ok esr what a joke

[265 sleeper]

Ok I been on here a while posting some of my problems I been having and my build on getting it right. Well I put it together from the last time on here . Well I put maybe 2 hours on her . I had en her in the monster truck show for lafayette. Had a blast bike ran good. No problems . I went to work to show the guys my bike warmed her up ran her around the area. Pull up and talked with the head machanic he noticed some thing dripping . I look at my over flow tube pointing at my face to warn me for head problems and she was dribling out like slowly. I was like darn blown oring I just put her together wtf . Ok so I bring her home take the head off and noticed oring fine . Looked even harder and noticed how the sleeved dropped. Ok so I brought it to a known 250r guru in my area also a good friend now. The first thing he said wow your sleeved dropped just what I had thought before I brought it to him. So I call esr send them the cylinder they get it they tell me this.


Tom: yea I had "eddie" look at it and said that's how all the 310 come. And nothing wrong with it.

Me : really so your 330 don't come like that their flush on deck height .

Tom: yea Eddie looked at it and said nothing wrong with it . He didn't go through it but just looked at it.

Me : ok so all the cylinders I delt with that are flat on deck height aren't done for a reason. It a clearance issue tom it so the can seal properly.

Tom: Idk but Eddie said thats how all 310 come.

Me: pro x cylinders aren't like that. My 310 stock cylinder not like that. My stock cylinders not like that .

Tom: well ima have Eddie check over it again ill call you back 5 work days later .

So I call him and he said well Eddie not here he left already. Ok ill call back tomorrow . I didn't have time till today. They said nothing wrong with but they will deck the cylinder from the sleeve on out. I was trying to push for a deal like send me another cylinder and ill pay a lil for it. So they said just the cylinder kit no head or water jacket. 330 I'm like better off buying a hole kit . I agree just deck it . Hung up. I start looking at my build pics from when I got the cylinder and when I had last built it and you can see the sleeve how it dropped. I called them back now mad for just sheer Lieing about the sleeve dropping . I said ether warrenty out the cylinder or just send it back and ima buy a pro x cylinder tom said well ill talk to Eddie and call you back tomorrow.. there I vented what do yall think.

[sangheraent]

sounds like lazyness to me. Probably didn't even look at the cylinder just says that's how they are.

have any pictures?

[265 sleeper]

Trying to get bobizzle to post them I don't have a computer

[bobizzle]

sorry to take so long to post pictures. the first is new cylinder, exhaust facing down.

[bobizzle]

this is second picture. exhaust is on right side.

[265 sleeper]

Ok esr does not hold true to the saying that every customers a happy customer sleeved dropped they said the port work was crap and that the bore was not straight. And nothing wrong with the cylinder. Do not ever buy a esr cylinder ever again they're crooks. I got a 500 dollar paper weight now plus pistons I spent on the sleeve dropping

[Motofool250r]

they make some nice dress up parts!

but their motor building skills are lack luster

[k7mm]

I cannot see in the second picture that the sleeve is dropped???It looks like in the first picture,that the sleeve is a little low,like you could catch a finger nail on it.Bottom line,the only way you could or can truely tell if the sleeve has dropped is,if in the port chambers there is a difference.They port match the chambers smooth from steel to aluminum.So if it is still smooth in the chambers,then they port matched the cylinder with the sleeve a little low.Also,I do not see how you got that your sleeve dropped, just because your bike over heated and coolant was dripping out of the overflow.If your head o-ring went bad or anything to do with your sleeve,then you would be blowing super white smoke out of the exhaust.
Keith

[Motofool250r]

how much is it lower then the aluminum deck of the cylinder? not the groove the inside area of the sleeve

[87TRX310R]

I would like to see a picture of when you first took it apart for comparison and what is that white crap in the second picture.

[aztecgwynn]

I agree wit k7mm really can't tell from that pic.
But the way I see it you weren't the only one with issues with those ESR cylinders. Again I thank myself every time I look at TRX 250R I didn't buy one or else I also would be a disappointed customer.
But besides the cylinders ESR makes the rest can't be said about the other ESR products especially their pipes and they are second to no one.
I hope Tom and especially Eddie fix those issues with you, but most of all these continuous problems ESR is having with these cylinders. Why don't they pull those cylinders off their shelves? By the time Eddie figures this out it will be too late he is going to piss way too many people off and no one is going to buy from ESR because of a bad reputation from those cylinders. And one more 250r source will be gone, I hope Eddie figures this out soon.

[265 sleeper]

Originally posted by 87TRX310R
I would like to see a picture of when you first took it apart for comparison and what is that white crap in the second picture. the white crap is lithium grease . I was checking my cc after I got my squish set. Which was .068 squish and 26.5 cc to run half and half. . The pics don't show it well. when they send me my paper weight back ill take more pics. The first pic was when I was cutting my ports. Notice the magic marker on the piston. They do have the better pipes out there but customer service sucks and cylinders as well

[etccb]

There are a ton of these cyl out there that have had zero problems. They have changed pistons around november december, had some ex stud threads tapped into water jackets but so has the prox. I believe they will make tweaks along the way if needed. Really the early history of the prox is a LOT worse. They have become an easy target on forums now days with each problem that they do have being repeated in 5000 posts. If they did something wrong or had a problem with this cyl is one thing but a lot of times a finger is pointed at them when someone makes an error on their own. There are some good questions in this thread to help identify this problem be it the cyl itself or something else. Be open minded and lets not convict them as guilty first.

[Grande Huevos]

Originally posted by etccb
There are a ton of these cyl out there that have had zero problems. They have changed pistons around november december, had some ex stud threads tapped into water jackets but so has the prox. I believe they will make tweaks along the way if needed. Really the early history of the prox is a LOT worse. They have become an easy target on forums now days with each problem that they do have being repeated in 5000 posts. If they did something wrong or had a problem with this cyl is one thing but a lot of times a finger is pointed at them when someone makes an error on their own. There are some good questions in this thread to help identify this problem be it the cyl itself or something else. Be open minded and lets not convict them as guilty first.

I would agree there are tons of these cylinders out there with zero problems what so ever. I personally know a few people with them me being one and they are solid and run top notch! when I purchased mine the o ring in the water neck was pinched from esr and caused a minor leak. I spoke with Eddie directly and he fixed the "problem" and sent me a free kick starter and brake lever without me even asking. I say his customer service is great! Also Im sure Eddie has ported hundreds if not thousands of cylinders so if he tells you your port work looks like crap then it prob is.........if I remember correctly didnt you and your friend try to port your cylinder yourself? :ermm:

[Motofool250r]

eddies personal hand port work is not bad, its the as machined or cnc trx7 or trx9 as they call it that is lack luster.

[87TRX310R]

Thats true I once had a prox cylinder that developed hairline cracks at the base where it bolts down. Now I have another prox with zero problems also have a few ESR cylinders new style and old style with no problems. Nothings perfect which is why companies rely on feedback to further improve there product.

[aztecgwynn]

Boys can't argue that there has been a ton of those cylinders sold. But the fact is these issues keep coming up with these cylinders. And how about the others that have not posted anything about their challenges or issues with their ESR cylinders.
There are so many guys out there that don't even know there are forums for our TRX 250R. I hope you guys out there fix your situations with those ESR cylinders because not all of us have unlimited funds to keep pouring into these bikes, I know I don't.

[265 sleeper]

But the fact is these issues keep coming up with these cylinders. And how about the others that have not posted anything about their challenges or issues with their ESR cylinders. I hope you guys out there fix your situations with those ESR cylinders because not all of us have unlimited funds to keep pouring into these bikes, I know I don't. [/B] agreed yes i didnt atempt i succeeded the guy helping me with the port timngs looked at my whole motor before i sent it off to esr he said it wasnt the greatest did see some areas to open up but said looked fine. also they said my port timings were off for a stock bottoom end i was like not for a stroker their not i didnt touch my transfer heights only exhuast i running 192 duration when i was at .055 squish race dome as told by esr to set it at calulation made in the 17:5.1 ccr which some know is for alky not c12. thats running their gaskets and spacer plate .even running pump dome it was still lil over 15:1 to high for 93 octane . even for half&half

[265 sleeper]

its funny how they coudnt even tell it was ported for a stroker i ve told them it was in a previous conv .when i set my squish for half&half my port timing jumped up to 196 duration. that was accomplished by pump dome thicker spacer and another gasket.

[265 sleeper]

what error was made messed up porting and bore not even caused my sleeve to drop finger pionting at them cause the sleeve did drop and a person i know who races against the best even said it did i only brought it to him to confirm that what was wrong .now esr wants to say nothing wrong with the cylinder they just saying whats not wrong with her . before the sleeve dropped id race 450 heavly modded on c12 and would ether win by a bike or lose by a bike . if my porting was crap then i should have been dogged that was on c12 with a 17:5.1 ccr

[bobizzle]

one thing i can say about the porting is that is does not matter how beautiful you make it look, it depends on the performance of what is produced. i have a cylinder that the porting looks like a 10 year old took my porting toll and carved it to hell, but what i can say is that it runs like a bandit.

also, the sleeve on any cylinder should be the same height as the water jacket, by not doing this you will blow o-rings and it will never perform right. everything should be deck height for a good seal.

