Joe Byrd DQ'd?

[ryan243]

Just curious as to what happened. Didn't give much info in the race report

[Wired]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znIXU3lJWuc


HAHA i love on the second time he even takes time to spot Brown's rear tire then completely take him out.

[blaster12s]

that...ugh...im speachless...he isnt fast anymore he is just out there to hurt people.

[FHKracingZ]

Joe byrd is an idiot. I asked him why he got DQ'd during the 2nd moto when he was watching from the fence and he said harve was on a power trip. he also threw a huge ***** fit after the races and got fined $3,500.

He wonders why nobody likes him. Lets turn right coming into a left handed turn like nobody will see it, real smooth byrd

[C41Xracer]

what an idiot

[mysterybike]

You guys make me laugh.

[etccb]

Dirty Bird at it again. Same old crap.

[madskrillz2]

Originally posted by mysterybike
You guys make me laugh.

Why? Are you someone that attended one of his riding schools and that's what he taught you? lol

[smr]

Joe Byrd started racing in this area about the same time I did..yes that was a long time ago. I met him at a MX track called Chandlers Chapel. Most of his competitors didn't like him then and it doesn't look like much has changed.

[ryan243]

He's such a bad role model. All these kids that look up to these guys and he has to act like that. Idiot

[rollie]

Thomas brown should receive that $3,500 as an award for landing on his feet when byrd took him out, what a badass

[hontrx265r]

what a sick landing, like jumping off the bull after a clean 8 sec... Extremely impressive Brown holding it together and not loosing his temper. Looked like that blue was pulling hard too..

[slightlybent47]

I can’t say anything about Byrd, never met him. It does seem like every sport has a bad boy or someone everyone loves to hate.
As for the hole shot crash, it looks like Brown tried to cut inside and didn’t have clearance.
The second incident, it looks like Brown was passing and forced Byrd against the burm and Byrd stayed his ground.
Just looks like aggressive racing to me. I think there both at fault.

[atvfrk10]

How do you force someone into a burm when you're on the side with the burm? Did he pull Bryd into him..

[slightlybent47]

It’s hard to say really since I can’t tell if the corner is a left or right. It’s hard to tell from that angle. The hole shot crash was Brown trying to go under and banking the corner instead of going over the hump like everyone else. I’m not saying it’s a bad move, just a case of two riders wanting the same spot at the same time.

[atvfrk10]

I don't disagree that the first accident was... well... an accident. But the second "accident", Joe Bryd had the inside on a left turn, he looked to the right (which you dont do if you're turning right), and turned the bars to the right... It's intentional!

[D Bergstrom]

Originally posted by slightlybent47
As for the hole shot crash, it looks like Brown tried to cut inside and didn’t have clearance.
The second incident, it looks like Brown was passing and forced Byrd against the burm and Byrd stayed his ground.
Just looks like aggressive racing to me. I think there both at fault.

I agree with you. Start crash, looks like both were going for a space that wasn't wide enough for two quads, that always ends in a crash. Second one, Brown tried to cut in front of him and wasn't clear, Byrd didn't back off (most other racers wouldn't either, especially when your adrenline is pumping from an earlier crash with the same guy.) and ended up running into him.

So Byrd was DQ'ed for that? I didn't see anything dirty, just plain aggressive riding from both of them, just happened to end bad both times.

Doug

[beastlywarrior]

Na i saw him turn to the right

[D Bergstrom]

Originally posted by atvfrk10
I don't disagree that the first accident was... well... an accident. But the second "accident", Joe Bryd had the inside on a left turn, he looked to the right (which you dont do if you're turning right), and turned the bars to the right... It's intentional!

Just went and watched it again. Looks to me at the second incident, Brown came over and smacked Byrd's front tire, running Byrd off the track, Byrd then got a bit of a speed wobble and was trying to correct and stay on the track and Brown was still there.

Hard to tell from the angle, but that is what it looked like to me. Not really a fan of ATV MX, so not playing favorites, but that is what the racer in me saw.

Doug

[tjsdaname]

I hate byrd..... I can't stand him lol...

but I don't think that it was just byrds fault... if you watch it frame by frame his bars don't turn right until brown's back tire hits birds front....
you can also see that byrd was off the track... he was turning to the right to get back on.... imo both riders are caused this not just byrd....

but this is just plain dirty....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-JpxrC3gGg

[hontrx265r]

The byrd bar turn take out is kind of looking signiture from the videos.

