Oh Great

[440ex. ehhh!!]

Long story short, Its a relatively new motor, and i have 4 races on it.
I was just out riding around taking it easy compared to my races.
I was going full throttle, pulled in the clutch, and hit the front and rear brakes. Came to a stop and the motor died.

When I got off I looked under and there was oil everywhere!! :(
It exploded out of the vent hose and got over everything. After this the motor would not start at all.
I do not hear any noises when cranking it over either.

When I got home I found out that oil squirts out of this vent when it gets cranked over...

http://i987.photobucket.com/albums/ae357/josh440ex/Quad%20work/2012-06-24170703.jpg

The vent filter is connected to a few different vent lines.

What is my problem here???????
Thanks Guys!
I guess I'm not racing this Friday.

Pics
I had only been riding for 10-15 minutes so most of everything you see in these pictures is oil, not dirt. :s
http://i987.photobucket.com/albums/ae357/josh440ex/Quad%20work/2012-06-24170651.jpg
http://i987.photobucket.com/albums/ae357/josh440ex/Quad%20work/2012-06-24170641.jpg

[01boneless]

could be 1 of a few things, could have bad blow by but if the motor is new it shouldnt unless something blew up inside, did u over fill the oil? the tranny oil and engine oil could be mixing due to a bad seal. check the tranny oil, also pull the oil filter and cut it open to check for shavings.

[310ESR]

I just pulled an engine down that did the same thing. I found nothing wrong but I am changing the oil pressure relief valve. I have read other articles that point to that even if you take it apart and clean it. It's cheap and easy.

[440ex. ehhh!!]

Oksy I hope it's an easy fix. I've never cut a filter before, what type of saw should I use, would I need to use a hack saw since there is metal inside it? But how do I know if the metal shavings are from cutting the inside of the filter or from the motor???

[310ESR]

Cut the filter with shers or just cut the element not the steel

[01boneless]

no you just cut the paper off go around it with a razor blade and it will come off then you can check the groves for metal shavings ill cut one and get you a picture this afternoon

[440ex. ehhh!!]

Okay thanks. Hopefully I can get to that tonight

[440ex. ehhh!!]

there are a few metal flakes. also found whaty i think is aluminum because it does not sparkle in the sun. Could it be the piston? It is 13.5:1 and only running on 100 octane right now....

no flakes in the oil. only pulled 0.45 L out of the engine side

[440ex. ehhh!!]

Pulled out almost 0.85 L of oil from the tranny :s
Along with the bolt, came a lot of metal pieces too. I'm assuming it is a magnetic bolt....
I will post pictures when i Get a chance, but theres definitely something wrong with the amount of metal that came out. I thought at first it was the threads coming out but the threads are fine.

[01boneless]

could be anthing really, clyinder, piston ect... but its definitly got blow by

[440ex. ehhh!!]

So just start pulling the motor apart then???

[quad71]

Do a leak test.

[440ex. ehhh!!]

I am just waiting to borrow the tool.
Turns out the amount of metal in the tranny side was only from a few missed gears. I had never seen it in the oil before so i thought it was a lot worse then it was.
Dad says it's nothing to worry about.
I took the valve cover off and everything looks fine.
We thought the chain may have come off or broke one of the chain guides but they are still good and so is the spark plug.

So at this point I have no idea.

310ESR let me know if that pressure relief valve fixes your problem!

Thanks

[440ex. ehhh!!]

The spark is very weak.

Could it have something to do with the flywheel breaking or something which is allowing oil to transfer between sides and messing up with the wiring which is not allowing it to start???

[01boneless]

are you sure you dident overfill the oil?

[440ex. ehhh!!]

Yes I am 100% sure. I took the bolt out of tranny side and didn't put it back in until the excess oil stopped coming out, and the oil was in the perfect range in the window. Just like always.

Even if I over filled it, how does that explain the proper amount of oil being switched from motor to tranny side?

[440ex. ehhh!!]

Leak down test shows 100% leak :s
Dad is bringing home his compression tester tomorrow to see what that reveals.

I am assuming there is a hole in the piston or the rings blew :(

Whats everyone think?

[01boneless]

not cool. im guessing it will have very little compression

[440ex. ehhh!!]

I think that may be the cause of the oil shooting through the vent....all the compression from the cylinder went straight into the cases.

Any other ideas?

[440ex. ehhh!!]

Just what i thought, it has 0 compression.

Hopefully tomorrow I will be able to tear it apart.
I hope it is just the piston.

[buddy willard]

probably running lean and burned hole in piston.

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by 440ex. ehhh!!
Just what i thought, it has 0 compression.