[JackBrown1988]

Me and the wife drive a truck cross country, as we drive into north ca in july, will file small claims for $750 bones. We had a horrible experience with esr, will not buy esr again. Will let every user know the crap esr sells. Cost my family more than $750 bones to get fixed.

[k7mm]

WOW!So pretty much it sounds like you bought a raw unfinished 310 cylinder and ported it yourself.No wonder why they said they would deck the cylinder for you,it"s probably because you failed to notice and have it done yourself.They probably figured that you knew what you were doing,and since you were doing the port work yourself and saving money,they never decked the cylinder perfectly smooth.I can clearly see in the first picture that the sleeve is a tad low.All the 310 cylinders sitting on there shelves probabaly do have the sleeves sitting a little low.You did'nt have them do any work to your cylinder,you bought a raw cylinder.Sorry that your sleeve is low,but I cannot see ESR mass producing cylinders,pressing the sleeves in perfectly,and decking everyone of them to get them ready for a sale.They may press the sleeves in and set them on the shelf until someone orders one.I really do'nt know?
You never confirmed that the port chambers were off.You just gave pictures of the top,that we ca'nt tell anything from.And it makes zero sense to me how you figured out that your sleeve had dropped,just from a few drips of coolant from your overflow tube???You could have been low on coolant.Who knows?
If these two pictures are what made you turn and blow up on ESR,I cannot see the problem in the pictures.They probably looked at the cylinder,and all of they port chambers lined up and thought you were crazy!That is probably why they said they would deck the cylinder for you,since the top was (a tad low),but you ported and port matched it that way,as far as I can see from the pictures.Why would they send you your cylinder back if the port chambers were not lined up.I believe they would have agreed the sleeve dropped!
Also you never confirmed that your o- ring became unsealed.It sounds like to me,you got a few drips of coolant from your overflow,and then started tearing your top end apart???
It does'nt make sense to me!
A few drips of coolant from the overflow tube and wow,ESR sucks!!!
For someone thats spitting off all of these port timing and sqish #'s,I would hope that they could be a little more clear on why thier sleeve dropped,than just a couple pictures from the top!
By the way,I do not run a ESR cylinder.I have zero reason to defend ESR.
Keith

[bobizzle]

hey k7mm, i see where you are coming from, but when he got the cylinder it should be decked already. if it was not decked already, then there would not be a groove in the water jacket for the o-ring. it was just a rough cast cylinder, ports were not fully clean, and needed to adjust port timings on cylinder setup.

also, i brought his bike to him at work one afternoon, he warmed it up like normal, and slowly went ride into the field being conscientious of slowly warming her up. he made a couple passes back and forth progressively riding a little harder each pass. he rode back toward us and had it idleing. his co worker looked down and seen coolant dribbling out at idle. he shut it down and we pushed it into the shop. went ahead and took off the head to see why it was acting like a blown head gasket. took off the head and the o-ring was visibly fine, not flattening, pinching, tearing or anything else. when you look down at the cylinder you could see blow by on the exhaust side where it was going past the sleeve 0-ring. looking at the sleeve, from the stud to the right of center on the exhaust side, the sleeve looked like it was lower allowing the blow by to happen.

i know it was full on coolant, head was torqued, and all maintenance was performed on this bike. i am a nazi and i make sure we do all preventive maintenance regularly. i went over everything before i left my house with his bike, due to the fact of knowing he was at work and would want to jump on it and ride.

hope this helps you with a little more info because i know 265 does not always explain himself in the most proficient manner.

[bobizzle]

Originally posted by JackBrown1988
Me and the wife drive a truck cross country, as we drive into north ca in july, will file small claims for $750 bones. We had a horrible experience with esr, will not buy esr again. Will let every user know the crap esr sells. Cost my family more than $750 bones to get fixed.

what exactly happened with esr, please share it. there was not much information from what you left.

[k7mm]

Thank you for more input.I am not sure what goes on with the decking after they press in the sleeve,but after I posted,I did wonder about the o-ring groove machined into the aluminum cylinder.Something may have been off when they pressed the sleeve in and did not want to take too much off of the aluminum when they decked and machined the top.They may have figured, it would seal up.Like I said before,in the first picture it looks like you could catch a finger nail on the sleeve.The second photo is hard to tell anything from.Honestly,it does'nt make any sense why they would not deck the top of the cylinder and sleeve perfectly smooth,but again,in the first photo it looks to not be perfect.I am not sure,but there may have been a problem from the begining and the exhaust finally made it through.
I just do not see how or why ESR would deny that the sleeve dropped if it really did.It does not take a rocket scientist to see if the ports are not aligned anymore.The cylinder probably just needs to be decked smooth and the problem will be solved.Nobody can say if they looked into the port chambers before the cylinder was sent back to ESR.If the sleeve did not drop,then the concentration needs to be placed on the sleeve being a little low and you getting blow by because of it.Now that should be on ESR.But then they probably think that 265 is crazy for thinking the sleeve dropped and then blowing up at them.
Keith
Originally posted by bobizzle
hey k7mm, i see where you are coming from, but when he got the cylinder it should be decked already. if it was not decked already, then there would not be a groove in the water jacket for the o-ring. it was just a rough cast cylinder, ports were not fully clean, and needed to adjust port timings on cylinder setup.

also, i brought his bike to him at work one afternoon, he warmed it up like normal, and slowly went ride into the field being conscientious of slowly warming her up. he made a couple passes back and forth progressively riding a little harder each pass. he rode back toward us and had it idleing. his co worker looked down and seen coolant dribbling out at idle. he shut it down and we pushed it into the shop. went ahead and took off the head to see why it was acting like a blown head gasket. took off the head and the o-ring was visibly fine, not flattening, pinching, tearing or anything else. when you look down at the cylinder you could see blow by on the exhaust side where it was going past the sleeve 0-ring. looking at the sleeve, from the stud to the right of center on the exhaust side, the sleeve looked like it was lower allowing the blow by to happen.

i know it was full on coolant, head was torqued, and all maintenance was performed on this bike. i am a nazi and i make sure we do all preventive maintenance regularly. i went over everything before i left my house with his bike, due to the fact of knowing he was at work and would want to jump on it and ride.

hope this helps you with a little more info because i know 265 does not always explain himself in the most proficient manner.

[265 sleeper]

Well Keith id like to think that esr didn't deck the cylinder but that's not the case . I had asked them when I got it what had to be done. And porting was it. They clamp from the inside of the sleeve in order to surface the deck and to put oring grooves. So for the cylinder being bored what you're claming is false. It was a bolt on and go cylinder. I just had to cut my port timings to match a stroker.

[k7mm]

Ok,so ESR admitted that all of thier 310 cylinders have the sleeve a little lower for some reason.Well that sounds like a defect to me if you are getting a bad seal on the sleeve 0-ring.But what you are claiming is that the sleeve dropped(is basically loose in the aluminum cylinder).If the sleeve really did drop,then you would be able to explain what you saw to lead you to send the cylinder back and think that it dropped.For somone that ported his own cylinder to not be able to say he looked into the port chamber to see the misalignment,well that is just plain sad.Maybe it was noticable enough from the top for you,but in the pictures it sure did'nt show.I know in the second picture there was a little more color,and maybe that made the nail grabber show up more to you.Like I said,it does'nt take a rocket scientist to be able to see a misalignment in a port matched cylinder.And you had or did the porting yourself?
I just do not think that it is right for you to claim that ESR is crooks,when it does'nt even sound like you know for sure or not if the sleeve dropped.If the sleeve had dropped,then you would have finger nail grabbers all though out your jug!Do you get it?
Well hopefully.
I know this ,ESR knows this,and everyone reading this know this.It is common sense.If you get the cylinder back and there is a bunch of nail grabbers because the sleeve had dropped,then more power to you for calling ESR crooks,but it does'nt sound like you checked.
Sorry that you are going through this!But to tell everyone on the 250R section to never buy from ESR when all you are going off of is bad pictures,is just plain wrong!
If it really did drop,then I am sorry,but nothing you said tells any of us that you thoroughly checked before you sent it back.
Keith

TE]Originally posted by 265 sleeper
Well Keith id like to think that esr didn't deck the cylinder but that's not the case . I had asked them when I got it what had to be done. And porting was it. They clamp from the inside of the sleeve in order to surface the deck and to put oring grooves. So for the cylinder being bored what you're claming is false. It was a bolt on and go cylinder. I just had to cut my port timings to match a stroker. [/QUOTE]

[JackBrown1988]

No customer service at esr. my builder working on race bikes for 30 years. 2 seized pisons, calls and calls to esr with no return call. builder found exh coolant leak and 2 stripped studs, cylinder sucking coolant, seize piston. no help from esr. esr cylinder came with studs striped. 2 helacoils, and selant fix the problem, cost me $750 big ones. in piston kits and boring-honing. 265 sleeper i feel your pain bro.

[DezSled]

Reading this makes me feel more confident in going with my engine builder.

Thank you Duncan Racing

[87TRX310R]

This is why when I buy something I inspect it to make sure there's nothing wrong with it.. Not go ohh perdy and bolt it on. Anybody that builds any type of motor whether its a 2 or 4 stroke motor knows this.