[300ex_#387]

Originally posted by D Bergstrom
Just went and watched it again. Looks to me at the second incident, Brown came over and smacked Byrd's front tire, running Byrd off the track, Byrd then got a bit of a speed wobble and was trying to correct and stay on the track and Brown was still there.

Hard to tell from the angle, but that is what it looked like to me. Not really a fan of ATV MX, so not playing favorites, but that is what the racer in me saw.

Doug

You have quite the imagination.

[Pappy]

T. Brown is one of the most enjoyable riders we have in our sport. If he would have gotten hurt due to this, I do believe Byrd would not have left on his feet.

Damn shame something like this occurs. I hope the issue is dealt with so that it never happens again, just no call for it period no matter who is involved.

[etccb]

Originally posted by hontrx265r
The byrd bar turn take out is kind of looking signiture from the videos.

I agree, it's the exact same move. Does he teach this at his school?

[rageatvsupermom]

It is a miracle Thomas did not get hurt. The first turn was two racers trying to take the same line and with all the breaking bumps and hitting brakes that rearends got a little crazy, it happens. The next accident Thomas did not hit Byrds front tire until Byrd turned his handle bars into Thomas's rear tire. Thomas made a clean pass close but clean.
Byrd has been doing stuff like this for years and getting away with it, it is about time someone did the right thing. The year he smacked josh Creamer in the helmet he should have been disqualified then but for some odd reason he was not.

We do not need this kind of stuff going on, this is not MMA or wrestling. Leave the unnessary contact for true contact sports. Very proud of Thomas and how he handled the situation. He then used his anger and held on to first for most of the second moto.

[D Bergstrom]

Originally posted by 300ex_#387
You have quite the imagination.

Not really, with the limited view, that is what I saw. have had a few speed wobbles in my day and have seen my bars do the exact same thing when getting to close to a berm.

Of course, as I said, don't watch much ATV MX, so if this has happened many times before, (Byrd turning into someone rear tires) my guess is he did do it on purpose. In that case, DQ and fine deserved.

Doug

[adrenalinjunky]

After watching this video and seeing some of his other "track rage" incidents, I have concluded Joe Byrd is a piece of trash and should be disqualified indefinetly. That tool box is going to hurt someone if he continues. Shame on you Joe Byrd. Park the quad and let the pros race.

[ryan243]

the way Byrd looks at Brown after the first crash is evidence enough that he took him out on purpose in the second one. That is no speed wobble, his bars turned completely to the right and there was no effort to turn back, he just held it to the right. He's a disgrace to our sport, and I hope he reads these things. It's pretty bad when pretty much no one respects or likes you, its one thing to be like Chad Reed or Stewart and have people not like you, but when an entire industry dislikes you....come on

[etccb]

Exact same take out move to both Brown and Natalie a few years ago. SAME DIRTY MOVE!
Dirty move Dirty Byrd, just go away.

[SRH]

i dont think you can even call this a racing accident...he didnt run him a little high or throw a block pass ....he slowed , waited for brown and took him out



brown is the man for keeping his cool and just getting back on the track


i dont like byrd....

[chronicsmoke]

Originally posted by rollie
Thomas brown should receive that $3,500 as an award for landing on his feet when byrd took him out, what a badass

I agree.. that was a badass-but-gracefull dismount

[madskrillz2]

I think it's funny that not one person from the "Joe Byrd is back" thread has stated their opinion yet

[slightlybent47]

I just can’t tell from the video, but there are officials on the track and if that’s the way they saw it then he deserves the fine. I have met Brown a few times and he has been very nice every time.
Thomas walked up to my camp and introduced himself one time and he spent an hour just getting to know everyone and was nice as can be. I can’t say anything about Byrd, I’ve never met him.

[Ellingsoc26]

One thing everyone is forgetting is that after this Thomas was hauling ***! He got all the way up to 7th and i was standing at the end of the woops and he was hands down the fastest one in them!

[Kovatch]

Originally posted by Ellingsoc26
One thing everyone is forgetting is that after this Thomas was hauling ***! He got all the way up to 7th and i was standing at the end of the woops and he was hands down the fastest one in them!