Hopefully tomorrow I will be able to tear it apart.
I hope it is just the piston. just my opinion... anytime. i find something like this, I always split the cases,for a couple reasons,

first to make sure everything else is still good and in spec,

and second is just to clean all the metal out of the crankcase, no amount of flushing will get all metal out of bearings and oil passages for me to full trust the new build,

also its a good time to replace all the seals, and more then likely your M3 gear dogs will be rounded off by now, and it wouldnt hurt putting in a new cam chain, im sure its showing its age,

basically the thing im saying its never really just the piston, its all in how in depth you want to go, I can almost guarantee you could find more to replace thats going to give you a better quality and reliable motor.... again thats just my way of looking at a tear down, not as a catastrophe but as an opportunity to make it better

[440ex. ehhh!!]

Okay thanks.
It has a brand new cam chain. It was done when the head was done

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by 440ex. ehhh!!
Okay thanks.
It has a brand new cam chain. It was done when the head was done still check it for any sticking or wear,

if its been ran its been used, check everything you touch rebuild it right once, and get many hours of trouble free riding,

dont short cut it during rebuilds, im sure youve seen many threads of "just rebuilt but still having problems"

its because shortcuts were taken and things were missed.. it cost much less to do it right the first time then doing it twice

as I said earlier look at this as an opportunity to make it better, not just to fix whats broken... these motors are real simple, Honda made them easy to work on, just use the right tools and you will have no problems dismantling the entire engine, and inspecting every part, and measuring for wear, it will be well worth it in the long run.. good luck and look at this in a positive way

[440ex. ehhh!!]

We found what looks to be a piece of a cam chain in the bottom of the motor, I inspected both sides of the chain and it is good, so I am thinking it was from the old chain which was replaced because it was cracked they say.

I'm still looking for the time to take it apart.
Do I need a special tool to remove the flywheel?

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by 440ex. ehhh!!
We found what looks to be a piece of a cam chain in the bottom of the motor, I inspected both sides of the chain and it is good, so I am thinking it was from the old chain which was replaced because it was cracked they say.

I'm still looking for the time to take it apart.
Do I need a special tool to remove the flywheel? ya get the one with the threaded cap to go over the crankshaft , the one with out the threaded cap will sometimes mushroom the threads,
find someone who will let you borrow a micrometer or caliper,

and a handy tool is a tusk crank puller, plus a tusk clutch holder, that doubles as a flywheel holder, and a torque wrench, try to borrow these but if you need them and cant find someone to let you use them , you will benefit greatly in purchasing them...

tools are an investment in your quad,even if you have to buy all the tools its still cheaper then paying the dealer

[440ex. ehhh!!]

I have a micrometer.
I am not too worried as I replaced the clutch in my 05 without the tool with no problems.

Are there any tricks to removing the flywheel without that tool?

[xcracer416]

Originally posted by 440ex. ehhh!!

Are there any tricks to removing the flywheel without that tool?



in my opinion that is a bad question. not a good idea to beat on it or pry it off. the magnet inside might get messed up, and prying on it you might break a piece of the case.

i bought one from RMATV for about 30+ shipping.

i havent used mine but once and it was well worth the money.

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by 440ex. ehhh!!
I have a micrometer.
I am not too worried as I replaced the clutch in my 05 without the tool with no problems.

Are there any tricks to removing the flywheel without that tool? the clutch holder isn't for the clutch, it helps to remove the idle gears, and tighten up the flywheel when done, an air wrench will also work well,if you dont have air tools then get a holder,
but as far as the flywheel good luck, you need a puller

i guess I just like to make the job easier, with the right tool for the job, i make a living with tools and have learned along time ago, that there really is no substitute for the proper tool,

if your not going to use the right tools just be careful you dont break the cases, use a press or a puller not a hammer,if your doing any bearings,

be careful and good luck, but I strongly recomend purchasing some specialty tools, I promise you will be glad you did, or wish you did

[440ex. ehhh!!]

The Bearings will be pressed in yes.

I will likely borrow the tool from the local Honda mechanic then.

As it sits right now.
http://i987.photobucket.com/albums/ae357/josh440ex/Quad%20work/2012-07-03201457.jpg

[440ex. ehhh!!]

Need help here guys.

Head and cylinder are off.

There is no hole in the piston. No burn marks from it bypassing the rings either.

There seems to be only 1 combustion ring and 1 oil ring. I thought there would be at least 2 combustion rings. The 1 comb. ring that is on there is also very tight, so much so, that it would not need to be pressed in at all to fit the piston into the cylinder.... there is 0 play in the ring.

Sprayed brake cleaner in the intake and exhaust ports and nothing came through the valves.

Cylinder has no scoring in it and looks fine.