[aztecgwynn]

I do know this about ESR cylinders, I will never buy an ESR cylinder new or used from anyone.
With all these small or big issues everyone is having with cylinders I will never take that gamble and buy one.
It seems that at least once a week passionate TRX 250R members are having these small issues with ESR cylinders and I'm not talking about the small number of guys that seize them because of jetting, or didn't properly break in motors.

[etccb]

If you are putting together an engine yourself or a friend is doing it you need to perform an air leak test and a coolant system test. Prox to this day have these same problems but 10x more esr cyl are installed by people at home in their garage then the prox which are sold by builders who go through everything as they do their thing and also make a buck on them. Some people have had some problems that the above would have prevented. I have not had any trouble with mine and would buy from them again with the same confidence as the other options.

[JackBrown1988]

You kidding? I owned a pro-x for many years, got sold when my first born came along, never had a single thing go wrong. now I have a esr with helacoils and silacone, total cost $1350 bones. my builder has been building smokers for 30 years, never seen the crap we got from esr. 265 sleeper post about esr not pro-x. wtf does pro-x have to with esr cylinder crap? not a thing. every week a crapy esr cylinder pops up, not pro-x. go sell your esr bs etccb to other poor users who not know better. we know the crap esr is selling. u gona pay my $750 extra bones i drop?

[etccb]

A cyl every week? No they don't. A problem like yours in December-January repeated every week=Yes. You just can't use each post or thread as you add up problems.

Edit= Why are you attacking me? My post may not be what you want to hear but please reread with an open mind. I can relate to the cost of our toys and its effect on our relationships. I have had no trouble with mine but there is a chance due to med bills that it may go someday soon as well. I hope not.

[DnB_racing]

I dont usually get involved with people complaining and useless threads like this one, but please stop the negative responses or better yet delete this whole thread

without ESR continuing to keep produce parts for our extinct quads we would be at the mercy of old used junk from thieves on ebay with only profit on there minds... one less resource to help keep prices down for these none existent parts ,,

dont be so quick to condemn anyone that still has interest in these old gems, I thank god ESR still makes parts...that being said, I dont have any parts produced by esr but I sure dont want them to stop,
so keep this in mind when you start publicly judging one of the last options left to keep your quad running

with the amount sold im sure there will be issues, if you get a bad part, deal with it get it resolved and move on, if they resolve your issues it, that always goes unnoticed and quietly but any mistake gets so blown up

you admitted you were looking for a new cylinder but they were going to fix your problem by decking it
why wasn't that good enough for you?

if they deck it like you said. how would the cylinder be a paper weight? if you made a mistake with your porting and want them to give you a new one I dont blame them, but if your porting is fine then why not just get it decked and run it,,, something just doesnt sound right in what your looking to get

it sounds like you were trying to get something for nothing, or have them give you a new one to fix your mistakes

THEY OFFERED TO FIX YOUR PROBLEM HOW IS THAT BAD COSTERMER SERVICE?WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT

and anyone else publicly judging them, I suppose you would rather not have any options for parts???

[265 sleeper]

K7 there is finger nail catching lips on all the ports to show that the cylinder dropped. I would never had sent the cylinder to them if I didnt have a good reason. they could have fixed it but who's to say the sleeve would drop even more after they decked the cylinder I would then have to pick the cylinder up so much I would have the chance of the rings popping out and ports timinfs be way off . Exhuast would be over 198 of duration. No telling what my transfer would be at. All I know is puma here I come no more junk esr cylinders for me. Their pipes are great Im a keeping using that but the esr stamp is coming off of it. I'll put it on my stock cylinder 310 . When I get my everything sucks royalee. I ll take more pics.

[triplejay30349]

Originally posted by 265 sleeper
Their pipes are great Im a keeping using that but the esr stamp is coming off of it.

if you're going to bash the company and talk about how you're never going to buy any of their "junk" anymore I don't think this makes any sense. just saying :rolleyes:

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by triplejay30349
if you're going to bash the company and talk about how you're never going to buy any of their "junk" anymore I don't think this makes any sense. just saying :rolleyes: I agree,,

sleeper think about it,

youve already seized from wrong jetting, bored it 2 sizes over, and from the way it sounds the bore isn't true, a questionable porting, owned the cylinder for well over 6 months... and you want ESR to "warranty out"

are they really responsible for all these actions to the point of them loosing money for your mistakes,

the blame shouldn't be cast in there direction, they just sold it,you were the one that used and worked on and lets be honest destroyed it

dont get me wrong im all for company's standing behind there products,but with the work you have done, I would say its out of there control what happened

I would understand if you just bought it bolted on and had this happen, but thats far from all that has been done

[JackBrown1988]

I would understand if you just bought it bolted on and had this happen- we did.
we bought esr cylinder kit, bolted on and seized piston. piston 2 called esr set head nuts to 20 pounds, run 20 minutes piston seized. call esr said needed cr ignition, builder said bs. piston 3 ran for 30 mins seized. call esr and no help. my builder look & found 2 exh leaks, 2 strips stud threads cause leaks. we call esr and no help or return call. ais this is crap, i feel 265 sleeper pain, wac-wdf

[latheboy]

Once again, anytime a real builder puts together a 2 stroke, they do a pressure test.

[Blue-By-You]

Originally posted by JackBrown1988
You kidding? I owned a pro-x for many years, got sold when my first born came along, never had a single thing go wrong. now I have a esr with helacoils and silacone, total cost $1350 bones. my builder has been building smokers for 30 years, never seen the crap we got from esr. 265 sleeper post about esr not pro-x. wtf does pro-x have to with esr cylinder crap? not a thing. every week a crapy esr cylinder pops up, not pro-x. go sell your esr bs etccb to other poor users who not know better. we know the crap esr is selling. u gona pay my $750 extra bones i drop? Did you read the entire thread? if so you would know what prox has to do with Esr so called "crap" Also later you stated that you popped 3 pistons within less then few hrs total ride time... Sounds to me that maybe you dont know how to properly install a top end.. Did you even properly break the motor in? or check clearance, squish,compression, adjust your rings when installing piston, run the correct fuel, use correct amount of premix, or maybe you simply have a bad crank seal and your motor was sucking air?? and an brand new cylinder coming to your door with heli coils and stripped studs???? I dont think so man! Sorry to break it to ya but your mesily $750 is little fish to a company like esr and they def wouldnt let somthing like that fly.

[latheboy]

I totally understand why someone would be turned off if they got a cylinder with a helicoil in it. But truth is, I machine parts for the military, and many many times in aluminum, the prints call for a helicoil installed right from the factory.

[87TRX310R]

I think this thread needs to be DELETED. From all the responces i've read it's your own fault. I have a few ESR cylinders with ZERO problems probably cause I build my own motors properly jet them and don't ride them untill they have at least an hour or two of break in time infront of the blower fan that way I can walk around and listen for any abnormal sounds or leaks

[265 sleeper]

Originally posted by JackBrown1988
I would understand if you just bought it bolted on and had this happen- we did.
we bought esr cylinder kit, bolted on and seized piston. piston 2 called esr set head nuts to 20 pounds, run 20 minutes piston seized. call esr said needed cr ignition, builder said bs. piston 3 ran for 30 mins seized. call esr and no help. my builder look & found 2 exh leaks, 2 strips stud threads cause leaks. we call esr and no help or return call. ais this is crap, i feel 265 sleeper pain, wac-wdf don't worry I'm feeling your pain. I haven't put more than 25 hrs on the cylinder I would glady have paid for another bore and piston if that was the case the machine that bored my cylinder was a 15k boring machine. That's a self center machine. These guys have race cars that they build. And wad the ones who have told years ago to finger the ports to get the burrs off. So I don't believe the bore is off. And to say that you break in your motor properly is a bit of arrogance on your part there is a lot of different opinion on how to break your motor in. And to say your way is proper is wrong. I do break in my motor in the same manner and break in is not my problem nor is bore or porting . My sleeve dropped that's my whole problem. I could of had them deck it but who to say it would drop even more after.

[k7mm]

I think that it is sad if your sleeve dropped.There is no reason for that.But you had to go back and look at pictures when ESR told you that nothing was wrong with your cylinder.Then after reviewing your pictures,you said you called and yelled at them.That is my whole thing about if you really inspected the whole jug before sending back.If it was my cylinder and they told me that nothing was wrong with it,I would of told them that they were full of it and asked why the port match did'nt match up anymore,if the sleeve did'nt really drop,like you are claiming.But you had to go back and look at pictures.Hopefully you see where I am coming from.This should be good when you get it back.Because if your sleeve really did drop,then there is something seriously wrong with ESR's machining for the 310 cylinders.That should never happen!!!
You could always take a deep breath,and humble yourself,and call them back and ask them how your cylinder sleeve did'nt drop,if you,yourself seen that the port match did'nt line up anymore.If they say it is still lined up and you seen with your own eyes that it was'nt,then yeah I would probably go off and tell them to send it back.But something just does'nt seem right about this.Your whole concentration was on the top,and I could clearly see in the first picture that there was an edge on the aluminum where it met the sleeve.What pictures did you go back and review?Hopefully not the ones posted here!
Not trying to pour salt on a wound,I work hard for my money and know what it's like to be ripped off and also taken by poor craftsmenship.I just cannot see why ESR would tell you that your sleeve did'nt drop,if it really did.I wish ESR had a ATVRIDERS account.
Keith

[bobizzle]

hey k7 i understand where you are coming from, but i noticed his sleeve drop, then i told him lets bring it to the motor builder that built my 265 and who builds everyone else drag bike within 25 miles of his house. as soon as we took the head off he stated the cylinder had dropped. then we took off the cylinder (we brought him the while motor to over look it) and he said yes you have a sleeve drop. this is a person who has built more than 200 full blown race engines, and more motors for hobby and other customers. he would not lie to us he is a friend and personally said send it to esr and tell them the sleeve dropped. he said they will most likely send you a new cylinder or re-sleeve it, they will try and make it right. he has not steered me or 265 wrong for the time i have known him. he has showed me things that most motor builders would not show customers.

the only thing he would like more is a bike running right now so we could go riding. this issue has put him over the limit.