His lap times were on par with Wienen, who was sub 1m:38s!!

[rf928]

I can say, no longer do I have any intrest in Byrd's school. That was plain dirty.

Brown must have been hauling... I can say if he runs that pace every race Yamaha has got it in the bag :)

[TheLane]

Byrds a ****ing douchebag and needs the **** beat out of him. IE : here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0d8SajjSCw&feature=related

[ryan243]

Haha genius, hit someone in the helmet.

[madskrillz2]

I still watch that video and wonder how the hell Creamer kept his cool. If somebody hits me in the face it's like instincts just kick in lol. I love how Byrd went all Monster Truck on those hay bales at the end. What an idiot.

[ben300]

Originally posted by madskrillz2
I still watch that video and wonder how the hell Creamer kept his cool. If somebody hits me in the face it's like instincts just kick in lol. I love how Byrd went all Monster Truck on those hay bales at the end. What an idiot.

ive noticed a couple times now in vidoes of bird wrecking someon where he's at fault and they et tangled up, the other guy alwasy gets away, and he's always crashing into hay bales and what not....karma

[SRH]

Originally posted by slightlybent47
I just can’t tell from the video, but there are officials on the track and if that’s the way they saw it then he deserves the fine. I have met Brown a few times and he has been very nice every time.
Thomas walked up to my camp and introduced himself one time and he spent an hour just getting to know everyone and was nice as can be. I can’t say anything about Byrd, I’ve never met him.

oh come on, byrd runs a precision damper, watch his bars when he gets by browns back wheel, intentional

[TheLane]

Originally posted by SRH
oh come on, byrd runs a precision damper, watch his bars when he gets by browns back wheel, intentional


X2, Byrds a douche.

[slightlybent47]

Originally posted by SRH
oh come on, byrd runs a precision damper, watch his bars when he gets by browns back wheel, intentional

What does a dampener have to do with it? There’s no way anyone can tell from the angle of that vid if he did it intentionally or not. It does look like Byrd is up against a berm and turned into Brown to keep from getting pushed over it. It kinda looks like Brown tries a block pass and Byrd didn’t give way.But it’s a bad angle so I’m just guessing.

[madskrillz2]

Originally posted by slightlybent47
What does a dampener have to do with it? There’s no way anyone can tell from the angle of that vid if he did it intentionally or not. It does look like Byrd is up against a berm and turned into Brown to keep from getting pushed over it. It kinda looks like Brown tries a block pass and Byrd didn’t give way.But it’s a bad angle so I’m just guessing.

I dunno? Maybe because if they really "collided" he wouldn't look so calculated and in control right here. Looks pretty deliberate to me but you be the judge.
http://s7.postimage.org/613o3easa/byrd.jpg

[ryan243]

How do you perform a block pass from the outside?

[Ichoptop]

"If you can't win, wreck someone who can" - RC

[extremeblastr]

Originally posted by slightlybent47
What does a dampener have to do with it? There’s no way anyone can tell from the angle of that vid if he did it intentionally or not. It does look like Byrd is up against a berm and turned into Brown to keep from getting pushed over it. It kinda looks like Brown tries a block pass and Byrd didn’t give way.But it’s a bad angle so I’m just guessing.

you have stated multiple times you don't know mx racing from golf so just leave it alone. byrd is known around the racing community as a dirty rider and has lost his temper many times in the past. believe those of us that know the mx side of this sport when we say that was an intentional incident and you can openly tell in the video. besides how could byrd be turning back on to the track over a berm when they are starting to turn left?......

[TWISTED]

Originally posted by Pappy
T. Brown is one of the most enjoyable riders we have in our sport. If he would have gotten hurt due to this, I do believe Byrd would not have left on his feet.

Damn shame something like this occurs. I hope the issue is dealt with so that it never happens again, just no call for it period no matter who is involved.


Well put............ Byrd is a DOUCHE!!!!!!!!!!! He proves it time and time again........................

[slightlybent47]

Originally posted by extremeblastr
you have stated multiple times you don't know mx racing from golf so just leave it alone. byrd is known around the racing community as a dirty rider and has lost his temper many times in the past. believe those of us that know the mx side of this sport when we say that was an intentional incident and you can openly tell in the video. besides how could byrd be turning back on to the track over a berm when they are starting to turn left?......