Finally, I noticed that I was able to twist the piston in a way...like you can see the rod twisting on the crank. The piston also has some play at the rod. There was no knocking noise when it ran...

So I have no idea how air was able to come out the exhaust when I did the leak down test when the valve lifter was not even touching the exhaust valves.


Thanks guys,

Josh

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by 440ex. ehhh!!
Need help here guys.

Head and cylinder are off.

There is no hole in the piston. No burn marks from it bypassing the rings either.

There seems to be only 1 combustion ring and 1 oil ring. I thought there would be at least 2 combustion rings. The 1 comb. ring that is on there is also very tight, so much so, that it would not need to be pressed in at all to fit the piston into the cylinder.... there is 0 play in the ring.

Sprayed brake cleaner in the intake and exhaust ports and nothing came through the valves.

Cylinder has no scoring in it and looks fine.

Finally, I noticed that I was able to twist the piston in a way...like you can see the rod twisting on the crank. The piston also has some play at the rod. There was no knocking noise when it ran...

So I have no idea how air was able to come out the exhaust when I did the leak down test when the valve lifter was not even touching the exhaust valves.


Thanks guys,

Josh the thing that stands out is the rod twisting??

is there any up and down play? a little side play is fine but there should be NO play up and down

[440ex. ehhh!!]

Just checked...NO up and down play.
What about the 1 comb. ring? Is that normal for some companies ?

[01boneless]

Originally posted by DnB_racing
the thing that stands out is the rod twisting??

is there any up and down play? a little side play is fine but there should be NO play up and down
this^ check the crank play and go ahead and put new rings in if there tight or not.

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by 440ex. ehhh!!
Just checked...NO up and down play.
What about the 1 comb. ring? Is that normal for some companies ? ya Ive installed many one combustion ringed pistons, Baldwin, has some and wiseco do, cp has some as well..

it only has one combustion groove right?

[440ex. ehhh!!]

Okay.
It's a tough call, looks like another groove there but not enough to have another ring there.
I was told it was a J.E. piston I'm pretty sure



Edit: He says it is a CP piston and supposed to have 1 comb. ring

[440ex. ehhh!!]

So if it turns out the ring is no good, it explains why the seal blew and all the compression got into the cases, but still does not explain why in the leak down test, the air was escaping through the exhaust

[440ex. ehhh!!]

With the piston in the cylinder, there is 0.03" clearance with no rings, There is supposed to be 0.003"
I may have an extra zero in each of those, I'm not sure, I was not the one to take these readings.

What could cause there to be too little clearance?

It has turned out to be a JE piston also.

[punk rock kiel]

i have a JE 2ring paper weight pistion on my desk. from what i recall most atv pistons carry from .003-.007 (higher side is 2 stroke). the pistion shouldnt have any "rock" in the cylinder. it shouldnt fall in the hole, so if you got too much clearance, you got too much clearance. i would bet if you used the micrometer and measured the very bottom of the skirt that its gonna be rounded a little bit. also measure the piston about the same area as the wrist pin.
measure the cylinder in a few spots also, veryneers will get you close enough measurements for that.

[440ex. ehhh!!]

So i had the motor rebuilt by honda mechanic. I was just too busy to do on my own.
In total he charged me $300 for crank bearings and the extra gaskets the kit did not come with. This is including labor.

Now the thing just wont start!
valves are perfectly in spec.
crank was aligned at TDC when i did the timing, however...no matter how many times i try, the timing marks on the cam always seem to be half a tooth above, or below the mark.
I also put a screw driver down the plug hole to make sure the piston was actually at TDC.

It just keeps cranking and cranking and cranking. It fired once for about 3 seconds and that was it.

Are there some gears inside the motor that could be mixed up or something cause the timing to be off just the slightest bit?

[Baileygunns]

Josh... Take that thing back to the guy who just rebuilt it and let him worry about it. If you paid him to rebuild a motor it should run when he's done.

[d3ktrix]

If u dont have the timing chain tensioner in when ur checking ur timing, the slop in the chain can make the timing look weird.

Also u said before u had a weak spark, is that fixed?
And u said u had metal shavings, did u check in the stator cover where the magnet is to see if there was savings stuck to it? That can kill spark.

[440ex. ehhh!!]

Tensioner was in when we checked
And cases were completely cleaned out
As for the spark, it still seems weak compared to a car spark.