[mineralgrey01gt]

Sorry to hear that happen OP. My brother has purchased 3 top ends for 3 different builds from ESR and never one problem occured. Just a case of bad luck but any mass produced part will have failures in it, its just a matter of who ends up with it.

[wes350x]

Hey did you have the Gauthier boys look at it?

[atv fan 28]

Who is your motor builder bobizzle?? I was just being curious is why i ask.

[265 sleeper]

Originally posted by wes350x
Hey did you have the Gauthier boys look at it? yea wes hes the one who said the sleeve dropped after I had already inspected my cylinder before I brought it to him k7 . He also built bobizzle topend I built his bottom end and installed and tuned his motor in.

[JackBrown1988]

Your motor builder said the sleeve drop. You checked the sleeve drop. sounds like another esr f---up. i see esr saying not our fault. It is sad and poor craftsmenship. mi esr cylinder was wrong. crap work like this should never happen.

[wes350x]

Ok, Ive seen Scotts work and he knows his stuff about a 250r. He has some of the fastest ones around. We all ride at the dunes together. ESR should take care of this, I hope they do....

[265 sleeper]

Originally posted by wes350x
Ok, Ive seen Scotts work and he knows his stuff about a 250r. He has some of the fastest ones around. We all ride at the dunes together. ESR should take care of this, I hope they do.... they sending it back to me they was not taking care of any of it. Besides shipping they are so nice for taking care of the shipping ha . Im just going to fix my stock 310 with the stripped head studs and run her

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Sleeper,
When you got the cylinder kit new, did you measure the depth of the inner o ring groove ??.

Afterwards when you say the sleeve dropped, did you measure that o ring groove to see how much it had dropped ?.

You do know that on a 310 sleeve, the top (deck) of the iron sleeve is L shaped & the outer part of the inner o ring groove is the cylinder casting.

On cylinders like a 330 or 350cc, the whole inner o ring groove is machined into the top of the iron sleeve, so if one of those should drop, or the cylinder deck had not been machined proper, then yes there would be a part of the casting sticking up to catch a finger nail on.

If the sleeve is out of place in the port windows, enough sticking up to catch a finger nail on, then even I would have to say the sleeve has moved.

In that second pic you put up, after the cylinder has been ran, I can see a slite lip at the deck on the cylinder casting itself, but that is a sign the dome has seated itself down into the casting of the cylinder. That is pretty much normal when using an ESR head, because theres no divit in the outer shell of the head or the dome to keep it from rotating.
Pro-x heads, will have that divit in place to lock the dome in place & keep it from rotating.


You have a right to be upset with the problem just like anyone else would if it was them, but, & theres alway a but in anything gone wrong, we all need to check everything that has been machined, be it a cylinder, head, piston or a crankcase before the engine is put completely together or ran, & that includes me, I'm no different than anyone else.

As for the $15,000 boring machine, just cause it cost that much, it will bore no better than the person setting it up to do the work.

Case in point, I once use a shop for my own cylinder boring that did blower alky drag engines, shop & owner been in drags for many years.
That shop cost me two national & local championships one season because of crooked bore jobs in my cylinders.
Afterwards when the bore was measured close, 0.004 at the top, 0.002 just under the ports & then 0.004 at the skirt, seized up two engine & no back up at one event & riders had to push the bikes across the start line just to get last place points.
Why did this happen, because I was in a hurry getting those two engines ready & didnt check behind that shops work & it bit me.
Never will that happen to me again
So you see, it dont make no difference whos engine it is, its up to the owner to be sure each part is perfect as it is being put together.

Did two piston end up getting seized in that cylinder at first.

Please know I'm only trying to help sort things out, find out why the sleeve dropped or why it seized those pistons.
Neil

[265 sleeper]

I understand what you are saying cliegh. I did not check the oring groove before or after so as far as dept I do not know . But there is a lip in the ports them selves I had checked after a pulled the head I. I know when I ported the cylinder that I did not leave a lip in the ports . When I get it I will take pics

[C-LEIGH RACING]

If you can feel a lip in those port windows, that sleeve has dropped for sure.

If ESR not going to do anything, your going to have to get somebody to put that cylinder in a press & use an adapter the OD size of the iron sleeve, heat the casting so it will press the sleeve in place.

Once that is done then deck to top of the cylinder.
Yes, it will off set the port work some, but all you got to do is leave the base as it is, degree the ports for the stroke & then cut the port roofs again.
Then just cut the squish area in the dome some so the piston can run up into the head & you wont have to worrie about the rings snagging at the bottom.

It is some work for sure getting it back right & runable, but if I could machine the cylinder deck, I would fix it for you for nothing just to patch things up between you & ESR.

We all have to understand, that these cylinder kits ESR offering, are half the price of a Pro-x & sometimes even less than that. With anything at a lower price than normal, there will be problems, specially as new as these kits are.

I've got a brand new ESR 330 PV kit waiting to go on, just waiting for a +4 balanced crank to go under it & if I should have a problem with the cylinder, I'll correct it myself & move on, that way I know it will be right.
Neil

[JackBrown1988]

esr costs 310 $500. esr 330 $600. both no porting. esr clean up porting costs $100 more. esr cost me $750 more to get fix. pro-x 310 cots $750. pro-x 330 costs $850. pro-x costs $250 more than esr. next time buy pro-x. never buy esr again 4 me

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by JackBrown1988
esr costs 310 $500. esr 330 $600. both no porting. esr clean up porting costs $100 more. esr cost me $750 more to get fix. pro-x 310 cots $750. pro-x 330 costs $850. pro-x costs $250 more than esr. next time buy pro-x. never buy esr again 4 me are you saying you can get a 330 pro-x complete topend kit piston pin and gaskets for 850???? from were the cheapest ive seen is 1000... id be interested in a pro-x if i found one for that price

[Motofool250r]

Originally posted by DnB_racing
are you saying you can get a 330 pro-x complete topend kit piston pin and gaskets for 850???? from were the cheapest ive seen is 1000... id be interested in a pro-x if i found one for that price

250rtrikes/BDT has them on ebay for 900 cylinder, topend kit (wossner piston) and gaskets

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Originally posted by Motofool250r
250rtrikes/BDT has them on ebay for 900 cylinder, topend kit (wossner piston) and gaskets

That is more close to the price for a Pro-x kit, 900, cause like years ago they were $895.00 for a 265~302 or 310cc.
Not many things in this country go down in price, they just keep going up.

Anything new, will have its problems to begin with, & only large companys that have gobs of money put back, can afford to do a few years of testing a product before releasing that product to the public.
We all, would probably be surprised at how many things there are, that have been sold to the public & we did the testing while using them to see what needed to be changed.
I know in the small engine business, it has been like that for years.
Ever heard of a recall on a car or truck, well, if it had been tested a few years like we all are probably thinking it has been, then why would a recall even be needed.
Neil

[Grande Huevos]

Originally posted by JackBrown1988
esr costs 310 $500. esr 330 $600. both no porting. esr clean up porting costs $100 more. esr cost me $750 more to get fix. pro-x 310 cots $750. pro-x 330 costs $850. pro-x costs $250 more than esr. next time buy pro-x. never buy esr again 4 me when I bought my esr 330 kit new in Jan 2011 it came with head. my choice of dome. water neck my choice of color. piston kit. o ring kit. and my choice of porting.and free shipping for $600 I paid an additional $30 for the billet exhaust flange and $5 for a wrist pin baring. Its been a solid cylinder with no problems up to this day

[Motofool250r]

Originally posted by Grande Huevos
when I bought my esr 330 kit new in Jan 2011 it came with head. my choice of dome. water neck my choice of color. piston kit. o ring kit. and my choice of porting.and free shipping for $600 I paid an additional $30 for the billet exhaust flange and $5 for a wrist pin baring. Its been a solid cylinder with no problems up to this day

Esr cylinders are not all bad for sure. they dont machine the bore perfect, sometimes there are issues, sometimes the exhaust stud hole is cut too deep and coolant comes into the chamber.

but their porting is not worth the money.

we have a 330 we purchased unbored, un ported and then stroked to 4mm and full pro port job. ill post up after we beat on it for a full week at the dunes to see what happens.

neil's port work here makes the esr porting look like some 5 year old went inside.

but the difference is the ESR porting (aside from eddie porting it by hand) is done by machine it just does a rouch cut, changes the port heights a little for a tiny difference. the difference is alot of time and material that can be removed to make probably 5horsepower more on top of a TRX11 port.


if you understand this from the begining its okay, if you think your getting a 500$ port job from the get go for 200$ from esr then you likely to be quite upset.

metal is not perfect, ESR is tiny so they dont have the quality department that bigger companies do. (IE CPI) CPI makes cylinders for many applications banshee, 250r, yz250's sleds etc. they have been around longer so quality is figured out.

