but the ability to mod the rest of the quad how you want

[redonkulousruntsracing]

Didnt they add the 90 limited class they were talking about?

[rookiewrench]

As I read this post I have to laugh because people are talking about raising the cc limit in the supermini class for the 2 strokes because they say thay 105cc is not enough to compete with the 150r 4 stroke superminis. They want to raise the limit to 112cc to now give them an advantage. I guess all it takes to want a rule change is for one or the other to not be as competitive. I don't feel that horsepower is the answer to the problem. My son's 150 supermini makes about 24hp and is competitive on the national level, a 105 R&D 105 supermini suzuki motor can put out 30+HP,according to their website. Much has to do with the rider. I watched Brett Musick on a 105 2 stoke take that bike to victory lane against many 150r's.

I understand that my point above is not for the production class but I am just making a point about always making rule changes to accomadate is not the answer. Heck, why don't we just add a new class so they don't have to run against them. lol

[Dan4994]

They had the limited class last year, and my son was one of the 4 running at Unadilla last year. I was sad to see that it dissapeared as quickly as it came. Seems like it would take more than one season for a class to take off.

[Ryko racing]

Brett Musick all but dominated both 90 mod and Supermini holeshots last year with a 2 stroke non powervalve Honda cr 85 motor.

I loaned him a non stroked 85 race motor for Alabama and he holeshotted the 150 class and i believe won it . The 150 has more torque but a good 2 stroke i believe is faster if the rider can ride it.

Just my opinion.

Another opinion of mine is to go back to true Production class rules in Production classes. (as of today we are now finished with youth classes due to age ,but its my opinion that if we keep allowing the bike motors in the Production classes in another year or two we will be very sorry) as it will be a (whos daddy has the biggest wallet sport....i understand racing is expensive as ive done it my whole life but this is getting crazy plus if we ever want the OEMS to help we need to have the production platform classes.

Good luck everyone at Lorettas.

[Logan #34's Dad]

Originally posted by rookiewrench
As I read this post I have to laugh because people are talking about raising the cc limit in the supermini class for the 2 strokes because they say thay 105cc is not enough to compete with the 150r 4 stroke superminis. They want to raise the limit to 112cc to now give them an advantage. I guess all it takes to want a rule change is for one or the other to not be as competitive. I don't feel that horsepower is the answer to the problem. My son's 150 supermini makes about 24hp and is competitive on the national level, a 105 R&D 105 supermini suzuki motor can put out 30+HP,according to their website. Much has to do with the rider. I watched Brett Musick on a 105 2 stoke take that bike to victory lane against many 150r's.

I understand that my point above is not for the production class but I am just making a point about always making rule changes to accomadate is not the answer. Heck, why don't we just add a new class so they don't have to run against them. lol

The reason people are wanting to change the 2 stroke cc level to 112 because the 150's are dominating the Super-mini class against some stout 105's with good riders (now there are only two 2 strokes(both 90's - for track time) cause everyone knows that in the current system the 2 stroke don't have enough). A 150 cost three times as much to build and maintain which make to class a "who has the biggest wallet" NOW, with that being said, The riders winning the Super-mini class are by far the better riders.....
As far as Musick: Obviously he was/is a gifted rider. BUT remember Sam Rowe won the title on a 150...........So a 105cc machine may out holeshot a 150 but a 4 stroke is just easier to ride due to its smoother power delivery. IMO
And its not seeking an advantage, its about making the two more equal.....like they do for the bikes...
My arguement on the 112cc thing is: If the bikes allow a 112cc to compete against 150 4strokes then why don't the atv's allow it? ATV's are far heavier and get twice the amout of traction and need even more power to propel the machines.

Now, as far as the original thought here.......to keep the Honda 150R engines away from 90cc 2strokes - Make it air cooled only for 150cc.........
I know for a fact that a 125 Honda will NOT beat any 90mod.....BUT the right rider on it can compete with a 90cvt. (depending on riders)

[redonkulousruntsracing]

Good call Rocky making the 150 only air cooled, that would calm everyone's fears of the 150R coming into the picture.

[Ryko racing]

Hey Rocky, how about an air cooled 300 motor in a can am chassis? I may have a motor ? lol. Have fun at Lorettas. We will be back in march.

[Logan #34's Dad]

Originally posted by Ryko racing
Hey Rocky, how about an air cooled 300 motor in a can am chassis? I may have a motor ? lol. Have fun at Lorettas. We will be back in march.

IF it were legal, you know I'd do it. Dang "production" rule.

The ole School-boy Jr. class and maybe Sr. is gonna see a major "shift" next year........you heard it here first....
:devil:

[desratt]

hey lets do a couple of them to make it a production bike.

[desratt]

actually we don't even have to make them. lets just offer them as a kit and we will have the parts drop shipped

[mudatv]

And the frames built in some southerner's garage using lighter chromoly tubing.....:devil:

[redonkulousruntsracing]

Forget the 300ex motor, throw a CR 250F motor in there.

[ValloneRaceTeam]

Originally posted by ontargetracing
I would like to see a stock class or maybe even a stock appearing class... less money and usually good racing

We have tried asking our local track for a 250 four stroke stock class last year and he says they have a 250 open class, not the same. and now this season some nights he doesn't get anyone in that class. and next year a bunch of peewee stock guys have no where to race and may be done. So, hopefully he rethinks his mess up from this season. Because some kids just want to come have some fun and stock classes can be fun and very close racing! And some parents don't have time or money for big mod quads.

Doesn't seem to hurt the National races but we could see numbers go way down at our track and that is sad for quads!

[Ryko racing]

Here is an idea that would help keep the competiton fair. School boy classes must be a Stock Production 450. ( only suspension upgrades,)

That would still support the CAN AM, YAMAHA, AND HOPEFULLY OTHER OEM MAKES.

That would make it so that every racer would be on safe equipment and true rider ability would shine. ( that i guarantee would be a full gate in both classes).

I know this will never happen but it would be the most competitive class out there.