something doesn't add up with Honda

[quad2xtreme]

Speculation that Honda was waiting to deplete current 450r inventory before releasing a new model was inaccurate. New colors and stickers for 2013 mean they are actually running the production line to create these from the ground up. Surely they aren't disassembling inventory and repainting the frames white and putting white plastic and new stickers on them.

Guessing there is a huge one-time cost in switching over the assembly line to a new model and the bean counters don't think the upfront cash outlay is worth it (even if product R&D and marketing execs do).

Is it possible they know the new model is already dated compared to upcoming competitor products or that the reliability just isn't there yet?

[chucked]

Maybe the parts are sitting around?

[quad2xtreme]

Originally posted by chucked
Maybe the parts are sitting around?

Reasonable explanation I hadn't really thought about. They could have kept individual part production (whether internal or outsourced) operating too long to the point they have way more excess part inventory than they think they can carry on the books in the short-term so this is a way to clear it out sooner. Case in point of seeing the forest instead of the trees (I was viewing at the forest level when maybe it is the individual trees that are the problem). :)

[rollie]

Honda is a very smart company, i would be a huge mistake if they had that much extra inventory, i think the real reason is they just don't really care about 450 race quads. they probably design 100 of quads and bikes and get patent's on them that never actually make it to production.

Who is still actually making race quads? just yamaha and can am, right?

[chucked]

Did you know honda had so many left overs one year they relabled them a year newer, i believe it was 2009-2010

[madskrillz2]

Originally posted by chucked
Did you know honda had so many left overs one year they relabled them a year newer, i believe it was 2009-2010

I think a couple manufacturers did that.

[quad2xtreme]

yea, several manufacturers did relabel. The excuse of excess "whole" inventory is out the window with the production line making this white on white 2013 model.

It would appear the 450 supply may be dying. I hope not but it is down to Yammy and Can Am now.

[MX450]

Its all about money. It took them 3 years to sell off overstock from the 08s or 09s. There is ALOT to consider when producing a totally new bike. CNC machines and welders have to be programmed, dies for cases bearing carriers etc have to be made. Its easy to sit around and bash honda because they are not coming out with the lastest greatest thing but nobody realizes how much money it takes to produce these bikes. Hell it takes millions of dollars worth of machinery to make a plastic coke bottle we throw in the garbage every day.

If the bikes are not flying out of the dealers why spend all that money retooling for a brand new model?

[quad2xtreme]

gonna be a long time before I get a new one too. I have a 2007 stock motor with <5 hrs on it if/when my 2006 goes.

[woodsman250r]

Honda isn't going to dump millions into building a new machine that there will be little demand for. There are several factors, and the biggest is the state of the economy. Honda isn't going to manufacture a state of the art race quad that they will lose money on. They know that the 450r is a reliable, race tested machine that can still be competitive and is a great quad for weekend riders as well. You guys are quick to bash Honda, but take a look at some other companies. Suzuki cut production of their 450, KTM cut theirs, Yamaha's YFZ hasn't been completely redesigned, Same with Kawi. The price of new quads, and racing has pushed a lot of people away and the manufactures realize that. For example, the last hare scramble at my local track had just 10 quads compared to around 50 bikes. Just be happy that companies are still producing new 450 machines. Just think back to when your options for a sport quad was a Blaster, Raptor, Banshee, Honda 400ex or 300ex. Maybe we'll see another revival period down the road like we did in 2004-2005?

[quad2xtreme]

amazingly, not a single responder bashed Honda in this thread.

The only point was that Honda not rolling out a new model doesn't have to do with left over inventory at this point. They continue to manufacturer new units.

Basically everyone is pointing to the costs of switching over the manufacturing line and the fact that units aren't selling.

Obviously they'd sell a few more units if they came out with the latest and greatest but obviously they project it wouldn't be financially prudent given all the costs of getting the assembly line and parts manufacturing geared up. Revenue may go up but expenses will go up more thus the bottom line would be bad news.

So we are where we are until the economy turns around.

[woodsman250r]

Originally posted by quad2xtreme
amazingly, not a single responder bashed Honda in this thread.

The only point was that Honda not rolling out a new model doesn't have to do with left over inventory at this point. They continue to manufacturer new units.