ESR went to a new casting house in the last couple years to drop the price and increase their profit margin to stay alive. Well there are hurdles and problems that will arise. we are lucky to have companies still supporting our love the trx250r. even if their customer service is less then great. and their website ordering service never works.

Im not gonna sit here and say that they make the best parts as we all know they have problems here and there.

we could dig up problems about every company and builder that people think are the cats meow.
(think CT racing talk about over priced junk)

We built a new big bore this year and the motor builder decided to use a 330 ESR, i have a puma, a proX 330(now 344), and had a stroked oem cylinder.

everything can have problems, my puma cylinder devoloped a crack in the casting had to get sent to be welded and replated. **** happens if you want the cheaper stuff dont expect the perfect set it and forget kinda service.

thanks all from me

[C-LEIGH RACING]

A Puma cylinder cracked ?.
Just goes to show, anything can happen & makes no difference whos product it is.

Who can tell me when the first Pro-x cylinder was offered to the public & who was it casting those Pro-x cylinders.
Neil

[bobizzle]

i have one pic to show you the sleeve drop, i am trying to borrow a friends camera to take some good quality pics inside the cylinder to show some more spots where you can obviously tell it dropped. this is the best picture i could get off cam phone. hope this picture shows what we have been talking about for the past couple weeks.

[aztecgwynn]

The fact is me as well as others would love to buy these 310 cylinders.
But who wants to shell out money we barely have and send out to get ported by someone else and have an expert like Carlos to look at it to see if cylinder is perfectly round, or is the sleeve or ports aligned, or have exhaust screws gone into water jacket the kit is what $599 and have to pay someone an additional $250 for porting and more money to check everything else, no thanks I will pass.
If I ever choose to buy their kit that is what i'm ultimately going to do their is no other choice.

[etccb]

The prox to this day can still have the ex studs tapped into the jacket, head stud problems and square issues. You have to check this out whichever way you go and you have to do an air leak and coolant system pressure test whichever way you go including oem.

[Motofool250r]

Originally posted by aztecgwynn
The fact is me as well as others would love to buy these 310 cylinders.
But who wants to shell out money we barely have and send out to get ported by someone else and have an expert like Carlos to look at it to see if cylinder is perfectly round, or is the sleeve or ports aligned, or have exhaust screws gone into water jacket the kit is what $599 and have to pay someone an additional $250 for porting and more money to check everything else, no thanks I will pass.
If I ever choose to buy their kit that is what i'm ultimately going to do their is no other choice.

honestly if you buy a ProX and dont port it your in the same boat. at the mercy of someone else idea of the proper piston to wall clearances and such.

the aftermarket cylinders have very very mild porting built into the casting so without a full port you get the bland feeling power curve as its nothing near optimal.

a good puma cylinder needs 500$ worth of porting before it really wakes up and makes the power.

on a ProX 344(330cc plus 4mill) difference in porting is 10-12 horsepower.


so these are the things you have to keep in mind.

if you want to play in the big bore realm these are the issues your gonna face.

and they dont stop there, gotta warm em up longer clutches dont last as long and it goes on and on.

[JackBrown1988]

Originally posted by etccb
The prox to this day can still have the ex studs tapped into the jacket, head stud problems and square issues. You have to check this out whichever way you go and you have to do an air leak and coolant system pressure test whichever way you go including oem.

BS. have run pro-x and no problems. my builder been building smokers for 30 years, no problems with pro-x. by esr and nothing but problems. customer service at esr plain sucks. always trying to blame the customer & builder. BS

[etccb]

Why bs? Thank you for quoting an absolutely correct post. Have a great day.


EDIT= I and many others have had no problems at all with esr. You have stated before that you will bash them any time you see their name. That does not mean that anyone has had another problem just that you have made another post.
Again, have a great day.

[k7mm]

I do not see how port work has anything to do with this guys sleeve dropping.After seeing that last picture posted,if it was me,I would want to go and have them at ESR tell me to my face,that the sleeve did not drop.Up until this point,I have personally chosen to not run any of ESR,s products.After seeing this,I could care less if they even stay in business,to be honest!Treating someone the way they are treating you should not go unanswered for.It's sad that they think they can get away with this.I do,nt care how bad someone ported thier own cylinder,or if the bore is a little off,the simple fact is,the sleeve should not be dropping in any cylinder.I wish you would have been clearer,earlier on with pictures and describing this whole mess.This is a slap in the face!!!I am not sure what I would have done in your situation.You said that you had to go back and look at pictures after they said the sleeve did not drop,so I did'nt know if you knew what you were talking about.I am not sure how it went down,but did you ask them why the porting did,nt match anymore,aluminum to steel,if they did not think the sleeve dropped?A child could see that the port match does not line up anymore.This is what I wanted to see.Post some more pictures. ESR will be getting a nasty email from me!
Keith

[bobizzle]

hey keith, thanks for keeping on subject pertaining to the picture. i am trying to get some good quality ones inside the cylinder, not too easy to take them with cam phone inside. my friend will be bringing his cam over, and it is able to get into tight places. i deff will take some more pics and post them up. was gunna do it ton, but i have a migraine and wanna let ya know whats goin on.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

I see nobody has taken the time to answer my question of, anybody know when the first Pro-x cylinder was cast or who it was doing the casting.

But if there was someone that knew those details, they would know that Pro-x cylinders had to go through the SAME growing pains in their begining just like the ESR cylinders.
Anyone of you, had the whole bottom half of the cylinder bust off, from the transfer ports up through the reed chamber on an ESR cylinder.

I've been around for a right good while & I've not heard of any ESR cylinders busting like that.
Just saying the Pro-x had its problem in its begining as well.

Yes, Pro-x is the leader today for an aftermarket cylinder for the old TRX250R, but one day hopefully the ESR will be up to par as well.

I've said this before & I'll say it again, NO, 2 stroke engine will run no better nor last no longer,
than how much the person knows that is tuning on that engines carb.
And it makes no difference if Curtis Sparks, Loren Duncan, Arlan at LED, Allen at CT Racing or Carlos at BDT built the engine for you.

I've been in 2 strokes since the late 60s & can tell you, there nobody out there can go through a life of building engines & not make a mistake.
If it were so, that a mistake couldnt be made, then why are they having Nascar engines blowing up, or NHRA engines, because someone dropped the ball & didnt test the part that failed before using it.

It is clear that the sleeve has dropped in that cylinder & it should have been taken care of, repaired, but theres only Eddie & Tom working at ESR so time is limited.
Like I said earlier, if I had a way to deck the cylinder, I would fix it for you for FREE, but that is the only thing keeping me from doing it for you.
Neil

[etccb]

Neil
I remember those prox cyl. Such poor castings that blew apart, badly cracked, leaked coolant out through the side of the cyl, leaked coolant through the dome of the head into the cyl, etc.
There were a lot of customers that prox left high and dry and they are not always perfect now. The problem is that with la sleave being a requirement in our industry some people in the biz didn't / won't say anything about that product but will speak about the other company. This cyl that this thread is about makes me wonder if esr could see something with that cyl that made them feel that the core itself was damaged by the end user and made it beyond repair? I am not saying it was or wasn't and I am just thinking out loud with that statement. I think how you are offering to help this guy if you can is very cool. You are a great guy to have around for us 250r peeps.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Now I'm just guessing as well, but they may be thinking when it seized it over heated & caused the sleeve to drop, & then you have another place boring the cylinder instead of it being sent back to them.

Either way, if it had been my cylinder casting, I would have made an attempt to correct it to some degree, just as to say thank you for buying.

Us not knowing everything that has gone on, leaves a lot of details out for us to go by, so we can only guess.

One thing I think we might can look forward to out of this, might be interesting for us to find out the out come.
When Mr Jack Brown makes that trucking trip out to Cali & brings a suit aginst ESR for his $750.00 dollars & then Eddie shows up in court with all his post he has submitted on the internet degrading the ESR business, now that will be interesting to find out in the end.

We all need to be careful what we say about a business, because when we type it in, it is there for all to see & use as proof.
Neil

[destey]

f*ck esr. They charged me $19.99 for 2 orings, and $17.99 for shipping them. Seriously f them. That was after I said I'd never do business again after I ordered a cr250 adapter plate. 3 weeks after I ordered they said they shipped it. Then I called back a week later and they said they had no record of me ordering. Another 2 weeks later finally got it.

Sorry for anyone who has to deal with their joke of an outfit.