Where did I ever say I don’t know mx racing? Find it and quote me. All I said was I can’t tell from the video. I never defended Byrd or Brown. If I was a juror in a court of law I could not convict based on just that video.
The op asked to decide on that video and not Byrds past.

[SRH]

Originally posted by slightlybent47
What does a dampener have to do with it? There’s no way anyone can tell from the angle of that vid if he did it intentionally or not. It does look like Byrd is up against a berm and turned into Brown to keep from getting pushed over it. It kinda looks like Brown tries a block pass and Byrd didn’t give way.But it’s a bad angle so I’m just guessing.

you cant get that big of a motion out of the bars with one of those dampers unless its intentional

[slightlybent47]

Ok so on the second incident are they going into a right corner or a left? When they come to a stop are they on the outside of the berm off the track or are they on the track?

[Balaz_73*00]

Thats a left turn, it had two lines. Brown was setup for outside, bryd inside. Clearly intentional considering that fact

[finsteratv]

Looked like Byrd spotted his target and took a shot to wreck him..Dirty Byrd racing in my opinion..Rubbin' is Racin' but thats just a load of SHI*!

[slightlybent47]

Obviously an official got a good look at what happened and determined that Byrd took Brown out and that’s why he was fined. I don’t dispute Byrds reputation for riding dirty. Obviously a lot of people feel that way and I’m sure there is a reason for that. I’m also sure Byrd is not the only one that has done such things. This sport is dangerous enough as it is, there’s no place for it, in my opinion.

[dxcody]

Idk, Looked to me like Bryd got a wobble because if you look he turns his bars left, looks right, then jerks his bars back right (possible attemp to correct) and who knows, maybe he thought that he had cleared thomas already when he cut back.

I dont really care if he was in the right, or if he was in the wrong.

Everyone has a right to their own opinion and its just one of those things that will cause a despute but either way, its done, its over, case settled.

Im not a MX guy, but i do like Upperman most... because he is BW's brother in law. :cool:

[extremeblastr]

i swear to god i wish i had a super power and i wish that super power was to reach through the computer and smack stupid people. how many of you honestly believe that someone who rides at the level of byrd and tbrown get speed wobbles? these guys spend countless hours on setups to guarantee things like that don't happen to them and that precision stabilizer is the icing on the cake. every bit of byrds body language and the track layout points to this incident being 100% intentional. in the first crash they wreck because they are racing for the same spot and **** happens thats just how the holeshot goes in this instance brown was clearly making the pass and had taken that lane away from byrd so regardless of what was happening joe had no right to turn into him he should've grabbed some brake and taken it like a man.

[madskrillz2]

Originally posted by extremeblastr
i swear to god i wish i had a super power and i wish that super power was to reach through the computer and smack stupid people. how many of you honestly believe that someone who rides at the level of byrd and tbrown get speed wobbles? these guys spend countless hours on setups to guarantee things like that don't happen to them and that precision stabilizer is the icing on the cake. every bit of byrds body language and the track layout points to this incident being 100% intentional. in the first crash they wreck because they are racing for the same spot and **** happens thats just how the holeshot goes in this instance brown was clearly making the pass and had taken that lane away from byrd so regardless of what was happening joe had no right to turn into him he should've grabbed some brake and taken it like a man.

Can't tell you how often I wish I could do the same thing. Just a nice stiff back hand. Where the hell is speed wobble coming from anyway? Is it even possible to get speed wobble on a quad? I know I've never experienced anything like that on one.

[slightlybent47]

I’ve never experienced a speed wobble on a quad. I have ridden a few that got a little squarely at top speed but never a speed wobble. I’m sure the pro riders have the best in suspension set ups so I’m sure that’s not the case for Byrd or any other pro rider for that mater. Only the Byrd knows for sure! lol

[Wired]

Speed wobble, definitely a speed wobble...

How does one backhand through a computer screen, please teach me how

[madskrillz2]

Originally posted by Wired
Speed wobble, definitely a speed wobble...

How does one backhand through a computer screen, please teach me how

Lmao you just have to close your eyes and see it happening.

[mxpimp2000]

Look at all the joe byrd riding school fans hahahahaha theres no way in hell it was accident esp 3 turns before they got tangled up in the holeshot which those happen 99% of every race. byrd is dirty get over it byrd fans

[dxcody]

:D

I love when everyone gets all fired up .