Basically everyone is pointing to the costs of switching over the manufacturing line and the fact that units aren't selling.

Obviously they'd sell a few more units if they came out with the latest and greatest but obviously they project it wouldn't be financially prudent given all the costs of getting the assembly line and parts manufacturing geared up. Revenue may go up but expenses will go up more thus the bottom line would be bad news.

So we are where we are until the economy turns around.

Obviously you don't understand how economics work. They would dump millions of dollars into R&D for a product that would be released to a dying market. People aren't buying quads because they aren't the latest and greatest, its because people don't have the extra money for new toys in this economy. Latest and greatest also means more $$$ to make up for $$$ invested. I help out at a bike shop some weekends and people want cheap parts to fix their old junk. I see way more 2002-2008 bikes at the races than "latest and greatest 2012 models."

[FHKracingZ]

Originally posted by woodsman250r
Obviously you don't understand how economics work. They would dump millions of dollars into R&D for a product that would be released to a dying market. People aren't buying quads because they aren't the latest and greatest, its because people don't have the extra money for new toys in this economy. Latest and greatest also means more $$$ to make up for $$$ invested. I help out at a bike shop some weekends and people want cheap parts to fix their old junk. I see way more 2002-2008 bikes at the races than "latest and greatest 2012 models."

From the people in the industry, they say this bike has been done since the 2010-11 time. If you all really think honda has not prototyped or have another bike ready to be released since 2006 your nuts. Honda is not dumb.

[quad2xtreme]

Although many folks don't have money for a new quad, other do. Don't you think if Honda released a new model that Sales #s would increase over the current model? You bet they would. There are people sitting on their old units simply because there isn't enough reason to upgrade. If you go back and read, you will note I didn't say profits would increase. The real economics is that Sales $$$ (revenue) wouldn't increase enough to cover the costs of ramping up that production line. Has nothing to do with R&D costs. These costs are already in the books.

[Fred55]

RD costs are nothing compared to retooling and product launching costs. Even though sales woud likely increase over today, the payback would not even start to cover those costs for years in this economy and by that time, you will be ready for a new design.

Fact is, until sport quad sales pick up again to 2003/2004 levels, I doubt you would see a new design too soon.

[quad2xtreme]

Originally posted by Fred55
RD costs are nothing compared to retooling and product launching costs. Even though sales woud likely increase over today, the payback would not even start to cover those costs for years in this economy and by that time, you will be ready for a new design.

Fact is, until sport quad sales pick up again to 2003/2004 levels, I doubt you would see a new design too soon.

100% agree.

I actually set product pricing for my company. We provide computer hosting services on big government contracts. I have developed some crazy arse pricing models that several years later when the government auditor was reviewing, I couldn't even remember how I put it together. I've learned to document and take notes along the way. Now, they see all my notes and think I have my act together. I don't even get bothered now...except I've had the government take ownership of my work and give to competing vendors. Technically, they own my efforts so there isn't much that can be done about it.

[KKiowaTJ]

You said it yourself in the above post. Why would they release a newer model when the current one still kicks the chit out of the others. When they start getting poor results and finishes, left in the dust, They will pull out their new power house. But fact is they still make the most aggressive bikes and quads on the track stock or modded.

That and the fact most people who buy quads want it to suit them and i still prefer to build my own. I know what I want and how to get it there. Cannondale tried and failed, KTM was no hot ticket except their over priced everything and the "i have a mx ready quad" that IMO needed better parts new. Honda has always been one step ahead and always will be.

They make generators, Lawn mowers, Boat motors, weed eaters, etc the list goes on. Funny thing is, Alot of their parts interchange with each other. So any NOS they have, Can be re-boxed and sold when/where needed as needed.

[honda400ex2003]

Even though i agree with the economics of making a new machine and support the info above, i have all but thrown in the towel on honda.

after many many many years as a honda rider and sworn by honda for all of my summer time off road vehicles... i have finally lost enough hope in them to not be loyal any more. i wont be buying any new machines from honda any more unless they come out with something that will truely be a forerunner and have options that make it worth the money I pay for it.