[bobizzle]

hey c-leigh, i herd of the esr cylinders cracking like the pro-x ones when they came out, but they did add some supports on the intake side parallel with the cylinder on the sides of intake. i will take a picture for you and show you the supports.

i do understand that we did buy a cylinder, port it ourselves, and get it bored, but if you were to look at the piston and cylinder then you could tell it did not seize and drag the cylinder down. for some reason it dropped.

it could have been machined, and they might have left a shaving of two on the lip for the sleeve. when they pressed it in it was perfect, but due to vibration or some other issue it wiggled loose causing the cylinder to drop. i herd this scenario from multiple people and would not discredit this theory.

the only thing i have a slight issue with is that all we did to the ports is match the castings and adjust the port timings for a +4 stroke. we ran it and noticed we could pull a little more meat out of the transfers and intake to get a little more power where we wanted it.

i will talk to 265 and i might go ahead and deck the cylinder for him. i have a lath and mill and i am working on a very thick spacer plate to bolt down and true up to deck this cylinder, but i will probably get him to re sleeve it and then go from there. i am trying to get him to just go ahead and fix this cylinder and make a drag bike out of it, or a bike that will not be an everyday rider.

also, you have a point on jetting, the bike will only be as good as the jetting itself. if its lean, then it will burn up, if it is rich, then it will load up and not perform like it is supposed to.

i will look into the information on when, where and who casted the first pro-x cylinders and try to get more information on them.

thanks for your valued input.

p.s. i do have a small issue with some of ESR's pricing. I.E. charging to much for o-rings, copper washers, and any other small parts. i bought a head from them a while back for my pro-x cylinder. on the site it says that the head, dome and o-rings are included. i got a bill for the head and a dome. it was on sale, but on the site it did not mention that the dome was not included and you will be charged for one. came with no o-rings, called them about it and tom said that the dome was not included with the "on sale price", but the o-rings were forgotten and if i made another order he would send them free of charge, or pay for the shipping to get them to me. shipping was close to $15 if I'm not mistaken. i found a gasket company down the road from me and the two o-rings costed me $5 total, one high temp, and one regular.

[etccb]

The esr cyl have always had the supports and have not had cyl craking problems. Esr did sell prox cyl in the past though so that could be the connection that you are thinking of.

[bobizzle]

did my research and came up with this: Calvin at CP Industries is the one who started this cylinder, he made the for LA Sleeve. LA Sleeve was sleeving them and machining them. Alan Knolls from CT Racing was the one who took the cylinders and tested them, he did not have anything to do with making them.

Calvin said that the Puma, Cheetah, and Sphinx are based off of the pro-x cylinder, but have a lot more advanced technology in them. and he is going in a different direction of the original pro-x cylinders.

they have not been made for about a year now, but one of the racing companies, not listed above, said that they herd that Eddie at ESR had ordered some from overseas to be made up within the past year.

the only person who might still have the original ones floating around would be LA Sleeve. ESR may have some, but they might not be the original American made one. hope this helps you out, and if you needed more info please let me know, i don't mind finding out information like this.

also, i forgot to ask him what year he started to make these cylinders.

[bobizzle]

Originally posted by etccb
The esr cyl have always had the supports and have not had cyl craking problems. Esr did sell prox cyl in the past though so that could be the connection that you are thinking of.

you may be right and this is where i got the information twisted. i may be thinking that the ESR cylinders had issues but the didn't, they seen the issue with the pro-x and added the supports to the cylinders.

[etccb]

All of the ESR cyl are cast here in the USA. There are some that are selling another product and compeating against them that would like people to think that they are cast over seas but that is not the case.

[bobizzle]

if calvin quit casting the cylinders over a year ago, then who is casting the new ones and where?

[etccb]

ESR has their very own cyl cast in la. It has nothing to do with calvin or the prox cyl. Like I said some will try to put the over seas thought in peoples minds for sales purposes. They are USA though and rumors can't change that.

[bobizzle]

so there casted in louisiana and called pro-x? because esr is selling pro-x cylinders.

[etccb]

The far west la area located north of mexico lol. The ESR cyl are not called prox. ESR used to sell prox cyl before they started making their own 1 1/2 year ago or so.

[JackBrown1988]

more bs. have run pro-x no problems. my builder been building smokers for 30 years no problems with pro-x. we buy esr problems-problems-problems. esr customer service sucks. esr blames the customer n tries 2 sell more parts. no help for the customer. only more bs. never buy from esr again.

[triplejay30349]

Originally posted by JackBrown1988
more bs. have run pro-x no problems. my builder been building smokers for 30 years no problems with pro-x. we buy esr problems-problems-problems. esr customer service sucks. esr blames the customer n tries 2 sell more parts. no help for the customer. only more bs. never buy from esr again.

Please stop copying and pasting this same paragraph, as I have seen it at least 3x in this thread already :rolleyes:

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Originally posted by bobizzle
did my research and came up with this: Calvin at CP Industries is the one who started this cylinder, he made the for LA Sleeve. LA Sleeve was sleeving them and machining them. Alan Knolls from CT Racing was the one who took the cylinders and tested them, he did not have anything to do with making them.

Calvin said that the Puma, Cheetah, and Sphinx are based off of the pro-x cylinder, but have a lot more advanced technology in them. and he is going in a different direction of the original pro-x cylinders.

they have not been made for about a year now, but one of the racing companies, not listed above, said that they herd that Eddie at ESR had ordered some from overseas to be made up within the past year.

the only person who might still have the original ones floating around would be LA Sleeve. ESR may have some, but they might not be the original American made one. hope this helps you out, and if you needed more info please let me know, i don't mind finding out information like this.

also, i forgot to ask him what year he started to make these cylinders.

Thank you bobizzle.

Why I had asked, was to see who was around when the first Pro-x were cast & how much they knew about them or remembered.
I've been around 250R since 86 & learned a lot about them & the companys had anything to do with them.

Allen at CT, did have a lot to do with the Pro-x cylinders design & then on into production of them & still there today.
LA Sleeve backed the product, because it would be under their name & LA Sleeve & CT Racing in a joint effort worked together to produce them.

CPI, was the Pro-x cylinder castor at first, but was so many problems from the first design & casting that another company was used at some point. (probably during the time was so many casting busting) BUT, nothing new & I mean nothing in this world at first will be with out problems that will need be delt with.
To say that CPI is the castor of the Pro-x cylinders today, I've not been told it is so, but I can say, if any questions asked on that subject, everybody is mighty tight lipped about it or it seems nobody knows.

Either way, regardless of who is casting the Pro-x cylinders, it "NOW" is a top quality product for our old TRX250Rs, but as with anything of that quality, you will pay for it & rightly so.

On the ESR cylinders, I was told direct, the castor was in Cali & real close to ESR, that be true all I know is what I was told.
It is mighty wondering though, by those ESR cylinders being cheap as they are, then look at anything else made in the USA high priced as things are, so it will make you wonder.
Cars & trucks sold today, are at least 50~60% plastic & still are way to high priced, for no more than what you are getting, but that is how things are in the USA.

All I would like to ask, & I'm really nobody here, is that we at least try to help ESR with the problems they are having, in a way to try & resolve them instead of beating them in the ground.
It may come a day, they would be our last leg to stand on with our old 250Rs & would be mighty sad for it to be gone & the HIGH COST 4 pokes take over.

Always look at what is going on in the back ground, who the squeeky wheel is & why they are making so much noise, because they may not have your best interest at hand & to destory you for their good.
Neil

[JackBrown1988]

who cares where esr cast cylinder? how bout the customer problems. how bout paying for customers damage when esr sends junk. how bout not defending esr every time a customer has problems. how bout not blaming the customer when esr sells crap. too many customers with esr problems. stop sweeping under the rug. help esr to be better. first help the customer with esr crap.

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by JackBrown1988
who cares where esr cast cylinder? how bout the customer problems. how bout paying for customers damage when esr sends junk. how bout not defending esr every time a customer has problems. how bout not blaming the customer when esr sells crap. too many customers with esr problems. stop sweeping under the rug. help esr to be better. first help the customer with esr crap. everyone that actually cares about there 250r should care!!! and its obvious all you care about is yourself, and your 750 that you had to spend

like Neil said ESR may be the last one left someday,

even with others still supporting the 250s having ESR in the game helps keep other prices in check...

so keep bashing and be prepared to put the quad on blocks, cause without customers buying parts there is no need to put future resource and effort into improving the parts that they already make

almost everyone sees through your negative remarks that you ether have something to gain from them not selling parts or your just plain ignorant to the fact we still need companies making parts for our quads

after reading your remarks I want to help support ESR more, buy buying some parts...

so your comments actually gained them a customer:blah:

[leager-n-ky]

I have just about everything ESR makes for the R on my quad, ANY time i have had a problem with ANYTHING Tom has ALWAYS taken good care of me, as a matter of fact, i will be placing another order on Monday.