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by 440ex. ehhh!!
Tensioner was in when we checked
And cases were completely cleaned out
As for the spark, it still seems weak compared to a car spark. could be time for a new cam chain and chain guides,

are you sure the tension is self adjusting properly?

and after saying all this, its kinda common for the lines to not line up exact, slight tolerance differences, added up from a thinner head gasket,new cylinder,to the woodruff key, to flywheel, to crank, to gear, to chain, to cam, to marks, any combination coupled with a worn out and loose chain or a tight bound chain can cause this, the real only way to be sure it is timed exact is to dial it and degree it in with a dial indicator and degree wheel and a adjustable cam gear and a TDC indicator

i always degree mine in, perform a squish test,leak down and compression test before i fire mine up after any top end tear down

[440ex. ehhh!!]

The cam chain has maybe 10 hours on it.
As for the tensioner...there is a spacer type thing that bolts to the case with it and not sure what it is....not stock

[eastside 400]

that spacer is normal, the 06+ bikes all use that style tensioner...what did you end up replacing when it was "rebuilt"?

[d3ktrix]

Yup the 06+ always have the big spacer.

[440ex. ehhh!!]

Complete gasket set, it was supposed to include every thing needed to completely rebuild top and bottom end, but for some reason did not come with the seal i needed to separate the two sides of the motor..so the mechanic ordered that seal himself.
New rings
New crank bearings.

He only had the bottom end, so I replaced everything in the top end except for the exhaust ring, I could not get that thing out no matter what i tried.

[d3ktrix]

The cam lobes pointing to the back of the quad and slightly up?
Just making sure u don't have the cam 180degrees out.

Did u check to make sure its getting fuel? Plug would be wet after cranking it for a while if its not firing.
fuel in the tank? lol never know :P

Did u check to make sure the stator trigger didnt have shavings on it ur self? or just assuming since the mechanic cleaned the cases that its clean?

turn the idle up?
battery have a good charge?

I'm sure uve checked all this stuff, just throwing ideas out there. Who knows maybe in thinking so deep u over looked something super simple :P

gl

[d3ktrix]

And are u using either the crank mark or flywheel mark to put the piston at TDC?
Not just going by when the piston is at it highest point right?

Sounds insulting that I ask I know but Ive seen people try it -_-

[440ex. ehhh!!]

Yes did all this.
Completely soaked 2 plugs with fuel.
Killed the battery and used a car battery, but still nothing....

[eastside 400]

cam flange might have spun on the cam. unless you have a degree wheel and some decent knowledge of degreeing cams, its going to be hard to check that. if you have another cam to swap in to try....With all the problems you had with this motor, why did you only put rings on the piston, pistons are cheap. Re-ringing a piston is fine, but if you have a failure or problem then i would never run that same piston just with new rings. pistons and pins wear as much as the rings do.

What exhaust ring are you talking about that you couldnt get out? Also have you done a leakdown or compression test since the rebuild?

[440ex. ehhh!!]

Friend of ours has a 700 Volkswagon and coated the pistons in a material which had to be baked on.
He did this to my piston to lessen the gap to the correct spec.

The pin may have been replaced also, I can't rmember. Some stuff I did, some the mechanic did.
Stupid answer.... I know.:ermm:


The ring that seals the head pipe to the head itself.

I never thought of doing, that, Ill do that when i get a chance.

[440ex. ehhh!!]

Turns out the ignition timing was off. With the crank at TDC the T mark on the ignition timing was right on, but that wasn't when the spark plug was firing.
Rotated the cam 180 and it fired up faster than it ever has before.

Oh, and i put in a 12.5:1 wiseco kit along with new top end gaskets.

[d3ktrix]

Glad u got it figured out!

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by 440ex. ehhh!!
Turns out the ignition timing was off. With the crank at TDC the T mark on the ignition timing was right on, but that wasn't when the spark plug was firing.
Rotated the cam 180 and it fired up faster than it ever has before.

Oh, and i put in a 12.5:1 wiseco kit along with new top end gaskets. im glad you got it to run but your diagnosis is wrong,
here is some info to help you understand how the 4 stroke top end relates to the bottom end

if the cam lobes were facing right and it was at TDC and at the T line then it was right...

in other words you cant have it 180 out... impossible!! unless lobes were facing forward then it would really be out 90 deg not 180,,

the flywheel and stator produce a spark every turn, exact same spark at the cam 180 or 360,

the only thing that makes the top end be a 4 stroke is the cam gear is twice the size of the crank gear..

in other words at 180 off its still on the marks and will run just the same as 360,

if of 90 deg or 270 deg then it wont run but things wont be aligned right and it will be obvious

I would be more inclined to believe instead of the T line you used the F line the first time..
because as I said being out 180 isn't being out, there is no exhaust stroke or compression stroke on the flywheel,

only once you add the cam does it become 4 strokes, the bottom end could care less about how many stokes it is, it sparks the same every revolution

[ghott]

Yup ^^^^

Good reading: http://www.garyhott.com/timing.html