Shifting problems

[Balaz_73*00]

As most of you know I just finished up changing my shift shaft. I had a seperate thread going for that. Anyway, I rode last weekend and everyting seemed fine. No issues. I went out riding yesterday and I noticed I was having some trouble shifting out of 3rd into forth. I was having some trouble finding neutral too. I did noticed some oil was coming out of that vent hose on the right side of the motor. It looked kind of foamy. Ive had a honda 450 for about 5 years and never once had oil come out of there (always change oil the same way, so it wasnt over filled)

I wasn't to concerned about it, I got home cleaned everything up and changed the oil hoping thatd help. Putted around after and noticed my shifting was acting real weird. Mainly clicking down to first. I'm going to do my best to explain...so you know how sometimes if you sitting still in neutral when you click down, you either have to roll the bike a few inches or let the clutch out a hair before it actually clicks in gear. If you don't do that the shifter still moves down. Well the shifter was doing that after I rolled it and even after I got moving in first. It still had that down play. So, rolling in first I still had down play. The only way I could get it to actually stick down in first was hammering the gas and it seemed to stick in gear that way. I only did this a few times so I dono if it was a fluke or that would always do it.

Any ideas of whats happening or what happened? I can try to explain better if you guys dont understand what I mean. Just ask. Motor worked fine until this.

[DnB_racing]

is the oil still strange looking after you changed it?

oil that's contaminated with water or oxygenated from a reed sticking, will cause issues with the plates giving shifting problems

run it till hot and check your new oil for any bubbles or moisture or contamination

sounds possibly like your pressurizing the transmission oil

make sure your breather and vent tubes are positioned properly and not split and free of debris

if hoses are all good

and still foamy oil


then you either have a bad seal or reed

EDIT:::: I just read you said oil is coming from the tube on right.this tube is to let air in to breath oil shouldn't come out there, usually it comes out the tube on left..make sure its not pointing down...
if its positioned correctly then something is wrong like I mentioned above

[Balaz_73*00]

I did pressure wash the crap out of it during the week so maybe some water worked its way through one of the vent tubes. The funny thing is I used my bike on saturday as a pit bike putting around walnut. No issues. I'll double check all vents/hoses.

Oil didn't seem strange after changing it. Im not sure how to check for bubble/moisture on the tranny side. Motor side seemed fine, although it did look like the oil level went down from the start of the day to the end.

I don't understand pressurizing or a reed sticking?

Which hose are you talking about on the left (shifter) side? I dono if I was clear enough. I had oil coming out of the hose below the water pump, not the vent on the top of the cases.

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by Balaz_73*00
I did pressure wash the crap out of it during the week so maybe some water worked its way through one of the vent tubes. The funny thing is I used my bike on saturday as a pit bike putting around walnut. No issues. I'll double check all vents/hoses.

Oil didn't seem strange after changing it. Im not sure how to check for bubble/moisture on the tranny side. Motor side seemed fine, although it did look like the oil level went down from the start of the day to the end.

I don't understand pressurizing or a reed sticking?

Which hose are you talking about on the left (shifter) side? I dono if I was clear enough. I had oil coming out of the hose below the water pump, not the vent on the top of the cases. that's not good usually only coolant comes out the mechanical seal on the water pump.that means your mechanical seal and possibly an oil seal are bad... this would explain the foamy oil there is water and oil mixing

pull your clutch cover and see what's going on


oil shouldn't be coming out there unless a couple of things are bad

EDIT::: after thinking about it its probably Just the oil seal... the mechanical seal is for sealing the coolant and the oil seal is obviously for the oil... but either way just pull the clutch cover and inspect the seal. you should find the inside oil seal is not right

[Balaz_73*00]

You talking about 18?

[DnB_racing]

oil seal

[Balaz_73*00]

Well I didnt take it apart yet, but I messed around a little after work. I ran it for about 15 mins just idling. Went out to inspect. Motor side oil was fine, oil settled down to the same level it was at.

I did look at my overflow bottle and it was at the top of the upper fill line, more than I had filled. its also seemed rather dark (I run engine ice). It almost looks like oil got in the coolant. Is this possible and would that seal youre talking about cause this?

And does oil in the coolant also mean coolant could have made it in the clutch side oil? Causing my shifting issues?

[DnB_racing]

it could cause this,

open up the crank shaft end plug on the right clutch cover and check the tranny oil for coolant

[Balaz_73*00]

Sad that I havent rode this bike since I made this post....but I am getting ready for red bud now. SO it looks like to replaced the mechanical or oil seal you need to pull the water pump bearing out? is that correct or can i get to the oil seal from the outside?