[265 sleeper]

Well good for you for all your esr junk you have and going to get . Hope you don't have any of the problems I went through as I have proof of what kinda junk they sold me. I even went to far as going to buy another cylinder kit from them just cylinder and piston . they said yea will sell it to you for 350 . So your telling me when I bought my complete kit for 450 that for an extra hundred bucks I could get another head and dome with a water jacket. That was a deal of a life time . I'm just done with esr. Also hate to keep bashing esr I know they do have some good parts but fix what's broken. Like my cylinder. And for esr to say port work looks like crap. How many races has anyone won from their port work. Nobody that I know of. Neil Thanks for wanting to fix esr denial mess up. But like bobizzle said will run it as race bike only.

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by 265 sleeper
Well good for you for all your esr junk you have and going to get . Hope you don't have any of the problems I went through as I have proof of what kinda junk they sold me. I even went to far as going to buy another cylinder kit from them just cylinder and piston . they said yea will sell it to you for 350 . So your telling me when I bought my complete kit for 450 that for an extra hundred bucks I could get another head and dome with a water jacket. That was a deal of a life time . I'm just done with esr. Also hate to keep bashing esr I know they do have some good parts but fix what's broken. Like my cylinder. And for esr to say port work looks like crap. How many races has anyone won from their port work. Nobody that I know of. Neil Thanks for wanting to fix esr denial mess up. But like bobizzle said will run it as race bike only. sleeper yes you did have a problem and im sorry about that
its not you that actually makes me think the way I do about supporting ESR, you do have a real issue, unlike someone else thats just bashing

but PLEASE remember your cylinder is well used, I realize your not happy with them. but put yourself in there shoes, the cylinder is on its second bore has been ported in a way that doesnt look professional, and is out of round and probably needs another bore .. its not like you just got it from them last week and had a problem,

how long are they supposed to warranty well used and abused race parts??

im sure if you had brought this in within a reasonable time of purchase in the same condition you got it they would have been much more responsive,even with all the use they offered you something!! thats all I would expect

those cylinders only have a couple over bores on them, and you almost used them all, if they replaced yours were is the line? anyone that has used all the bores could have your same argument... they could run it till its bores are used, heat it, press it, and try to return it


bottom line.........its a race part and race parts have a very short window of return, and we are all aware of that going in!!

[All250R]

People who are in the 250R market are doing it because they love it. It's hard to create custom parts and services for people. Duncan will try to set your engine up so far from the edge of tuned there is almost no way you can come back with an issue... It's insurance against how finicky people get when they have problems.

No one is getting rich with 250R's plus the quad market in general in sales and parts is not good for anyone in the industry. MX is not suffering like quads are. My guess is ESR is scraping by financially. I'm not a fan of ESR's services department, but their parts are pretty good and Eddie is trying to satisfy what remains of this highly endangered bike and industry.

[k7mm]

On 6-10-2012 I emailed ESR this message:
Hello.I respect you guys.I am a Honda TRX 250R owner and there is a big deal going on about you guys on the ATVRIDERS.COM forum web site right now,under the 250R section.Here is a link to the forum thread http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=488767&perpage=10&pagenumber=1
Not sure how much time you have to check these things out,but something just do'nt seem right.
Take it easy!
Keith
I thought the whole point of this thread is because ESR denyed that 265 sleepers sleeve had dropped.Well from the looks of it,265's sleeve did drop.To be a real man,do not deny the truth to someone that works hard for thier money.I understand totally that these are high performance race parts.ESR could have admitted that the sleeve had dropped,but explained that they would not warranty for numerous reasons.But instead it seems that they chose to deny the truth.If they want to be a part of this whole 250R world in the future,which they are certanly trying to be,then they cannot be denying the evidence,and think they will get away with it.Back when all the PROX cylinders had problems,the internet was not what it is now.It's amazing to find out this kind of information.I again choose to not run ESR's products on my 250R,but I still respected them.But I have to say,I have zero respect for someone that cannot tell the truth.I know there is always 2 sides to every story,but it seems pretty clear that ESR told 265 that his sleeve did not drop,and that all the 310 cylinders on thier shelf looked as his did.
Keith

[k7mm]

Also,I think it will be a sad day if all 250R owners ended up only with ESR to buy parts from.But be honest,it will never happen.ESR is trying to make stuff happen for 250R's,but if they want to make it in the long run,they need to be honest with each and every problem that occurs.If people have enough money to gamble,by buying from ESR,then there is alot better companies out there that will treat them with the respect that they deserve.ESR is making a WALMART for 250R parts in my opinion.I am thankful for this thread and all of the good information coming out.It shows peoples characters.Is people going to stand up for what is right,or hope for WALMART parts to be around in the future?You can definatily get better service at WALMART,that"s for sure!I think if anyone buys one of ESR's new 310 cylinders after this thread,then they are pretty desperate.Something is wrong with those cylinders for the sleeve to let loose.Was it just 265 sleepers particular 310 cylinder,well nobody knows,and to just plain out be lied to from ESR like 265 had done,well who wants to take the gamble.I am sure there is people out there.I feel bad writing this knowing people have spent thier hard eared money on ESR products and is representing them today,but something is wrong with ESR to deny 265 sleeper.I did not like one bit that 265 was putting ESR down,without clear facts when this thread started.I am a lover of truth.The truth is that ESR should make this right!Sorry 265,I myself would not run that cylinder with that sleeve.It has already came loose once.The only way you may be able to use it is to have a 330 sleeve pressed into it,but would it even be worth it???I think that you were right when you said that you had a paper wieght.Unless ESR changes thier minds and decides to help you,your pretty much taking a gamble by trying to still make the cylinder work.
Keith

[etccb]

They have sold a ton of these and in this thread there is a total of 2 that have had some sort of a problem. One listed here by the op and one from december that has been posted about 10x in this thread. The fact is that they have a much better product then some people are wanting others to think.

[bobizzle]

here is another pic i was able to take that shows a clear picture of the sleeve drop. im still waiting on friends camera to take pics inside the transfers, but i can tell you the dropped just as much as the sleeve did drop in these pictures.

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by k7mm
Also,I think it will be a sad day if all 250R owners ended up only with ESR to buy parts from.But be honest,it will never happen.ESR is trying to make stuff happen for 250R's,but if they want to make it in the long run,they need to be honest with each and every problem that occurs.If people have enough money to gamble,by buying from ESR,then there is alot better companies out there that will treat them with the respect that they deserve.ESR is making a WALMART for 250R parts in my opinion.I am thankful for this thread and all of the good information coming out.It shows peoples characters.Is people going to stand up for what is right,or hope for WALMART parts to be around in the future?You can definatily get better service at WALMART,that"s for sure!I think if anyone buys one of ESR's new 310 cylinders after this thread,then they are pretty desperate.Something is wrong with those cylinders for the sleeve to let loose.Was it just 265 sleepers particular 310 cylinder,well nobody knows,and to just plain out be lied to from ESR like 265 had done,well who wants to take the gamble.I am sure there is people out there.I feel bad writing this knowing people have spent thier hard eared money on ESR products and is representing them today,but something is wrong with ESR to deny 265 sleeper.I did not like one bit that 265 was putting ESR down,without clear facts when this thread started.I am a lover of truth.The truth is that ESR should make this right!Sorry 265,I myself would not run that cylinder with that sleeve.It has already came loose once.The only way you may be able to use it is to have a 330 sleeve pressed into it,but would it even be worth it???I think that you were right when you said that you had a paper wieght.Unless ESR changes thier minds and decides to help you,your pretty much taking a gamble by trying to still make the cylinder work.
Keith Keith... Im going to take the other side just for discussion .....
not that I doubt in any way that the sleeve did drop,Im not arguing that at all, and its not right if ESR said it didnt

but. Again I ask how long is a company supposed to warranty a part?

look at everything done to this cylinder,even though I do believe sleeper probably doesnt have any amount of running hours, but the cylinder shows a different story, if anyone was to look at the cylinder they would think it was ran to its extreme...
and in that respect I understand them not replacing it,but they did offer a discount towards another,
would you honestly expect Them to "warranty out" of a VERY used cylinder?
if the complaint is customer service, they did offer a solution, and yes there are 2 sides to every story,and for the whole truth, I would really like to hear the other side before I condemn them

[k7mm]

At this point there has been 4164 views of this thread.I think that it is in ESR's best interest if they did respond.From what was stated in this thread,ESR said that there was nothing wrong with the cylinder sleeve,and that they would deck the cylinder if 265 gave them more money.From the gap in that last picture,that sure is enough to break an o-ring seal.If they do not want to warranty the cylinder,then so what.That is just hard nosed business.But according to everything in this thread,they are totally denying that anything is wrong with the sleeve,and even went to the extent to say all of thier 310 cylinder sleeves on the shelf looks the same.It's like they are trying to play 265 sleeper for a fool.If they have enough ingenuity to have thier own cylinders cast,then I am sure they could come up with many other excuses to not warranty thier product,than just strait denying that the sleeve has moved.It's almost like after they denied the sleeve dropping that they came up with the bore being out of round.Kinda like saying,well if your bore was true,then your sleeve would'nt have dropped.Thier web site says for the 310 cylinders:
4 OVERSIZED PISTONS AVAILABLE 72.25mm,72.5mm,73mm,73.5mm
People work hard for thier money and do not appreciate being slapped in the face by dishonesty.This kind of business practice is a dead end street.Especially in this day and age of the internet.What do companies think,that we wil just go away?Some will not go away without a fight.ESR should to be held accountable,if they deny that the sleeve has come loose.So what if they do'nt want to warranty the cylinder,just admit that the sleeve has dropped.But wait,then that would be kinda like saying something is wrong with thier product.Oops
Keith

[bobizzle]

Originally posted by k7mm
At this point there has been 4164 views of this thread.I think that it is in ESR's best interest if they did respond.From what was stated in this thread,ESR said that there was nothing wrong with the cylinder sleeve,and that they would deck the cylinder if 265 gave them more money.From the gap in that last picture,that sure is enough to break an o-ring seal.If they do not want to warranty the cylinder,then so what.That is just hard nosed business.But according to everything in this thread,they are totally denying that anything is wrong with the sleeve,and even went to the extent to say all of thier 310 cylinder sleeves on the shelf looks the same.It's like they are trying to play 265 sleeper for a fool.If they have enough ingenuity to have thier own cylinders cast,then I am sure they could come up with many other excuses to not warranty thier product,than just strait denying that the sleeve has moved.It's almost like after they denied the sleeve dropping that they came up with the bore being out of round.Kinda like saying,well if your bore was true,then your sleeve would'nt have dropped.Thier web site says for the 310 cylinders:
4 OVERSIZED PISTONS AVAILABLE 72.25mm,72.5mm,73mm,73.5mm
People work hard for thier money and do not appreciate being slapped in the face by dishonesty.This kind of business practice is a dead end street.Especially in this day and age of the internet.What do companies think,that we wil just go away?Some will not go away without a fight.ESR should to be held accountable,if they deny that the sleeve has come loose.So what if they do'nt want to warranty the cylinder,just admit that the sleeve has dropped.But wait,then that would be kinda like saying something is wrong with thier product.Oops
Keith

hey Keith, you have an excellent point, and you sparked a little interest in me. i still have 265sleeper's cylinder. i will try and make my way to the shop where the last bore was done and use there t-handle telescoping mic set to check the bore. i will take pics of the measurement and show what they are. i cant promise that it will be done tom due to me having to work till 5:30pm, and they close at 5:00, but just maybe he will stay after hours for an hour or so and help me with this issue.

since it was said "the cylinder had not dropped", and it did, i will test the other other statement of "the bore is .002 bigger on the bottom of the sleeve compared to the top", it will be nice to know what comes out of mic-ing it myself, with trained professionals supervising me and making sure it is done the right way.

[265 sleeper]

It's not like I put over 30 hours on her. She ran lean as I have posted on her with pics. The only reason I bored her over to a 72.5 is they had a back order on UBS 72.25 piston that direct from esr. She had more time of sitting then running from buying new carb cr ignition and piston that I changed die to hose clamp breaking in the dunes. So to say she was ran a lot no. Port work was incomplete my port timing were correct. I just pulled meat out lil by lil till I was going to find what I wanted. Then com back and smooth her up. Tell you right now even gauthier commented on my stock cylinder 310 on how pretty my port work looked. I'll get bobizzle to post pics.

[k7mm]

I would like to apologize to all the forum members for condemning ESR.I have no prier knowlage of this cylinder before this thread.When I got on ESR's web site two nights ago to investigate thier cylinders,I felt my mouth start to water a little bit when I seen thier sale prices.For years all of the best 250R engine builders have gone through many cylinders to find out what works and what does not.The whole thing is that 265 sleepers sleeve did move.Even if it was just a little,it did move.If I was going to spend my hard earned money on a cylinder and try to become a great builder,I would want a cylinder with a solid foundation to start from.Myself,I believe 265 should have been able to shatter a crank,sieze a piston,shatter a piston,and the sleeve not budge a bit.Now that is a solid foundation to build upon.That is just me.
With that being said.ESR had the cylinder in thier possesion and from what 265 says,ESR told him that his sleeve was fine and that it did not move.They continued to tell him that they would deck the cylinder for free.I did not catch that free part at first.If the sleeve budged a little,enough to break the o-ring seal,I do not understand how they thought that decking it would solve the problem of the sleeve budging loose.A quick fix,but the port match areas is the evidence.To fix the cylinder right,if it was me,would be to press a whole new sleeve into it,and then go back and port match.But the problem may be that all of thier sleeves or the cylinders,either or,were machined a little bit off for the sleeve to have moved inside of the aluminum.I am highly doubting that ESR will change thier mind and give you a new cylinder.The solution may be,if you really care about the cylinder,would be to buy a sleeve from them at cost, and have them press it in there for free,not deck the cylinder.Hopefully it would stay.That just seems like a fair solution to me after all that has gone on,instead of ending up with a paper wieght.They probably know that it budged,and if it was'nt for the o-ring not sealing,it probably would'nt be that big of a problem,in thier eyes.If you really want,you could always push to try and get the sleeve for free.But it may be too late for that,since you pushed for a new cylinder instead.
After rereading this and looking at both sides,I do not see how a brand new cylinder is warranted here in your quest to be a great builder.A sleeve,sure.But that may be too late.If you knew what you were talking about when you called them up,then they probably would have pressed a new sleeve in there.
The cylinders are new and may have some bugs to work out.I believe they know that the sleeve budged a little.Try to get a new sleeve.Hopefully it's not too late!
That is my opinion.Sorry again to all the forum members!
Keith

[bobizzle]

i left the cylinder and the guys business yesterday, he said he is going to check the bore roundness, and the taper. i will be going around 1 or 2 this afternoon to pick it up and see what he says about it.

[265 sleeper]

Ok bobizzle just called me the cylinder bore is .0005 out of taper from top to bottom. Esr said it was .003 off at bottom and .001 at top . I m going to get bobizzle to lap the cylinder and we are going to check my head . But first we are going to heat the cylinder up and try in press it in some more. Neil what you think how much pressure should I use to press . I'll be using a 20 ton press with a pressure gauge .

[bobizzle]

the guy was backed up for a couple days and said that the bore almost looked perfect, he would just slap a piston in and run it. he had said to lap the cylinder and head to make sure they were flush.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Sleeper, sorry I'm so late getting back, been away at a national race.

It shouldnt take very much pressure in a press, to make the sleeve bottom out, once you get the casting hot enough.

The thickest area of the cylinder casting, will be on the side right above the front mounting boss hole. From that indention all the way up tothe deck is where you'll need to heat the casting the most.

If you had an oven close by the press, you could heat the whole thing to 350~400* for about an hour & then put it straight in the press to bottom out the sleeve.

Keep in mind, once you get the sleeve pressed all the way in & the casting part of the cylinder needs machined, that outer o ring groove, needs to be 0.050 to be at its proper depth for the o ring to squish out.
Neil

[265 sleeper]

Ok guys I finally got to work on my cylinder from bobizzle buying all the tools we needed to just everyday life . But if I can't post pics ill have bobizzle post tomorrow some time. But we had to take off .009 to clean her up.

[265 sleeper]

Here's one with .004 takin off

[265 sleeper]

This shows after .004 takin off the problem still not fixed.

[265 sleeper]

Here's final pass .005 plus the .004 takin off from first pass . Total of .009 they claimed nothing was wrong with the cylinder

[JackBrown1988]

Wow dude, thats jacked up. not at all surprised. total .009 they claimed nothing was wrong with the cylinder. nothing ever wrong with the crap esr sells. always customer fault.

[k7mm]

There is always two sides to every story.ESR told you that they would deck the cylinder for you,but you wanted a whole new cylinder instead.At least you got to learn how to deck a cylinder out of all this.

[265 sleeper]

would you want a ticking time bomb in your hands I don't.


Well I did a leak down test I found a leak a bad one its going to cost alot

A lot less than what esr cost me . A whole .35 cent hose clamp .

[265 sleeper]

would you want a ticking time bomb in your hands I don't.


Well I did a leak down test I found a leak a bad one its going to cost alot

A lot less than what esr cost me . A whole .35 cent hose clamp .

[265 sleeper]

Bike almost together

[bobizzle]

i am glad sleeper got the cylinder back from esr without them doing anything to it. i allowed me to see everything "wrong with it", the things that were wrong and the things that weren't. the bore was good, and the cylinder needed to be decked. i understand that esr would have decked it, but they also said they could not chuck up to it since the bore was out of round. i just wanted to get it done for him and know that the job would be done right and the first time. i don't like knowing someone else is doing work and i cannot see what is being done. i allowed him to see jig, tooling and everything else that was used to check and fix this issue.

it is easy to say a problem is fixed, but it is different to check it yourself and make sure it is done right from the beginning.

we will be finishing up on his bike and doing some test to ensure that there will not be any further issue with it.

[265 sleeper]

Ok after putting my motor togetheri needed to check my uccr . Punch in the numbers and came up with 17:1 uccr so alky is out of the question for my type of riding. Ima have to take 2-3 cc out of my dome .

[265 sleeper]

Set her up to run

[265 sleeper]

Here's a pic of pump gas dome cut for c12

[265 sleeper]

Well motor ran strong other than gearing and paddle sizing . But my bike broke the tierod end so it ruined my weekend.

[265 sleeper]

Well motor ran strong other than gearing and paddle sizing . But my bike broke the tierod end so it ruined my weekend.