Like i said, idk what happened. Nor do i care, but anything can happen, and its over now.

INTERNET RAGE FTW! ;)

[madskrillz2]

Originally posted by dxcody
:D

I love when everyone gets all fired up .

Like i said, idk what happened. Nor do i care, but anything can happen, and its over now.

INTERNET RAGE FTW! ;)

You don't care? Well why the hell did you reply?

[Wired]

Every time i hear Byrd's name brought up in a conversation that's very rare!

http://i.imgur.com/xMWs8.gif

[dxcody]

Originally posted by madskrillz2
You don't care? Well why the hell did you reply?

Because i was tired of everyone bickering.

I posted in my original post that i didnt care. I dont like Joe Bryd, I dont dislike him either.

Its an open forum and i gave my opinion.

I stated in my first post that everyone just wants to argue.

Now i get bashed for my opinion, in which you guys read part of it, and started raging clearly before you read the end of it.

I said, "I DONT KNOW"

I wasnt saying he was guilty, i wasnt saying he wasnt.

I was just trying to give an unbiased opinion, as i felt it was much needed.

So Sorry for posting.

[madskrillz2]

Originally posted by dxcody
Because i was tired of everyone bickering.

I posted in my original post that i didnt care. I dont like Joe Bryd, I dont dislike him either.

Its an open forum and i gave my opinion.

I stated in my first post that everyone just wants to argue.

Now i get bashed for my opinion, in which you guys read part of it, and started raging clearly before you read the end of it.

I said, "I DONT KNOW"

I wasnt saying he was guilty, i wasnt saying he wasnt.

I was just trying to give an unbiased opinion, as i felt it was much needed.

So Sorry for posting.

Apparently you care enough to keep replying. At what point did I "rage"? I just thought it was hilarious you would call that a "speed wobble".

[01boneless]

Hey guys have you heard? oh well i was under the asumption that everones heard.....
A-well the bird- bird b-bird's the word a-well the bird bird bird the bird is the word well havent you heard about joe bird? well Im gonna tell u about dirty bird A-well the bird bird b-bird the word well the dirty bird bird is the word.

[KingpinsEx]

First of all madskrillz2 u need to chill out. If I was just juding from this forum I would say you were the one Byrd took out. And yes I was one who posted in the "Byrd is back" forum. The reason I have not responded is I don't get on here every day to gossip like you do apparently. As for that other tread, I thought it was great to see someone other than the usual top 5 battling for a lead, what racer doesn't like that? I'm not a huge Byrd fan, but I'm not jumping on the dirty byrd band wagon like you are either. After watching that video, I would say both wrecks looked like Byrds fault. T Brown had the inside line on the start and it looked like Byrd turned right into the side of him and its not like they were battling for the holeshot. The second incident looks obvious and he should be penalized. However, it is difficult to say with certainty from that angle. With saying that you don't need to come on here and bash everyone who has an opinion different than yours, thats the point of a forum. Grow up.

[dxcody]

Originally posted by madskrillz2
Apparently you care enough to keep replying. At what point did I "rage"? I just thought it was hilarious you would call that a "speed wobble".

Lol another funny thing. But i never called it a "Speed Wobble" You guys made that up in your heads.

I said he WOBBLED.. Which I meant by, Hittin a small bump at high speeds and kicks one side/end of the quad up.

Done here.

Just wanted to show you that you guys bash on anyone with an oposing theory.

[extremeblastr]

Originally posted by dxcody
Lol another funny thing. But i never called it a "Speed Wobble" You guys made that up in your heads.

I said he WOBBLED.. Which I meant by, Hittin a small bump at high speeds and kicks one side/end of the quad up.

Done here.

Just wanted to show you that you guys bash on anyone with an oposing theory.


so like a braking bump? or a kicker? it becomes more and more obvious as i read the replies on this thread how many of you have never raced in or been a part of a series that has anything remotely close to a competitive level of riders....