I will keep my 400ex and 250r along with finding a stock 400ex and a stock 08 450er for collectors items. that will be the last of my sport machines from not only honda, but probably any manufacturer of sport machines.

the only option from honda that i would consider now for myself would be a rincon and for a gf or a wife, a rancher.

the problem with these two machines is that even though they are reliable, companies like can am are both reliable and at the head of the pack.

I have ridden doos in the winter for a long time, its time for a can am next. my days of anything but the listed machines above are over in regards to a new one.

just my thoughts i guess...

disappointed and disgusted,
steve

[Quinn4]

The problem I have with Honda is that they have all the parts in place to make a competitive 450, the efi crf 450 motor has been sitting there for years. Even without going to an aluminum frame, if they stuffed the crf motor in the old frame and threw on a wider axle and a-arms they would sell a hell f a lot more units with minimal costs. If average joes are doing this in their garages why can't Honda?
Hell can-am makes 3 different 450's and is backing the sport harder than anyone.
Sorry Honda guys you are being taken for granted.
I still love Honda's beltless 4x4's tho.
Companies like Yamaha and can-am are building huge customer loyalty right now, riders are going to remember who kept pushing ahead in the tough times and who ran and hid.

[Ruby Soho]

regardless of a crazy new quad or not, look at the hondas we already have.

250r, legendary, how do you beat it?

400ex, also legendary, how do you beat it?

450r, again, legendary, how do you beat it?


they dont have to keep up with the jones. the entire time the 250r (and 10 years+after) was in production it was the top choice.

when the 400ex came out and even today its a top choice for people, its a great quad and so what if its technology isnt crazy, its still a good reliable fun machine

and the 450r is the same.

hate on honda all you want but they have an outstanding track record compared to the other companies.

[Quinn4]

Those quads were great in their day but that time has passed, I love Honda's had a 300ex since 93. But to ask 8k for a quad that hasn't changed in almost a decade is a joke. I mean the crf motor is probably 6 ft away from the Trx motor in the factory LOL.

[Quinn4]

To answer your questions I beat a 250r with any modern 450 ,I beat a 400ex with a z400 or a lower priced yfz 450(the new, old one just released) and I beat a trx450r with a ds450,yfz450 or kfx450. Stock vs stock any of those machines beat a trx.
Not trying to start a my quad is better than your quad but I'm going strictly off of technology.

[Ruby Soho]

Originally posted by Quinn4
To answer your questions I beat a 250r with any modern 450 ,I beat a 400ex with a z400 or a lower priced yfz 450(the new, old one just released) and I beat a trx450r with a ds450,yfz450 or kfx450. Stock vs stock any of those machines beat a trx.
Not trying to start a my quad is better than your quad but I'm going strictly off of technology.

i didnt mean beat as in race. thats a different argument, because most good guys could smoke an average joe like myself on a 400ex.

what i meant was, the quads were such bullet proof rides, reliable, powerful (especially at the time they were top dogs).

take your average backyard racer. 9/10 times a racer is going to do his suspension, cosmetics to personalize it, and engine work to personalize and make the power he wants. you will do that to any quad you buy. whats the difference if a kfx450 has better suspension stock? if your racing it chances are you've got a full blown set up on it.

so the 450r doesnt need to be updated, now atleast. its got alot of time.

the 400ex is the same thing, if you want to buy a quad and leave it stock, maybe you might want a z400 so you can beat the other 400exs, but most people i know and see on here are modifying them anyways, so again whats the difference it all gets changed anyways.

[madskrillz2]

Originally posted by Ruby Soho
i didnt mean beat as in race. thats a different argument, because most good guys could smoke an average joe like myself on a 400ex.

what i meant was, the quads were such bullet proof rides, reliable, powerful (especially at the time they were top dogs).

take your average backyard racer. 9/10 times a racer is going to do his suspension, cosmetics to personalize it, and engine work to personalize and make the power he wants. you will do that to any quad you buy. whats the difference if a kfx450 has better suspension stock? if your racing it chances are you've got a full blown set up on it.

so the 450r doesnt need to be updated, now atleast. its got alot of time.

the 400ex is the same thing, if you want to buy a quad and leave it stock, maybe you might want a z400 so you can beat the other 400exs, but most people i know and see on here are modifying them anyways, so again whats the difference it all gets changed anyways.