[LeGaCyGiAnT124]

I am pretty sure you have to remove the bearing and the shaft. If I were you, I would replace the mechanical seal, oil seal, water pump shaft, and the bearing. I had this happen to my 05' after I rebuilt it two years ago. My coolant and oil were mixing causing my head gasket to blow. If you are already going to have the sidecase off, you might as well change all the water pump parts so you don't have to replace your sidecase gasket for a second time.

EDIT: Yes, you have to remove the bearing. The bearing is in the sidecase before you can get to the oil seal. It looks like this

(Mechanical Seal) | (Oil Seal) (Bearing)

The | simulates the sidecase.

[TheLane]

EDIT: he meant the oil reed.

One EASY way to tell is if you drain your oil and there is coolant at the top of it once it settles youve got a leak.

Kinda like pouring water in oil, it looks like that.

It honestly sounds like your tranny fluid was overfilled or even just old.

Fluids have additives just like normal oil and the additives break down over time, if the tranny isnt properly lubricated it can and will cause shifting problems and transmission failure.

However one thing to keep in mind, is that the engine oil and coolant is completely seperate from your transmission so if you have coolant in your engine oil that would not usually have an impact on your transmission.

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by TheLane
Btw to answer your reed question, He runs a 250r which is a 2 stroke. 4 strokes dont have reeds so disregard that but yes, it sounds like you could have coolant in your oil and vice versa.

One EASY way to tell is if you drain your oil and there is coolant at the top of it once it settles youve got a leak.

Kinda like pouring water in oil, it looks like that.

It honestly sounds like your tranny fluid was overfilled or even just old.

Fluids have additives just like normal oil and the additives break down over time, if the tranny isnt properly lubricated it can and will cause shifting problems and transmission failure.

However one thing to keep in mind, is that the engine oil and coolant is completely seperate from your transmission so if you have coolant in your engine oil that would not usually have an impact on your transmission. LMAO the 450r has an oil read valve

but if your talking about me owning a 2 stokes yes i do own several 2 stokes, as well as a handful of four strokes.... but I mostly work on 4 strokes in my shop, and have a good knowledge of the way they work and how to fix them...

and a sticking oil reed valve can cause exsess pressure in the crankcase, and can cause seal issues

[TheLane]

Originally posted by DnB_racing
the 450r has an oil read valve


Ah! still shouldnt effect the shifting.

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by TheLane
Ah! still shouldnt effect the shifting. when the reed sticks or is pluged up with old metal particals from a bad bearing or such,

sometimes it will build up pressure and blow the oil seal, causing the tranny fluid and crank fluid to mix and cause sever shifting problems,

the thing that happen is the bad seal can fill the crank with both oils and empties the tranny


and can cause gasket problems as well,

but for his original problem Im still leaning towards an oil seal on the water pump letting the coolant and tranny oil to mix and is causing his shifting issues,

and as stated previously replace the mec seal and oil seal at the same time, to avoid a future problem

[TheLane]

Originally posted by DnB_racing
when the reed sticks or is pluged up with old metal particals from a bad bearing or such,

sometimes it will build up pressure and blow the oil seal, causing the tranny fluid and crank fluid to mix and cause sever shifting problems,

the thing that happen is the bad seal can fill the crank with both oils and empties the tranny


and can cause gasket problems as well,

but for his original problem Im still leaning towards an oil seal on the water pump letting the coolant and tranny oil to mix and is causing his shifting issues,

and as stated previously replace the mec seal and oil seal at the same time, to avoid a future problem

Hm, i see, I didnt realize the hondas were set up like that to where the coolant could even get into the part of the case with the tranny....Ill have to take another look at that diagram. If there is coolant in tranny fluid and vice versa that could really screw things up naturally.

I think its time he drained his tranny fluid to see if its contaminated. That would be step one for me.

[Balaz_73*00]

Alright thanks guys, ill get the mechanical and oil seal and prob order the bearing too. I have some fresh clutch plates ill throw in too

[Rich250RRacer]

Originally posted by DnB_racing
LMAO the 450r has an oil read valve

but if your talking about me owning a 2 stokes yes i do own several 2 stokes, as well as a handful of four strokes.... but I mostly work on 4 strokes in my shop, and have a good knowledge of the way they work and how to fix them...

and a sticking oil reed valve can cause exsess pressure in the crankcase, and can cause seal issues

Off the subject but let's see who knows bikes and can figure this one out. What four-stroke bike had an actual set of reeds (just like a two-stroke)? You should see the look on a parts guy's face when you ask for a set of replacement reeds.

Hint: It's not a street bike.

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by Rich250RRacer
Off the subject but let's see who knows bikes and can figure this one out. What four-stroke bike had an actual set of reeds (just like a two-stroke)? You should see the look on a parts guy's face when you ask for a set of replacement reeds.

Hint: It's not a street bike. XR500