[madskrillz2]

Originally posted by KingpinsEx
First of all madskrillz2 u need to chill out. If I was just juding from this forum I would say you were the one Byrd took out. And yes I was one who posted in the "Byrd is back" forum. The reason I have not responded is I don't get on here every day to gossip like you do apparently. As for that other tread, I thought it was great to see someone other than the usual top 5 battling for a lead, what racer doesn't like that? I'm not a huge Byrd fan, but I'm not jumping on the dirty byrd band wagon like you are either. After watching that video, I would say both wrecks looked like Byrds fault. T Brown had the inside line on the start and it looked like Byrd turned right into the side of him and its not like they were battling for the holeshot. The second incident looks obvious and he should be penalized. However, it is difficult to say with certainty from that angle. With saying that you don't need to come on here and bash everyone who has an opinion different than yours, thats the point of a forum. Grow up.

I'm not bashing anyone. I just think it's hilarious how you could call that anything other than a take out. I'm not jumping on any "bandwagon" either. I haven't liked the guy since I got into the mx scene and it's pretty obvious I'm not the only one. There's no bandwagon about it. He's just a dirty rider.

[madskrillz2]

Originally posted by dxcody
Lol another funny thing. But i never called it a "Speed Wobble" You guys made that up in your heads.

I said he WOBBLED.. Which I meant by, Hittin a small bump at high speeds and kicks one side/end of the quad up.

Done here.

Just wanted to show you that you guys bash on anyone with an oposing theory.

I'll give you that. I guess I misread that. Regardless it still doesn't look like anything other than him turning into Brown. And no I don't bash on anyone with an opposing theory. I bash on people with really dumb theories.

[atvfrk10]

Originally posted by dxcody
Lol another funny thing. But i never called it a "Speed Wobble" You guys made that up in your heads.

I said he WOBBLED.. Which I meant by, Hittin a small bump at high speeds and kicks one side/end of the quad up.

Done here.

Just wanted to show you that you guys bash on anyone with an oposing theory.

Not to bash you or anything but you just said that he wobbled... at high speeds. Wouldn't that imply a "speed wobble"

[Baracudaaa]

Serious, speed wobble on a quad, who the hell started that????????

Maybe if they were racing on skate boards, down a steep hill.

Byrd, pay up sucka, quit crying like a beyotch, you got caught!!!!

[reconmaster]

no suprise byrd pulled a stunt like nice landing by thomas for sure! glad to see he kept his cool. I can say this THomas has helped me out multiple times when I was at Redbud and Unadilla and we chat about training racing still to the this day mind you I do wheelchair racing not quad (just sold the yfz). Byrd on the other hand when I wheeled by him wouldn't say a single word to me at redbud and dilla while the rest of the pro field did. Thomas is haulin and well Byrd needs to retire.

[LTZBusa]

well,
unfortunately for thomas brown, he is just the next victim in the long list of riders on dirty byrd's hit list. look at the crash that he took out natilie and then compare the sudden turning of the bars in the race with brown. you'll notice that he turns his bars all the way to "bump" the rear tire of who ever is next to him that his has a ***** fit about. and the 3 shots I have seen, its exactly the same movement just as the rear tire comes in line with his front.

[madskrillz2]

Originally posted by reconmaster
no suprise byrd pulled a stunt like nice landing by thomas for sure! glad to see he kept his cool. I can say this THomas has helped me out multiple times when I was at Redbud and Unadilla and we chat about training racing still to the this day mind you I do wheelchair racing not quad (just sold the yfz). Byrd on the other hand when I wheeled by him wouldn't say a single word to me at redbud and dilla while the rest of the pro field did. Thomas is haulin and well Byrd needs to retire.

How's that going? I forgot you got rid of the quad to pursue that kind of racing.

[reconmaster]

I got rid of the yfz to pay some serious debts if I didn't have those still would be riding. Its going well. Currently ranked 3rd in Canada for 100m, 200m and 400m in t53 classification and I figured out yesterday according to IPC world rankings once I do my next race that Internationally classified I would be 34th in the world in 100m and in the 40s in the 200m and 400m. Not bad eh. I just took 5 days off to recover and to rest after training for 10-12 straight weeks with only two days of rest a week.
I have Canadian Championships coming up at the end of June for atleast the 100m Trying to nail my 200m down to qualify in time. Im hoping to race the US paralympic championships next year

[slightlybent47]

Browns fb sais it all.lol Funny stuff!

[jkiserracing]

Well......where was Byrd at Kentucky this weekend? Did he even race?

[slightlybent47]

I heard he had a DNF in the first and a DNS in the seconed,

[madskrillz2]

Karma is a *****