I agree with you on the 250r and 400ex being legendary. They pretty much broke the mold on a lot of things. I don't see that with the 450r. I don't really think any of the 450's really stand out as legendary yet. I would say the Yamaha because they were the first to step up and make one but they weren't the most reliable things in the world either.

[Quinn4]

I agree with all your points...if I was buying used, the problem with Honda is how can they charge 7500+ for that old technology. A ds450xmx is ready to race off the showroom floor. It may be 9k but you couldn't even get a arms and shocks for the 1500 you save.
I don't buy all the economy stuff past a certain point. Look at all the specialty quads can am makes outlanders renegades ds450 3 types of each! Your telling me honda can't find an extended axle and a set of a arms to make the trx mx ready. And the crf motor basically bolts in. How much easier could it be?! They have everything there to do it brp had to start from scratch.
I love Honda's reliability but they don't care about us. Yamaha and can am are going full speed ahead.

[CJM]

Personally speaking, I wish honda would take the crf motor and put it in the 450. They could easily keep the same frames and modify them slightly and most other things could bolt right up. Its already being done with the hybrids so why they cant do it production baffles me.

[madskrillz2]

Originally posted by CJM
Personally speaking, I wish honda would take the crf motor and put it in the 450. They could easily keep the same frames and modify them slightly and most other things could bolt right up. Its already being done with the hybrids so why they cant do it production baffles me.

I guess it all boils down to "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" type of deal. They might feel whatever improvements they have in the works wouldn't boost sales enough to be worth it.

[CJM]

Originally posted by madskrillz2
I guess it all boils down to "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" type of deal. They might feel whatever improvements they have in the works wouldn't boost sales enough to be worth it.

I suppose so. Im sure there is a heck of alot of cost behind changing something that drastic. Right now with the economy in the crapper and people not buying new anything it seems-might not be worth it in their eyes to bother.

Tell you the truth, where I ride theres a mix of alot of different quads. But most arent on new machines.

[woodsman250r]

Until the economy bounces back, quad racing picks up, new quad friendly tracks open, people have money for toys, and the current 450r becomes a complete obsolete piece of machinery, you aren't going to see Honda release a newly designed 450r. I would say 1 out of every 50 people that rides a sport quad would go out and buy one right now even if they did. Point being, "latest and greatest" equals more $$$. And $$$ is what people do not have to throw at a quad right now.

[Quinn4]

I agree with people not having a lot of disposable income, however I can't see why Honda a much wealthier corporation than brp can't afford to throw an extended axle, a-arms and maybe some other goodies like skid plates or handgaurds. A new quad wouldnt be needed just update the current trx, like yamaha did. Those items would cost virtually nothing to a company like Honda and the buzz it would generate alone would make it worthwhile.

[Kawie450r]

Originally posted by Quinn4
I agree with people not having a lot of disposable income, however I can't see why Honda a much wealthier corporation than brp can't afford to throw an extended axle, a-arms and maybe some other goodies like skid plates or handgaurds. A new quad wouldnt be needed just update the current trx, like yamaha did. Those items would cost virtually nothing to a company like Honda and the buzz it would generate alone would make it worthwhile.

Yamaha didnt really update the yfz they made a whole new quad...the yfzr and yfzx and they brought back the regular carbed yfz with crappier parts on it.

[Quinn4]

Sorry I shoulda clarified, aren't the yfzx and r basically the same quad just with a different width? Id be happy if honda widened it out and threw some skid plates on it. I didn't mean to refer to the new carbed yfz.

[Kawie450r]

Originally posted by Quinn4
Sorry I shoulda clarified, aren't the yfzx and r basically the same quad just with a different width? Id be happy if honda widened it out and threw some skid plates on it. I didn't mean to refer to the new carbed yfz.

Oh i gotcha. Ya just width difference.

[Langbolt]

I thought i'd look into seeing if HONDA is interested in hearin what y'all are sayin.....so I went here:

http://powersports.honda.com/contact.aspx

They don't even have an E-mail address ????

They want us to MAIL them a letter with our questions & concerns

:mad: